ETA on Advanced Class change?

[Savej]

The problem is, it DOES impact me. I don't want to group with someone who 30 seconds ago was a commando healer and suddenly thinks they can play a vanguard tank in a HM operation. OR someone who was playing a guardian tank and suddenly splits to sentinel DPS (sentinels think they are tanks enough already). OR a sage DPS jumping into OPS as a shadow Tank having never played it before. And it starts costing me $$ in repair costs and time.

 

Over time that player may understand how to play and have good gear, but more often than not, they will have little idea on how to play that class.

 

I play a vanguard tank, there is no way I could walk in and play a commando healer and expect to play as well as someone who has been playing that class since day one.

 

One of your complaints is about a guardian tank flipping to sentinel dps? Really??? What's the difference between a guardian tank switching to focus dps and a guardian tank switching to a sentinel and speccing focus? You picked just about the worst example to make your case (the difference between guardian and sentinel is less than that of just about any other ac distinction). It sounds like you are grasping at straws. And remember, other games let you flip between all three roles as easily as most in this game can flip between 2 and it has not negatively impacted them.

[TUXs]

One of your complaints is about a guardian tank flipping to sentinel dps? Really??? What's the difference between a guardian tank switching to focus dps and a guardian tank switching to a sentinel and speccing focus? You picked just about the worst example to make your case (the difference between guardian and sentinel is less than that of just about any other ac distinction). It sounds like you are grasping at straws. And remember, other games let you flip between all three roles as easily as most in this game can flip between 2 and it has not negatively impacted them.

 

I agree - it's such a foolish argument it's silly. They assume every player who would swap ACs is a complete moron who is lazy, greedy and too stupid to lean to fire 4 new specials. It's amazing how superior they feel they are for having ground the toon up from scratch...what a joke.

[DOHboy]

One of your complaints is about a guardian tank flipping to sentinel dps? Really??? What's the difference between a guardian tank switching to focus dps and a guardian tank switching to a sentinel and speccing focus? You picked just about the worst example to make your case (the difference between guardian and sentinel is less than that of just about any other ac distinction). It sounds like you are grasping at straws. And remember, other games let you flip between all three roles as easily as most in this game can flip between 2 and it has not negatively impacted them.

 

See I never said having a Guardian swap from DPS to DPS that was you putting words into my mouth. What I said was a guardian tank, who has leveled a tank, is used to tanking, jumping in, maintaining aggro etc. swapping to say combat sentinel DPS. New rotation, new skill set, and yes, totally new way of playing. Last thing we need is (more) sentinels thinking they are tanks and jumping in first, pulling aggro off the tanks (or before they can even get it) not killing adds not managing their own aggro, then complaining to the healer/tank that they don't know how to play.

Not saying every player will do it, just saying that given the option more than likely it will happen. And expecting someone to just swap rolls like they swap shoes is not realistic. Ever pick up an alt after 6 months of never playing it? I'm sentinel DPS and even swapping between watchman and combat is a pretty significant switch to do effectively. Sure you can do it, and probably suck at it for awhile, before you relearn the rotation. But if all you do is button mash who cares right. Its not affecting anyone but you ,oh except the group you are going with who expect you to know how to handle your character.

 

You can know the DPS mechanics of a fight fairly easily, but when you suddenly have to know how to tank it (not just hitting it with the pointy end, but also knowing when to swap, how to manage DPS etc). or healing and being able to predict where damage is going to be highest, where your placement should be etc.

 

a Melee DPS vanguard pounding on stormcaller and thinking they can suddenly start healing on firebrand. Or Sage healer on kephas in TFB thinking they can suddenly shadow tank with a flip of a switch are fairly delusional.

 

yeah you can probably be pulled though if rest of the team is good, but they can easily point out a players deficiencies as well. And pardon me if I expect people to actually know how to play their char especially if going to be playing a signfiicant role in a fight.

