SWTOR is ultimately a failure becuase

[hages]

Pfft...ridiculous.

 

SWTOR launched EXACTLY as Bioware had envisioned. Then, after losing 2 million subs, they continue to listen to the guys who developed the game. Customers are viewed as disposable and replaceable by Bioware/EA. They're doing exactly what THEY want...still.

 

They never lost 2 mil subs...

sorry i stoped reading afther that!

[LordArtemis]

Listening to the devs originally caused the game to fall flat on it's face shortly after getting out of the gate IMO. The fact that the new dev team is actually listening to those original requests that were ignored and adding customization and QoL features means things have turned the corner here.

 

There's no telling whether or not it will result in positive upward movement for this game...but I would expect that is what is going to happen.

[keysmachine]

They never lost 2 mil subs...

sorry i stoped reading afther that!

 

you're right they lost 6 million

[DarthTHC]

They never lost 2 mil subs...

sorry i stoped reading afther that!

 

Well over 2 million people bought the box. At their lowest point, subscriptions were well under 500,000.

 

Losing 2,000,000 is a reasonable estimate. Could be 1.9, 1.8 but could just as easily be 2.1 or 2.2.

[hages]

Listening to the devs originally caused the game to fall flat on it's face shortly after getting out of the gate IMO. The fact that the new dev team is actually listening to those original requests that were ignored and adding customization and QoL features means things have turned the corner here.

 

There's no telling whether or not it will result in positive upward movement for this game...but I would expect that is what is going to happen.

 

I agree to this. the game is recovering because of the changed they made.

And they do make changes that alot of people wanted. They thing is that not everyone expect the same.

Edited May 28, 2013 by hages

[TUXs]

They never lost 2 mil subs...

sorry i stoped reading afther that!

 

Not sure where you learned to do math, but they sold 2.58 million boxes and are now under 500k. You can stick your head in the sand all you like - but you're wrong.

[hages]

Not sure where you learned to do math, but they sold 2.58 million boxes and are now under 500k. You can stick your head in the sand all you like - but you're wrong.

I do not care even if they had sold 10 mil. They never had more then 2 mil subs

and if you do math 2 mil-2mil = 0 and not 500.

I never said they did not lose alot of subs. because they di. but those numbers where just wrong. And they are recovering from it.

[DarthTHC]

I do not care even if they had sold 10 mil. They never had more then 2 mil subs

and if you do math 2 mil-2mil = 0 and not 500.

I never said they did not lose alot of subs. because they di. but those numbers where just wrong. And they are recovering from it.

 

There's no disputing they are recovering.

 

Every single box represents a subscription - the box comes with 1 month of subscription time. Therefore the maximum potential subscribers based on box sales in TUXs' link is 2,580,000.

 

The lowest the subscriber count ever got was what seems to be well under 500k but was definitely under 500k. This info comes from the most recent EA earnings call during which they said that subscriptions have been increasing steadily and are currently UNDER 500,000.

 

So let's say subs bottomed out at 450k, giving a crapton of benefit of the doubt.

 

Not sure how you do math where you come from, but where I come from, 2,580,000 - 450,000 = 2,130,000, or OVER 2,000,000 subscriptions lost, as TUXs said.

[TUXs]

I do not care even if they had sold 10 mil. They never had more then 2 mil subs

and if you do math 2 mil-2mil = 0 and not 500.

I never said they did not lose alot of subs. because they di. but those numbers where just wrong. And they are recovering from it.

 

Now you're just being foolish. Happen to remember what a box sale came with? I do...a 30-day sub. Every one of those boxes sold was also a subscriber. 2.58 million - 2 million = 580,000 (reality vs. your made up numbers).

[Januaria]

Failure? No.

 

Disappointment? Yes.

[LordArtemis]

I don't think saying that over two million subs lost is unreasonable. I think it should have been worded as POTENTIAL subs however...some of those people never subbed at all. They only purchased the box and played for 30 days. That means technically they were never actual subs to begin with.

 

So, you can say they lost a little over 1.5 million subs, or you can say they lost over 2 million subs, and IMO both statements would be correct.

[asbalana]

They never lost 2 mil subs...

sorry i stoped reading afther that!

