oJebuso Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 People really need to understand the definition of Pay to Win. Pay to win is where you pay money to gain a game play advantage over another player, whom has no alternate means of achieving that same advantage without paying. This P2W argument I see pop up every now and then is almost as retarded as the people who want SWTOR to be ported over to a new game engine (the entire game would have to be completely rebuilt from the ground up), they don't actually understand what they are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spatology Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 People really need to understand the definition of Pay to Win. Pay to win is where you pay money to gain a game play advantage over another player, whom has no alternate means of achieving that same advantage without paying. This P2W argument I see pop up every now and then is almost as retarded as the people who want SWTOR to be ported over to a new game engine (the entire game would have to be completely rebuilt from the ground up), they don't actually understand what they are talking about. This scenario is akin to a donator on a private server, nothing in real mmo's today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Will the over 40's club stop dropping insults. I realize you guys have kept this game afloat by buying hundrededs of dollars each week/month, and my measly subscription is nothing next to your investments. Why shouldnt you be able to just stand around and get your gear in the mailbox, right? I guess were not in logical argument mode any longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 (edited) Its a madhouse in here, and we are takin alot of heat. Yes, we should try to include all opnions in this discussion. No, there arent such things as "diffrent version's of the facts" Facts are facts. CM items are worth in game credits. In game credits can afford you gear. Said gear makes you overgear all content with the exception of 2 instances. Im not throwing my own flavor on this snowcone, its meltin by itself. Well, I think I figured out this thread. This thread seems to have served two purposes...one, to demonstrate in small form that a few community members can stand against many with an opinion and refuse to see reason....which of course is thier right, though it seems a bit silly to continue to ignore inconvenient things like FACTS and DEFINITIONS...... ...and also the opportunity to engage in forum PVP. Seen plenty of that on both sides. I have to wonder exactly what the OP expected this thread would accomplish. I'm still waiting for the logical discussion. I'm sure it's in here somewhere..... Edited May 25, 2013 by LordArtemis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oJebuso Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 This scenario is akin to a donator on a private server, nothing in real mmo's today. Then I guess that means most real MMO's today still aren't Pay 2 win? Not sure where you were going with that to be honest... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArielaKnight Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Well, I think I figured out this thread. This thread seems to have served two purposes...one, to demonstrate in small form that a few community members can stand against many with an opinion and refuse to see reason....which of course is thier right, though it seems a bit silly to continue to ignore inconvenient things like FACTS and DEFINITIONS...... ...and also the opportunity to engage in forum PVP. Seen plenty of that on both sides. I have to wonder exactly what the OP expected this thread would accomplish. I'm still waiting for the logical discussion. I'm sure it's in here somewhere..... This. I could have sworn a discussion is where two individuals or groups of people discuss something without people coming at them telling them they are disrespectful when they have a different opinion. So far what I have seen is two individuals who want their way no matter if people disagree with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadOrb Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Well I think giving the crafters in this game a reason to craft is a great thing , they felt very much left out for months and why not let them sell mods that are one level below the top tier ? I do get the point some posters are trying to make , but it isn't P2W or veiled P2W at all. You see I am an old school MMO player and it did indeed upset me a little that the game was getting a cash shop blah blah blah. I also didn't really like the fact that you can/could easily spend lots of real cash to buy stuff then sell them on the GTN. I guess I prefer a fully subbed game really , some people don't even like buying from GTN's/player shops at all for their gear in fully subbed games , I didn't mind earning in-game credits and buying some weapons off of players or shops in fully subbed games. Anyways a new paragraph to explain why I went into the above , well I just thought , I won't buy any CC ever ( sorry BW/EA ) because I don't want to falsely gain an advantage buy paying money into something and selling such items for in-game credits. So I just use my stipend. Since the game went F2P , all of us that have bought sold anything on the GTN or off another player have been contaminated by the influx of real money going into the game via the methods you speak of. I just seem more pure than most as I don't buy CC to then gain in-game credits. Understand ? We are all in it together. Just different gamer's have different ways of playing this game now , I just chose my preferred method. I'm just glad the game still has a subb model. Cheers, BadOrb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spatology Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 yeah, im about spent on the argueing deal. Ive presented my points and defended them. I can see when im in the minority though. The actions Bioware/EA are takeing in the next few weeks will blur the lines as far as what is acceptable and unacceptable for a gamin company to offer its customers. This game is moving towards a disgusting shadow of what it once was. A decrepit system of corruption run by who has the most money in their RL pockets, instead of a place where people could come together and accompligh goals to acheive greatness. If the majority