[Theorycrafting] Sage Heal Stats

[Nibbon]

I wrote that healing isn't about outputting higher HPS (as Nibbon, the DPSer at heart that he is, has suggested)

 

Well, we have already had our argument, so I won't rehash that much - but for the sake it moving to this thread, I will highlight a few things.

 

I was a healer long before I was a DPSer - I'm sure I'd be a good healer if that is what I decided to focus on, that is what I initially was before I switched over to DPS. I also healed in every other game I played as my primary (EQ and then WoW).

 

My previous long post (#48 above) sort of highlights why I think HPS is a good metric to use - but I feel like your previous post had some contradictions. Again, just keeping this towards highlights ...

1. HPCT and HPS are very similar, you can argue the semantics all you want, but the reason they reach a similar conclusion is because they are similar metrics.

2. The difference isn't that I am maximizing HPS and you HPCT, it is the methodology that we used that made us reach our slight (very slight) variations in the ending results.

3. No matter what you maximize - if you are looking at, "how can I get my tank who is almost dead to max health the fastest?" we are all talking about "burst heal" and all of that healing is effective, which as I have argued in the past, is really the only kind of healing one needs to worry about (triage, as you say, I would agree with). In order to get your tank from 0 health to 100% health as fast as you can, HPS or HPCT, or whatever, would all work, to different degrees.

 

I don't really care to argue this again, but I think those are the three most important parts. Again, I think it is more important to get everyone the information they need to make their own informed decisions rather than tell them directly what to do. If I went back in to my spreadsheet and altered just a few numbers, I can probably get a slightly different result from what I am (hitting more people under salvation, for example, raises the usefulness of surge). I still very strongly believe that our end use metrics are very closely related and that it is only the methodology that is creating any gap at all (I would label mine the "generic model" more than I would the "HPS model."

[Orderken]

Well, we have already had our argument [...]

 

Indeed. While I don't favor your approach to modeling for healing, for reasons including that it is, or at least seems, susceptible to broad criticisms of the practice of modeling for healing like those raised by Ariss, I favor it for DPS, and I respect your work and insights in general. Despite being on your case about your healing model, I did write a 4-point endorsement for you to be our "class representative". <3

Edited July 13, 2013 by Orderken

[Nibbon]

Indeed. While I don't favor your approach to modeling for healing, for reasons including that it is, or at least seems, susceptible to broad criticisms of the practice of modeling for healing like those raised by Ariss, I favor it for DPS, and I respect your work and insights in general. Despite being on your case about your healing model, I did write a 4-point endorsement for you to be our "class representative". <3

 

I appreciate that <3

 

Doesn't mean I won't defend my model for healing

[Orderken]

I'm making the claim that the BiS stats for the actual healing done in game and not the spreadsheet, is not what these players are suggesting rather it is what I'm suggesting. So the valid conclusion is that this thread is misleading for players looking to figure out how to get the best performance out of the sage healing class.

 

I didn't see this second post when I'd replied yesterday. I suppose the gloves are off if you're saying that my guide is "misleading", so I'll be blunt. For tank healing, you've adjusted BIS merely to fish for crits. This is a gamble, not a strategy. With enough pulls, a gamble will eventually pay off, but one can learn instead how to heal tanks in these fights without relying on luck.

 

In the fights that you mention, where tanks take spike damage, I haven't had the difficulty that you report with keeping tanks alive. In Dread Guards and Kephess the Undying, I'm sometimes assigned to heal a tank, and receive little help from other healers. While it's difficult to cope with spike damage, I haven't lost a tank with the gear that I recommend. Similarly, in Terror from Beyond, I've never lost my tank in Phase 1 except when a tentacle's enrage has lasted for over four seconds, though I've been paired with our weakest healer; I stay at range to draw TFB's spit and have to move, often at inopportune moments; and my tank has picked up every cloud debuff, which itself deals substantial spike damage to him.

 

In other words, while healing tanks in these fights is demanding, I succeed at it. My success is due, in part, to having the gear that I recommend. On PTS, I've had slightly less success and more close calls when tank healing in gear like that which you recommend. Of course, factors other than gear have contributed to my success, especially learning from early pulls when to use cooldowns; moving ahead of time when the tank's health is adequate so that I can stand still to cast or channel heals when my tank needs it; and using Static Barrier|Force Armor strategically, per the fourth topic under heading "PVE Advice" in my guide.

 

I'm surprised that you prefer 4-5% higher Critical chance for maintaining your tanks. I wonder if your recent success is due instead to having had more practice with these fights. Your build lowers the HPS of Static Barrier|Force Armor and Dark Infusion|Deliverance. In addition, while it's common to argue for a very high Surge build on the grounds that Innervate|Healing Trance will "hit like a truck", your build lowers its HPS, too.

 

If Critical chance with Recklessness|Force Potency could be 100% (or very close), like it could before RotHC, I might recommend a build with substantial Critical from gear, regardless of any model's results. Until such time, I have no reason not to recommend the gear that has superior HPS and HPCT and that has helped me successfully heal tanks in the fights that you've cited.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Orderken

[campbellsoup]

Obviously this post is much more PVE based than PVP, and I see you did do a PVP analysis where you would want 5 surge and 5 alacrity enhancements. I understand your backing on using more alacrity than surge to avoid interrupts, but was actually thinking it might be worthwhile to go the other way. I've seen some of the RWZ healers rocking the stalker set bonus (2 piece 5m extra range on force slow) (4 piece 15s CD reduction on Recklessness + an extra charge). And with that it might be worthwhile going a little more surge.