 

Well they sold about 2.5M copies, if I remember correctly, before, at, or soon after launch. Each sale came with a month "free" sub. I have no idea how many of those sales actually resulted in a second month paid sub fee. But we are now being told that the game has skyrocketed from bottom to almost 500K subs. So TUXs numbers are not wrong.

 

Perhaps he should have said that 2.5 million plus sales resulted in 2 million plus playes shortly concluding that the game was not worth a sub. We now have had a trillion (slight exaggeration) people try the game f2p and still are at under 500K subs in total. Obviously, most ot the f2ps decided that it was not worth converting to a sub.

 

I would call that a fail if you measure success or failure by whether most potential customers think it is worth subbing to.

 

Edit - It would be interesting to know how many "founders" are still playing and what the average sub retention rate (in months) is.

Edited May 28, 2013 by asbalana

[hages]

Well they sold about 2.5M copies, if I remember correctly, before, at, or soon after launch. Each sale came with a month "free" sub. I have no idea how many of those sales actually resulted in a second month paid sub fee. But we are now being told that the game has skyrocketed from bottom to almost 500K subs. So TUXs numbers are not wrong.

 

Perhaps he should have said that 2.5 million plus sales resulted in 2 million plus playes shortly concluding that the game was not worth a sub. We now have had a trillion (slight exaggeration) people try the game f2p and still are at under 500K subs in total. Obviously, most ot the f2ps decided that it was not worth converting to a sub.

 

I would call that a fail if you measure success or failure by whether most potential customers think it is worth subbing to.

 

Well perhaps i went wrong in my maths then.but yes you are right they made some mistakes and they sufferd from them.

But tbh we have no idea how much paying people we have. yes we have 500k subs but how many f2p players?

And before someone says hey, they are f2p. they spend alot of real money to. Alot of peole who i know spend alot more in the cartel shop then i pay for my sub every month :-)

edit: i am a founder..i played from beta wekends on. but i took a 2 month breack to be fair!

Edited May 28, 2013 by hages

[TUXs]

Well perhaps i went wrong in my maths then.but yes you are right they made some mistakes and they sufferd from them.

But tbh we have no idea how much paying people we have. yes we have 500k subs but how many f2p players?

And before someone says hey, they are f2p. they spend alot of real money to. Alot of peole who i know spend alot more in the cartel shop then i pay for my sub every month :-)

edit: i am a founder..i played from beta wekends on. but i took a 2 month breack to be fair!

 

You like to make assumptions don't you? I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of Cartel Market purchases are from subscribers...not F2Pers.

[ElectricMethod]

I wouldn't say SW:TOR is a failure so much as a comedy of errors. From the outset it's been one of those things where it makes people go 'Are you serious?". For e.g. Mythic; everyone remembers what they did before working on TOR right? Right? Here's a hint... a failed Warhammer MMO. Also, said Warhammer MMO also used the Hero engine, ooops.

 

TOR's engine, a heavily modified Hero engine, can't easily be upgraded or fixed. So we have a game where the devs have a hard time just implementing minor fixes and tweaks. Also, this very same engine, doesn't utilize system resources properly.

 

Now, since the launch of f2p the game does seem to be gaining some strength, but the underlying design problems are STILL there. The removal or fixing of the Hero engine and game performance will be the ultimate decider of if SW:TOR lives or dies.

[asbalana]

 

Not sure how you do math where you come from, but where I come from, 2,580,000 - 450,000 = 2,130,000, or OVER 2,000,000 subscriptions lost, as TUXs said.

 

Your and TUXs math is a little off since it is looking at net numbers based on original sales and current numbers.

 

You missed the subs that came in after launch and those that came in due to f2p. How would you count lost subs that came back for Makeb in the equation? They are lost subs in a way but not really lost.

 

So the number of subs lost is understated by both of you. Kind of makes your head spin.

[macumba]

Bioware listened to the users instead of having a coherent vision of what they wanted to do with the old republic, that is why swtor is such a mess.

 

actually they listened to no one because they thought they were so clever (even ignored beta testers).

they would do whatever gave them a higher metascore and clone as much of wow as they can, with little ideas of their own.

 

in the end topping hardmode with nightmare mode and ghostrunning with medical probes was a terrible idea.

[asbalana]

The removal or fixing of the Hero engine and game performance will be the ultimate decider of if SW:TOR lives or dies.