 

Why do you think we see all the "lfp please know fight" because we dont' necessarily want to spend all the time wiping when most would have it on farm.

[TUXs]

Why do you think we see all the "lfp please know fight" because we dont' necessarily want to spend all the time wiping when most would have it on farm.

Then form your own flipping group. Not everyone takes their gaming as seriously as you do. If the tank sucks because he was DPS 10 seconds ago, big freaking deal. If it makes him a happier player, I'm fine with it.

[DOHboy]

Then form your own flipping group. Not everyone takes their gaming as seriously as you do. If the tank sucks because he was DPS 10 seconds ago, big freaking deal. If it makes him a happier player, I'm fine with it.

 

The problem is, it was said it will affect ONLY the person doing the change and nobody else. I was simply pointing out that in group content, everyone is expected to know and understand their roles. It affects me if I am GF into a HM flashpoint with a person having never played that char at level 55.

[Ratajack]

Ah! I see...I also see you haven't even bothered to read the very first post of this thread. Come back after you read the part where Damion Schubert of Bioware said they're sure it'll eventually happen. I support his idea to make it happen - it would benefit the game.

 

 

No dev EVER said they were "sure it'll eventually happen". You do like to put words into people's mouths, don't you?

 

Do you refer to the quote in which the term "likely happen eventually" is used? "likely happen eventually" is a far cry from "sure it'll eventually happen". There was NO time frame given in that quote, either.

 

Let's look at the entire quote:

 

 

Quote: Originally Posted by Dulfy and Damion Schubert

18. Will be there any faction or Advanced Class change option available for purchase in the future?

 

We have had serious talks recently about offering an Advanced Class change option – I think that one will likely happen eventually. Species is likely as well. Doing a faction switch is considerably more difficult for us, though, due to the various quest flags set throughout the level up process, so this isn’t on the horizon anytime soon.

 

 

Do you see the part where he says species change is likely also? That has come to pass, but I'm sure you've noticed that they still do not allow CLASS CHANGES. If one takes the fact that one "likely" change has been implemented and one "likely" change (especially one that has as much potential to cost BW revenue as class changing probably would) has not, along with the fact that we have heard NOTHING further from the devs about class changing being implemented, one could easily infer that BW has no plans at this time of offering class changes.

 

Can they change their minds at any time? Yes, but so far I have not seen any indication that they will.

[TUXs]

The problem is, it was said it will affect ONLY the person doing the change and nobody else. I was simply pointing out that in group content, everyone is expected to know and understand their roles. It affects me if I am GF into a HM flashpoint with a person having never played that char at level 55.

 

It DOES only impact that player - it's an MMO - the playerbase is ALWAYS in flux. Obviously YOU have an issue with that so find your best buds and stick to your little corner of the never changing game world where you never need to experience a new player again. What "I" play for an AC has NO impact on you at all!!!! Bad players will be bad, good will be good. Nothing changes because of an AC swap no matter how much you want to pretend it does.

[Ratajack]

Because the reality is, not everyone is going to roll an alt. Some will just quit and find a new game before grinding ANOTHER toon. I know plenty of people who have quit instead of rolling again. It's an MMO - the players, the classes and class balance is fluid - allowing players to adapt to that fluidity is needed.

 

Don't you mean flip flop between two classes to play to OP every time one gets nerfed?

[TUXs]

Let's look at the entire quote:

 

 

Quote: Originally Posted by Dulfy and Damion Schubert

18. Will be there any faction or Advanced Class change option available for purchase in the future?

 

We have had serious talks recently about offering an Advanced Class change option – I think that one will likely happen eventually. Species is likely as well.

 

Can they change their minds at any time? Yes, but so far I have not seen any indication that they will.

Really? You actually have provided proof to the contrary...that line you quoted IS an indication they will.

[TUXs]

Don't you mean flip flop between two classes to play to OP every time one gets nerfed?

