Healers in PvP - resources no longer needed?

[MusicRider]

Regarding ROOF. Sages can easily go ROOF if not careful and proactive. There is always a competition between max hps and force management. In a bit more detail, salvation is resource hungry; benevolence gives slightly higher hps and it is fast cast but at the same time it is a force Gargantua, while on the other hand deliverance is force friendly but not as effective as benevolence; do you cast faster/instant salvation or use the counters for noble sac.... it all depends on the dynamics of the situation and the status of your force pool. Scoundrel healers have an easy force management at the moment without sacrificing much of their hps, they can HOT the whole team in a short amount of time without losing any energy. Can't speak for commandos as I haven't played one.

[Sheemie]

The reason people think healing is OP is that reg WZ are extremely unbalanced. The reason many people say it is a L2P issue is that in ranked pvp where you have similar skill level and proper team composition (2 tanks, 2 healers, and 4 Dps) the ballence is the best this game has seen so far. However in regular WZ you will hardly ever see 2 teams with a good composition and skill lvl ballence. While the op may be a very competent dps the problem lies in the other dps on his team. I will agree that operative heals have very easy reasorce management sorcs on the other hand do not. Also reasorce magment has less to do with duration of the fight and more to do with the amount of damage the team takes. If only one good dps is tunneling a healer and the other dps on the team are garbage the healer will have no problem keeping up the entire team.

 

I sorc heal for our ranked team and if u check out my stream there are many times that I burn my resources and this makes the team and myself very vulnerable. Also not that just because operative healers have easy reasorce management does not mean they are invulnerable, if you force and oprative to use his roll he will easily burn all his resources. If healing was overpowered in ranked games no one would die or you would only need one healer.

[StaticSilence]

Yes healers are a bit op. they need to be brought down a bit so that they need to rely on tanks for protection.

[Pattotwo]

You need to L2Interrupt because healers are fine.

 

They do go OOM, but most are smart enough not to. Plus, different healers = different energy mechanics. The only one who's probably a bit overpowered regarding energy management is maybe the Commando - my friend's got one and he roflstomps...most players just "give up" after not being able to kill him.

 

But my scoundrel, and both our sorcs, are shut down by interrupts. Do you know what an interrupt is? You have a separate interrupt skill, but then you also have pushbacks, pulls, grenades, mezz, stun, all these things interrupt the currently channeled skill.

 

If you take away the healer's ability to cast the largest skills, then he will eventually die. Unless you're 1v1'ing a scoundrel below 30% health and he has an upperhand, then he spams emergency medpac - so call a friend and dps him down

 

I think we found a bad healer here haha trying to save his class getting a nerf... Seriously healing is out of control right now and to prove it just look how many healers u see in every game didn't see that 6 months ago..

[zaknaphein]

Welcome to a grp based game. MMO

[Astarica]

People who say they can stop healers must be talking about bad healers. If you look at WZ leaderboard numbers from any level of the game you'll find the top heal beats the top DPS by a comfortable margin. If it was possible to 'shutdown' a healer, then you'd see a case like you did 500K damage to the said healer, and he can only heal 500K because he can only heal himself because he was shutdown, so the healer should never heal more than what the DPS that shut him down did. Of course you can't even do that when you kill the healer. I've plenty of examples from games where we totally rolled the other team and killed the healer 7 times (a staggering high amount these days) and our top DPS with 0 deaths still can't beat their total healed.

 

The only thing that keeps things somewhat sane is that enough bad players are rolling healers that you can occasionally actually kill them because they're very bad. Also there's enough bad healers out there that it dilutes the pool to the point where it's pretty rare to even see an average healer, and of course due to the mass influx of healers, you're likely to have quite a few of them on your side to balance it out.

 

Note that from a PvE point of view it's perfectly fine to have infinite resources on healers because mobs do not have to do balanced damage, while players do. If you can melee for 10K you don't care if those healers have infinite resources, but as a player you can't do that, while mobs can do that fine.