 

Please check out the Ability Delay thread. That exact observation was made soon after launch.

[LordArtemis]

You like to make assumptions don't you? I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of Cartel Market purchases are from subscribers...not F2Pers.

 

Not sure if it's vast majority, but this statement seems to actually be accurate. EA or Bioware (not sure which, read this but can't present it verbatim) publicly stated that most of the Cartel Market purchases have come from subscribers.

 

This is not the industry norm. So that is surprising and encouraging. It also points to two possibilities....the appeal to become subs is substantial so F2P players, those that would have made the majority of purchases actually subbed to the game, or the Cartel Market is appealing enough to even appeal to subs.

 

Either way it bodes well for the market and the model IMO.

[TUXs]

Not sure if it's vast majority, but this statement seems to actually be accurate. EA or Bioware (not sure which, read this but can't present it verbatim) publicly stated that most of the Cartel Market purchases have come from subscribers.

 

This is not the industry norm. So that is surprising and encouraging. It also points to two possibilities....the appeal to become subs is substantial so F2P players, those that would have made the majority of purchases actually subbed to the game, or the Cartel Market is appealing enough to even appeal to subs.

 

Either way it bodes well for the market and the model IMO.

 

That fact was released at one of the Cantina tour stops. I'd link it, but even without them stating it, it seems rather obvious that people already spending money on the game are most likely to spend more.

[DarthTHC]

Your and TUXs math is a little off since it is looking at net numbers based on original sales and current numbers.

 

You missed the subs that came in after launch and those that came in due to f2p. How would you count lost subs that came back for Makeb in the equation? They are lost subs in a way but not really lost.

 

So the number of subs lost is understated by both of you. Kind of makes your head spin.

 

Nope. The number of subs lost is simple math.

 

Around 2.58 million people subscribed to the game for at least one month. Under 500,000 currently subscribe. Around 2.08 million people who used to be subscribers, no longer are. Period. That's over 2 million lost subscribers.

 

Now you can say that more than 2.58 million have tried the game due to f2p, and that would be fair. And you could say some number of them were subscribers at one point and may or may no longer be. And you can guess at that number but it doesn't matter what it is and I'll show you why.

 

Let's say that the number of people who never bought the box but did sub at least 1 month from f2p is 100,000, which brings the total people who ever subscribed to this game to 2.68 million.

 

But that doesn't change the current number of subscribers, which per the most recent EA earnings call is still something shy of 500,000 but we can round up.

 

Under the scenario of 100,000 f2p players subbing and leaving, we have 2.18 million former subscribers instead of 2.08 million. Intriguing how that math works out, isn't it?

Edited May 28, 2013 by DarthTHC

[kirorx]

This game is a failure?

[DarthTHC]

You like to make assumptions don't you? I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of Cartel Market purchases are from subscribers...not F2Pers.

 

My money is with TUXs on this one. The vast majority of CM revenue comes from subscribers.

[TUXs]

This game is a failure?

 

Depends what your definition is. Failure to the players? Largely, as evidenced by 4 of every 5 subscribers/purchasers leaving it. Financially? Not sure but I doubt it - 2.58 million x $60 = $155 million + subs + CM.

[clocknane]

Bioware listened to the users instead of having a coherent vision of what they wanted to do with the old republic, that is why swtor is such a mess.

 

Hah, you obviously didn't play the game during its beta and for a month or two after. MANY reasons why this game failed early on, and certain peeps left Bioware (you can google that too). I will give you a hint.. it starts with 100 million dollars plus worth of investments being thrown at a game, only to have a specific team (you can put 2 + 2 together), re-do the art style during alpha to beta transitional phases. I was apart of the huge pre-order crowd that played the game for two months to start, and also read about how they had to delay it due to so many issues. The investors finally got sick of the delays and said release it already, and then, an un-finished game was born (legacy not in the game at launch anyone remember)??

 

My point is, this game was doomed from early on due to issues. You can just Google SWTOR Launch issues. I believe the Bioware/EA teams became too overwhelmed, and quit caring. When they saw the project was a loss, people jetted, and abandoned ship, before things really got ugly, or they were fired, you be the judge.

 

I play now because I have friends to play with and still enjoy SWTOR. But, there is still no denying the issues that occurred to start.