 

Even if that is someones intention, why the hell do you care? Who are you dictate what AC someone plays? Get a grip...it's just a game dude.

[DOHboy]

Even if that is someones intention, why the hell do you care? Who are you dictate what AC someone plays? Get a grip...it's just a game dude.

 

Well, if they never put it in, oh well relax, its just a game. We would rather they put effort into other places. But obviously our opinions don't matter since we can't come up with any reason (that others feel is valid) NOT too.

[Ratajack]

Really? You actually have provided proof to the contrary...that line you quoted IS an indication they will.

 

 

That is not proof to the contrary.

 

I acknowledged that they said species changes would "likely happen". I also noted that the species changes had come to pass, but the other "likely" change has not.

 

How would you explain the implementation of species changes and NOT class changes since the quote said both would "likely happen"? How do you explain the COMPLETE AND TOTAL SILENCE from the devs regarding class changes since that ambiguous quote? How would you explain total picture--the implementation of species changes, the fact that class changes have NOT been implemented and the fact that the devs have been TOTALLY SILENT on class changes since that quote, even in the face of this 360+ page thread?

[Savej]

See I never said having a Guardian swap from DPS to DPS...

 

I didn't say anything about that either. But flipping from guardian def spec to sentinel (what you did whine about) is virtually the same as flipping from guardian def spec to guardian dps (something that can and does happen right now). The distinction is -almost- purely cosmetic (assuming adaptive gear is equipped and the different off-hands are available - but you need to change off-hands when flipping between guardian tank and guardian dps, too). That was my only point.

 

Flipping from guardian dps spec (what I normally play) to guardian def spec does require an adjustment and I personally wouldn't want to do that in a competitive situation (raids, nightmares, rated pvp) but plenty of people can do it very well. So what?

[branmakmuffin]

What is mind-numbing is that you want Bioware, a company that makes more money the more time you spend in-game, to take away a reason for you to be spending time leveling, in-game. How does that make any sense?

Obviously they would have to balance it out with money they would earn charging CC to make the change. No one ever said they should do it regardless of financial consequences. But you can now change your characters' species without having to level up a new character. I bet when people were calling for species change, there were people saying "Just level a new toon."

[Vandicus]

The distinction is -almost- purely cosmetic (assuming adaptive gear is equipped and the different off-hands are available - but you need to change off-hands when flipping between guardian tank and guardian dps, too).

 

I would interject that this is only true for PvE(where it doesn't generally matter how dps is done and many utility skills are largely irrelevant) and even then not true for inquisitor/consulars and bounty hunter/troopers, because their ACs divide into melee and ranged which have different implications even in PvE.

[MajikMyst]

Really? You actually have provided proof to the contrary...that line you quoted IS an indication they will.

 

Sure we have proof... Played the game lately?? The game when you create an AC says on at least 4 different occasions that our choice is permanent??

 

Do you have any evidence that the game does not say that??

 

Seriously dude.. This issue is a no brainer..

[Ratajack]

Obviously they would have to balance it out with money they would earn charging CC to make the change. No one ever said they should do it regardless of financial consequences. But you can now change your characters' species without having to level up a new character. I bet when people were calling for species change, there were people saying "Just level a new toon."

 

As people have noted before, changing your character's species is a cosmetic change and not a change of fundamental class mechanics. There is a difference.

[ForceCowboy]

I find it amusing that so many people are invested in keeping the status quo.

 

Who really cares if someone pays to change their AC and avoid the tedious, monotonous grind to 55 across a half dozen static, lifeless planets? I sure don't.

 

Some of the AC's are horribly broken and the dev response was; you're wrong, L2P. The class representative spent years trying to get improvements made to the shadow and finally threw his hands up in disgust and quit the game over it.

 

But then again, all classes can just heal themselves to full, so I guess wanting to swap AC's is just dumb.

[branmakmuffin]

As people have noted before, changing your character's species is a cosmetic change and not a change of fundamental class mechanics. There is a difference.