 

In a regular warzone with no tanks, the alacrity will likely be much more useful, but if you're using recklessness a lot with good tanks keeping people off of you, the surge could be more useful to drop some strong self heals/dark infusions. The set bonus strikes me as more useful overall than reduce lockout on static barrier by 1.5s and consumption sucking up a little less health. For a long time I was using the 2 piece PVE, but the loss to expertise doesn't seem to be made up for very well.

 

Just wanted to see your thoughts on this, I know you don't PVP too much, and I don't either but there seems to be extremely limited resources into it. I'd consider Operatives in a better place than sorcs right now in PVP for sure, but a duo of the two seems to be ideal. It also seems that the matrix cube is definitely better than an ephermeal mending relic even if it does have more crit on it than the operative's cube.

[Orderken]

Obviously this post is much more PVE based than PVP, and I see you did do a PVP analysis where you would want 5 surge and 5 alacrity enhancements. I understand your backing on using more alacrity than surge to avoid interrupts, but was actually thinking it might be worthwhile to go the other way.

 

Skills and gear for PVP vary a great deal, and I don't believe there's a "best". I wanted to share some thoughts about PVP in my guide, but, compared to recommendations about PVE, these are tentative and personal. I like Alacrity in PVP for two reasons. First, to finish as many casts as possible before resuming my usual auto-running from multiple enemies glued to me. Second, Static Barrier|Force Armor is the ability that I use most often in warzones, and it doesn't benefit from Surge, because it can't crit.

 

I've seen some of the RWZ healers rocking the stalker set bonus (2 piece 5m extra range on force slow) (4 piece 15s CD reduction on Recklessness + an extra charge). And with that it might be worthwhile going a little more surge. In a regular warzone with no tanks, the alacrity will likely be much more useful, but if you're using recklessness a lot with good tanks keeping people off of you, the surge could be more useful to drop some strong self heals/dark infusions. The set bonus strikes me as more useful overall than reduce lockout on static barrier by 1.5s and consumption sucking up a little less health. For a long time I was using the 2 piece PVE, but the loss to expertise doesn't seem to be made up for very well.

 

I find the two-piece PVP healing set bonus (1.5 second reduction in Deionized|Force-imbalance) to be the most useful. The four-piece PVP healing set bonus is garbage, but so is additional range for Force Slow. The four-piece PVP set bonus to Recklessness is interesting. I don't prefer it myself, because I inevitably consume the third charge with Resurgence|Rejuvenate, which diminishes this bonus' value for me.

 

I don't know how your tank keeps DPS off you for any length of time against a rated team with a mix of melee and ranged DPS. I rarely run rateds with more than one tank, however, and even that tank may be in DPS gear and not fully tank specced. PVP recommendations are challenging to make because comps vary so much.

 

Just wanted to see your thoughts on this, I know you don't PVP too much, and I don't either but there seems to be extremely limited resources into it. I'd consider Operatives in a better place than sorcs right now in PVP for sure, but a duo of the two seems to be ideal. It also seems that the matrix cube is definitely better than an ephermeal mending relic even if it does have more crit on it than the operative's cube.

 

Yes, a Matrix Cube is my second relic for PVP (Conqueror Serendipitous Assault is my first). First, at this time, you receive full expertise on a Matrix Cube from Bolster. Second, Critical is a great stat, it's just very slightly less valuable than Power (at least for PVE).

 

In RotHC, I believe that Operative|Scoundrel healers have decisive advantages in PVP. I do rateds with an Operative|Scoundrel, and I agree that this pairing is solid, though I'm not convinced that two Operatives|Scoundrels isn't better. Not only does an Operative|Scoundrel have superior mobility, CC, and survivability, but it's not uncommon for an Operative|Scoundrel to do 90% of the healing of a Sorcerer|Sage without ever having to cast or manage his energy. I love healing PVP on my Sorcerer, and I'll continue to. I don't wish to discourage you, and I don't consider Sorcerer|Sage healers to be in any way under-powered. But, in my opinion, RotHC raised imbalances that favor Operatives|Scoundrels for healing PVP to new and eye-rolling heights.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Orderken

[Nibbon]

I don't really have anything to add to PvP that I didn't already say and that orderken didn't just say.

 

PvP, more than PvE, is much less mathematical. I'll see if I can discuss with a ranked PvPer a bit to see what they do, because trial and error here will return better results.

[campbellsoup]

Yes, a Matrix Cube is my second relic for PVP (Conqueror Serendipitous Assault is my first). First, at this time, you receive full expertise on a Matrix Cube from Bolster. Second, Critical is a great stat, it's just very slightly less valuable than Power (at least for PVE).

 

Just referring to the fact that the operative matrix cube has more mainstat and less crit than sorc matrix cube.

