ETA on Advanced Class change?

[Ratajack]

I play fairly frequently a bit more than the casual gamer and it still takes me at least a month to get to max lvl on an alt and about as long to get raid gear. Many people who nigh consider themselves casual are actually much harder gamers than they think and also there is of course the exaggeration factor in those times.

 

It took you two months, but you EARNED that new class and did not have it HANDED to you. That is all that those against class changes are asking, that those that want to play a new class, actually level it and earn it. We're not trying to punish anyone, despite what some others would have you believe. . It's not punishment to ask people to actually EARN what they want.

[Vhaegrant]

Please...stop feeding him. He's said all that he's going to. He thinks you're lazy and deserve to be punished and the Devs, pre-launch, pretended that there was more diversity than there is so that people didn't say "WTHLOL" pre-launch. They marketed the AC's as more than they are, we all know that, yet he still thinks it's valid.

I know, I really shouldn't... but I'm on a train and it keeps my mind off the tinny music spilling out of badly fitting headphones that everyone seems to wear these days.

I agree that there was a lot of PR speak talking up the class stories and diversity, but that's pretty much the same for all games and a reason I keep my expectations firmly set to 'interested' and no higher

[TUXs]

I know, I really shouldn't... but I'm on a train and it keeps my mind off the tinny music spilling out of badly fitting headphones that everyone seems to wear these days.

I agree that there was a lot of PR speak talking up the class stories and diversity, but that's pretty much the same for all games and a reason I keep my expectations firmly set to 'interested' and no higher

 

Understood Feed away! I just didn't want you to have any misconception that you might change his mind. He's not here to debate, he's here to argue.

[Vhaegrant]

Understood Feed away! I just didn't want you to have any misconception that you might change his mind. He's not here to debate, he's here to argue.

 

I think I'm probably as guilty once you get entrenched into an argument it's very difficult to admit an error or to leave a cherished point behind. I think the reliance on old quotes from around game launch isn't the strongest of footings bearing in mind how many other original design choices have been reworked after fan requests.

And while I can almost see the relevance of saying an Advanced Class is a Class on the mechanical aspects it completely fails to address the specific identity of a Class in SWTOR is identical for both ACs.

From my own viewpoint, class identity is based more on the non-mechanical aspects such as theme and overall concept than the tools (abilities) that lets them kill things.

 

I'd like to see the available ACs expand for all the classes. Spilling over to fill out the missing roles for some classes and offer more weapon combinations for others. I made the following comments on a thread about opening up weapon usage http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=692477

 

I was thinking more along the lines of a complete new AC with three full specialisation trees for each class.

The design of the new AC could fill in gaps of role coverage, types of animation used for abilities and weapons allowed.

 

For example Sith Warrior has Marauder (DPS role only) two sabres and Juggernaut (DPS or Tank) using a single sabre. They have no Healing spec available or ability to use double ended sabre. Off the top of my head maybe a 'Fallen Jedi' AC with DPS and Heal specs, using a double ended sabre/ electro staff and the animations from the consular abilities (that is rocks instead of lightning). You could chose to go back to level 1 and level up a new Sith Warrior this way... would it fit the story? It wouldn't be too far out, and with the ability to swap species you can have Trueblood Sith as Jedi Knights (which feels more against the grain).

The mirror to this would be the 'Redeemed Sith' a Jedi Knight AC which has a couple of DPS specs as well as a healing spec and using the double ended sabre, animations would favour lightning rather than pebbles.

 

Hand in hand with something like this would go an AC swapping function using a cartel market token to swap over the AC similar to the appearance change/ name change functions.

 

At the end of the day the levelling experience would remain the same it would just give the players more ways of going through it. And you can always add more and more ACs to broaden the scope of player choice.

 

 

[Edit: Probably should have stayed ontrack and come up with an example based on the Bounty Hunter/ Trooper...

 

Bounty Hunter new AC 'Duellist' DPS specs only, uses techblades or techstaves, think Torian or Akaavi .

Trooper new AC 'Marine' DPS specs only, uses techblades or techstaves, think Yuun or Tanno Vik. ]

 

I feel a bit bad that I only gave sort of options for the Warrior/Knight and Hunter/Trooper...

 

The Imperial Agent/ Smuggler lack a Tank option and I'd be tempted to give them a melee option to cover this. Not sure on names for this one...

 

Smuggler -> AC 'Swashbuckler' or maybe 'Corsair' DPS and Tank (similar mechanics to Shadow Tank), uses dual techblades.

