stealth, sap, seethe

[Anishor]

AoE taunt them. Then laugh in their face while you have full resolve and 12k ravage them.

 

Taunt's keep them in combat?

[Helig]

I know but this gets me completly enraged, sorry all for the hard words

It's not the hard words. It's that you accuse people of ignorance about the Assassin class, while demonstrating the same (if not greater) ignorance about other classes.

Taunt's keep them in combat?

They put both of you in combat, rendering you unsappable. Provided the AoE taunt hits him of course.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Helig

[Ycoga]

This technique is controversial,... It's no different than a sorc using barrier, or a sniper using cover. The class is given the ability to do this, so they'll do it. Telling stealthers to not sap heal in a warzone is the same as telling any other class not to use any other ability, it's not going to happen.

 

Logic failure! All classes have access to out-of-combat recovery mechanics.

 

The assumption seems to be that 'a duel' counts as 'combat' until one party loses or surrenders. While the duel is active, the system should not flag someone as 'out of combat'.

 

However, how does BW fix this? They need stealthers to be flagged as 'out of combat' after using certain stealth abilities. A solution might be to prevent the stealther from attacking for X seconds after stealthing... not ideal.

Another fix might be to adjust the mechanics so that the stealther does not go 'out of combat'. Instead, they get speed, maneuverability and health regen bonuses that mimic being out of combat, while the relevant ability is active - but the 'in combat' flag is active and they can't use seethe.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Ycoga

[HexDecimalUK]

AoE taunt them. Then laugh in their face while you have full resolve and 12k ravage them.

 

Good to know, for my juggy at least, but is this shed able by force shroud?

 

I think all the rage and hate speak as kind of amusing but still no real argument as to why a none healer can get to heal mid fight, like i said when sins pull this i just feel like a sucker for not picking the class that can tank AND self heal not to mention replenish manner, while I, a healer who picked the healing class for mid combat heals will over infact generate heat still. logic

 

And im not ************ about the class im questioning what i see as being an irrefutable exploit that this class happens to do.

[Leafy_Bug]

Good to know, for my juggy at least, but is this shed able by force shroud?

 

I think all the rage and hate speak as kind of amusing but still no real argument as to why a none healer can get to heal mid fight, like i said when sins pull this i just feel like a sucker for not picking the class that can tank AND self heal not to mention replenish manner, while I, a healer who picked the healing class for mid combat heals will over infact generate heat still. logic

 

And im not ************ about the class im questioning what i see as being an irrefutable exploit that this class happens to do.

 

 

 

Are you asking if ravage is shieldable by shroud? Ravage is not a force attack, it is white damage, white damage goes through shroud if that is the imp speak for resilience. Plenty of tutorials out there on what the shadow can do and not do.

[HexDecimalUK]

Logic failure! All classes have access to out-of-combat recovery mechanics.

 

The assumption seems to be that 'a duel' counts as 'combat' until one party loses or surrenders. While the duel is active, the system should not flag someone as 'out of combat'.

 

However, how does BW fix this? They need stealthers to be flagged as 'out of combat' after using certain stealth abilities. A solution might be to prevent the stealther from attacking for X seconds after stealthing... not ideal.

Another fix might be to adjust the mechanics so that the stealther does not go 'out of combat'. Instead, they get speed, maneuverability and health regen bonuses that mimic being out of combat, while the relevant ability is active - but the 'in combat' flag is active and they can't use seethe.

 

 

as i have said, a debuff caused by vanishing from pvp combat that prevents out of combat abilitys for a set and fair time, maybe 8 seconds?, kind of like the sorcs shield debuf. or it could just simply not break pvp combat. it is not exactly rocket science.

[cycao]

And im not ************ about the class im questioning what i see as being an irrefutable exploit that this class happens to do.

 

While I find it shady I do not think you can call it an exploit.

[Leafy_Bug]

as i have said, a debuff caused by vanishing from pvp combat that prevents out of combat abilitys for a set and fair time, maybe 8 seconds?, kind of like the sorcs shield debuf. or it could just simply not break pvp combat. it is not exactly rocket science.