[Astarica]

The reason people think healing is OP is that reg WZ are extremely unbalanced. The reason many people say it is a L2P issue is that in ranked pvp where you have similar skill level and proper team composition (2 tanks, 2 healers, and 4 Dps) the ballence is the best this game has seen so far. However in regular WZ you will hardly ever see 2 teams with a good composition and skill lvl ballence. While the op may be a very competent dps the problem lies in the other dps on his team. I will agree that operative heals have very easy reasorce management sorcs on the other hand do not. Also reasorce magment has less to do with duration of the fight and more to do with the amount of damage the team takes. If only one good dps is tunneling a healer and the other dps on the team are garbage the healer will have no problem keeping up the entire team.

 

I sorc heal for our ranked team and if u check out my stream there are many times that I burn my resources and this makes the team and myself very vulnerable. Also not that just because operative healers have easy reasorce management does not mean they are invulnerable, if you force and oprative to use his roll he will easily burn all his resources. If healing was overpowered in ranked games no one would die or you would only need one healer.

 

Not sure why people are even trying to make this rated versus not when there was a guy bragging about a quality rated 30 minute Novare Coast. I'm sure the healers on both side ran out of resources often in a 30 minute Novare Coast.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Astarica

[Spellhunter]

I'm sure the healers on both side ran out of resources often in a 30 minute Novare Coast.

 

If both team are about same level of skill, then I will never ran out of resources even with my sage. But I must work hard on it.

[Astarica]

If both team are about same level of skill, then I will never ran out of resources even with my sage. But I must work hard on it.

 

What kind of justification is that? Is someone trying to kill you not working hard?

[Mackeyla]

And if the healer is a scoundrel, you can't even interrupt properly cause most of his heals come as instants.

 

As far as Operatives/Scoundrels go we've got instant HOTs and one spell that will give a small instant heal that requires a "Tactical Advantage" charge to execute. This heal doesn't heal a ton and isn't going to keep anyone sustaining a lot of damage up for very long. It would be like trying to pour a cup of water into a bucket that's full of holes...it will get some water in there for a while, but it's not going to fill it up very effectively. I rarely run out of energy on my Operative/Scoundrel because I know how to manage it. On my Sorc healer I have issues maintaining my force because the regen is bad and there aren't really any really effective mechanics to help.

 

A good player can shut down a lot of the healing output of any class if they use their brains. I.E. don't waste your stuns and interupts on small heals, wait for the large ones. Don't fill resolve bars too fast by using your big CC measures. If you annoy a healer enough to the point where they have to heal themselves then they are probably not going to be focusing as much on their allies and you're doing your job.

 

Maybe you should try playing each type of healer. It's a good way to figure out how to get around them. Ignorance is not bliss in PvP. Know your enemy, blah blah.

 

As a healer myself I've noticed a large influx of healers since 2.0 came out which is probably why a lot of you are hating healers atm...whether they are on your team or the opposing one. I've been in games where I'm 1 of 4 healers on my team. It's not any more fun for me than it is for you on the other team; it's boring. I could switch to DPS but only if you want to laugh at me as I die 20 times and do like 250k in damage. It's not pretty. I'll usually guard a node and go paint my nails in games like that.

[DharmaPolice]

You can run out of resources as a Scoundrel healer but it only happens when two of the following are true:

 

1. Youve not been paying attention.
   
2. You decide to dps. Theremal grenades and Freigher Fly-Bys are addictive.
   
3. The enemy hasn't done their job at all. In tough games (where you're constantly pressured / interrupted / stunned) you almost never run out of energy. Running out of energy implies you were allowed to get off 1 Kolto Cloud and 5 casted healers in quick succession. Most of the time you won't get away with that (even if you wanted to).
   

 

I do wonder what the game would be like if healers had much larger pools of resources (say, 5x the current amount) but had dramatically slower recharge rates. Right now, sustained dps is often useless because you can't really put pressure on healers over a five minute period with moderate damage. Obviously if your dps outstrips their ability to heal in the short term then people die but that's more of a "sustained burst" than anything else.

