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[Theorycrafting] Sage Heal Stats


Nibbon

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Forgive me for ignoring the bickering idiots (SuperGrunt), I'm trying to get back on topic.

 

Out of all 3 of my healers (Scoundrel, Sorc, Commando), The Sorc/Sage definitely gets the short end of the stick when it comes to natural Crit from skills and buffs. However, going pure power on my sage I find it much more reliable when it comes to raid heals.

 

You're putting out so many separate heals from salvation, rejuvenate, etc, that power is always going to end up doing more HPS anyway, especially from the unlimited ticks on salvation.

 

Maybe in the future tier of gear, it will be worthwhile to go Crit, but as far as Kell Dragon gear goes you're still getting more from power. By doing the math on the curves I'd figure somewhere between 71 and 82 from a mod would begin showing a favor towards Crit rating.

 

Think about your stats from what they were in Rakata Gear, it'l eventually level out.

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Forgive me for ignoring the bickering idiots (SuperGrunt), I'm trying to get back on topic.

 

Out of all 3 of my healers (Scoundrel, Sorc, Commando), The Sorc/Sage definitely gets the short end of the stick when it comes to natural Crit from skills and buffs. However, going pure power on my sage I find it much more reliable when it comes to raid heals.

 

You're putting out so many separate heals from salvation, rejuvenate, etc, that power is always going to end up doing more HPS anyway, especially from the unlimited ticks on salvation.

 

Maybe in the future tier of gear, it will be worthwhile to go Crit, but as far as Kell Dragon gear goes you're still getting more from power. By doing the math on the curves I'd figure somewhere between 71 and 82 from a mod would begin showing a favor towards Crit rating.

 

Think about your stats from what they were in Rakata Gear, it'l eventually level out.

 

They definitely benefit the most from power out of the three, or rather benefit the least from critical. Commando/Merc and Scoundrel/Operative both get boosts to surge, while the Sorc/Sage gets a boost to bonus healing. Not to mention innervate states "Heals for X 4 times" and each point of power increases each of those 4 ticks by the amount that other classes usually only get counted once, Static Barrier can't crit, and resurgance counts I believe ~2.5x as much as normal. Crit is definitely still "viable" in any end game content, but won't be the difference maker in force management, and whether RNG favors crit is up to RNG. The power will come out on top I think in FPs or 8 man Ops it will last much longer. Crit boosts revivification/overload much more than innervate/resurgance from my understanding, and it will take a lot before crit will help your ability to single target heal.

 

Even in later gear tiers I foresee it coming down to "How many people are you hitting with your AOE" and "How much of that is actual heals as opposed to overheals". Since your single target healing will favor power for much much longer, I foresee power just being the way to go. Even in NMM your AOE will more often than not result in over heals on some of the DPS it hits.

Edited by campbellsoup
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You clearly have not been following the convo because I have not once stated how I heal, what my priorities/rotation or what ever you desire to call it are.

 

You are the first to mention rotation, nowhere was this word to be found in the post you quoted. You have made your "priority" of having 30% crit VERY clear.

 

Also

 

“If one person tells you you're a horse, they are crazy. If three people tell you you're a horse, there's conspiracy afoot. If ten people tell you you're a horse, it's time to buy a saddle”

Edited by Darth_Dreselus
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I run a sorc dps as my main raider.. I am in all 168 aug-willpower I run Madness spec... I am seeing on Torparse number from 2600-3k on the ops dummy, yet when I parse Im hitting around 22-2300.. Anyone offer any suggestions on what I may be doing wrong... see this parse.. go to the last 2 time entries for the ops dummy run.. http://www.torparse.com/a/365053

My rotation is AF-DF-CT-FL then LS when it procs.. Any help or advice would be great

 

Draaconiss

The Shadowlands

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Why is the gear we get from commendation vendors so far off from what we actually need?

I'm pretty annoyed right now seeing how far off I am from a proper build since I spent my comms and tokens on "healer" armor.

 

Has a dev ever been asked or explained why this is?

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Why is the gear we get from commendation vendors so far off from what we actually need?