Imperial Agent -> AC 'Warden' or maybe 'Agitator' DPS and Tank (similar mechanics to Assassin Tank), uses techstaff.

 

The hardest class to find additional AC for is the Consular/Inquisitor, their Advanced Classes already offer them the options of Tank/ Melee DPS (Shadow/Assassin) or Heal/ Ranged DPS (Sage/Inquisitor) effectively all you have to open up is the type of sabre used and Sage/Inquisitor barely uses a sabre anyway, I'd rather give them the option to not have a sabre out at all.

 

With the high costs of developing a new class I think it's far more likely we'll see additional ACs added to broaden the scope of existing classes. And at that point in the future the need for an AC swapping function will be far more attractive.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Vhaegrant

[branmakmuffin]

And the definition of 'Game' is:

2. an activity that one engages in for amusement.

"a computer game"

synonyms: pastime, diversion, entertainment, amusement, distraction, divertissement, recreation, sport, activity, leisure activity; frolic, romp, source of fun

 

Your point is?

I get the idea you think TOR is some kind of game.Clearly it is a life investment.

[Marb]

WoW has 11 classes with 3 specializations each (last time I checked). You can change between those specs, and even save two spec setups to change on the fly.

 

The problem here is that you have your class, and then you have your class nested inside a class, and THEN you have your specializations.

 

It is the class nested inside a class part that is the problem. I suspect it is because AC does not feel like a class, it feels like a spec. That is why, IMO, folks want to be able to change AC...if it actually felt like a class I don't think we would be having this conversation.

 

They could fix this. Instead they seem to have chosen to leave it ambiguous and allow this debate to continue.

 

Agreed, that's the problem.

 

But in defense of AC respecs, I wouldn't be against swtor trying to be its own thing instead of mirroring WoW for the sake of being familiar to a wider audience.

 

It's a topic worth exploring.

[MajikMyst]

WoW has 11 classes with 3 specializations each (last time I checked). You can change between those specs, and even save two spec setups to change on the fly.

 

The problem here is that you have your class, and then you have your class nested inside a class, and THEN you have your specializations.

 

It is the class nested inside a class part that is the problem. I suspect it is because AC does not feel like a class, it feels like a spec. That is why, IMO, folks want to be able to change AC...if it actually felt like a class I don't think we would be having this conversation.

 

They could fix this. Instead they seem to have chosen to leave it ambiguous and allow this debate to continue.

 

The problem with that is, using your numbers.. 11X3 is 33 specs.. SWTOR has 16 classes with 3 specs, 1 shared.. Not counting the shared.. 16X2 is 32.. Only a loss of 1 spec.. Counting the shared because they are in fact specs.. There are 48 specs in this game.. 15 more than in WOW..

 

Again, there is no reason for AC respec'ing..

 

People want to change AC because WOW allows you to have characters that can both tank and heal just by changing your spec.. This game does not, and that is exactly why AC swapping shouldn't be allowed..

 

Nobody needs to have a toon that can go from tank to heals just by changing their spec.. We do not need classes that can literally do it all..

 

Honestly, there is nothing to fix.. All this talk about changing specs and swapping AC's.. One would have to wonder why game makers even worry about level, spec, or class.. It seems all people want is a character that can do it all in any situation.. It would sure make balancing a lot easier.. Gear could just be for looks and looks only.. We could all. just have the same exact stats, with the same exact skills.. In the end, that is what people are arguing for..

 

The only reason we have this conversation is because Bioware gave us about 10 levels to try out our characters before we selected our class.. If we chose our class during character creation at level 0... There would be no discussion about changing our class.. The fact that our class was chosen later, made it seem lest permanent to some.. At least that is why I think we have this discussion.. I am sure that in WOW if you spent a time as just a caster or conjurer or something and then had a choice to be a Mage or a Warlock, there would be people asking to be allowed to swap.. WOW doesn't give people that choice.. You are one or the other.. You do not become one or the other..

 

The other issue is that I find it truly sad how people don't want to live with a choice they made.. Instead of rolling another character, they are going to demand that Bioware change the game.. I find that sad..

 

Part of what makes our characters different is the fact that not all can do the same thing.. Not all have the same skills.. Some can heal and others can tank.. To me, that is how it should be..

Edited November 23, 2013 by MajikMyst

[Vhaegrant]

People want to change AC because WOW allows you to have characters that can both tank and heal just by changing your spec.. This game does not, and that is exactly why AC swapping shouldn't be allowed..