 

Makes sense. I love pvping, but have never gotten anything but pugged rated teams unfortunately since my guild is almost entirely PvE. I still think I may try getting a set of parttisan stalker gear and worst case I can just send it to my assassin I'm leveling. The idea intrigues me since you are required to use heals such as dark heal and dark infusion much more than innervate, so if timed correctly, you could time some nice burst with 3 charges. The downside obviously is that resurgance consumes it. The cooldown reduction seems almost more useful, because I definitely find it to be one of my best survivability cooldowns.

 

That being said, I see the bonus to the static barrier being a reduced lockout useful, but 1.5 seconds on a 20s lockout just doesn't seem like a huge difference (although every second can count in pvp). Part of what has made me reluctant to PvP too much since 2.0 is I haven't been sure how to gear, and have been using a 2 piece PVE which gets bolstered terribly. I've become so used to the innervate CD reduction however that I've been hesitant to lose it.

 

It has been a while since I've visited your guide ordeken, but if I remember correctly you had posted two builds, one with the 2 set PvE and one with the 4 piece PvP last time I checked. As you stated, PvP is more skill than gear based, but gear nonetheless can help. Both of your guides are great, even if they have slight differences, and I always recommend any new sorc healers to look at both.

Edited July 17, 2013 by campbellsoup

[Orderken]

Part of what has made me reluctant to PvP too much since 2.0 is I haven't been sure how to gear, and have been using a 2 piece PVE which gets bolstered terribly. I've become so used to the innervate CD reduction however that I've been hesitant to lose it.

 

I also dreaded this loss of (at the time) my 6-second cooldown on Innervate|Healing Trance, but its loss wasn't as bad as I'd imagined.

 

It has been a while since I've visited your guide ordeken, but if I remember correctly you had posted two builds, one with the 2 set PvE and one with the 4 piece PvP last time I checked.

 

Yes, when you could have a 6-second cooldown for Innervate|Healing Trance by stacking two 2-piece PVE set bonuses, I rolled into warzones with 4 PVE set pieces. Since that time, Bioware has also patched Bolster about four times, and some of these patches made PVE gear less advantageous. Today, I prefer the survivability of full Conquerors, and I've removed from my guide the link to a gear profile with 4 PVE set pieces.

 

Regardless of your gear, I wouldn't hesitate to queue for warzones. Gear enhances your survivability, but anticipating damage and perfecting kiting or escape maneuvers is far more important.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Alacrity = "speed", yes ? I mean, am I right in my assumption that more alacrity = fast cooling down of cooldowns ?

 

Sorry, English isn't my first language, and with my slight Dyscalculia I'm having a hard time with spreadsheets.

 

I often had the feeling that if I invest in Alacrity, then my cooldowns are ... well, "cooling down" a little nit faster.

Is this right, or does my mind play a trick with me ?

[Orderken]

Alacrity = "speed", yes ?

 

Yes, Alacrity is speed for ability activation.

 

I often had the feeling that if I invest in Alacrity, then my cooldowns are ... well, "cooling down" a little nit faster.

 

Alacrity reduces the global cooldown ("GCD"), but doesn't affect any ability's own cooldown.

 

For example, Unnatural Preservation|Force Mend is a heal with a cooldown of 30 seconds. Activating it uses a GCD. With no Alacrity, using a GCD prevents you from activating your next heal for 1.5 seconds. With 10% Alacrity, your GCD is shorter, and you'll be able to activate your next heal in about 1.5 / (1 + 10%) or 1.36 seconds. So, by reducing your GCD, Alacrity allows you to activate your next ability sooner. On the other hand, regardless of your Alacrity, this ability's own 30-second cooldown prevents you from re-using its until 30 seconds have elapsed.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Orderken

[SuperGrunt]

Stats/Results

I'll keep this short.

 

The end result I got was this (AT UNDERWORLD GEARING LEVEL/168):

No crit - Every point above 0 is a loss (lots of GCD that don't use crit is why, noble sac/consumpion, force armor)

6 Alacrity Enhancements

4 Surge Enhancements

 

If you had all 168 ilvl gear, that would be:

0 crit

316 surge

474 alacrity

1353 power

 

At this level, having a crit of 200 lowers HPS by 11. This is only slightly over 0.32% of theoretical HPS. In fact 400 crit is 33 HPS, so that is only ~0.96% of your max HPS.

 

At Kell Dragon - the mix stays the same

Crit at 0 is still optimal, with each pointing lowering HPS.

 

400 crit here lowers HPS by about 26, or 0.72%.

 

For the record, you want all willpower augments.

 

As someone who does not yet have optimized gear, I would like to state that at no time should any Sorc have less than 30% crit when fully buffed. We need to get crits regularly from Innervate, and when I tried to remove some of my Crit Mods and Enhancements when I was in 66/69 gear it got to the point where I would have to use 2 or 3 Resurgance buffed Innervates just to get 3 stacks of Force Bending. That was a problem for me due to the fact that Force Bending is so important to Sorc/Sage for Force Management.

 

Also while Theory Crafting is all well and good, it needs to be backed up with actual game play. As you stated there is not one single fight in the game where we will get to Max HPS, heck half the time I will throw out some damage just because it will help my group more than me keeping them at 100% health.