 

 

You are asking for a stealth class to give up an escape mechanic which defines the foundation of their class. Stealth classes have always created controversy in games, the grapevine is full of people asking for nerfs, operatives and shadows suffer enough in other areas, this needs to be left as it is.

[Helig]

You are asking for a stealth class to give up an escape mechanic which defines the foundation of their class. Stealth classes have always created controversy in games, the grapevine is full of people asking for nerfs, operatives and shadows suffer enough in other areas, this needs to be left as it is.

Well, I feel like stealth classes are indeed entitled to combat stealth. However, I don't think vanish skills should instantly drop combat mode, at least in PvP.

 

Combat mode should be dropped on general grounds.

[Leafy_Bug]

Well, I feel like stealth classes are indeed entitled to combat stealth. However, I don't think vanish skills should instantly drop combat mode, at least in PvP.

 

Combat mode should be dropped on general grounds.

 

There is a prerequisite for force cloak to take you out of combat. If you have a dot on you, good luck being out of combat. Sure, you can use resilience before cloak but i doubt in a duel you keep resilience for the force cloak combo. Again, usage of multiple abilities to do something a stealth class should do. Is it fair in duels? Arguably a very debatable skill and before the duel rules should be established.

 

I only sap and vanish against shadows/assassins/operatives. Any duel against any other class I do not stealth and sap, but if I am ganked, I will stealth and spin kick to even the odds.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[Helig]

There is a prerequisite for force cloak to take you out of combat. If you have a dot on you, good luck being out of combat. Sure, you can use resilience before cloak but i doubt in a duel you keep resilience for the force cloak combo. Again, usage of multiple abilities to do something a stealth class should do. Is it fair in duels? Arguably a very debatable skill and before the duel rules should be established.

I think that "combat/not in combat" is more of a PvE mechanic, which skirts into PvP with out of combat CCs. And I think they should be just that - *literal* out of combat CCs. You stand around, you get mindmazed, you have to stand there staring at the floor for 10 seconds.

 

You should not be mazable when someone just stabbed you in the arse with a giant polesaber and dropped a smoke bomb.

 

The vanish move should be used to break focus fire, escape, or reopen. It really should not be used to essentially reset the fight in a one-sided manner.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Helig

[Aluvi]

For duels, this ability alone makes a good assassin unbeatable. At the highest levels of play, an assassin that does this in a duel will win, guaranteed. The outgrown problem that I have with this is that it makes dueling tournaments kind of pointless. The best assassin, not the best player, will win. Its much less common that this is an issue in warzones. A simple fix would be to make anyone who is currently dueling stuck in combat regardless of what is happening in the duel. Could be a nice quality of life addition.

[Helig]

For duels, this ability alone makes a good assassin unbeatable. At the highest levels of play, an assassin that does this in a duel will win, guaranteed. The outgrown problem that I have with this is that it makes dueling tournaments kind of pointless. The best assassin, not the best player, will win. Its much less common that this is an issue in warzones. A simple fix would be to make anyone who is currently dueling stuck in combat regardless of what is happening in the duel. Could be a nice quality of life addition.

Open world concerns me more than duels, to be honest. Vanish should not instantly drop PvP combat, only PvE.

[Evolixe]

Good to know, for my juggy at least, but is this shed able by force shroud?

 

I think all the rage and hate speak as kind of amusing but still no real argument as to why a none healer can get to heal mid fight, like i said when sins pull this i just feel like a sucker for not picking the class that can tank AND self heal not to mention replenish manner, while I, a healer who picked the healing class for mid combat heals will over infact generate heat still. logic

 

And im not ************ about the class im questioning what i see as being an irrefutable exploit that this class happens to do.

 

No, taunts are physical. Shroud does not prevent you from being taunted.

[foxmob]

Logic failure! All classes have access to out-of-combat recovery mechanics.

 

The assumption seems to be that 'a duel' counts as 'combat' until one party loses or surrenders. While the duel is active, the system should not flag someone as 'out of combat'..