Spec changes are already in SWTOR, for free if you are a subscriber, available to do nearly anywhere if you pay for 'Field Respecialisation'. No one is asking for 'Tank' and 'Heal' trees to be put in the same Advanced Class.

 

Nobody needs to have a toon that can go from tank to heals just by changing their spec.. We do not need classes that can literally do it all..

Agreed, and once again that's not what the majority of pro-AC swap are asking for. They are asking for the opportunity to change their AC after selection at level 10. Some would get more function out of it as they level some at end game. You still wouldn't have a class that can do it al you would have exactly the same range of abilities on Advanced Classes that already exist.

 

Honestly, there is nothing to fix.. All this talk about changing specs and swapping AC's.. One would have to wonder why game makers even worry about level, spec, or class.. It seems all people want is a character that can do it all in any situation.. It would sure make balancing a lot easier.. Gear could just be for looks and looks only.. We could all. just have the same exact stats, with the same exact skills.. In the end, that is what people are arguing for..

Again, and this is a point you seem reluctant to take on board. No one is asking for an Advanced Class that can do it all. They are asking for the option to play one AC or the other at one particular time. The only thing that changes is they don't have to level up a second character they can remain on the original. The AC swap should of course carry some sort of cost.

Advanced Classes allow players a choice of role, roles are necessary for a developer to set difficulty and realistic challenges (hence the trinity of Tank/Heal/DPS), AC swap does not obviate this distinction as the individual ACs do not get the ability to do it all at the same time but are still only ever one or the other.

 

The other issue is that I find it truly sad how people don't want to live with a choice they made.. Instead of rolling another character, they are going to demand that Bioware change the game.. I find that sad..

I find it sad that there are people that don't want a game to offer an additional level of functionality and flexibility for those gamers that don't enjoy levelling or have limited time to play but more disposable income. The only impact of AC swapping is that it allows a player to bypass levelling another character of the same class, with regards to game mechanics it has no impact what so ever.

 

Part of what makes our characters different is the fact that not all can do the same thing.. Not all have the same skills.. Some can heal and others can tank.. To me, that is how it should be..

And it still would be, the make up of Advanced Classes and their skill trees would remain unchanged.

Taking your last statement to its logical conclusion you obviously must be against the ability to change Skill Trees as well. In MMOs your character really isn't different from anyone else playing the same spec and there are enough people playing to make sure you are never 'unique'. That sort of uniqueness only comes from the appearance options you select be it species, tattoos, hair or armour style (I'd like to see more flexibility on weapons used) and those are defined by Class rather than Advanced Class.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Vhaegrant

[Ratajack]

Spec changes are already in SWTOR, for free if you are a subscriber, available to do nearly anywhere if you pay for 'Field Respecialisation'. No one is asking for 'Tank' and 'Heal' trees to be put in the same Advanced Class.

 

Spec changes are in SWTOR, class changes are not. No one is asking for tank and heal skills to be put into the same AC, but people are asking to be able to tank AND heal on the SAME CHARACTER, something the devs intended NOT to happen. They intentionally designed the A's (classes) so that no SINGLE CHARACTER could tank and heal, at any time, not just at the same time. Allowing AC changes would negate this design intent.

 

Agreed, and once again that's not what the majority of pro-AC swap are asking for. They are asking for the opportunity to change their AC after selection at level 10. Some would get more function out of it as they level some at end game. You still wouldn't have a class that can do it al you would have exactly the same range of abilities on Advanced Classes that already exist.

 

Let's look at that highlighted portion. You, along with others, have spent so much time telling me that I and the devs are wrong and AC's are NOT classes, they are only "specs", yet you claim that there still wouldn't be a class that could do it all if they allowed AC changes. How can that be if AC's are only "specs" and not classes into and of themselves? If you claim that bounty hunter is the class and powertech (tank, DPS)/mercenary (heal/DPS) are just "specs" then allowing AC change would give one class (bounty hunter) the ability to do it all, something you claim would not happen. Your own words tell me that you KNOW and understand that AC's are different classes.

 

Again, and this is a point you seem reluctant to take on board. No one is asking for an Advanced Class that can do it all. They are asking for the option to play one AC or the other at one particular time. The only thing that changes is they don't have to level up a second character they can remain on the original. The AC swap should of course carry some sort of cost.

Advanced Classes allow players a choice of role, roles are necessary for a developer to set difficulty and realistic challenges (hence the trinity of Tank/Heal/DPS), AC swap does not obviate this distinction as the individual ACs do not get the ability to do it all at the same time but are still only ever one or the other.

