ETA on Advanced Class change?

[waterboytkd]

The claim has been made by many that a player changing his class has no impact on me, therefore it should be allowed.

 

Well, BW allowing me to buy a character at max level with BIS gear, all companions (including HK-51 and Treek) at max affection with all companion unlocks wold have no affect on you. According to the logic used by many of those who desire class (AC) changes, BW should allow me to buy characters at max level with BIS gear, all companions (including HK-51 and Treek) at max affection and all companion unlocks.

 

That is the slippery slope you wish to ignore.

 

I mean...yeah. That's the slippery slope argument. Reductio ad absurdum. Even straw man. I applaud your use of fallacy.

 

Allowing people to do AC swaps and allowing them to do what you posted are not alike. At all. Not even remotely close. Why should the allowance or disallowance of one affect the allowance of the other?

 

Similarly, you buying milk has no affect on me. Also, you buying a prostitute has no affect on me. If one is allowed, should both be allowed? If one is disallowed, should the other be disallowed?

[Vandicus]

I mean...yeah. That's the slippery slope argument. Reductio ad absurdum. Even straw man. I applaud your use of fallacy.

 

Allowing people to do AC swaps and allowing them to do what you posted are not alike. At all. Not even remotely close. Why should the allowance or disallowance of one affect the allowance of the other?

 

Similarly, you buying milk has no affect on me. Also, you buying a prostitute has no affect on me. If one is allowed, should both be allowed? If one is disallowed, should the other be disallowed?

 

Your analogy reverses the order of the logic behind the argument.

 

"So long as it doesn't harm anyone else" is actually applicable to the use of marijuana and prostitutes. It has, and will continue to be, used as an argument(one that is widely viewed as a legitimate point of view mind you) for drug use, suicide, and generally any self-harming activities that the opposing viewpoints argue should be against the law.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Vandicus

[ivanhedgehog]

As I said before: control freakery. They don't like the idea for themselves, so no one should be able to do it.

 

BING BING BING!!!!! We have a winner. that is exactly it. human nature. People want laws to stop other people from doing things, not themselves.

[ivanhedgehog]

As I said before, they don't really use the basic skills. They have them, but are rarely used (unless you are counting the free shot or focus builder strike). Majority of skills you use are skills of your advanced class and your spec.

 

And it affects the game as a whole in much more than just switching weapons. Say I switch from healing sage to tank shadow. I need completely new set of gear (unlike switching from healing sage to dps sage, where my equipment remains somewhat usable). This could lead to people demanding that all stats are merged into one big pool so that they do not have to get new gear for their switching, and so on and so on (I believe it is called salami method)

 

the whole class/AC/Spec system is an artificial construct that the devs control. which is why the "slippery slope" argument is BS. The devs created the system the way they did. Any changes come from the devs. If they allow ac change but dont allow any of these horror show outcomes it is all their choice..this is not behavioral science. it is the devs setting the rules for the game we play. their game their rules. Not a lot of people were calling for a pvp only space fighter addition to the game. we got it because thats what the devs gave us. no more no less. I couldnt really care either way, I have 1 of every ac already at 55. some I will never play again because I dont like the play style. I kinda wish I had known that before I put all the effort into the character though.

[waterboytkd]

Your analogy reverses the order of the logic behind the argument.

 

"So long as it doesn't harm anyone else" is actually applicable to the use of marijuana and prostitutes. It has, and will continue to be, used as an argument(one that is widely viewed as a legitimate point of view mind you) for drug use, suicide, and generally any self-harming activities that the opposing viewpoints argue should be against the law.

 

Which is a huge simplification of the debate on the legalization of drugs or prostitutes. Matters tend to be much more nuanced than "does it bring harm to anyone else". But before I get really off track and start discussing the legalization of prostitution...

 

The argument really isn't: does it hurt any one individual if I do this? It's: does this feature hurt the game?

 

I've yet to hear how allowing AC swaps hurts the game. As for being able to buy level 55 characters with BiS gear, the repercussions to the game as a whole are readily apparent:

A) as alts can simply be acquired at level 55, far fewer people will take part in the leveling process, making it much harder for those that do so to get groups;

B) also, gaining a new toon at level 55 quickly and effortlessly gives a player 5 more companions to dispatch on crew skills, which if enough people take advantage of, can greatly flood the market with crafting products while also reducing demand for crafted products, damaging the game economy in a big way;

C) gaining BiS gear obviates the need for PvE end game, killing that play altogether, which ultimately leads to no player retention outside of PvP (which could see a surge as I know quite a few people play this game because it is Star Wars, and may find any way to keep playing), which probably wouldn't get enough attention to really keep this game alive and growing--maybe enough to convince BW to keep the server on, but certainly no new content, and in the end, a very inbred game.