of the player base is behind this move, sure, go ahead, have your cake and eat it too. The novelty will wear off soon. Your dressup dolls will have very little actually engageing fun content to do. The story will dry up, your pvp will die, noone will know what a flashpoint is anymore. Day after day, Alone on a hill, The man with the foolish grin is keeping perfectly still But nobody wants to know him, They can see that he's just a fool, And he never gives an answer, But the fool on the hill, Sees the sun going down, And the eyes in his head, See the world spinning 'round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oJebuso Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 yeah, im about spent on the argueing deal. Ive presented my points and defended them. I can see when im in the minority though. The actions Bioware/EA are takeing in the next few weeks will blur the lines as far as what is acceptable and unacceptable for a gamin company to offer its customers. This game is moving towards a disgusting shadow of what it once was. A decrepit system of corruption run by who has the most money in their RL pockets, instead of a place where people could come together and accompligh goals to acheive greatness. If the majority of the player base is behind this move, sure, go ahead, have your cake and eat it too. The novelty will wear off soon. Your dressup dolls will have very little actually engageing fun content to do. The story will dry up, your pvp will die, noone will know what a flashpoint is anymore. Day after day, Alone on a hill, The man with the foolish grin is keeping perfectly still But nobody wants to know him, They can see that he's just a fool, And he never gives an answer, But the fool on the hill, Sees the sun going down, And the eyes in his head, See the world spinning 'round. I think you need to get out more if this is disturbing you deeply. It's a video game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediJonesJr Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Two and a half Jawa's how about those jawa's ain't they sumptin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddballEasyEight Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Well you cant really Pay to Win in a PvE game anyway. PvP, sure... but thats not possible here. For now, you can Pay to Skip-a-bit more or less... But i think whats really upsetting the OP is that he worked hard for his stuff (or really, he grinded hard) and now others can "just buy" them instead. And this is upsetting to him since he worked real hard (agian, repeated the same task over and over). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midgen Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 The best you can call this game is 'Pay to Improve' (using OP's example), or "Pay to Skip a few dailies". You aren't winning by converting cartel items to credits. End game raiding, especially the NiM 16 man stuff, more than anything else, requires a good, coordinated team of players with BiS gear. No amount of real money or credits it going to make that happen. It might make the path getting to that a little easier, but it's not going to let you 'Win the Game"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 The game was in a horrible state at launch and fell flat on it's face. It has nowhere to go but up. The very idea that it is worse off now than it was after launch is absolutely ridiculous IMO. Not to mention the fact that you have to ignore the game's performance all the way up to F2P to even make such a silly contention. I get it. Some folks hate F2P. I expect you would hate the game going POOF a bit more however. Because that is exactly where it was heading. It was bleeding out IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorelthesecond Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 (edited) Crystals are the same as lv. 50 ones. No pay to win. Ship parts? Who exactly do you win against?The easily outmanuevered script? Yes they are and that's the point. I can buy crystals with lvl 50 stats on them from the cash shop with 41exp and use them at any lvl and have an advantage over other people in pvp. As for the ship parts pay to win isn't only pvp. I can buy the very best ship parts in the game and I have more of a chance at successfully completing the missions then people who didn't buy the ship parts. Sure other people can get the same ship parts I have in game but that takes time so people who just buy the parts with real money pay to win as it lets them bypass content and get to the very end. But at the moment like I said before it could be a lot worse and be fully pay to win like Rift http://forums.riftgame.com/public-test-shard/359646-rift-officially-paytowin.html Edited May 25, 2013 by lorelthesecond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NogueiraA Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 This game is Pay2Outfit. People really like to play outfit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elfa Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Uh, yes, you can? i dont understand what you are pointing out... You can 100% atm buy stuff off the CM, liquidate it on the GTM to credits, and turn around and buy 69 mods. Bioware is suggesting bumbing the craftable mods to 72's. Higher then the gear which drops in flashpoints and other content that can be accomplished with little to no effort. This is further comprimiseing the value of a subscription to do operations by making the rewards of said operations accessible without doing said operations. Why not just buy all the cool stuff of the CM, sell some of it and get my 72 mods. Then hang out in the fleet since i now out gear most content available. And in return, they're upping the mod levels dropped in the new NiM ops to 75's, so once again, you can only get the best stuff from raiding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elfa Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 This game is Pay2Outfit. People really like to play outfit. Well, this MMO like all of them that focus on armor are basically barbies with weapons, it is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eitetsu Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Step 1: Do dailies. Step 2: Do more dailies. Step 3: Do even more dailies. Step 4: Recieve your Money and comms. Step 5: Buy gear that allows you to go into any instance Step 6: Clear