 

People are asking to be able to "do it all" with a SINGLE CHARACTER, though. This is something the devs do not want. They intentionally designed the game so that NO SINGLE CHARACTER could tank AND heal, not just at the same time, but at ANY time. Players still have the option to fill any role they choose IF they level a class that perform that role. If a player wants to tank, they need to level a tanking class, not level a DPS only class, and clamor to be able to change class at end game to "be more flexible".

 

I find it sad that there are people that don't want a game to offer an additional level of functionality and flexibility for those gamers that don't enjoy levelling or have limited time to play but more disposable income. The only impact of AC swapping is that it allows a player to bypass levelling another character of the same class, with regards to game mechanics it has no impact what so ever.

 

 

And it still would be, the make up of Advanced Classes and their skill trees would remain unchanged.

Taking your last statement to its logical conclusion you obviously must be against the ability to change Skill Trees as well. In MMOs your character really isn't different from anyone else playing the same spec and there are enough people playing to make sure you are never 'unique'. That sort of uniqueness only comes from the appearance options you select be it species, tattoos, hair or armour style (I'd like to see more flexibility on weapons used) and those are defined by Class rather than Advanced Class.

 

I highlighted the key phrase there--BYPASS LEVELING.

 

I find it sad that so many people want to try to hide their aversion to the effort of actually leveling (EARNING) that new class behind excuses such as "leveling is boring", "I hate questing", "I have limited time to play", etc. I find it sad that so many want to just put their hand out and expect what they want to "magically appear".

 

 

"How can I have that other class without actually having to level it"? I know, I can call it an AC swap and claim it is not a class change and offer to throw a little money at BW so I can BUY a max level character of that new class.

[ZeroPlus]

Really? Let's see:

 

Quote: Originally Posted by DanielErickson

Inside each one of those, we treated those as a full class

 

 

 

As I said, the devs have stated that they treated each AC within a story line, or base class, as a FULL CLASS.

 

Interesting. You said the devs said that story wise the advanced classes were treated differently, as a FULL CLASS. I stated my doubts about that because the base class story is the same independant of the advanced class being played (if one was even chosen!!!!). You provide me with a GENERIC quote that DOES NOT have a link to the ORIGINAL post and then use that to validate what you have already said about the stories being different depending on the advanced class.

 

Riiiiigghhhhht. Reach for straws much? Or are you willing to link to the original post where you quoted from so that I can read what was said IN THE CONTEXT it was said in?

Edited November 23, 2013 by ZeroPlus

[Trollokdamus]

The problem with that is, using your numbers.. 11X3 is 33 specs.. SWTOR has 16 classes with 3 specs, 1 shared.. Not counting the shared.. 16X2 is 32.. Only a loss of 1 spec.. Counting the shared because they are in fact specs.. There are 48 specs in this game.. 15 more than in WOW..

Uhm, you are kidding, right? Tell me that you are kidding, please. If not... 16 classes, really? And 48 specs? No, you must be kidding.

[Xienive]

I find it sad that so many people want to try to hide their aversion to the effort of actually leveling (EARNING) that new class behind excuses such as "leveling is boring", "I hate questing", "I have limited time to play", etc. I find it sad that so many want to just put their hand out and expect what they want to "magically appear".

 

I find it sad at just how much time and effort you have put into this one thread over something that would still not affect you if other players did it. Chances are that half the people on your server could switch to a different AC right now and unless you see them everyday and know their names you wouldn't even realize it.

 

People are also acting like people are going to be switching from tank to healer on a whim which we all know wouldn't be the case, because if they ever did something like this it would realistically cost a decent amount of Cartel Coins or a big sum of in game credits which people aren't going to be doing every day unless they just have money to blow. Also who is to say you can do it whenever you want? Who says it won't take any "work", it could be done in many different ways to allow players to "earn" it. There could be a time limit from the amount of time you change. Then after you already do that you have to spend time getting all different gear unless you are going from dps to dps.

 

Also when you go to character creation, after you choose allegiance the next thing it says to do is SELECT CLASS, so if I pick Jedi Knight that is my class according to what character creation has just told me. Regardless of which AC I pick later, half my skills, my story, my voice, my companions will all be JEDI KNIGHT. If I changed my AC all of those things would still be JEDI KNIGHT which is the class I selected when I made the character. Respecing my AC would essentially allow me to change half my skills and 2 trees, that's all. I still don't think you can truly call Guardian and Sentinel two independent classes when they share half the same skills, a whole tree, and the same energy resource. Many of the arguments against this would be fantastic IF people were completely trying to change class, but nobody is.