 

None of the above would result from AC swapping. For those players that don't like alts, AC swapping might reduce their need to level toons, resulting in a lower leveling population, but that only applies to players who don't like alts AND find their current toon unplayable or unenjoyable. If that player doesn't like alts, then I seriously doubt he's rolling new toons just to experiment (but, he MIGHT purchase an AC swap to mess around with something new). So, probably little to no affect on the overall numbers of leveling players.

[Vandicus]

Which is a huge simplification of the debate on the legalization of drugs or prostitutes. Matters tend to be much more nuanced than "does it bring harm to anyone else". But before I get really off track and start discussing the legalization of prostitution...

 

The argument really isn't: does it hurt any one individual if I do this? It's: does this feature hurt the game?

 

I've yet to hear how allowing AC swaps hurts the game. As for being able to buy level 55 characters with BiS gear, the repercussions to the game as a whole are readily apparent:

A) as alts can simply be acquired at level 55, far fewer people will take part in the leveling process, making it much harder for those that do so to get groups;

B) also, gaining a new toon at level 55 quickly and effortlessly gives a player 5 more companions to dispatch on crew skills, which if enough people take advantage of, can greatly flood the market with crafting products while also reducing demand for crafted products, damaging the game economy in a big way;

C) gaining BiS gear obviates the need for PvE end game, killing that play altogether, which ultimately leads to no player retention outside of PvP (which could see a surge as I know quite a few people play this game because it is Star Wars, and may find any way to keep playing), which probably wouldn't get enough attention to really keep this game alive and growing--maybe enough to convince BW to keep the server on, but certainly no new content, and in the end, a very inbred game.

 

None of the above would result from AC swapping. For those players that don't like alts, AC swapping might reduce their need to level toons, resulting in a lower leveling population, but that only applies to players who don't like alts AND find their current toon unplayable or unenjoyable. If that player doesn't like alts, then I seriously doubt he's rolling new toons just to experiment (but, he MIGHT purchase an AC swap to mess around with something new). So, probably little to no affect on the overall numbers of leveling players.

 

It violates the principle of no class-swapping.

 

Which is not something that every game needs to abide by, but asking for AC-swaps is little different from asking to be able to play rage/madness/lethality on a mercenary.

 

Your argument that AC swapping would not decrease the leveling population even though it obviates the need for alts while the ability to purchase a level 55 would decrease the leveling population is a bit speculative. You've argued for why certain subgroups may or may not behave a certain way, but in either option you're likely to see some people not level alts who otherwise would have. The only real merit I see in debating that would be as to meaningful quantity.

[waterboytkd]

It violates the principle of no class-swapping.

 

Which is not something that every game needs to abide by, but asking for AC-swaps is little different from asking to be able to play rage/madness/lethality on a mercenary.

 

I agree. The last MMO I played allowed class swapping, and it worked out well, in my opininion.

 

Your argument that AC swapping would not decrease the leveling population even though it obviates the need for alts while the ability to purchase a level 55 would decrease the leveling population is a bit speculative. You've argued for why certain subgroups may or may not behave a certain way, but in either option you're likely to see some people not level alts who otherwise would have. The only real merit I see in debating that would be as to meaningful quantity.

 

Fair point.

[LordArtemis]

You are correct, spec is not class. AC's however are much more than simply a spec. They may not be as distinctly classes as you would like, but they are not simply specs, no matter what some may wish.

 

Naturally I am not calling them specs. I simply pointed out to that person that specs are not classes....in other words, specs play very differently from each other, but that does not make them a class.

 

Class is not defined by different playstyles. Spec and roles are. Class requires more to be defined.

 

Even the devs have stated that they are fundamentally DIFFERENT CLASS designs and that they were treated as FULL CLASSES.

 

I do not care what the devs have said, ESPECIALLY the original dev team. Nor should you IMO.

 

I see them as distinctly different classes within a story line, while you may see them as merely an unchangeable spec.

 

I see them as watered down playstyles labeled as classes....more than specs, less than classes. However, I would point out that your first statement here is the best argument I have heard from you....how you see them in the end is whats important and it should be.

 

Like you, I would prefer if they had made it much clearer whether the AC's are classes or merely a spec.

 

Yes, we agree on this point.

 

If they are classes, I would have preferred that they made it clear that you were choosing STORY at creation and CLASS at level 10 or later.

 

Sure, or just have it start at level 1.

 

If they are merely a spec, I would have preferred that they allowed AC changes as they allow spec changes.

 

Well, I don't see them as a simple spec. They barely meet the minimum definition as a class in my eyes, but I still call them a class.