I'm pretty annoyed right now seeing how far off I am from a proper build since I spent my comms and tokens on "healer" armor.

 

Has a dev ever been asked or explained why this is?

 

I would have guessed it is so you can't outright buy BiS gear without raiding the same way that since 2.0 BiS gear cannot be crafted.

 

For comms it is very much, belt/brace armourings, 1 non piece armouring, all mods and OH armouring. Hilt, enhancements and the 4 set bonus armourings have to be gained by raiding. The situation is even worse for tanks, because they can only buy the low mitigation/high endurance mods with comms.

 

EDIT: you can now buy a MH from CZ-198 for 350 Elites with the friend standing, it is 69s though.

 

Earpiece/Implant can also be purchased and while it is generally an upgrade, the token version is better.

Edited by Darth_Dreselus
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Why is the gear we get from commendation vendors so far off from what we actually need?

I'm pretty annoyed right now seeing how far off I am from a proper build since I spent my comms and tokens on "healer" armor.

 

Has a dev ever been asked or explained why this is?

 

You will still need to do a lot of mixing and matching, but comms gear vs underworld is only a percentage or two difference from max potential.

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Thanks for the reply.

 

You said you preferred willpower augments over power. What's your reason for that? I'm curious because there has been times where some geared similar to me but a lower rating and there heals seem significantly better. The only difference is that they have full power augments and I have willpower. I couldn't really tell how their healing was overall without actually being in their shoes. Salvation seemed to tick for 50 more base health and deliverance was about 1k stronger

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Thanks for the reply.

 

You said you preferred willpower augments over power. What's your reason for that? I'm curious because there has been times where some geared similar to me but a lower rating and there heals seem significantly better. The only difference is that they have full power augments and I have willpower. I couldn't really tell how their healing was overall without actually being in their shoes. Salvation seemed to tick for 50 more base health and deliverance was about 1k stronger

 

They will heal for slightly more and you will crit slightly more often. With the buffs to willpower that you get (total of 11%) the difference in plus to healing is comparable and the bonus to crit % is big enough to make a difference.

 

Going back to the comms gear - they typically have the imbalanced stats gear - where you have more endurance and are losing out on secondary stat - that could be the bigger difference in bonus healing.

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I haven't seen anyone argue the point here in Nibbon's thread or in Orderken's compendium so I'm going to. While I agree with the Math they both do to arrive at what they are calling the BiS gear for healing Sage/Sorc, I do not agree in actuality that it is BiS. Stealing a saying from my guildie Fenrir/Hippolyta, "Dps is a science, Healing is an art, Tanking is strategy." What I mean by this is they can all analyze numbers from spreadsheets and whatnot, but only dps can be the most trusted.

 

Healing is an art... you can run all the numbers you want in whatever spreadsheet, but it's all going to be based on constant casting and standing still, which is not at all how the actual healing goes in fights. Every boss pull is different. Sometimes dps will do a great job of avoiding dmg they can avoid and sometimes they won't. Sometimes tanks will take spiky dmg and sometimes they won't. Sometimes tanks and dps will take this dmg at the same time and sometimes they won't. Sometimes the tanks will stay close to full hp for a short while and the raid won't be taking dmg or significant dmg. You get the point.

 

So I think we can agree that you are not healing every single second of the fight. You are not constantly standing still. You might even be adding in a little extra dmg if the fight and force management allows for it. During periods of intense dmg it would actually be beneficial to have a burst in healing, something that crit helps make possible in a small time frame as opposed to over the entire fight. So yes I'm saying the numbers and the belief of having 0 crit rating is wrong and not BiS as far as a healer painting the best masterpiece they can since healing is art and not science. So in my opinion based on hours of raiding, when you're buffed and stimmed you want your crit to be about 30%, which is just shy of 300 crit rating. You then went surge to be at the soft cap of 450 rating. The rest you dump into alacrity because while it's certainly useful, it's importance is over-stated and the spreadsheet is more of an artificial intelligence healer, unable to account for the variability that is damage taken and thus healing done.

