KhalDrogoe Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 I found out why there is such an imbalance in PvP. It's the TANKS. When everyone rerolled Jugg/Guardian FOTM smash/sweep, they now have the ability to mitigate huge amounts of damage even as a dps. Guard/Taunt, when on a team of 4+ competent smashers can mitigate enough damage to keep them alive BEYOND their natural personal character CD's. This damage mitigation, not sure on the "exact" math but up to 80% mind you, is also cause for healers being able to live so long and considered "OP". I think healing is working as intended, it's just the tanks that need re-worked. It's time to change how these mechanics work in PvP. I can't think of any other game where taunt can mitigate so much player damage in PvP. I'm not too savvy with the Jugg/Guardian skill tree, but maybe make all the damage mitigation/taunt/guard ability higher on the tanking skill tree would be a possible solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycao Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Did this thread start out as a smash QQ than full on morph into a tank QQ...clever girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBRGhostRider Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 I found out why there is such an imbalance in PvP. It's the TANKS. When everyone rerolled Jugg/Guardian FOTM smash/sweep, they now have the ability to mitigate huge amounts of damage even as a dps. Guard/Taunt, when on a team of 4+ competent smashers can mitigate enough damage to keep them alive BEYOND their natural personal character CD's. This damage mitigation, not sure on the "exact" math but up to 80% mind you, is also cause for healers being able to live so long and considered "OP". I think healing is working as intended, it's just the tanks that need re-worked. It's time to change how these mechanics work in PvP. I can't think of any other game where taunt can mitigate so much player damage in PvP. I'm not too savvy with the Jugg/Guardian skill tree, but maybe make all the damage mitigation/taunt/guard ability higher on the tanking skill tree would be a possible solution. Not sure if trolling... First off, you cannot guard as smash spec. You have to be in soresu (tank stance) to guard, and that cripples your damage. Secondly, taunts are available to tanking class dps trees, just as heals are available to healing class dps trees (sorc, operative, merc). Nothing wrong here. Typically most protection score comes through guard, and lesser through taunts, so it is ok. Also, unlike multiple heals stacking together on the same target, multiple taunts do not stack together, which makes them a bit useless at times (in a PUG, when you do not know who else is tanking/taunting). Having 80% damage mitigation on everyone is not possible. Having a large mitigation (guard + intercede + aoe taunt) on a single target is possible for a very limited amount of time (6 secs). Tank + heal is very strong yes, but you can separate them, cc the tank, and burn down the healer. Not sure what else tanks are supposed to do anyway? I mean our damage is cr@p anyway, and we cannot heal others. Do you want us to go back to the pile of lards that we were... waiting for a PT pyro to burn us down quick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smuglebunny Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 You are not correct BUT I understand why you think that. Its because HEALING is OP atm and with a bunch of high health and armor tankish players running around the healers heal bigger and have more HP pool to work with. Seems like they never die. I understand your thoughts on this but its the healing not the tanks. Also tanks shields now mitigate more kinds of damage so they seem tankier, that plus the healing = I know where you are coming from. Its a combo, but tanks on their own are still weaksauce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-RANDLE Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Did this thread start out as a smash QQ than full on morph into a tank QQ...clever girl. Or someone discovered my battle tank build is po-pimpin'. I am glad it is still unknown to most.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falgarr Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 (edited) Juggs/Guardians are too good. High damage resistance, high damage, lots of utility. Their pretty much the best class in PvP right now in almost all if not all situations besides healing. Oh but Bioware wouldn't dare nerf a lightsaber class. I mean like come on, they gotz a lightsaber so we always make them OP. Edited May 30, 2013 by falgarr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycao Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Juggs/Guardians are too good. High damage resistance, high damage, lots of utility. Their pretty much the best class in PvP right now in almost all if not all situations besides healing. Oh but Bioware wouldn't dare nerf a lightsaber class. I mean like come on, they gotz a lightsaber so we always make them OP. Are you stoned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vikassi Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Did this thread start out as a smash QQ than full on morph into a tank QQ...clever girl. clever girl .. ROFL! love that form Jurassic park! