DPS Ops that bad in pvp!?

[Liquil]

So ever since I hit 55 I went straight healer spec and that's what I've been. Full pvp gear (un-rated, but still), Field Medic gear. Stats aren't that bad.

 

WZ's que's hadn't popped for like 20 mins so I decided to spec Concealment and go do some Gree stuff. Sure enough, soon as I get to Ilum, que pops. I figure "meh, how bad can it be, I'm fully geared and should smash some faces".

 

I've never failed so hard in this game at pvp, ever. And pre-cartel, I had 3 other 50's I used to pvp with.

 

Are dps operatives really failing that hard in pvp? I'd get a healer down to not even half health and then I would literally explode, even with shield and evasion popped. Every, single, time.

 

No this isn't a troll, feel free to say "no you just can't play dps", etc, etc. I did just fine pre 55 as dps in wz's. I was just shocked at how hard I failed as a dps in the 55's, even with full pvp gear.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Liquil

[Halom]

Well, I suggest a couple things could have gone wrong. First off your healer gear should be adequate enough for DPS. As recently I have been playing DPS for weeks at a time and still getting the healer gear I was shooting for. For one as a concealment you job a lot of the time is to guard the node, pylon etc. If you don't like guarding the pylon every now and then I would suggest speccing heals again . Personally I love to guard the pylon for whatever reason. As for your problems you could have been going about concealment all the wrong way. The wrong rotation in this spec will trip you up and ultimately won't kill a thing.

 

Rotation from stealth: Acid Blade, Hidden Strike, Shiv, Debilitate, Cover, Explosive Prove, (Acid Blade if you can), Backstab, Shiv, Lacerate, Lacerate, then whatever is needed to kill depending on what is off cooldown.

 

Also, you may have been picking a target in between 2 smashers that immediately ate you up. You have to kinda see your target (if you chose to not guard a node) that will be important to take out, but won't bring you everyone's attention. Maybe a healer that has stranded himself away from his guard, or a Sniper that is really far away from any healers but is picking people off one by one.

So, you could have your rotation wrong or picking bad targets. Possibly you could have run into a group that completely sucks if you only had 1 stab (hehe pun) at Concealment. Hope this helps.

[Syberduh]

Ops are easily the squishiest dps class in a group fight -- actually sorcs might technically be squishier but they're fighting at 30m if they're any good. In the current environment, ops cannot burst down a decent healer alone (if the healer has absolutely no support you can eventually wear him down but that only works if the healer is surrounded by really ****** pugs). If you don't crit on hidden strike and backstab you probably aren't even going to annoy a decent healer that much. Look for someone who is already engaged, pop stim boost (if it's up) for the alacrity bonus before you open and do what ops do best -- provide that oh-****-I-though-I-was-ok-but-I-didn't-expect-you surprise burst damage.

 

If you aren't in a group fight, ops actually have decent kiting ability these days so use that to your advantage. If you don't have a clear edge in your fight or if all of your useful attacks are on cooldown (looking at you, backstab) roll to LOS your opponent and cast a couple of heals -- you can even use diagnostic scan if energy is an issue. Unless you're fighting a good assassin. If that happens pray that combat stealth is up and call for help.

[Baalzamon]

So ever since I hit 55 I went straight healer spec and that's what I've been. Full pvp gear (un-rated, but still), Field Medic gear. Stats aren't that bad.

 

WZ's que's hadn't popped for like 20 mins so I decided to spec Concealment and go do some Gree stuff. Sure enough, soon as I get to Ilum, que pops. I figure "meh, how bad can it be, I'm fully geared and should smash some faces".

 

I've never failed so hard in this game at pvp, ever. And pre-cartel, I had 3 other 50's I used to pvp with.

 

Are dps operatives really failing that hard in pvp? I'd get a healer down to not even half health and then I would literally explode, even with shield and evasion popped. Every, single, time.

 

No this isn't a troll, feel free to say "no you just can't play dps", etc, etc. I did just fine pre 55 as dps in wz's. I was just shocked at how hard I failed as a dps in the 55's, even with full pvp gear.