 

Granted this comes from someone who is currently in about half 69 half 72 Mods, and only a couple(4 to be exact) of Artifact Resolve Augs, with most of my Augs being of the Prototype Overkill variety. Sorc/Sage healers need to worry more about being able to best heal in all situations that we will actually encounter in game rather than trying to reach some Max HPS # that will never actually be usable in any actual situation that we will find in game.

[Orderken]

Also while Theory Crafting is all well and good, it needs to be backed up with actual game play. As you stated there is not one single fight in the game where we will get to Max HPS, heck half the time I will throw out some damage just because it will help my group more than me keeping them at 100% health.

 

I agree with you, but, after over 110 hours of healing 8- or 16-man Nightmare TFB or S&V as a Sorcerer|Sage, I also find that no Critical from gear is usually optimal for a healing Sorcerer|Sage. I've used builds with Critical on gear for NiM TFB and S&V on live or PTS, and liked these slightly less.

 

As Nibbon wrote in his original post, he didn't write a guide for healing because I already had. Nibbon provides a link to my guide in his original post, and that link is also in my signature. Though the title of this thread says "Theorycrafting", you've missed the work and discussion that preceded it and that continued after Nibbon's original post in this thread, in other threads on this forum, and in threads on other forums. As a result, you've misjudged the book by its cover.

 

After writing my guide, I created a model to see whether science might cast doubt on my feelings about my experience. Though Nibbon's model calculates maximum HPS, my model uses an entirely different approach. Yet both of our models arrive at the same conclusion: no Critical from gear is usually optimal for a healing Sorcerer|Sage. Please see the link in my signature if you wish to download my model. It starts with data about effective healing in 16-man NiM TFB and S&V, and proceeds to calculate what gear would most benefit this effective healing. I encourage you to update the healing data in my model with data from your healing of your raid to tailor its calculations for you.

 

You don't need to rely solely on my experience. Noim, like me a Sorcerer|Sage healer for a 16-man progression guild, in our most recent discussion also recommended no Critical from gear. Dreselus, another Sorcerer|Sage healer who has made numerous and insightful contributions to discussions of optimal gear for healing Sorcerers|Sages, is, I believe, also comfortable recommending no Critical on gear.

 

As someone who does not yet have optimized gear, I would like to state that at no time should any Sorc have less than 30% crit when fully buffed. We need to get crits regularly from Innervate, and when I tried to remove some of my Crit Mods and Enhancements when I was in 66/69 gear it got to the point where I would have to use 2 or 3 Resurgance buffed Innervates just to get 3 stacks of Force Bending. That was a problem for me due to the fact that Force Bending is so important to Sorc/Sage for Force Management.

 

First, you should be using Innervate|Healing Trance when it's Critical chance is buffed 25% by Force Bending|Conveyance (from Resurgence|Rejuvenate). This 25% Critical chance alone means that each Innervate|Healing Trance is expected to proc 1 charge of Force Surge|Resplendence. If, as you report, you're receiving about 1 charge of Force Surge|Resplendence from each Innervate|Healing Trance, your issue is failing to buff Innervate|Healing Trance with Force Bending|Conveyance. This is arguably the most serious mistake that a Sorcerer|Sage healer can make, and you should remedy this immediately.

 

Second, you mention having some Overkill (Power) augments. If your goal is higher Critical chance, you should use all Resolve (Willpower) augments. This is especially true when your gear is far from BIS.

 

Third, for healers attempting the most challenging content, the issue isn't proccing Force Surge|Resplendence, but rather having the time to use Consumption|Noble Sacrifice. Though the expected number of charges of Force Surge|Resplendence from Innervate|Healing Trance increases with Critical chance, I can count on one hand the number of times that I needed to activate Consumption|Noble Sacrifice but lacked a charge of Force Surge|Resplendence. As a Sorcerer|Sage, I have a large "gas tank". When damage is intense, it's strategic to heal without pausing for Consumption|Noble Sacrifice. Afterwards, I'll have 3 charges of Force Surge|Resplendence built up, and the opportunity to use Consumption|Noble Sacrifice without someone dying as I do. Since, without Critical on my gear, I'm losing some Force Surge|Resplendence procs because I already have 3 stacks, increasing the likelihood of procs isn't a sufficient reason to sacrifice Power for Critical on gear.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Orderken

[Darth_Dreselus]

I cannot find the thread but I do remember Noim outlining that you will still get on average 2 stacks per HT regardless of whether you have 0 crit or 400 crit (which I believe is about enough to get you 30%)

 

I wish this was Vanilla, where I just sat on 40% crit to get 100% from Force Potency. The More WP I got the more crit rating I had traded in for power, ended up with something like 250 rating.

 

As far as relying on expertise goes Aurojin, now sadly retired but once one of the most prolific posters in Sage forums (made all sorts of guides) has also recommended 0 crit.

 

All that being said, you will be able to clear content with 30% crit, particularly after recent nerfs. The purpose of this thread is to outline, as close as possible BiS gearing. It is a mathematical exercise, which works because the game is based on mathematics and statistics. Neither Nibbon, Noin, Orderken, Aurojin nor I or any other experienced Sage will claim that you must follow the recommendation in this thread to succeed, but they are recommendations for a reason (7 pages of reasons on this thread alone).