hardest content in game while skipping 99% of other content. There. Fixed it for you so that you can take that hard earned real life money and have a nice dinner with the wife. No, no. You don't have to thank me. This one's on the house. +1 internet. A winrar is you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddballEasyEight Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Yes they are and that's the point. I can buy crystals with lvl 50 stats on them from the cash shop with 41exp and use them at any lvl and have an advantage over other people in pvp. As for the ship parts pay to win isn't only pvp. I can buy the very best ship parts in the game and I have more of a chance at successfully completing the missions then people who didn't buy the ship parts. Sure other people can get the same ship parts I have in game but that takes time so people who just buy the parts with real money pay to win as it lets them bypass content and get to the very end. But at the moment like I said before it could be a lot worse and be fully pay to win like Rift http://forums.riftgame.com/public-test-shard/359646-rift-officially-paytowin.html Anyone can buy those crystals for in-game credits. So thats not pay 2 win since everyone has the same chance of buying them (in fact, since they are from random boxes, youre better off buying them for in-game money) and they are not very expensive (unless you get picky about colours). Ship parts are available on the GTN as well. And also purchesable with fleet comms. So no pay 2 win there either. Except in your very thinly stretched way of "pay real money to get more in-game money so you can buy decent gear so you can get to the BiS gear faster", but thats not Pay 2 Win. Like ive said earlier, it might be pay to skip, but thats it at the most. Personally ive made millions of credits from selling unopened cartel packs. And ive spent those millions on buying outfits more or less. I havent bought a single mod for any of my armour sets or weapons since i can get better mods from drops. And i havent even bought any for my alts while leveling since i have the required crafting skills to keep my alts fully geared with mods throughout leveling. The only thing ive done to "twink" my alts is give them a +41 endurance crystal. And that has done almost nothing when it comes to PvP since every semi-smart PvP player has a +41 crystal (either bought for real money through random packs, or with in-game credits through the GTN). And considering you can get those crystals for around 20k on my server on a good day, i wouldnt say its hard to get one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalthazarCeres Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 people buying equipment from cartel market is like people buying TCG and mounts from blizzard store. because they like how the item looks like. ppl buy mounts from blizz because they think it's cool same thing about equipments... and latelly i see people more worried about dyes than gear >.> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalthazarCeres Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 (edited) this game isn't pay to win i'll give you an example of a true pay2win game. DIGIMON MASTERS ONLINE this game is pay to win, why? because if u want ANYTHING, evolve, capture, u MUST buy the items with cash, using real money in swtor, u can do operations, space battles, flashpoints, pvp, dailies without spending 1 cent pay to win is a game where you have NO CHOICE but to use real money if you want to do anything. Edited May 26, 2013 by MalthazarCeres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockaday Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 In game credits can afford you gear. Said gear makes you overgear all content with the exception of 2 instances. Im not throwing my own flavor on this snowcone, its meltin by itself. lolol, sorry I couldn't resist. Arkanian is the same level as BM. Just different mods...so in reality, you're not all that over geared. You also infact, have the same gear level as running flash points...just with better mods. (lower endurance high mitigation). So...yeah, you're not buying anything good. If you want to, go right ahead. Pre 2.0 you could buy full raid gear...and even then, it was easier / cheaper just to pvp for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippiechick Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 People really need to understand the definition of Pay to Win. Pay to win is where you pay money to gain a game play advantage over another player, whom has no alternate means of achieving that same advantage without paying. . OR there is an imbalance favoring the payer. Say, I have to play 20 hours to get 100 xp (made that number up so dont even go there) yet you bought 100 xp on the CM. Now, you are a level higher with no effort or time but for me to get a level higher without spending real money it takes me 20 hours. THAT is pay to win as much as "the best gear in the game". I find it interesting how people tolerate it. Many things other than 'the best gear in the game that you cant get outside of cash shop" make a game pay to win. If you can raise your rep with a faction by buying it on the market but the in game equivalent is a weeks worth of grinding, it is pay to win. People who are happy with the game over all will tolerate more than the people who are generally unhappy with it will, but mark my words, every time they get away with a little thing it is one step closer to "the best gear in the game" being on that market. M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildbloodX Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 Court finds you guilty of failboating. We also find your pants to be delightfully amusing. lmao, best yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 Well, I can't argue against the point that the direction the market is going may not bode well for the game. I cannot tell the future. Though I think the definition of the words P2W is not relevant, the point still remains that some items in the store (not many) can give you a boost without working hard for it in the game. That can be said for the legacy system as well. I personally think it is exactly the direction the game should take and am not concerned. But that's me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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