 

I agree up to this point. beyond this, it's meaningless. duels are meaningless. you cannot ask or expect BW to rework a spec so that they duel properly. and frankly, with all the other crap that's wrong with this game (see 54 crafted bolster mechanic), I would be upset with BW if they did do something about this.

[HexDecimalUK]

I agree up to this point. beyond this, it's meaningless. duels are meaningless. you cannot ask or expect BW to rework a spec so that they duel properly. and frankly, with all the other crap that's wrong with this game (see 54 crafted bolster mechanic), I would be upset with BW if they did do something about this.

 

Because reprogramming vanish to not break PVP combat is just too far beyond any previouse bug they have fixed to requir adressing. I'm sorry but BW made the buisness decision to provide and sell subscriptions to PVP servers and as far as im concerned that obliges them to provide support for what this intails. Read the discription, it promises open world combat. that means it has to be correctly balanced overwise what am i paying for? because its not whats in the discription kiddo, why should i start this game and go out into the world areas knowing that any sin can walk over me all thanks to this exploit? And excuse me but if its worth putting in the game its worth doing correctly some of us actually pay for this, im glad your happy grinding warzones and dailys or whatever part of the game appeals to you but why should the parts that i enjoy be overlooked? what makes you so special and who are you to proclaim that my concerns should take a back seat?

[Astarica]

Is someone seriously suggesting to make Vanish not take you out of combat in PvP just so that Assassins don't win every 1on1 dueling tournament out there?

 

If Vanish didn't get you out of combat in PvP that kind of defeats the whole purpose of using the ability. It's only super cheesy for 1on1 duel due to the fact that there can be no other possible opponent. In a WZ, time is against the stealth class. It's not enough he beat you but that he has to beat you before reinforcements arrive.

[HexDecimalUK]

Is someone seriously suggesting to make Vanish not take you out of combat in PvP just so that Assassins don't win every 1on1 dueling tournament out there?

 

If Vanish didn't get you out of combat in PvP that kind of defeats the whole purpose of using the ability. It's only super cheesy for 1on1 duel due to the fact that there can be no other possible opponent. In a WZ, time is against the stealth class. It's not enough he beat you but that he has to beat you before reinforcements arrive.

 

I have both a sin and an op on the back burner and do understand the need for vanish, but i dont see how being out of combat is needed in the equation, i would suport being able to sap because you are in stealth, its the seethe part that annoys me, could a simple rule change that says you may sap as long as your in stealth regardless of combat state against players not be viable? after all its not like you have to go far to get out of combat according to the base global rule system, LOS and seethe up when combat breaks naturally?

[Astarica]

I have both a sin and an op on the back burner and do understand the need for vanish, but i dont see how being out of combat is needed in the equation, i would suport being able to sap because you are in stealth, its the seethe part that annoys me, could a simple rule change that says you may sap as long as your in stealth regardless of combat state against players not be viable? after all its not like you have to go far to get out of combat according to the base global rule system, LOS and seethe up when combat breaks naturally?

 

If you can sap people in combat that's going to be a much bigger advantage to any stealther than the occasionally sap & seethe party trick for duels. It'd fundamentally change how you defend a node. Right now, you start out away from node(~30m) and then just try to immediately put yourself in combat because that protects you from sap 100% of the time, and you obviously still want to be close to the node as soon as sap is eliminated. If you can sap someone in combat, this means a lone defender will always be forced to defend from a far away position and that gives a huge advantage to any attacker, even if a stealther isn't present since the defender cannot know that. Put it this way, it'd be like being able to cast Whirlwind instantly without a CD as long as nobody found you. Sure you can still only CC one guy at a time but that's an insane advantage when used correctly.

[foxmob]

Because reprogramming vanish to not break PVP combat is just too far beyond any previouse bug they have fixed to requir adressing. I'm sorry but BW made the buisness decision to provide and sell subscriptions to PVP servers and as far as im concerned that obliges them to provide support for what this intails. Read the discription, it promises open world combat. that means it has to be correctly balanced overwise what am i paying for? because its not whats in the discription kiddo, why should i start this game and go out into the world areas knowing that any sin can walk over me all thanks to this exploit? And excuse me but if its worth putting in the game its worth doing correctly some of us actually pay for this, im glad your happy grinding warzones and dailys or whatever part of the game appeals to you but why should the parts that i enjoy be overlooked? what makes you so special and who are you to proclaim that my concerns should take a back seat?