Edited July 31, 2013 by Darth_Dreselus

[Orderken]

I cannot find the thread but I do remember Noim outlining that you will still get on average 2 stacks per HT regardless of whether you have 0 crit or 400 crit (which I believe is about enough to get you 30%)

 

The last (rightmost) worksheet in my model is a quick calculator of the expected number of procs of Force Surge|Resplendence from each completed Innervate|Healing Trance. You only need to enter the Critical chance for your Innervate|Healing Trance.

 

And, yes, it's about 2 procs regardless of your Critical on gear if you round to a whole number.

[SuperGrunt]

I agree with you, but, after over 110 hours of healing 8- or 16-man Nightmare TFB or S&V as a Sorcerer|Sage, I also find that no Critical from gear is usually optimal for a healing Sorcerer|Sage. I've used builds with Critical on gear for NiM TFB and S&V on live or PTS, and liked these slightly less.

 

As Nibbon wrote in his original post, he didn't write a guide for healing because I already had. Nibbon provides a link to my guide in his original post, and that link is also in my signature. Though the title of this thread says "Theorycrafting", you've missed the work and discussion that preceded it and that continued after Nibbon's original post in this thread, in other threads on this forum, and in threads on other forums. As a result, you've misjudged the book by its cover.

 

After writing my guide, I created a model to see whether science might cast doubt on my feelings about my experience. My model is different than Nibbon's, primarily because of the concern that you've raised with his approach, and yet my model arrived at the same conclusion as Nibbon's: no Critical from gear is usually optimal for a healing Sorcerer|Sage. Please see the link in my signature if you wish to download my model. It starts with data about effective healing in 16-man NiM TFB and S&V, and proceeds to calculate what gear would most benefit this effective healing. I encourage you to update the healing data in my model with data from your healing of your raid to tailor its calculations for you.

 

You don't need to rely solely on my experience. Noim, like me a Sorcerer|Sage healer for a 16-man progression guild, in our most recent discussion also recommended no Critical from gear. Dreselus, another Sorcerer|Sage healer who has made numerous and insightful contributions to discussions of optimal gear for healing Sorcerers|Sages, is, I believe, also comfortable recommending no Critical on gear.

 

 

 

First, you should be using Innervate|Healing Trance when it's Critical chance is buffed 25% by Force Bending|Conveyance (from Resurgence|Rejuvenate). This 25% Critical chance alone means that each Innervate|Healing Trance is expected to proc 1 charge of Force Surge|Resplendence. If, as you report, you're receiving about 1 charge of Force Surge|Resplendence from each Innervate|Healing Trance, your issue is failing to buff Innervate|Healing Trance with Force Bending|Conveyance. This is arguably the most serious mistake that a Sorcerer|Sage healer can make, and you should remedy this immediately.

 

Second, you mention having some Overkill (Power) augments. If your goal is higher Critical chance, you should use all Resolve (Willpower) augments. This is especially true when your gear is far from BIS.

 

Third, for healers attempting the most challenging content, the issue isn't proccing Force Surge|Resplendence, but rather having the time to use Consumption|Noble Sacrifice. Though the expected number of charges of Force Surge|Resplendence from Innervate|Healing Trance increases with Critical chance, I can count on one hand the number of times that I needed to activate Consumption|Noble Sacrifice but lacked a charge of Force Surge|Resplendence. As a Sorcerer|Sage, I have a large "gas tank". When damage is intense, it's strategic to heal without pausing for Consumption|Noble Sacrifice. Afterwards, I'll have 3 charges of Force Surge|Resplendence built up, and the opportunity to use Consumption|Noble Sacrifice without someone dying as I do. Since, without Critical on my gear, I'm losing some Force Surge|Resplendence procs because I already have 3 stacks, increasing the likelihood of procs isn't a sufficient reason to sacrifice Power for Critical on gear.

 

As someone who has healed in multiple games and as every class in this game, main healing as a Sorc since launch and did some durring the Beta weekends as well I am pretty sure I am as experienced as you if not more so. I have healed next to other Sorc and Sage healers and I can tell you without any shadow of a doubt that the mistake I saw most often was the use of Resplendence/Force Surge to reduce the cast time of our AOE heal. Personally I would rather waste that buff completely than to use it for Reviv/Salv without needing to heal 3+ people. I always use Innervate/Healing Trance while buffed with Force Bending/Conveyance except in very rare instances. I listened to the Theory crafter when I hit lvl 55, on my Sorc, that said "Crit is useless get rid of it" and started to see that I would seldom get more than one Force Surge from Innervate, which would tend to put me in an awkward position when I would be OOF and had only 1 Force Surge to use Consumption, if that. Then I was having to do Resurgance and Innervate just to get some more Force Surges even though no one needed to be healed that much anymore. As I stated if you are not Min/Max you need to keep Force Crit @ 30% while fully buff or even with Force Bending/Conveyance buffing Innervate/Healing Trance you will run into trouble when you get to Healing intesive fights. IE poorly geared tanks in content that they aren't really geared for, or during big damage phases. Sometimes as a Healer you have to sit back and realize that you are not Superman and can't save everyone, and allow that other healer in an Ops help out, or if a DPS in a FP is being derp and trying to die let the idiot die.