 

Consider this situation: Tank is taking huge hits like NiM DG, NiM Kephess, and NiM TFB. Tank is real low like 5-8k hp. The 0 crit all power heal lands and doesn't crit. My build with crit lands and doesn't crit. Ok I'll guess your heal does 600 more healing and lands on the tank for @7k. However I will have about 4-5% more chance for my heal to crit and if it does it will heal for @10k. That could easily make the difference in that tank dying or living. So...

 

My current stats buffed, stimed, willpower augments, and all the willpower datacrons and +10 datacron:

1135.2 Bonus Healing

30.12% Crit Chance (291 crit rating)

73.36% Crit Multiplier (488 crit rating)

8.5 Force Regen Rate (330 alacrity rating)

6.51% Alacrity (330 alacrity rating)

 

Current gear is min 72's.

(75) Ear

1 (75) Implant

(75) armoring in Boots and Bracers

2 (75) Mods

2 (75) Enhancements

 

I would have to disagree with your over all statement, but I am not calling you wrong by any means.

 

As the op claimed his hps scale is a very generic and general spreadsheet, nothing can take into account for the raid having to move, dps being lazy or other random generated situations. However, it does show what your HPS should be if you stand still with minimal movement. The hps number of his spread sheet will be the same regardless of the raids damage intake. Why? Because the raid taking damage or not has nothing to do with your ability to produce HPS.

 

As far as your statement about crits, even if you had 90% crit chance, there is that 10% chance you won't crit. Not to mention when your heals do crit they crit hard, but gearing for so much crit for it to be viable would cost you so much in other stats which makes crit less of a priority because it is making your non crits less effective.

 

Also the op said he isn't a healer and is trying to help the community, its nice of you to argue but your arguments are flawed. You called it "artificial intelligence healing" when it should be more " Theoretical Healing" . Even more so if you are really going to argue with his assessment then maybe you should give us the proof to back that up. During your next 10 raids log the parses, take note of the tank damage, and the raid damage, along with your HPS ( keep in mind HPS is heals per a second which inculdes over healing, if you want a number that is closer to accurate then take note of your effective healing ) then locate the average of each section. The point of an average is to find and allow for a closer to accurate spread sheet.

 

Lastly you named negative influences in the raid which could have an impact on your healing, but failed to mention the use of medpacs, which the raid should be using to help the healers out. This alone will effect your Effective healing.

 

As far as the OP's original post the only part I disagree with is the use of salvation, I don't use it on cool down its pointless. Yeah I do understand it can heal the tank, but at that instant you have other abilities which can do this more effectively. Typically your salvation won't hit 8 people for every tick. I will admit there are times when salvation is extremely useful.

 

As far as force armor goes, I use it on cool down. Its a preemptive heal more or less. Normally I work out with other sages, which groups or people I will make sure to use it. Also force armor being used on cool down on the main tank is a heal without numbers, unless you can calculate how much damage you are reducing due to the buff force armor gives. At the end of the encounter I would imagine the minimal mitigation offered from this buff would be quite noticeable. However, I do feel the use of force armor could be argued.

 

A couple of pointers for heals I would like to give to make healing simpler

1. Increase the size of your buff bars, as well as your debuff bars. This will make it easier to remove any debuffs, as well as helping you to see when Force Armor is used or falls off, which makes the most of your force.

2. Carry medpacs, use them to heal yourself when using sacrifice.

3. If a medpac is on cool down and you need Force, make sure you put force armor on yourself then use rejuvenate ( also depending on your situation ) then start using sacrifice. The ticks will keep you healed enough to still be able to eat an aoe or two. If all else fails use your self heal.

4. Personally I think the most important skill any healer could have is knowing the encounter inside and out.

 

And also your example of tank trash is written with a biased opinion, because in theory you could go multiple heals without a crit which could cause your tank to die because you are losing 600hp every time you don't crit. Specially if rng is your enemy and you get 0 crits a fight.

Edited by Thuggie
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I think my quote was from reading page 5 but not the rest.

 

Supergrunt I am sure you are a fine healer, it doesn't take much to run normal ops or hard flashpoints. You could run them naked, and I am sure your guildies would say what a fine healer you are.