 

Now you know our pain.

[Qaoz]

Concealment is good for getting solo kills, but I find that taking on anything in a group environment gets me focused hard. People hear that *zing* sound of my Hidden Strike and just home in on me instantly.

 

Lethality just suits me better. I can ramp up the burst from further away, so that by the time the target gets close (assuming it's not a Knight/Warrior), I'm ready to unleash my burst. It does lack the single target control of Concealment, and Hidden Strike feels underwhelming without the knockdown, but I much prefer the ranged playstyle.

 

Lethality offers me versatility. Concealment is a one-trick pony.

[Mega_Fallos]

I have 55lvl oper and scoundrel too (like mirror classes) My friend play 50lvl operative (he didnt byed pack). He have 35%crit chance and do very high dps on WZ. 7k crits and over ( bolster system) I have full partisan, mainhand/offhand - conqueror with augments 18/28cun, 31,8% crit chance (680 crit raiting) 74% surge. 6-6,5 crit Hiden strike. I had many duels. No chance vs skilled ppl who play mara/jugger rage, good sorcerer (hybrid build) and assassin of course. In lethality build I won few more duels than as consealment. low dps and low energy. And oper must to open first else he will lose Edited May 27, 2013 by Mega_Fallos

[JouerTue]

i had the same issues, so i started focusing on wounded targets and in guarding a pylon/node:

 

cc, call inc, open: acid blade, hidden stricke, shiv, lacerate, debilitate, cover, explosive probe,backstab, shiv, lacerate, recloack, hidden stricke. etc.

in the meanwhile help comes and the pylon is safe. sometimes the guy isn't geared or pops cc break on knockback so he goes really really down if he doesn't die.

and on a wounded player is quite an hard burst..

just don't pretend to solo kill anyone a part some weak mara/sent to kite around.

 

essential is having keybinds..keyboard turning=dead op

[Vikassi]

I have 55lvl oper and scoundrel too (like mirror classes) My friend play 50lvl operative (he didnt byed pack). He have 35%crit chance and do very high dps on WZ. 7k crits and over ( bolster system) I have full partisan, mainhand/offhand - conqueror with augments 18/28cun, 31,8% crit chance (680 crit raiting) 74% surge. 6-6,5 crit Hiden strike. I had many duels. No chance vs skilled ppl who play mara/jugger rage, good sorcerer (hybrid build) and assassin of course. In lethality build I won few more duels than as consealment. low dps and low energy. And oper must to open first else he will lose

 

You have too much crit .. I can crit for 7k in lvl55 warzones and i only have 22% crit. Crit is dead now, you dont need that much ,, stack power!

[RyanReagan]

You have too much crit .. I can crit for 7k in lvl55 warzones and i only have 22% crit. Crit is dead now, you dont need that much ,, stack power!

 

he's a healer. so he needs some crit for energy regen.

 

operative dps comes down to this:

 

if your hidden strike crits, you win. if your hidden strike doesn't, you lose.

[Thubb]

Are dps operatives really failing that hard in pvp?

Short answer : Yes.

[quantez]

I have 55lvl oper and scoundrel too (like mirror classes) My friend play 50lvl operative (he didnt byed pack). He have 35%crit chance

The higher critchance of your friend is because of the divisor element that kicks in after lvl 50. If your friend levels beyond 50, he will notice his crit to decrease as well.

 

You have too much crit .. I can crit for 7k in lvl55 warzones and i only have 22% crit. Crit is dead now, you dont need that much ,, stack power!

Your 7K critting has nothing to do with your critchance of 22%. Surge and power do.

 

he's a healer. so he needs some crit for energy regen.

True. Sure there is a point at which stacking power beats Crit in terms of raw damage/healing output. But some classes/trees (unlike our smashmonkey friends) depend on critprocs as well (TA procs for medicine, energy recovery for lethality). So stacking a bit (!) of crit in favor of power is defendable.

Edited June 4, 2013 by quantez

[dcgregorya]

Stuff...