[SuperGrunt]

The last (rightmost) worksheet in my model is a quick calculator of the expected number of procs of Force Surge|Resplendence from each completed Innervate|Healing Trance. You only need to enter the Critical chance for your Innervate|Healing Trance.

 

And, yes, it's about 2 procs regardless of your Critical on gear if you round to a whole number.

 

In what gear level are you doing these calculations? Also are you taking into account a RNG that has people scratching their heads as to why we can't get schematics to proc after 100 RE's and other schematics proc on the first RE?

 

***EDIT***

I actually just hit lvl 55 on my Sage, I was planing on sharing as much gear with my Sage and Sorc as I possibly could through the use of my Legacy Gear. However I feel that this is a prime opportunity to prove definitively one way or the other what the actual facts of the matter are. So instead of using my Legacy gear with the Mods that I have already earned, help me gear out my Sage legitimately. I will start out with 66s that I will craft and do the SM Ops with you if you are on The Harbinger, and then we will work on getting her into 69s. If you are on The Harbinger and want to accept my proposal PM me on the forums so we can arrange this. I don't give out my character's names on forums as I feel from past experience that this leads to griefing and drama.

Edited July 31, 2013 by SuperGrunt

[Orderken]

I listened to the Theory crafter when I hit lvl 55, on my Sorc, that said "Crit is useless get rid of it"

 

Neither I nor Nibbon has said or implied that Critical is "useless". Quite the opposite, in fact -- I'm always careful to say that Critical is a beneficial stat, but, in general, slightly less beneficial than Power.

 

I would seldom get more than one Force Surge from Innervate

 

I don't believe this. When naked, your Critical chance is 16% with a proper allocation of skill points, the bonus from Legacy/Companion, and Imperial Agent|Smuggler buff. Add to this datacrons, a proper stim, and gear from the Elite gear (Arkanian) or Basic gear vendor, and your Critical chance will exceed 23% even with zero Critical from gear.

 

This is close enough to 25%, or 50% with Force Bending|Conveyance, to permit the following analogy. We can treat each of the four ticks of Innervate|Healing Trance as the toss of a fair coin. Heads you proc Force Surge|Resplendence; Tails you don't. You're saying that you "seldom" have Heads more than once when tossing a coin four times. Nonsense.

 

I feel that this is a prime opportunity to prove definitively one way or the other what the actual facts of the matter are.

 

Basic probability has been understood and widely-used for centuries. Reestablishing its validity is no more necessary than reestablishing that 2 + 2 = 4. The calculation of the expected number of procs of Force Surge|Resplendence is simple whether you understand it and valid whether you believe it.

 

RNG isn't a decisive factor, in part because it can't be overcome. For example, I sometimes don't crit on heals that have, with Recklessness|Force Potency, an 85% chance to crit.

 

As I stated if you are not Min/Max you need to keep Force Crit @ 30% while fully buff or even with Force Bending/Conveyance buffing Innervate/Healing Trance you will run into trouble when you get to Healing intesive fights.

 

Your situation has little, if anything, to do with Critical on gear. I'm happy to review a combat log of yours for an operation (please upload it to TORParse and provide the link).

 

Last, echoing something Dreselus wrote in his reply, advice on BIS gear is meant for players fine-tuning gear that is close to BIS. It's not meant for leveling. A fresh 55 Sorcerer|Sage healer with green gear from questing, or with gear that was BIS when 50 was the level cap, should snap up any Arkanian piece for a Sorcerer|Sage healer regardless of its stats other than Willpower.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Orderken

[Nibbon]

Neither I nor Nibbon has said or implied that Critical is "useless". Quite the opposite, in fact -- I'm always careful to say that Critical is a beneficial stat, but, in general, slightly less beneficial than Power.

[snip...]

 

First, thanks Orderken, for basically defending and echoing all my thoughts - otherwise I would have posted earlier. There really isn't much for me to add here and I pretty much fully agree with you.

 

Usually I use much discretion in choosing my words, especially on the forums. Sometimes something gets out of hand and just needs to be said by someone. No one has yet, so I will. SuperGrunt, you sound like you are just a bad healer, sorry. Have you even raided in nightmare operations? or killed any bosses in that difficulty? I don't really know why you'd bother arguing us without having something close to BiS gear in any case. Too many much better healers (not including myself at all in this) have said no crit is the way to go for BiS gear.

 

Sorc/Sage healers need to worry more about being able to best heal in all situations that we will actually encounter in game rather than trying to reach some Max HPS # that will never actually be usable in any actual situation that we will find in game.

 

I also wanted to address that point. I did say you wont be going for Max HPS the entire time of any fight, this is almost true - I'd say DG does require this now (no time for DPS). Anyway, what you say in this quote is wrong - you will have, at the extremely very least, some times where you will max hps (or eHPS if you prefer). When a tank is low health, or anyone for that matter, or everyone, you will want to maximize your HPS to fill everyone back up - that isn't just any situation, it is a rather common one. Nothing will get an individual, or a raid, from low health back to max than HPS (which is basically the entire basis for my theorycrafting, along with that this is the most important and only situation that a healer has to prepare for, that second part is where most of the other healer theorycrafters disagree with me).