 

open world pvp and duels are a minute part of the game's pvp. if they spend one flaming second even THINKING about this before they get their horsecrap bolster issues resolved (see wut I did thar?), then I'm going to rage. do you -- understand -- the words -- that are coming out -- of my mouf...kiddo? I didn't say I thought it was a good mechanic. it's low on the totem pole.

Edited June 4, 2013 by foxmob

[Helig]

Is someone seriously suggesting to make Vanish not take you out of combat in PvP just so that Assassins don't win every 1on1 dueling tournament out there?

 

If Vanish didn't get you out of combat in PvP that kind of defeats the whole purpose of using the ability. It's only super cheesy for 1on1 duel due to the fact that there can be no other possible opponent. In a WZ, time is against the stealth class. It's not enough he beat you but that he has to beat you before reinforcements arrive.

Weird. I thought the whole purpose of this skill was breaking focus fire, giving healers breathing space, escaping a tight situation, closing an otherwise unclosable gap.

 

Combat mode should decay as in normal conditions in PvP. You don't hit/debuff them, they don't hit/debuff you for X seconds, congrats, you're out of combat.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Helig

[mrdert]

I always felt that 'stealth, sab, seathe' is pretty wonk.

 

 

Not sure why it is in that game in that manner. I think it's silly. However, it's been like that forever, and it's never going to change (like speeder bikes causing you to lose Focus target).

 

 

Acceptance here is the only sane path (sadly). What you posted about OP isn't going change.

 

Shut your dirty little mouth kettlebell. The stealth, sap, seethe mechanic fits assassins perfectly.

[HexDecimalUK]

Weird. I thought the whole purpose of this skill was breaking focus fire, giving healers breathing space, escaping a tight situation, closing an otherwise unclosable gap.

 

Combat mode should decay as in normal conditions in PvP. You don't hit/debuff them, they don't hit/debuff you for X seconds, congrats, you're out of combat.

 

yeah, this is exactly what i mean, its fine that thgey vanish in PVP, but in PVP it shouldnt end combat instantly, removing that from PVP combat would prevent this abuse of the system.

 

And fixing this whether it be a adding a debuff to vanish that prevents seethe and lasts 8 seconds or just not breaking combat state from players instantly at least in the world and by extension duels can not be even close to how much work bolster needs. i hardly think it will delay the fix by too long assuming it will even be the same staff department that addresses it.

 

Don't forget sins and ops still have sneak and force sprint to get away untill the combat state has decayed if they are likely to loose and even shed the dots in the process, if a loosing sin wants to escape then cool at least I know he is about and can choose whether to also disengage or seethe also.

Edited June 4, 2013 by HexDecimalUK

[Aluvi]

I guess what bugs me is, if an assassin can sap and use their out of combat heal, why shouldn't I be able to use my six second mez and heal? This is a pretty easy fix. Being in combat does not break stealth, but it does prevent re stealthing and out of combat healing via seethe or similar abilities. The solution then, is simple: casting sap should put the caster in combat with the normal rate of decay, but only damage will pop them out of stealth. I can't see how anyone could argue with this solution.

[Technohic]

I guess what bugs me is, if an assassin can sap and use their out of combat heal, why shouldn't I be able to use my six second mez and heal? This is a pretty easy fix. Being in combat does not break stealth, but it does prevent re stealthing and out of combat healing via seethe or similar abilities. The solution then, is simple: casting sap should put the caster in combat with the normal rate of decay, but only damage will pop them out of stealth. I can't see how anyone could argue with this solution.

 

I could live with that being the case to where you are in combat so long as your affects are on a target; but I have seen enough when I played DF on my smuggler to see where DOTs kept you in combat even after dieing. If that hasn't been fixed; it would need to be for this.