[Astarica]

You can run out of resources as a Scoundrel healer but it only happens when two of the following are true:

 

1. Youve not been paying attention.
   
2. You decide to dps. Theremal grenades and Freigher Fly-Bys are addictive.
   
3. The enemy hasn't done their job at all. In tough games (where you're constantly pressured / interrupted / stunned) you almost never run out of energy. Running out of energy implies you were allowed to get off 1 Kolto Cloud and 5 casted healers in quick succession. Most of the time you won't get away with that (even if you wanted to).
   

 

I do wonder what the game would be like if healers had much larger pools of resources (say, 5x the current amount) but had dramatically slower recharge rates. Right now, sustained dps is often useless because you can't really put pressure on healers over a five minute period with moderate damage. Obviously if your dps outstrips their ability to heal in the short term then people die but that's more of a "sustained burst" than anything else.

 

Yeah, I really wonder what kind of terrible opposition people play against to actually run out of energy while casting heals, because you never get to cast any heals that'd actually consume energy against any halfway decent DPS. The lockout on your big heal itself means you can't even use up your energy by that heal even if you wanted to.

 

It seems like at this point you'd need completely different rules for PvP and PvE for things to even make sense. In PvP all heals should have their cost increased since PvE is balanced around infinite resource and that's fine (enrage beats infinite heals) but this definitely doesn't work in PvP as DPS don't exactly have enrage as an option.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Astarica

[rashawty]

As somebody who only has healers and PVP's I can see why ppl would think we are OP. But i really think it's just a team balance issue and a bit of what type of class you are playing. On my Op/scoundrel I melt against a good sage/sorc, the spec with all the damn dot's i think. Also i notice when i go against a premade my healing is a lot more ineffective because the damage they put out tends to be higher and more focused, to the point where I've lost teammates before i was about to get off a 2nd cast. And yes 1v1 i can be hard to kill but at other times I've gone 1v1 and just got shut down.

Maybe if there was some system in place to make sure teams were balanced in matches things would be a bit better.

[BobyDigital]

give dps mercs and pts a heal debuff that stacks with the sniper and marauders heal debuff there made both thoes classes viable in ranked and fixed the op heals

[Astarica]

give dps mercs and pts a heal debuff that stacks with the sniper and marauders heal debuff there made both thoes classes viable in ranked and fixed the op heals

 

Heal debuff on certain classes is a gimmick and should not be how balance is done. If heals are too powerful then the trauma penalty should be higher. There's literally no reason why Marauder and Sniper should have these debuffs to begin with (they're about as opposite as two DPS classes can possibly be).

[weprisko]

have u ever tried to just annoy that healer as much as possible instead trying to kill him? when u would be pain in the *** u pretty much force tanks and other dps to run to get rid of u thus making ideal opportunity to push. or just force healer to use CC on u = wasted gcd and resources or just force him to kite to hell.

 

yes. healing is bloody OP when healers have enough time to heal, drink coffee, tell u few jokes on ts. once u put some pressure (not try to outdps him but just interupt, knockback, CC...) they would have bloody harder task to keep their team alive. and there just comes grp play. bad team wouldnt help the healer and it might lead to wipe. good team will usually get rid of that bastard by some pull, CC ...

 

also pls do not try to shout for heal nerf where 3 healers in wz are OP or u might end up with some nice patch that would force all to get 3+ healers to have a slight chance to keep some1 alive in wz. (ya know, not everytime u have 3+ healers in wz)

[Astarica]

I used to think people saying dealing with healers is easy are just trying to protect their overpowerness but it looks like it's more like people are just so bad they don't even understand how something can be overpowered.