Edited July 31, 2013 by Nibbon

[Darth_Dreselus]

Sometimes as a Healer you have to sit back and realize that you are not Superman and can't save everyone

 

After successfully solo healing HM Terror pre 2.0 and 4 sets of Missiles from HM Titan since I refuse any such realisation.

 

I don't give out my character's names on forums as I feel from past experience that this leads to griefing and drama.

 

Or rather you are actually afraid that someone would check. The rest of us here have no issues being open about our achievements.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Darth_Dreselus

[SuperGrunt]

Neither I nor Nibbon has said or implied that Critical is "useless". Quite the opposite, in fact -- I'm always careful to say that Critical is a beneficial stat, but, in general, slightly less beneficial than Power.

Actually what you have said or rather implied repeatedly is that you don't need to add Crit on gear not that it is useless on the character sheet, just on gear. While I maintain that you want Crit on your character sheet to be about 30% which is what it should be while buffed in 72 mods with 0 crit on gear. Meaning that at lower gear you should have some crit.

I don't believe this. When naked, your Critical chance is 16% with a proper allocation of skill points, the bonus from Legacy/Companion, and Imperial Agent|Smuggler buff. Add to this datacrons, a proper stim, and gear from the Elite gear (Arkanian) or Basic gear vendor, and your Critical chance will exceed 23% even with zero Critical from gear.

 

This is close enough to 25%, or 50% with Force Bending|Conveyance, to permit the following analogy. We can treat each of the four ticks of Innervate|Healing Trance as the toss of a fair coin. Heads you proc Force Surge|Resplendence; Tails you don't. You're saying that you "seldom" have Heads more than once when tossing a coin four times. Nonsense.

So basically you state that based on coin flips you can accurately state that a RNG is gonna provide reliable results. ROFL ! I am a Video Game Design graduate, and self-employed Video Game Programmer and I can tell you that a RNG is going to crap on someones parade 50% of the time, and that 50% of the time isn't all for one character when you are on a MMO b/c the RNG that generates the #'s is server based not local.

 

I am also looking at my character sheet of my Sorc who has all the Legacy buffs from all of my chracters, all the Datacrons, and is currently Heal Speced. She has 488 Willpower, and 17.59% Crit Chance (5% Base, +1.59% from Willpower, +11% from Skills/Buffs) yeah forgot to right click off the Sorc & Agent buffs, but that just proves my point even more.

Basic probability has been understood and widely-used for centuries. Reestablishing its validity is no more necessary than reestablishing that 2 + 2 = 4. The calculation of the expected number of procs of Force Surge|Resplendence is simple whether you understand it and valid whether you believe it.

 

RNG isn't a decisive factor, in part because it can't be overcome. For example, I sometimes don't crit on heals that have, with Recklessness|Force Potency, an 85% chance to crit.

 

Your situation has little, if anything, to do with Critical on gear. I'm happy to review a combat log of yours for an operation (please upload it to TORParse and provide the link).

Actually the situation I described was in fact something that happened to me, you can claim it happened for what ever reason you want to attest it to but I feel that it was due to not enough Force Crit on my character sheet.

Last, echoing something Dreselus wrote in his reply, advice on BIS gear is meant for players fine-tuning gear that is close to BIS. It's not meant for leveling. A fresh 55 Sorcerer|Sage healer with green gear from questing, or with gear that was BIS when 50 was the level cap, should snap up any Arkanian piece for a Sorcerer|Sage healer regardless of its stats other than Willpower.

You just pretty much stated exactly what I was driveing at that Crit is good on gear that isn't 72+, with the difference being that I actually put a percentage that should be attempted to maintain as a bare minimum for when you are trying to Min/Max Arkanian and lower quality gear.

[SuperGrunt]

After successfully solo healing HM Terror pre 2.0 and 4 sets of Missiles from HM Titan since I refuse any such realisation.

 

 

 

Or rather you are actually afraid that someone would check. The rest of us here have no issues being open about our achievements.

 

Or rather I have actually been attacked in game by Forum Trolls before in other games and have learned to keep some anonymity in between the forums and in game., as I stated in the post which you quoted, and you conveniently snipped out, send me a PM and we can get together on The Harbinger and run some Ops and you can see that what I am saying is actually correct.

[Orderken]

So basically you state that based on coin flips you can accurately state that a RNG is gonna provide reliable results. ROFL ! I am a Video Game Design graduate, and self-employed Video Game Programmer and I can tell you that a RNG is going to crap on someones parade 50% of the time, and that 50% of the time isn't all for one character when you are on a MMO b/c the RNG that generates the #'s is server based not local.

 

I am also looking at my character sheet of my Sorc who has all the Legacy buffs from all of my chracters, all the Datacrons, and is currently Heal Speced. She has 488 Willpower, and 17.59% Crit Chance (5% Base, +1.59% from Willpower, +11% from Skills/Buffs) yeah forgot to right click off the Sorc & Agent buffs, but that just proves my point even more.

 

Each of the above observations is incorrect or irrelevant. In light of the language barrier that you're experience, we have two options to proceed.