 

So you decide, at level 55, to try concealment for the first time ever in PVP and don't do well and this is because the spec is bad? Have you considered maybe it takes more than 30 seconds to master?

 

There's a few things here :

 

1) This class, because it is burst based, performs best at 51-55 with augmented gear. It's just a reality, if you don't have them almost dead by the end of the full rotation on the opener your job gets progressively more and more difficult.

 

2) You need to know the rotation like the back of your hand and you need to know when to use what. I'll often snare, back off, hit them from range for a little bit, then come back in for a second backstab. I almost always save explosive depending on how much damage my opener does and what type of class they are...if they're too tanky or too squishy I won't use it - too squishy because its not needed, two tanky because it won't kill them and it'll blow the CD.

 

3) The roll is kinda mandatory for really surviving group brawls.

Edited June 4, 2013 by dcgregorya

[dcgregorya]

Well, I suggest a couple things could have gone wrong. First off your healer gear should be adequate enough for DPS. As recently I have been playing DPS for weeks at a time and still getting the healer gear I was shooting for. For one as a concealment you job a lot of the time is to guard the node, pylon etc. If you don't like guarding the pylon every now and then I would suggest speccing heals again . Personally I love to guard the pylon for whatever reason. As for your problems you could have been going about concealment all the wrong way. The wrong rotation in this spec will trip you up and ultimately won't kill a thing.

 

Rotation from stealth: Acid Blade, Hidden Strike, Shiv, Debilitate, Cover, Explosive Prove, (Acid Blade if you can), Backstab, Shiv, Lacerate, Lacerate, then whatever is needed to kill depending on what is off cooldown.

 

Also, you may have been picking a target in between 2 smashers that immediately ate you up. You have to kinda see your target (if you chose to not guard a node) that will be important to take out, but won't bring you everyone's attention. Maybe a healer that has stranded himself away from his guard, or a Sniper that is really far away from any healers but is picking people off one by one.

So, you could have your rotation wrong or picking bad targets. Possibly you could have run into a group that completely sucks if you only had 1 stab (hehe pun) at Concealment. Hope this helps.

 

HS gives tactical as does shiv. You're missing a lacerate in there somewhere or you're overstacking on TA's.

 

Generally I save explosive, I don't always need it and it has a relatively lengthy cooldown. And I usually go for root before debilitate, so that it's off CD again after debilitate - if needed I'll roll behind them and debilitate if they root break and run for it.

[Syberduh]

Concealment is fine vs. pugs. You can make a group of pugs rage by kiting them around almost indefinitely and picking off the ones who go too far. It's actually a lot of fun. So easy to get around corners, heal up, and keep 4 of them busy while your team destroys the rest. You can also easily stunlock bad players to death. In fact ops are probably the second best 1v1 class after 'sins. Too bad the only 1v1 you'll get in a rated wz is vs. a 'sin and 'sins crush ops 1v1 harder than any other class matchup in the game.

 

In rated, concealment ops just get crushed. They either have to fight in a group battle where ops suck or try a 1v1 vs. the other team's inevitable 'sin solo guard. Sooo squishy with no way to mitigate damage.

[dcgregorya]

Concealment is fine vs. pugs. You can make a group of pugs rage by kiting them around almost indefinitely and picking off the ones who go too far. It's actually a lot of fun. So easy to get around corners, heal up, and keep 4 of them busy while your team destroys the rest. You can also easily stunlock bad players to death. In fact ops are probably the second best 1v1 class after 'sins. Too bad the only 1v1 you'll get in a rated wz is vs. a 'sin and 'sins crush ops 1v1 harder than any other class matchup in the game.

 

In rated, concealment ops just get crushed. They either have to fight in a group battle where ops suck or try a 1v1 vs. the other team's inevitable 'sin solo guard. Sooo squishy with no way to mitigate damage.

 

Assassin is rough yeah - though you can take out a deception sin with very good kiting & rolling if you have adrenaline probe off CD. Tanksin - I've beaten bad ones but I can't imagine losing to an operative *as* a tanksin with the tools they have.