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shikyo Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Not sure if I agree with the OP, but I do think taunts should be locked to the tank stance much like guard is. To coin the DPS off heal analogy in this thread: A DPS that off heals does so with greatly reduced healing output and in most cases ( I say this keeping in mind Lightning spec'd Sorcs) their action/force takes a huge hit for doing so too. Taunts, cost no action/force and whether a tank spec or not, they work exactly the same. That is me pointing out the imbalance in the analogy provided about DPS with off heals to DPS with off tanks. A better analogy for DPS/Tank classes to DPS/Healer classes: DPS that share a Tank spec still have access to some (Not all as most tank specs in the game gain at least 1 NEW defensive cooldown by specing tank) of the defensive cooldowns just like DPS that have healing specs have access to some (not all) of the healing abilities. So again, just my opinion, but taunts should be locked to tanking stances. Is it game breaking? No, but is a imbalance, even if it is a small one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skolops Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 I sincerely don't know what game the "healing is too strong" crowd is playing. I half wonder (no troll or insult intended) whether the dps is just subpar on some of the servers, because on the ones I play on and watch survigal and kills are even. Good healers and tanks will keep their team up, but good dps will bring people down even through that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islander Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 I sincerely don't know what game the "healing is too strong" crowd is playing. I half wonder (no troll or insult intended) whether the dps is just subpar on some of the servers, because on the ones I play on and watch survigal and kills are even. Good healers and tanks will keep their team up, but good dps will bring people down even through that. Well to be honest, you and I play on P5, so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimeStax Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 (edited) It's amazing how uninformed players admit to being uninformed and still make posts claiming they know THE PROBLEM with PvP as well as the solution. The OP was probably tunnel-visioning on some Tank standing right next to his healer last night and got frustrated cause he couldn't kill him. Edited May 30, 2013 by DimeStax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kovaos Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Did this thread start out as a smash QQ than full on morph into a tank QQ...clever girl. Ha! I had to read it twice to determine what was going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skolops Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 One possible explanation: some servers seem obsessed with DOT dps specs. Now dot specs played well and with coordination can be lethaly strong, but dot specs played on an average level or not played with enough single target emphasis are a healers dream... they dont kill and pad heal numbers. P5, as one example, has very limited usage of dot specs and has much more direct damage than in some places I have seen. It makes a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycao Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 One possible explanation: some servers seem obsessed with DOT dps specs. Now dot specs played well and with coordination can be lethaly strong, but dot specs played on an average level or not played with enough single target emphasis are a healers dream... they dont kill and pad heal numbers. P5, as one example, has very limited usage of dot specs and has much more direct damage than in some places I have seen. It makes a difference. Yeah very few dot specs are played on P5. I feel like im the only madness sin (though it is a hybrid) but you are right that some dot players want to pad the stats which is very not good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 (edited) It's amazing how uninformed players admit to being uninformed and still make posts claiming they know THE PROBLEM with PvP as well as the solution. The OP was probably tunnel-visioning on some Tank standing right next to his healer last night and got frustrated cause he couldn't kill him. The funny thing is - you can SEE the mitigated damage at the end of the match. It's super rare for me to be in a match where even 100k damage is mitigated. Usually its like 18-30k. When people are putting up 700k in damage, it's just an irrelevant number that's clearly not the cause of issues. And Juggs/Guardians can't guard outside of the tank stance, so its not like they're putting up 700k smash spamming while guarding a healer. So no, tanks aren't the issue - and to be honest given how challenging it is to play a tank *properly* I'd rather people stop spec'ing tank. 9/10 "tanks" I see are guys in Soresu form who don't guard anyone, don't taunt anyone and do absolute fail damage in the match. Only way they could be more useless would be to go totally AFK. Right now tanks *can* be good, but most are *NOT* good and the spec should be left to more skilled players. Edited May 30, 2013 by dcgregorya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-RANDLE Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 The funny thing is - you can SEE the mitigated damage at the end of the match. It's super rare for me to be in a match where even 100k damage is mitigated. Usually its like 18-30k. When people are putting up 700k in damage, it's just an irrelevant number that's clearly not the cause of issues. And Juggs/Guardians can't guard outside of the tank stance, so its not like they're putting up 700k smash spamming while guarding a healer. So no, tanks aren't the issue - and to be honest given how challenging it is to play a tank *properly* I'd rather people stop spec'ing tank. 9/10 "tanks" I see are guys in Soresu form who don't guard anyone, don't taunt anyone and do absolute fail damage in the match. Only way they could be more useless would be to go totally AFK. Right now tanks *can* be good, but most are *NOT* good and the spec should be left to more skilled players. Weeeelllllll, my personal best is 504K damage, 325k pro, 100k heals in a single match, so there are some builds that enable you to put up more than solid numbers while guarding people I also have nasty burst on MS/Dispatch.... I have been advocating for people to try, what I call my "battle tank" build, for a few patches now. It's the most balanced and versatile build for this class... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 (edited) Weeeelllllll, my personal best is 504K damage, 325k pro, 100k heals in a single match, so there are some builds that enable you to put up more than solid numbers while guarding people I also have nasty burst on MS/Dispatch.... I have been advocating for people to try, what I call my "battle tank" build, for a few patches now. It's the most balanced and versatile build for this class... Yeah but I question whether you'd have gotten that much protection if someone just had the bright idea to push you away from the healer and CC you. The range is only 10m or 15m if I recall. I just don't see tanks as broken even if high numbers are theoretically possible they're definitely not prevalent. Edited May 30, 2013 by dcgregorya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-RANDLE Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 (edited) double post my bad... damn cell phones... Edited May 31, 2013 by L-RANDLE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykomyke Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 (edited) Did this thread start out as a smash QQ than full on morph into a tank QQ...clever girl. You forgot the obligatory picture/video link when you use that phrase! Shame on you! http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/057/949/CleverGirl_Fullpic_1.gif?1278398664 Oops, I almost forgot this video as well. Edited May 30, 2013 by Sykomyke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-RANDLE Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Yeah but I question whether you'd have gotten that much protection if someone just had the bright idea to push you away from the healer and CC you. The range is only 10m or 15m if I recall. I just don't see tanks as broken even if high numbers are theoretically possible they're definitely not prevalent. That's Voidstar 4 you..... I was on the door and guardian leaping while the healer was pillar hupingg. That healer hit 1.2 mil. No doubt it was the reason, but I am sure the enemies liked eating 6K dispatches too....:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthRaika Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Tanks are great as they are and so is taunting, however tanks are the reason why premade vs pug is just stupid and we need premade matching. A group of 4 low skill players but with good gear and the right composition should beat most pugs and this is the main reason many people love to premade regular but avoid ranked. I don't advocate changing tanks but I think they are largely the reason why premade matching is needed. Also, for skilled pvprs there is really no point to play this game in a premade. Most of your matches will be runovers. In the past I have always premaded a fair amount but in swtor I only solo q and I will keep doing it this way until premade matching is put into place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_Spectre Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Not sure if I agree with the OP, but I do think taunts should be locked to the tank stance much like guard is. And...So again, just my opinion, but taunts should be locked to tanking stances. Is it game breaking? No, but is a imbalance, even if it is a small one. I couldn't agree more. Taunts, especially AoE taunts should be associated with the stances only. If a Jugg or Guardian are in the tank stance, then they have access to all the taunts. Maybe the single target taunt could be left outside of the stance, but the AoE taunt, sure. I could live with that and I'm a tanker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimeStax Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 (edited) Weeeelllllll, my personal best is 504K damage, 325k pro, 100k heals in a single match, so there are some builds that enable you to put up more than solid numbers while guarding people I also have nasty burst on MS/Dispatch.... I have been advocating for people to try, what I call my "battle tank" build, for a few patches now. It's the most balanced and versatile build for this class... No one wants to try your spec because it's bad. You're not a tank, you're a DPS in tank stance guarding someone only for protection numbers because it's probably harder to heal you than it is to just heal themselves. You put out 200-300k more damage a match than a geared and specced tank but you and your "Guardee" are like 5 times easier to kill because you don't have the CC tanks have or the extra mitigation from gear. You're failing to grasp the idea of why a tank is called a TANK; I'll give you a clue though, it's not because they have 6k Dispatches. Edited May 30, 2013 by DimeStax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnzoForMe Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 No one wants to try your spec because it's bad. You're not a tank, you're a DPS in tank stance guarding someone only for protection numbers because it's probably harder to heal you than it is to just heal themselves. You put out 200-300k more damage a match than a geared and specced tank but you're like 5 times easier to kill because you don't have the CC control tanks have or the extra mitigation from gear. You're failing to grasp the idea of why a tank is called a TANK; I'll give you a clue though, it's not because they have 6k Dispatches. This. You can try a hybrid spec in regs, but in a ranked situation where teams know how to focus fire you would be one squishy meatshield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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