 

Heck just the other day I was running an op and got told I had good force management. I welcomed the compliment, but honestly I could have just not been healing.

 

Your statement about having 30% crit is valid, but your elitist attitude is garbage. Insulting people on the forums, not willing to prove anything to anyone. Its like arguing whether or not God is real with nothing to back it up with anything other than mere a-holish statements of I am right you are wrong.

 

I am pretty sure you couldn't cut it in a hardcore guild.

 

Now that I got my bashing out, your theory on crit is WRONG WRONG WRONG. Though it isn't a bad stat to have, it isn't a stat you should ever gear for. Now matter what you will be wasting some of that geared crit chance, because rejuvenate buffs healing trance by 25% crit. Sure you can say rng blah blah blah. But if you had 100% crit the 25% crit would make your total crit on healing trance 125% chance, when 100% chance is all you need guarantee a crit, in short what this means if that is a waste of a stat.

 

Here is some simple math even you can understand and if needed I will draw you some pictures using a crayon.

 

Lets say you have 30% chance to crit, this means 3 out of 10 times you will crit. Sure rng will sometimes roll for you or against you. But for simple monkey math lets say you always get 3 crits out of every 10 ticks of healing trance.

 

Great now lets buff crit ( oh we don't need to gear for it because we have a buff that gives us more crit to healing trance )

 

So now we have 55% chance to crit which means 5 ticks of healing trance will crit. Thats great except. Lets again assume you always get your 5 ticks. But wait healing trance only ticks 3 times. For easy math lets say those 3 ticks always crit, still you are losing healing because 2 of those ticks are being left unused.

 

Now you will argue WHAT ABOUT MY OTHER SPELLS. You are right omg. However your options are very minimal at this point. You might get 2 deliverances out before healing trance comes off cool down if you press buttons hard enough. Which crit will sometimes help out, but most the time you will only get 1 deliverance out before you have to put force armor on someone ( which is never ever effected by crit ), cast rejuvenate, or salvation. Now crit can effect rejuvenate and salvation, however healing trance should be your go to ability. But rejuvenate isn't meant to be effective healing, its more used to a. top off someone, or b. to give you the proc you need to buff your next heal. Essentially Force Armor and Rejuvenate are two abilities which are completely useless with high crit. Then you have salvation which has a decent cool down. Therefore you won't be using it as much as any of your other healing abilities, which in short means gearing to get this ability to crit is useless.

 

A general rule of thumb is to gear to your best & most commonly used healing spell, for sages that ability is healing trance, like it or not.

 

In closing will crit help you? Sure, but not to the degree the other stats will help you.

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Before we go into pointless arguments again, the 0 crit suggestion in order to maximise available HPS/HPCT is due to the way crit formula works, and the amount of secondary rating available as of latest patch. As gear progresses I do imagine Sages taking crit on their gear. Many DPS classes and the other healers already want some crit and as pointed out the difference between 0-400 crit rating has minimal impact on HPS potential.

 

In Vanilla it was common to have and I recommended having 40% crit, even when this was likely not optimal in HPS/HPCT terms. With full 63s it was possible to have this with as little as cca 250 crit rating. The main reason for this is to up crit chance to 100% when using Force Potency, which could then be used with 2 Deliverances for either a pre-planned burst or as a reaction to heavy damage. I sorely miss those guaranteed crits as casting more than 2 Deliverances in a row is not efficient and wasting a charge on Rejuvenate is, well a waste. Should this become the case in the future (cca 400 rating required to reach 40%) I will be once again be a proponent of this.

 

I do not side with Thuggie's medpack suggestion as a medpack can only be used once per fight, it is probably best to use it for a mechanic (DG's Lightning) or an emergency if at all. Using it as a means to cancel out Sacrfices seems wasteful considering all the other tools we are given. I also do not side with the suggestion that Rejuvenate should not be effective healing as one of the main aims of a healer is to have all heals effective (an aim not a requirement, 75% effective is very good). When going through my logs, Rejuvenate forms a wast amount of my healing, often more than Deliverance. It is however, acceptable to cast Rej+HT combos when there is a lull in healing in order to generate charges and Sacrifice, essentially building up your Force before next healing phase. While this healing is often mostly overhealing it is still beneficial. I agree on all other points, particularly that knowing the fight is half the battle and anybody wishing to raid at contemporary level (HMs and NMs) should learn as much as possible about fights, not just their role and leave the rest up to the raid leader.