[LordArtemis]

Even in this thread, the feedback does not seem to be a clear majority, either way. Go back through the thread and I think you will find the numbers of individual posters in favor of allowing class (AC) changes is roughly equal to the number of posters against allowing class (AC) changes. I did take the time to do so. I no longer have the list I compiled, but there was no vast majority, or even a clear one.

 

Some posters definitely have more posts than others, but the overall numbers of individual posters on each side are very close to equal.

 

Ultimately, the only thing that matters is what BW thinks.

 

So far, it seems that they think that your choice of class (AC) is still PERMANENT, no matter how much people wish otherwise.

 

This is unshakeable logic. And absolutely correct IMO top to bottom.

[Heat-Wave]

I have some unshakable logic as well...

 

On a double XP weekend, it is quite possible to power level a new alt from 1 to 55 using XP boosts, KDY, and PvP.

 

I have two Shadows, I've been wanting to play a Sage for awhile, but spending my weekend powerleveling doesn't interest me.

 

I'll be happy to give Bioware $10 to convert a Shadow to a Sage.

 

Now, the "anti-crowd" will say, "but, but, you need to EARN that new AC, you need to level it to learn it, like the rest of us.

 

Oh really? Power leveling another alt from 1 to 55 in 2 days using KDY and PvP somehow will make me good at it?

 

What about spending those 2 days actually AT lvl 55 and learning the AC?

 

The reasons given for why we shouldn't be able to switch AC are just insane and completely ignore reality. The reality is that producing another alt isn't hard, it is just a waste of 15-20 hours of time. Every single defense against that point is hollow.

 

Nothing, and that includes the strawmans arguments of "but it will lead to BiS sales on the CM and ruin the game", counts the above point.

 

A full set of BiS gear cannot be obtained in a weekend, but a lvl 55 alt can be.

[Heat-Wave]

BING BING BING!!!!! We have a winner. that is exactly it. human nature. People want laws to stop other people from doing things, not themselves.

 

Yea... frankly, I think Ratajack simply keeps waving the flag pole, not because there is any sense to his arrangements (which there really isn't), but more because he wants everyone else to have to play his way.

 

There is just no sense whatsoever to anything he has said.

[Aries_cz]

My main is a Powertech (Advanced Prototype), I also have a Mercenary (Arsenal) they make extensive use of Rapid Shots (basic free attack), Unload, Rocket Punch, Rail Shot, Flamethrower, Death from Above, Determination, Electro dart (merc has range but effectively the same skill), Energy Shield, Hydraulic Overrides, Chaff Flare, Kolto Overload, Stealth Scan and Thermal Sensor Override.

In fact, their main attack rotation tends to take a couple of skills from the Bounty Hunter ability pool, a couple from the Powertech or Merc pool and then the couple from their chosen Spec.

 

Good old Sage to Shadow (Sorcerer to Assassin) swap gets brought into the discussion a lot. But, how is the gear change any different to that required for a Powertech respeccing from Tank to DPS (or DPS to Tank)?

 

Ah, I forgot about Powertechs and DPS merc using lot of same things (because I don't play DPS spec on these classes, I have tank PT and heal Commando). However, they are the most glaring exception from that rule, and most ACs have their rotations based on their own skills or on skills that the other AC does not use (like Snipe on Sniper/Operative).

 

And as I said, even if I swtich from Tank PT to DPS PT, my gear is still somewhat usable in this new role. I cannot say the same if I swapped from Healer Commando to Tank Vanguard

[Jaxtes]

I cannot say the same if I swapped from Healer Commando to Tank Vanguard

 

Healer and Tank have entirely different stat priority. Makes me think the original plan was that even if Ac was switched people wont be able to change roles immediately. Tank<>DPS<>Healer to switch between the more crucial roles you would have had to gear properly anyways.

[Savej]

This is unshakeable logic. And absolutely correct IMO top to bottom.

 

You can't make judgements on dev points of view based on recent silences or inaction. "Devs are obviously opposed to same sex companion romances"? "Devs hate the idea of open space pve"? "Devs are done with Revan and Kotor references" (pre 2.10 person saying that). Bad logic.

[Anzel]

I'm so excited for this change. I have like 4 characters that I will switch over as soon as it goes live.

[Savej]

I'm more on the side of allowing AC change, but you do bring up a good point about melee vs range which is mostly a huge different between ACs. Changing my sniper to an operative would be like night and day due to the melee vs ranged points your bring up, and a lot of people tend to prefer one over the other.

 

?