[MajikMyst]

Uhm, you are kidding, right? Tell me that you are kidding, please. If not... 16 classes, really? And 48 specs? No, you must be kidding.

 

No actually I am not.. This game has 16 classes.. A shadow and a sage are two separate classes.. You can disagree with that all you want.. Bioware has stated that they treat our AC as our class.. Are classes are no different than say a class in WOW.. I can't really say that now.. WOW doesn't have skill trees anymore..

 

The math is sound.. You can figure it out for yourself.. I consider each tree as a spec.. That is 3 specs per class.. 16 times 3 is 48.. The math doesn't lie..

[MajikMyst]

I find it sad at just how much time and effort you have put into this one thread over something that would still not affect you if other players did it. Chances are that half the people on your server could switch to a different AC right now and unless you see them everyday and know their names you wouldn't even realize it.

 

Do you know how much of a fallacy that argument is.. It won't effect someone.. If Bioware allows AC swapping it effects us all.. And if you don't understand how, then perhaps you should read this thread.. That point has only been explained countless times..

 

What I find sad is how many times the pro AC swapping crowed simply ignore the arguments and points brought up by other people.. How sad it is that over half the community and Bioware are completely ignored.. How sad the obvious is completely ignored.. It almost seems like the people that want AC swapping are off living in their own little reality..

 

Bioware put in the game an extra NPC for the specific purpose of giving us the player an additional warning that our choice on our AC was permanent and would never change.. We then heard the same warning again from the trainer that actually grants our selection.. That seems to be a lot of work from a company that supposedly said they were going to add it.. Seems to me some of you need to learn what a soft no is.. It is called, tell the customer anything he wants to hear, but don't promise him anything.. 'AC swapping is on the list of things to do, but no ETA on when it will happen." Sound familiar?? NO ETA.. Meaning not in this century..

 

AC swapping will most likely never happen and there is a lot of people that will be happy with that.. WOW never allowed it either.. Class changing is just not something that should be allowed.. And yes it is class changing.. The claim that it isn't is just a lame attempt to marginalize our class so that swapping doesn't seem so bad.. What you didn't think someone could see through that argument??

 

And now this argument that it doesn't effect me or anyone else.. Who cares?? That doesn't make it right nor is that a reason to do anything.. You know a god mode button wouldn't effect you if you didn't use it.. AC swapping will create loot issues, as people will have more specs to roll on.. We will have sages rolling on tank stuff.. Gunslingers rolling on healing stuff.. Don't tell me it isn't going to effect me.. How many morons do I have to put up with that don't know their character in a flashpoint or an OP?? Part of leveling is learning your class..

 

If you don't want to play the game that is fine.. Please do not ask for something that will ruin it.. Bioware said during the beta that they didn't want a single character to be able to both tank and heal.. And if you look at how tanks and healers are divided up.. That is exactly how it is.. Allowing AC swapping will pretty much undo that desire.. On that alone, I doubt AC swapping will ever happen.. There is a good reason not to allow a single character to both tank and heal..

Edited November 23, 2013 by MajikMyst

[MajikMyst]

Spec changes are already in SWTOR, for free if you are a subscriber, available to do nearly anywhere if you pay for 'Field Respecialisation'. No one is asking for 'Tank' and 'Heal' trees to be put in the same Advanced Class..

 

So then you are saying that AC swapping is useless then?? Come on!! Nobody ever said they wanted tank and heals in the same tree..

 

What I said was, people want to be able to both tank and heal with on character.. They can do it in WOW.. AC swapping is required for a single character to both tank and heal.. Which is what I said in the first place.. Nobody is talking about spec changes.. For wow it is a spec change.. For here it is not.. I am sure you knew that..

[MajikMyst]

Agreed, and once again that's not what the majority of pro-AC swap are asking for. They are asking for the opportunity to change their AC after selection at level 10. Some would get more function out of it as they level some at end game. You still wouldn't have a class that can do it al you would have exactly the same range of abilities on Advanced Classes that already exist.

 

You need to go read all 399 pages.. That isn't what a lot of people are asking for.. Most want to change their AC just like they can change spec..

 

Besides.. If they allow it once at say level 10... You have to know the forum would be flooded with the same people in this thread wanting another swap or a removal of all restrictions.. You would be a fool to think it would end there..