 

Also I have seen Ariss's stream. He is a very good healer even if I would use my GCDs differently. Fortunately this game allows for such little preferences otherwise healing would be very bland (or rather blander it already is pretty underwhelming). And honestly, when watching some of my recordings I cringe at mistakes made during fights.

Edited by Darth_Dreselus
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Drese,

 

I have found in MMO's that every time you go into a fight there is always something different, be it the way people play that night, or the way the boss moves something always changes, sure the mechanics stay the same.

 

I used to frap a lot when I played rift, I never clicked to win I always used key bindings. The first video I ever posted on utube was of me using key bindings, people complained about how I had my keys set up and I couldn't be effective unless I did click.

 

From then on I started posting videos with out an interface, which made the game a lot more fun and allowed me to see it without cluttering.

 

My point is though you may recognize you messed up, you still were able to get the job done.

 

As far as your point about rejuvenate, I don't think it is a useless spell. However, I do think it wouldn't get used as much ( unless topping someone off ) if it didn't buff your next healing spell.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Well I'll have to agree with everyone of you :p

I actually tried healing with 35% crit and 0 alacrity, then tried minimum crit rating, and ~10% alacrity.

The only thing I can say with being sure, is that I prefer the alacrity gameplay. More reactive, and it has the same output for me.

 

Then I'm gonna point on something : we're not healing alone :)

I have a good healer of each three classes on my guild, and I healed with each one. With another Seer (crit build, ~3% alacrity), I was happy to have my alacrity because he healed the big life holes, and I maintained everyone stable. With a Soldier, I healed overall 90% raid and 10% tanks, my imba-aoe-da***-nerf was at its full potency, and I saw numbers on TORParse that I didn't see before :p Finally, with a Scoundrel, I was a lot with the fat heal and more concentrated on refreshing the armor HoT on tanks. I always kept crit and alacrity + power relic big CDs to panic situations, and Scoundrel + Seer's AoE means no problem with raid heal :p

In each of these situations, I clearly appreciated the alacrity gear. I would like to try a crit build with a scoundrel, I may be more comfortable for tank sustained heal. I don't really know.

 

I actually think the alacrity (or a very good mate and a very good experience on healing your groups) is needed in nightmare modes, there's things that don't allow the 0.5s delay :) I can clearly admit the fact that I won't try the crit build in nightmare, but it's very viable in normal, and in HM if the iLvL is OK :)

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  • 3 weeks later...

As far as the OP's original post the only part I disagree with is the use of salvation, I don't use it on cool down its pointless. Yeah I do understand it can heal the tank, but at that instant you have other abilities which can do this more effectively. Typically your salvation won't hit 8 people for every tick. I will admit there are times when salvation is extremely useful.

 

As far as force armor goes, I use it on cool down. Its a preemptive heal more or less. Normally I work out with other sages, which groups or people I will make sure to use it. Also force armor being used on cool down on the main tank is a heal without numbers, unless you can calculate how much damage you are reducing due to the buff force armor gives. At the end of the encounter I would imagine the minimal mitigation offered from this buff would be quite noticeable. However, I do feel the use of force armor could be argued.

.

 

While I agree with your assessment of healing, and how to use your abilities, it actually reinforces the 0 crit policy. If you look at Orderken's model, he shows what your HPCT is for every ability and you can easily switch up gear to see how it varies. Force Armor can be calculated, and it can not crit, so it takes a huge hit every point of crit you invest into, while salvation I believe actually benefits the most from crit. At Kell Dragon level, if you put 2 pieces of crit (based on what I've played with in his model) then the healing done by salvation and resurgance slightly go up, while force armor and HT go down by a good amount. After 2 pieces however, EVERY ability you use will begin to depreciate in its average heals.