 

First, you could provide a link to a combat log, and I'll fulfill my offer to catalogue how you might improve your healing or how your raid might incur less unnecessary damage.

 

Second, you may continue to claim that you're right while simple math is wrong and everyone else is deceiving you to keep you down. In this case, you have no reason to read or participate in this thread. This option will please everyone.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Orderken

[SuperGrunt]

First, thanks Orderken, for basically defending and echoing all my thoughts - otherwise I would have posted earlier. There really isn't much for me to add here and I pretty much fully agree with you.

 

Usually I use much discretion in choosing my words, especially on the forums. Sometimes something gets out of hand and just needs to be said by someone. No one has yet, so I will. SuperGrunt, you sound like you are just a bad healer, sorry. Have you even raided in nightmare operations? or killed any bosses in that difficulty? I don't really know why you'd bother arguing us without having something close to BiS gear in any case. Too many much better healers (not including myself at all in this) have said no crit is the way to go for BiS gear.

 

Thanks for assuming that I am a bad healer based on 0 evidence. I am in a casual guild and my Sorc was until recently in what I feel was a very Casual guild where some people where more worried about having fun than killing content so nope I have as yet not been able to kill NiM mode bosses, but that does not mean by any stretch of the imagination that I am a bad healer, just that I am not a Hardcore A-hole like you seem to be trying to prove yourself to be.

 

I also wanted to address that point. I did say you wont be going for Max HPS the entire time of any fight, this is almost true - I'd say DG does require this now (no time for DPS). Anyway, what you say in this quote is wrong - you will have, at the extremely very least, some times where you will max hps (or eHPS if you prefer). When a tank is low health, or anyone for that matter, or everyone, you will want to maximize your HPS to fill everyone back up - that isn't just any situation, it is a rather common one. Nothing will get an individual, or a raid, from low health back to max than HPS (which is basically the entire basis for my theorycrafting, along with that this is the most important and only situation that a healer has to prepare for, that second part is where most of the other healer theorycrafters disagree with me).

 

Far be it for me to point out holes in your theorycrafting, but you A. have stated that you are not a Sorc/Sage healer, and B. I AM a Sorc healer, and also have a Sage Alt.

 

Besides the point you are stating that you want 0 crit on gear and only worrying about BIS gear. While not everyone has BiS gear and could actually use some hard numbers to go off of for gearing at lower levels of gear. Which if you take your head out of your butt and realize that I have actually given to you, based off of game play. Instead of stating that people want 0 crit on gear you should be stating that 30% crit is optimal, and that at 72+ gear level with Main Stat Artifact Augments you need 0 crit on gear. Is it really so hard to admit that someone else has a point which is not actually contrary to what you are saying but is actually complimentary?

 

I have even gone out of my way and just created a Generic Sorc on Mr. Robot with Full Arkanian gear, and legitimate Augments for a fresh lvl 55 of Prototype Resolve 28 Augments in all slots. With 27 Crit on gear (from the Matrix Cube) you get 24.76% crit chance. with 3116.9 Willpower. This includes all Datacrons, and Legacy boosts as well. I feel that it is an accurate representation of in game stats as it started out naked at 488.6 Willpower while buffed without the stim wich is about the same as my Sorc had on line, I did not see the .6 though so I will have to assume that it is the same with Mr Robot using Floats and SWTOR displaying Ints. (Programming terminology for different number data types Ints being whole numbers and Floats having decimals) I even went and changed all the Augments over to Artifact quality and it only increased the Crit Chance to 24.88% here are the links to both builds.

 

Generic Sorc 1

 

Generic Sorc 2

[SuperGrunt]

Each of the above observations is incorrect or irrelevant. In light of the language barrier that you're experience, we have two options to proceed.

 

First, you could provide a link to a combat log, and I'll fulfill my offer to catalogue how you might improve your healing or how your raid might incur less unnecessary damage.

 

Second, you may continue to claim that you're right while simple math is wrong and everyone else is deceiving you to keep you down. In this case, you have no reason to read or participate in this thread. This option will please everyone.

 

Right now I am playing on my laptop and don't run TOR Parse when I do Ops, and I have stated that I will go on Ops with people, I will state now that I will not at this time nor any other upload my Combat logs to TOR Parse and add a link here to someone who wants to try and "Help" me when they can't even admit that what I am saying might actually be right for the level of gear at which I am stating it for. I neither need nor want your help "Making me a better healer" I do just fine as is and I have been complemented repeatedly by my guild mates as to my skill level of healing. Just to point out how good a healer I am, my guild on Prophecy of the Five was the first Casual guild to have full cleared HM TFB & S&V on that server. Granted this was not a singular effort, if you really want some of my singular effort achievements I can explain those from pre 2.0 but I don't have videos to prove them so you would have to kinda take my word for it, as my most notable ones included PUGs from GF and I did not choose to remain in contact with my group members when I had to do more than my fair share of the work.

 

 

***EDIT*** As a side note, most theorycrafters state for all levels of gear, mostly b/c of the Specs that they are talking about get Auto Crits while we Sorc Healers only get an increased Crit Chance from a buff that we consume. I am simply putting out the Crit Chance percentage for all gear levels to strive for, no need for such hostility.

Edited August 1, 2013 by SuperGrunt