 

Nobody knows what permanent means now, what makes you think they would know later??

Edited November 23, 2013 by MajikMyst

[MajikMyst]

I find it sad that there are people that don't want a game to offer an additional level of functionality and flexibility for those gamers that don't enjoy levelling or have limited time to play but more disposable income. The only impact of AC swapping is that it allows a player to bypass levelling another character of the same class, with regards to game mechanics it has no impact what so ever.

 

But see that is the rub.. I don't see AC swapping as an additional level of functionality.. I see it as enabling laziness.. I don't see it as more flexibility.. If you don't enjoy leveling then don't play an MMO.. If you don't like football then don't play a football game.. If you don't like racing then don't play a racing game.. If you don't like leveling then don't play an MMO.. No MMO should have to change the way it is played to accommodate someone's desire not to level.. It is what you do in an MMO.. It is what you do in THIS MMO.. Nobody said you had to make any alts.. But if you are, then you are going to have to level them.. If you want to play another class then you are going to have to roll an alt.. That is how you play an MMO.. That is what an MMO is..

 

Allowing people to bypass leveling has a huge impact on player quality.. We don't need any former sage healers going shadow and then trying to tank.. Or visa versa.. And it isn't just tanking and healing.. It is a basic knowledge of the class.. Spec and rotation.. Knowing what the procs do and what gets them to proc.. Knowing the cool downs.. I'm sorry.. I am not going to tolerate someone on a learning curve because they were to lazy to roll another character... That is what the leveling process is for.. It teaches you how to play that class.. So yes it will effect me.. It will effect everyone...

 

Let's be clear.. Sage and Shadow are two separate classes.. They share the same story.. They are both consulars.. But they are separate classes.. One doesn't play anything like the other.. I know because I have both.. A gunslinger and a Scoundrel are separate classes.. Yes they share the same story and they are both smugglers.. But they are separate classes.. One doesn't play anything like the other.. Again, I know.. I have both..

 

No AC swapping doesn't allow someone to skip leveling a character of the same class.. You just don't know what a class is... At least not in this game.. I is totally lame to say that our class is Jedi or Consular, or Smuggler.. That is not our class.. Nobody plays as a Jedi, or a Consular, or a Smuggler.. They don't have skill trees.. The skill trees come with the AC.. That is your class.. You can call Jedi and the rest your Root class or something.. Or just class and then advance class.. But we play as our advance class.. You are just arguing over semantics.. Fussing over a name and not looking at content.. I know why Bioware did it this way. Because originally they wanted 16 classes in the game.. That was the original plan.. But the game was getting big with the stories, and 16 stories would be to big and to expensive.. So they decided on 8 stories.. So they came up with the idea that we have now.. 8 root classes and 16 advance classes.. That doesn't change the fact that our AC for all sense and purpose is our class.. It is what we play as.. It is what has the skill trees..

Edited November 23, 2013 by MajikMyst

[Trollokdamus]

No actually I am not.. This game has 16 classes.. A shadow and a sage are two separate classes.. You can disagree with that all you want.. Bioware has stated that they treat our AC as our class.. Are classes are no different than say a class in WOW.. I can't really say that now.. WOW doesn't have skill trees anymore..

 

The math is sound.. You can figure it out for yourself.. I consider each tree as a spec.. That is 3 specs per class.. 16 times 3 is 48.. The math doesn't lie..

Now you are just trolling me. It's obvious that i'm not talking about advanced classes not being separate classes. Are a shadow and an assassin two separate classes? Or a sage and a sorcerer?

There are just 8 classes in this game, period. Thus, arguably, 24 specs, if you count the shared ones for each class (which is a wrong thing to do, but still).

[MajikMyst]

Now you are just trolling me. It's obvious that i'm not talking about advanced classes not being separate classes. Are a shadow and an assassin two separate classes? Or a sage and a sorcerer?

There are just 8 classes in this game, period. Thus, arguably, 24 specs, if you count the shared ones for each class (which is a wrong thing to do, but still).

 

Sorry... There are 16 so says Bioware.. You do not have the authority to make any kind of judgement on this topic.. Period..

 

This is Bioware's game and they said there is 16 classes.. You are going to have to live with that..

 

In WOW the Mage and Warlock are pretty much identical in every way.. Except one has pets and the other doesn't.. Their skills are pretty much the same except different graphic and names.. One uses an ice bolt and one has a shadow bolt.. It has always been joked that the Warlock was a fire mage.. Both use mana, both are ranged DPS casters, both wear cloth armor, both use the same stats.. Both are different classes.. Priests are also very close to mage and Warlocks.. Again all 3 are separate classes.. We don't get to decide what is or isn't a class..