 

If it was ever possible 'pressure' or 'shutdown' a healer, the person applying the pressure should have more damage done than the healer he is pressuring, because you can only heal as much damage as you've taken. If it was possible that while doing X amount of damage to a healer prevents him from healing his friends, then that healer can only heal at most X amount of damage (which is the damage on himself). Good luck trying to do that even on a game you killed the said healer repeatedly let alone merely just 'pressure' him. No 'pressure' means that got healed for 1 million instead of 1.5 million while you do anywhere between 500-700K on him. Again you have to be blind to the leaderboard to not realize that a guy that is trivially outhealing the top DPS while dying a significant number of times is obviously not actually bothered by the so called 'pressure'.

[Dawginole]

So.... they have quite a survivability and you can't kill them 1X1. Fair enough, well, sort of.

But why is it that they never go oom? In other games, this is actually the parameter that keeps healers in balance with the other classes. They heal for a while, but then resources start going down and at some stage they'll have to stop healing and hide for a while and reg. In SWTOR, one single healer is able to keep himself + 3 DPS alive for 5 minutes without ever running into resource problems.

Now, please enlighten me why it is me who has to l2p cause healers are fine?

 

I have to say that I don't disagree and I alt a scoundrel healer. Even at 45 I never lose energy and usually lead in heals with about 500k healing and in not even capped with all my abilities or have any exp gear which will just increase my efficiency and defense.

 

As a Min/maxed Sent I find it incredibly annoying to be parsing 2800 dps, and a full rotation knocks a well geared healer down to about 10-25% health and they stun me with a 4sec stun and heal to full during that 4 sec. Something seems off with that.

[Cretinus]

Someone above said that the reason why people keep producing the "healers-are-fine-l2p" line is actually not because they want to prevent a nerf inc to their healer toons. It's much rather because they're not good enough to even realise when something's op, he said.

 

I agree. If you're a decent PvP player and have some MMO experience, then you know both sides of the coin and you know that healers (and to some extent tanks too) are the current reroller-coasters and have been made op on purpose.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Cretinus

[JouerTue]

I don't get why people complain that healers can't be killed 1v1.

 

If they were easy to kill for 1 person then barely anyone would play them and thus make every match besides ranked basically just a DPS fest.

 

 

if it's true that you cannot kill them 1v1 it's also true that they aren't healing anyone else.

 

and people don't even know what interrupt...i lol when i see them interrupting AMP or kolto infusion just to let me cast my big baby

[Crujido]

A healer should be a strong class.

If not we can go back when having a healer was almost pointless due to how fast dps killed.

[xxIncubixx]

The reason people think healing is OP is that reg WZ are extremely unbalanced. The reason many people say it is a L2P issue is that in ranked pvp where you have similar skill level and proper team composition (2 tanks, 2 healers, and 4 Dps) the ballence is the best this game has seen so far. However in regular WZ you will hardly ever see 2 teams with a good composition and skill lvl ballence. While the op may be a very competent dps the problem lies in the other dps on his team. I will agree that operative heals have very easy reasorce management sorcs on the other hand do not. Also reasorce magment has less to do with duration of the fight and more to do with the amount of damage the team takes. If only one good dps is tunneling a healer and the other dps on the team are garbage the healer will have no problem keeping up the entire team.

 

I sorc heal for our ranked team and if u check out my stream there are many times that I burn my resources and this makes the team and myself very vulnerable. Also not that just because operative healers have easy reasorce management does not mean they are invulnerable, if you force and oprative to use his roll he will easily burn all his resources. If healing was overpowered in ranked games no one would die or you would only need one healer.

 

balance? so a game with 2 deaths tops is balanced? lawl

[Baalzamon]

I just respec my Operative to healer and holy moly it is easy mode in this game now.

Some people just have to protect there OPness.

[Cretinus]

A healer should be a strong class.

If not we can go back when having a healer was almost pointless due to how fast dps killed.

 

Everybody agrees with that, I guess. But this is not a question of all or nothing. Leave them as they are now, but then make their resources more limited and regeneration slower. A group of players capping a node will get heal, but not forever. Cross healers will still be able to heal each other, but not forever. A solo healer being focussed will be able to survive, but not forever.

Meanwhile I believe that it's the parameter 'forever' that annoys people the most.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Cretinus