 

I haven't tried them in RWZ so I don't know how well that'd work but their burst & root is appealing for taking down healers with focus fire - plus AOE mez, plus roll. I think they *could* do well with the right team.

Edited June 4, 2013 by dcgregorya

[Mordeguy]

Assassin is rough yeah - though you can take out a deception sin with very good kiting & rolling if you have adrenaline probe off CD. Tanksin - I've beaten bad ones but I can't imagine losing to an operative *as* a tanksin with the tools they have.

 

I haven't tried them in RWZ so I don't know how well that'd work but their burst & root is appealing for taking down healers with focus fire - plus AOE mez, plus roll. I think they *could* do well with the right team.

 

Those things can be utilized better by healing OPs though. The 1-2 warriors will also already be on snaring and mezzing duty. Hard to get a spot over a warrior. Most likely wont get a spot intended for ranged dps, tank, or healer. So it leaves you with a small niche to fill that many teams don't attempt to fill. Which is lone wolf dps. Doesn't work well in games that have splits on their teams, meaning you're never going to run into solo guarders. And then comes the issue of why an operative over an assassin?

 

I play both classes, not speaking out of bias but experience. And that is that the assassin is better. Better burst, better survivability and equal utility (neither excels in utility compared to other specs of the same class).

 

I'm not saying you can't have a DPS op and be winning games, just that you could take another class assuming both players are at an equal skill level, and see even better results. DPS ops just don't really have anything that makes them desirable vs others. That in addition to their huge susceptibility to focus fire compared to assassins and warriors (DPS PTs share the pains of this class well imo, at least they were top dog killing machines for awhile though) makes it hard to justify the dps OP getting a spot unless they are your friend, assuming there is an equally skilled and geared replacement of a more appealing class.

 

Right now trying to get a dps spot as an operative over the better classes is a lot like trying to get a healing spot as a merc over the operative. If the players and gear are equal, most teams will take the OP and understandably so. Doesn't mean the merc isn't a good player that knows his stuff, it's just that it's much easier to peel for an OP and partly due to that and the nature of their skills the OP will do more healing.

 

The silver lining if you can consider this that, is that DPS op is just fine in pug games and really fun. I hope they get a survivability boost though (as long as the healer spec can't take advantage of it).

[PerronCedric]

concealment needs 30% AOE dmg reduction and possibly another defensive ability (proc based or activated) to improve force/tech/kinetic dmg mitigation (rework shield probe???). concealment could also gain a short energy-regen buff when coming out of the exfiltrate roll... or what if sneak could break root/slow effects when activated?

other than that, the raw damage output is fine as it is

 

see you in warzones

Edited June 26, 2013 by PerronCedric

[Ajuntalee]

Rotation from stealth: Acid Blade, Hidden Strike, Shiv, Debilitate, Cover, Explosive Prove, (Acid Blade if you can), Backstab, Shiv, Lacerate, Lacerate, then whatever is needed to kill depending on what is off cooldown

.

 

that is a fail opener,

 

1 - this spe is played all in. if you don't break their neck before they realize what is going on and they put themeselves together, you lose unless you fight a noob,

you need to waste their mobility dot and and kite

or

flashbang heal and prepare a probe+do+acid backstab burst reopening on them

or

dot and combatrestealth

 

after the opener to keep the ball in your hands, if you already go into last ditch lacerate/shiv spam you are basically only dependant on their skill ( or lack theiroff ) to pull the victory.

 

2 - even providing you fight a manekin, you are overstacking TAs HS > 1 - Shiv > 2 blablabla Shiv > 3

oops no max stack is 2 one TA wasted.

 

3 - lacerate,lacerate oops TAs are over, had you popped a corrosive dart earlier in the loop, and you d have a series of 3 sometimes 4 lacerate as a finish spam streak during witch you can shiv for an even longer streak and keep you damage buff up.