 

Your point simply isn't valid.. We don't get to decide what is or what isn't... All you are doing is attempting to make an argument that is for the most part is irrelevant.. There is no governing body that defines what a class is or isn't.. Blizzard defines a Warlock and a Mage as separate classes, even though they are about 95% exactly the same.. The remaining 5% is the Warlocks pets, and the graphical difference between skills.. Also that some skills come in a different order..

 

Bioware says a shadow and an assassin are different classes.. Case closed.. There is nothing we can say to argue that point.. It is their game.. When you program your own game you can decide what is or isn't a class.. Until then you have to live with what Bioware says.. That is just the way it is.. And for the argument about AC swapping.. Completely irrelevant... You are still ignoring the simple fact that the game says our choices are permanent.. And discussion here is pretty much moot because of that simple fact..

Edited November 23, 2013 by MajikMyst

[MajikMyst]

if you count the shared ones for each class (which is a wrong thing to do, but still).

 

The shared ones are really irrelevant.. But again I do understand the reason Bioaware did it.. First it sort of linked the two classes to their common heritage.. Second, it also meant that they didn't have to come up with as many talent trees.. The shared tree meant 16 less specs..

[Ratajack]

Interesting. You said the devs said that story wise the advanced classes were treated differently, as a FULL CLASS. I stated my doubts about that because the base class story is the same independant of the advanced class being played (if one was even chosen!!!!). You provide me with a GENERIC quote that DOES NOT have a link to the ORIGINAL post and then use that to validate what you have already said about the stories being different depending on the advanced class.

 

Riiiiigghhhhht. Reach for straws much? Or are you willing to link to the original post where you quoted from so that I can read what was said IN THE CONTEXT it was said in?

 

I never said that the devs treated each AC differently STORY WISE, just that they treated them as a full CLASS within each (story line), that the devs have said that they see AC's as DIFFERENT CLASSES and that the devs have said that they are FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT CLASS DESIGNS.

[ZeroPlus]

I never said that the devs treated each AC differently STORY WISE, just that they treated them as a full CLASS within each (story line), that the devs have said that they see AC's as DIFFERENT CLASSES and that the devs have said that they are FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT CLASS DESIGNS.

 

hmmm... still no link...

 

As for "the devs have said that they see AC's as DIFFERENT CLASSES and that the devs have said that they are FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT CLASS DESIGNS", (even though there is still no link), I agree completely with that thought. I don't think anyone has yet to disagree with it.

 

But think about it...

The Mercenary plays differently from the PowerTech, however they are both Bounty Hunters.

The Shadow plays differently from the Sage, however they are both Consulars.

The Operative plays differently from the Sniper, however they are both Imperial Agents.

The Sentinel plays differently from the Guardian, however they are both Jedi Knights.

The... I could go on, but you get the idea...

 

Now that you're thinking about that, think a little more and realize that the base class is much more of the Advanced Class than you want to admit...

The Trooper at 55 has 22 abilities whereas the Vanguard at 55 has about 15 (with some of them changing depending on the Skill Tree in use).

The Bounty Hunter at 55 has 22 abilities whereas the Mercenary at 55 has about 17 (with some of them changing depending on the Skill Tree in use).

The Sith Warrior at 50 has 19 abilities whereas the Juggernaut at 50 has about 15 (with some of them changing depending on the Skill Tree in use).

The Jedi Knight at 55 has 19 abilities whereas the Sentinel at 55 has about 16 (with some of them changing depending on the Skill Tree in use).

Again... I could go on...

 

Add to this the fact that their are 8 class stories in this game and that those stories are tied to the BASE CLASS (it makes no difference what you chose as your Advanced Class the story is the same).

 

Do you begin to get an inkling as to why so many feel that being able to change the Advanced Class is not a big deal? Many feel that they shouldn't have to play through the entire EXACT SAME STORY, loosing access to gear, titles, lore entries, etc., that they already have on a character of that exact same base class.

 

Reading your posts, I guess you don't... to you all of those that don't think like you are too lazy, too greedy, too entitled, too undeserving... it is kind of sad to see you spending so much effort on this when it really isn't a big deal.

[Anzel]

I'm super excited to start switching AC classes. I have a couple of toons that I'm waiting to do this with right now.

[Ratajack]

hmmm... still no link...