 

Essentially what I'm getting at is that at current gear tiers, the crit chance can boost your salvation by a small amount, and even resurgance (maybe 5 healing on each) but your force armor will drop by 40-50 healing and your innervate/HT will drop by ~15 healing. I personally would rather have innervate/HT heal for more since I focus that on someone very hurt, while the salvation primarily goes to overheals regardless.

 

I feel its a very fair model that both Nibbon and Orderken present although I typically prefer to look at the changes to each individual heal than the "rotation" that they may present. While a slightly higher crit chance can be nice, the 3% higher crit won't save you in an operation, and if every heal you put out is hitting for less on average then you are slightly gimping yourself. In a NiM raid there is constant damage you are trying to heal, so its not a "rely on this one heal on the tank to keep them up" situation where you need a desperate crit. Throughout the duration of a fight, say you use force armor 30 times, you are effectively reducing healing there directly by ~1200 healing throughout a fight which doesn't sound like much, but that's what min/maxing is.

 

Having ~200 crit is by no means a bad thing, but I still do believe strongly that having full power is better, and while it is minor changes, it still will boost your overall healing in the end.

 

Without math, it is pretty clear that force armor will benefit more from power, and HT as well (power boosts every tick, so it adds bonus healing 4x). Not to mention, while operatives and mercs get a 15% boost to surge for healing abilities, sorcs get a 6% boost to bonus healing. They benefit the least from crit out of the various healers, and they benefit the most from power. Even operatives and mercs with this high surge chance still tend to sit at ~300 crit, and thats on a class that benefits way more than us from it.

 

Crit will become BiS in 2.4 most likely since the heals are getting bigger and it is a percentage increase, but the gear level isn't quite there yet. In 63s people would sit at high crit since it was the top level of vanilla gear, and just like dps it became more and more useful, but we aren't at the top tier yet, and probably have at least 3-4 tiers left to go.

 

TL;DR If you like crit, it won't affect you much but you will be healing on average for slightly less. It won't be a game changer for getting through content, and it will get you fully geared much faster. I would recommend sitting ~200 or less from what I've seen on how it affects each individual ability.

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I'll post my preliminary findings tomorrow based on the data available about level 78 items.

 

UPDATE: I don't anticipate any changes to BIS with the introduction of level 78 gear. That is, I anticipate that (1) BIS will continue to have zero Critical from gear, (2) Resolve (Willpower) augments will continue to be more beneficial than Overkill (Power) augments, and (3) the best allocation of "Enhancements" will continue to be 7 Alacrity to 3 Surge.

Edited by Orderken
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  • 3 weeks later...

Hey, I know Benevolence used to suck, but they buffed it a bit in 2.0. I never use it for regular heals, it would be a waste. But for clutch healing, rejuvenate+benevolence can be useful... if your tank is about to die and you've used healing trance, i would say Benevolence may be useful if you can't wait for that deliverance.

But remember, I'm saying Benevolence is not a good heal for regular healing, it is only a situational heal.

But this situational heal also enforces the fact that power-over-crit improves HPS, because conveyance gives +60% Crit to your next Benevolence :p

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Hey, I know Benevolence used to suck, but they buffed it a bit in 2.0. I never use it for regular heals, it would be a waste. But for clutch healing, rejuvenate+benevolence can be useful... if your tank is about to die and you've used healing trance, i would say Benevolence may be useful if you can't wait for that deliverance.

But remember, I'm saying Benevolence is not a good heal for regular healing, it is only a situational heal.

But this situational heal also enforces the fact that power-over-crit improves HPS, because conveyance gives +60% Crit to your next Benevolence :p

 

You are correct on the usage of Benevolence. Usually though if you have Rejuvenate ready that will be the better option. Do not think I have ever used Conveyance with Benevolence

 

No point min/maxing gear based on a spell used 5 times per raid.

 

Do not forget that the models can be adjusted to suit your healing (simply replace the number of times/percentages of spells used in a given fight from your log)

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