 

4 - why use your explosive probe while enemy is eating the grass in front of you, that is a waste of the mobility control, debilitate offer, debilitate is sued to ensure you can land those melee hits. Burning your explosive probe early in the fight is somewhat good idea for the CD, so it might be up again before the fight is over, but I'd rather save if for later if io want to kite another melee where being in cover will have some nice anti gap closing ability, or if i am being kited to have some punch at 30meters.

 

5 - (Acid Blade if you can), the only way you can't acid blade when you need it is if you try to use it twice in a row on 2 following GCd and i don't see any reason why this should ever happen.

 

cc, call inc, open: acid blade, hidden stricke, shiv, lacerate, debilitate, cover, explosive probe,backstab, shiv, lacerate, recloack, hidden stricke. etc.

 

While a much better rotation than the previous one and we have the all in feel into it already, this still aplly.

 

1 - unless you have extremely high alacrity and popped your stimm there is a gap before your debilitate and you are giving the enemy an opportunity to take control of the fight early without forcing him to pop his stunbreaker. and possibly forcing you to burn yours.

 

2 - cc, call inc, your later stunlock and control of the fight rythm will be dictated by your ability to delay or work around the time resolves goes away, it works in your rotation cause you restealth but if you want to keep the opportunity to use the other followups efficiently, and save your vanish for later in the fight you might want to avoid filling 80% of his resolve gauge before even starting the fight unless you have the improved sleep dart cause of hybrid spec, in which case you don't have acid blade and i am not sure it is a good tradeoff when fighting a squishy.

 

3 - why use your explosive probe while enemy is eating the grass in front of you that is a waste of your mobility control. Burning your explosive probe early in the fight is somewhat good idea for the CD it might be up again before the fight is over, but I'd rather save if for later if io want to kite another melee where being in cover will have some nice anti gap closing ability, or if i am being kited to have some punch at 30meters.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Ajuntalee

[PerronCedric]

Edited June 29, 2013 by PerronCedric

[Idaho-D]

hrrrm... glad I read this> I have a level 12 agent pondering Sniper or Operative. I really wanted to be convinced to go Operative and I don't like the turret-play of Marksman, I like to move occasionally. Looks like Sniper/Engineer. I hardly ever PvP, but I always want that option to be good.

[frankiejo]

hrrrm... glad I read this> I have a level 12 agent pondering Sniper or Operative. I really wanted to be convinced to go Operative and I don't like the turret-play of Marksman, I like to move occasionally. Looks like Sniper/Engineer. I hardly ever PvP, but I always want that option to be good.

 

A skilled operative will be more of a boon to a team then a sniper ever will. If it's a rated game then the medic operative is the preferred healer for any team. if you want to solo queue pugs then the concealment operative, while not traditionally over powered, is possibly the best utility class in the game. A concealment operative that is playing to win the game (attacking and defending nodes) is incredibly effective, unfortantley concealment is a bit weak combat wise, but the great thing about pugs is most of the other players are too. Also a concealment operative is great for exploiting the one weakness most pug teams have, poor organization and delayed response time. Concealment is possibly the best solo capper in the game, second maybe to the infiltration assasin.

[Mintygrenade]

I don know what you people are complaining about, I beat the crap out of people most the time, especially when I open out of stealth. You gotta remember to use acid blades before backstabbing and Hidden strikes too. I haven't played 55 pvp on my op yet, but I'm lvl 46 currently and can dominate in a solo fight.

[CaptainApop]

but I'm lvl 46 currently and can dominate in a solo fight.

 

Interesting...tell me more of your protips.

[valeita]

Interesting...tell me more of your protips.

 

no protips, he's right. op dps are really nasty in lowbie pvp, we were talking about 55 pvp where they are just too squishy to live more than 10 secs (usually less).

[CaptainApop]

no protips, he's right. op dps are really nasty in lowbie pvp, we were talking about 55 pvp where they are just too squishy to live more than 10 secs (usually less).

 

Bunch of people talking about lvl 55 pvp and he jumps in with his 46 advising them to apply acid blade before opening. I was just being condescending that's all.

I'm well aware of concealments sketchy position in pvp :[