 

As for "the devs have said that they see AC's as DIFFERENT CLASSES and that the devs have said that they are FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT CLASS DESIGNS", (even though there is still no link), I agree completely with that thought. I don't think anyone has yet to disagree with it.

 

First, go back and read the last 400 pages. Those quotes and links have been provided multiple times.

 

Second, there are many people in this very thread trying to convince themselves and the rest of us that they only want to change "spec" and not their class by trying to convince us that AC's are "only specs".

 

But think about it...

The Mercenary plays differently from the PowerTech, however they are both Bounty Hunters.

The Shadow plays differently from the Sage, however they are both Consulars.

The Operative plays differently from the Sniper, however they are both Imperial Agents.

The Sentinel plays differently from the Guardian, however they are both Jedi Knights.

The... I could go on, but you get the idea...

 

Your point is? By your own admission, none of the AC's play the same.

 

Powertechs and mercenaries share the bounty hunter story line.

Guardians and sentinels share the jedi knight story line.

Operatives and snipers share the imperial agent story line.

 

I could go on, but you get the idea. Story line does NOT make the class. If it did, my GW2 ranger would be the same class as my son's engineer.

 

Now that you're thinking about that, think a little more and realize that the base class is much more of the Advanced Class than you want to admit...

The Trooper at 55 has 22 abilities whereas the Vanguard at 55 has about 15 (with some of them changing depending on the Skill Tree in use).

The Bounty Hunter at 55 has 22 abilities whereas the Mercenary at 55 has about 17 (with some of them changing depending on the Skill Tree in use).

The Sith Warrior at 50 has 19 abilities whereas the Juggernaut at 50 has about 15 (with some of them changing depending on the Skill Tree in use).

The Jedi Knight at 55 has 19 abilities whereas the Sentinel at 55 has about 16 (with some of them changing depending on the Skill Tree in use).

Again... I could go on...

 

How does a trooper go from 22 abilities without an AC but "lose those" abilities when he chooses his AC as vanguard? Are you saying that a vanguard has different skills than a trooper or a commando? That would lead me to believe that they were <GASP> DIFFERENT CLASSES, not the same class. That is, of course, unless I had a vested interest in them being seen as the same class, such as the desire to change from one class to another.

 

Add to this the fact that their are 8 class stories in this game and that those stories are tied to the BASE CLASS (it makes no difference what you chose as your Advanced Class the story is the same).

 

Yes. The story line is the same for the two AC's (classes). As I and others have said, if BW had set things up a little differently, this "discussion" would not be happening. At character creation they could have had the player choose his faction, then STORY LINE and shown us what two "classes" each story line could choose.

 

They could even issue a definitive statement now.

 

 

Do you begin to get an inkling as to why so many feel that being able to change the Advanced Class is not a big deal? Many feel that they shouldn't have to play through the entire EXACT SAME STORY, loosing access to gear, titles, lore entries, etc., that they already have on a character of that exact same base class.

 

Reading your posts, I guess you don't... to you all of those that don't think like you are too lazy, too greedy, too entitled, too undeserving... it is kind of sad to see you spending so much effort on this when it really isn't a big deal.

 

Actually I do get that. If you would go back and read the entire thread, you would see that I have made a few suggestions as to what I would consider a good compromise that would allow those players who have unique and no longer obtainable items on a given character to play the other AC while at the same time addressing the very real and reasonable concerns of those against class changes. My suggestions are among those repeatedly posted by LordArtemis. I'm not sure which numbers off the top off my head.

 

BTW, if it really isn't a big deal, then go level that new class. With all the XP boosts, and the double XP weekend coming up, I'm sure you'll have no trouble leveling that new class.

 

But then, class changes are ALWAYS a big deal. It doesn't matter whether you are against them, or are one of those who would like to change their class.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Ratajack

[Andryah]

Second, there are many people in this very thread trying to convince themselves and the rest of us that they only want to change "spec" and not their class by trying to convince us that AC's are "only specs".

 

Yeah I agree, and it's nonsense too. I've played other MMOs where you started with a base class and then picked your spec class after you finished a starter area. It was this way in DAoC, and it was a permanent choice, irrevocable, and if you wanted a different spec class.. then you rolled a new character...end of discussion.

 

This modern era of lazy players who want everything handed to them is getting pretty ridiculous IMO. Want a new AC.. roll a new character. This game is designed to facilitate fast leveling of characters, NOT resetting your AC because you are having a bad hair day.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Andryah