Changing AC is not a fundamental class change, it's an advanced class change. As noted by several posters, the 2 ACs share one spec tree in common and all base class skills. So yeah, it's more of a change than species change, but not nearly as much of a change as base class change. You keep trying to say that it is, but it just isn't.

 

And so again, why is switching between DPS and heal or tank not a big deal yet switching between heal and tank is totally beyond the pale? Or are you opposed to spec change, too?

[WestXv]

Several of these guys who don't want ac changes were probably against skill tree changes too.

[branmakmuffin]

Several of these guys who don't want ac changes were probably against skill tree changes too.

Maybe some of them were against adaptive armor, too: "You want to look like you're wearing heavy armor? Roll a heavy armor toon!" Not accusing anyone in particular.

[MajikMyst]

Several of these guys who don't want ac changes were probably against skill tree changes too.

 

You weren't in the beta were you.. Because if you were, you wouldn't have made such a baseless remark..

 

It is just that many of us know that there is a difference between changing your spec and changing your class.. One does not justify the other..

 

But again.. Another failed attempt to even come up with a valid reason for class changing..

 

Remember the game says your choice will be permanent.. You have to explain why the game must be changed..

[MajikMyst]

Maybe some of them were against adaptive armor, too: "You want to look like you're wearing heavy armor? Roll a heavy armor toon!" Not accusing anyone in particular.

 

Maybe before you try to speculate what someone else is thinking you should be concerned about what you are not thinking about.. Like how to deny the game saying on at least 4 separate occasions that our choice of AC is permanent one.. Perhaps how to justify this idea that clearly Bioware and the majority of people do not want..

 

Perhaps come up with a reason that doesn't make you all look lazy..

 

Honestly.. You are having a lot of problems just dealing with the obvious.. I wouldn't try to understand the people not only understand the obvious, but agree with it..

[WestXv]

I don't think anyone here is denying that it says they 4 times its just that right now it seems that your whole argument is based off the number 4 and it saying that while we are giving reasons for it you just keep on saying "Well it says it 4 times" and assume that to mean it will never happen.

[MajikMyst]

I don't think anyone here is denying that it says they 4 times its just that right now it seems that your whole argument is based off the number 4 and it saying that while we are giving reasons for it you just keep on saying "Well it says it 4 times" and assume that to mean it will never happen.

 

No my entire argument is that all I hear from the people that want AC swap is that I must come up with a valid reason as to why AC swapping should not be allowed.. .. That is complete and utter BS.. I don't have to come up with squat!! I am not the one asking for a change in the game..

 

Then there is this big debate about what Bioware has said.. Well.. It says, at least on 4 different occasions that our choice is permanent.. Bioware when out of their way to make sure that point was perfectly clear.. That it wasn't something that could be doubted.. Yet here we are arguing about the obvious..

 

There is no assumption here.. What part of permanent do you not understand?? It will forever dominate your destiny.. That seems pretty permanent to me.. Why would anything think it would happen in the future?? There is no evidence to support that claim..

 

Yes yes.. These wonderful quotes from Bioware that don't say anything.. It is amazing how many people don't understand what a soft 'No' is.. But lets look at the evidence.. What the game says which is pretty much a clear and straight forward now, and all the quotes from Bioware that essentially amount to nothing more but a soft 'No'.. Basically they say absolutely nothing.. 'We have talked about adding this eventually.' There isn't a single quote out there anywhere that says it will happen and when.. There just isn't.. So the game is really all we have to go by.. But oddly enough, the game is what is continuously ignored or discounted.. Why is that by the way??

 

And still nobody on the pro side of things have offered any kind of argument as to why class changing should be allowed.. They are to busy worried about my arguments.. I am guessing it is because the folks that want AC swapping really don't have an argument. They just want to say they want it, but not to actually have to justify it to someone else or even Bioware..

Edited November 5, 2013 by MajikMyst