 

there is at least one example of spec changes in other games where one spec is a stealth dps and another is a ranged dps (and another is a tank and another is a healer - each requiring different energy mechanics different stats, different gear and different macros/keybinds/abilities). If any of what ratajack and others mentioned is in any way truly relevant then you have to explain how and why the example i'm referring to broke that other game or class dynamics or lore or player retention or anything, really. We have already seen worst possible case scenarios and players switching from ranged to melee with a spec (or something resembling a spec in terms of game design theory) change breaks nothing at all.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Savej

[Deewe]

I'm so excited for this change. I have like 4 characters that I will switch over as soon as it goes live.

Wait what, official word on AC swap is out?

[Vhaegrant]

Ah, I forgot about Powertechs and DPS merc using lot of same things (because I don't play DPS spec on these classes, I have tank PT and heal Commando). However, they are the most glaring exception from that rule, and most ACs have their rotations based on their own skills or on skills that the other AC does not use (like Snipe on Sniper/Operative).

The attack rotations show some variation across all specs, although most are built from a mixture of Class, Advanced Class and Spec abilities.

All classes share a very similar core of defensive abilities (stun, interrupt, break and de-aggro).

That said, the need for spatial and tactical awareness, and being able to adopt your rotation of the fly can vary significantly between Specs, as much, if not more so than changing AC.

And as I said, even if I swtich from Tank PT to DPS PT, my gear is still somewhat usable in this new role. I cannot say the same if I swapped from Healer Commando to Tank Vanguard

A little bit misleading there

Try swapping from DPS PT to Tank PT and tanking in your DPS set... not so easy now is it

[LordArtemis]

You can't make judgements on dev points of view based on recent silences or inaction. "Devs are obviously opposed to same sex companion romances"? "Devs hate the idea of open space pve"? "Devs are done with Revan and Kotor references" (pre 2.10 person saying that). Bad logic.

 

Well, what you can't do with any reasonable expectation of acceptance is to say something like "ACs are classes because the Devs say so" IMO.

 

But you can certainly point out the facts of the matter. That is pure logic. The statement I highlighted simply points out a few absolute facts. What you derive from those facts is completely up to you.

 

To summarize...

Devs have stated that ACs were designed as fundamentally different class designs.

Devs have stated that AC change will likely happen eventually.

No statements pertaining to AC original design intent or the allowance of AC change have been made in more than a year.

In polling this thread, there is not a clear majority on who supports AC change and who does not. It is pretty close to even.

Those are all facts. You can interpret them as you will.

[Jaxtes]

I'm so excited for this change. I have like 4 characters that I will switch over as soon as it goes live.

 

I will only be switching 2 toons, the switch is bound to be a bit expensive

[branmakmuffin]

Healer and Tank have entirely different stat priority.

So do tank and DPS.

 

Wait what, official word on AC swap is out?

Hardly.

Edited September 17, 2014 by branmakmuffin

[Savej]

Well, what you can't do with any reasonable expectation of acceptance is to say something like "ACs are classes because the Devs say so" IMO.

 

But you can certainly point out the facts of the matter. That is pure logic. The statement I highlighted simply points out a few absolute facts. What you derive from those facts is completely up to you.

 

To summarize...

Devs have stated that ACs were designed as fundamentally different class designs.

Devs have stated that AC change will likely happen eventually.

No statements pertaining to AC original design intent or the allowance of AC change have been made in more than a year.

In polling this thread, there is not a clear majority on who supports AC change and who does not. It is pretty close to even.

Those are all facts. You can interpret them as you will.

 

Yes, those are all facts and I'm not disputing them. But I know you know the story is longer than that (there are blanks in those facts) and I was only arguing with the interpretation/logic/leap that "no news" means something in particular.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Savej

[LordArtemis]

Yes, those are all facts and I'm not disputing them. But I know you know the story is longer than that (there are blanks in those facts) and I was only arguing with the interpretation/logic/leap that "no news" means something in particular.

 

Fair enough. Just wanted to explain my post. I did not mean to cast doubt on your contentions or conclusions.

 

I think many interpretations can be made from those facts, one no more or less valid than the last IMO. Since it is all pure speculation past the facts naturally.

[Vhaegrant]

So does the new 3.0 Discipline system impact on the difficulty of switching Advanced Classes?

 

Link to dev blog -> http://www.swtor.com/info/news/blog/20141006

 

Disciplines being introduced will not allow you to change Advanced Class, just Discipline. Example, if you are a Madness Sorcerer right now you will have the option of which Discipline to move into, Corruption, Lightning, or Madness just like you do now! Also, just like now, you will be able to change Disciplines after choosing should you want to.

 

-eric

I guess that answers that then

Edited October 6, 2014 by Vhaegrant

[Jaxtes]

Who knows but bringing a dramatic change to skill system is the best time to provide an AC class switch.

Think the quote might have been more of an emphasis that FREE AC change is not coming.

*Fingers crossed*