Isnt exfiltrate/scamper a bit over the top for Huttball?

[MidichIorian]

The majority of games are normal warzones and it's far from a given that you will have a scoundrel/operative on the team. Is it really a good game mechanic that a game mode requires a specific class and that you should be forced to form a premade with one, incase HB shows up, at all times?

 

It's just discouraging to have the other team grab the ball before you've even manged to get up the ramp. Add to the problem that it's not uncommon that the scoundrel/operative belongs to a premade, who occassionally knows what they are doing and already had an advantage. So one team will score in 20 secs and two guys will drop on the other team. In the confusion of trying to figure out what just happened "the losing" team will probably be spread out now, which allows the "winning" team to quickly score a few more balls. More people drop or start to care even less about the objective.

 

I'd say that scamper/exfiltrate ruins Huttball more than bubble stun ever did to warzones in general. Not that i see scoundrels/operatives use the ability to the same effect on other maps but to prevent the ability in itself from being nerfed, how about putting a ball pick-up debuff after a roll or increasing the cost in HB to reduce the amount of rolls? At this point it doesnt matter that they're running ourt of energy because if they manage to get and pass the ball or roll all the way to a score from mid they've accomplished what they set out to do. It's the equivalent of letting sages/sorcs use force speed four times in a row. Actually, it's worse because with the lag that takes place during a roll it's hard to see where the heck they are going.

 

It's not fun.

[Astarica]

The biggest problem with the roll is that it allows you to setup advantageous positions that no other abiltiies comes close to. People always say 'there was Predation' but Predation didn't let you grab the ball before anyone can even target you. A lot of the time the guy who grabbed the ball with Predation just becomes victim #1 to the opposing team's focus fire.

 

I've been thinking about this issue for a bit and my suggestion would be put a 20s CD on roll if used outside of combat, and 5s if used while in combat. Going into combat automatically ends the CD on roll. DPS Ops can spec with an ability high up in the tree that reduces the in combat CD to 0. This ability really isn't that overpowered when used in combat, because it implies someone is aware of you and can possibly put a snare on you, and even without a snare, just the fact that you're in combat means the enemy obviously managed to get within 30m of you somehow.

[MidichIorian]

The biggest problem with the roll is that it allows you to setup advantageous positions that no other abiltiies comes close to. People always say 'there was Predation' but Predation didn't let you grab the ball before anyone can even target you. A lot of the time the guy who grabbed the ball with Predation just becomes victim #1 to the opposing team's focus fire.

Exactly, as soon as you notice that your team as a "roller" you don't have to worry about going mid at start. Instead you're able to take the ledges and move up for a pass. The other team on the other hand will have dropped before they've figured out what's going on so now they're stuck in the crossfire from all sides while the team with the ball can can comfortably score.

[Masarko]

A Scoundrel/Operative whos spam rolling to the ball with either have 0 energy, or will have to pop cooldowns, which means they wont have it later.

 

Keep that in mind

[limenutpen]

A Scoundrel/Operative whos spam rolling to the ball with either have 0 energy, or will have to pop cooldowns, which means they wont have it later.

 

Keep that in mind

 

AMEN to that! 4-5 rolls equals no energy, to refill takes about 15 secs. Plus it is only an advantage at start, after that it will depend how much you control mid. 1 score does not win you a Hutt-Ball.

[Rygho]

A Scoundrel/Operative whos spam rolling to the ball with either have 0 energy, or will have to pop cooldowns, which means they wont have it later.

 

Keep that in mind

 

Roll to ball. Roll to pit/ramps. Pass to assassin/shadow. Stealth. Roll to ball. Roll to pit/ramps. Pass to merc/mando. /stuck. Roll to ball. Roll to pit/ramps. Pass to sorc/sage. Stealth. Roll to ball. Roll to pit/ramps. Pass to assassin/shadow. /stuck. Roll to ball. Roll to pit/ramps. Pass to merc/mando. Stealth. Roll to ball. Roll to pit/ramps. Pass to sorc/sage. Victory.

 

You only need to run normally for a brief second between the first and second, the second and third, and the third and fourth rolls to keep energy regen up high enough to get 3-4 extra rolls out of your energy pool. Pugnacity's alacrity boost will regen even more and, of course, there's cool head.

 

I'm not saying it's broken or needs a hard nerf but in huttball it's practically two free goals at minimum.

[Masarko]

Roll to ball. Roll to pit/ramps. Pass to assassin/shadow. Stealth. Roll to ball. Roll to pit/ramps. Pass to merc/mando. /stuck. Roll to ball. Roll to pit/ramps. Pass to sorc/sage. Stealth. Roll to ball. Roll to pit/ramps. Pass to assassin/shadow. /stuck. Roll to ball. Roll to pit/ramps. Pass to merc/mando. Stealth. Roll to ball. Roll to pit/ramps. Pass to sorc/sage. Victory.

 

You only need to run normally for a brief second between the first and second, the second and third, and the third and fourth rolls to keep energy regen up high enough to get 3-4 extra rolls out of your energy pool. Pugnacity's alacrity boost will regen even more and, of course, there's cool head.

 

I'm not saying it's broken or needs a hard nerf but in huttball it's practically two free goals at minimum.

 

Against clueless people yes, if you dont know how to intercept a long range pass, well GG sir.

 

And considering carrying the ball counts as a slow, it will be 6meter roll which is USELESS unless you roll over the fire pit

 

A stunned Operative without support is kinda cake, seriously, what you took into account in your post was all about ONE team, theres 8 other too, if they cant do anything, why bother? just leave the warzone

Edited May 23, 2013 by Masarko

[SettGirkkurn]

Seriously? Again this?

I think that even if we have only 1 class and 1 advanced class, people would still whine about something being op.

Deal with it. Im pissed when I take my operative and get stun/smash-spammed the moment I show up. I hate that they reduced burst on PT. I hate that healing now in WZ is crazy. Lots of things bugs me. But at the end I dont give 2 ***** about it when I exit the zone regardless if we lost 6:0 in Huttball or won 100:0 in Novare coast.

Maybe if people spend more time (and, no I dont think I can PVP good, but I dont care about it either) in game instead of writing on forums, it would be better. Maybe even more fun too...

As of "scamper" op... Stun it, root it, electronet it EVERYTHING works. Its not hidraulic overrides which are immune on movement impairing effects. Not to mention that it consumes LOADS of energy. Not to mention that its only 12m, 6m if snared. But that doesnt matter to you, does it. You got fixation to whine about it and you just do. And personally I dont give 2 ***** about it being nerfed either. Im not using it for that, and I hate Huttball. Heck, while at it, just buff some more sins, and give some knockback to mara too... I mean, its most played class anyway, they have to keep their fan base...

[szczypaczek]

how about flying guardian style? xD

[Jorojus]

A Scoundrel/Operative whos spam rolling to the ball with either have 0 energy, or will have to pop cooldowns, which means they wont have it later.

 

Keep that in mind

 

Don't spam it then, roll once, energy regen in 1-2 secs. Roll again, if you are concealment use sneak in between the rolls. Rince and repeat and you are almost as fast as a speeder. If you are not concealment run a little longer in between the rolls to regain energy. If you have a marauder with predation in your team, even better.

 

 

Like Astarica says in this topic, this should only be for concealment ops in pvp with a skill high in the tree to reduce the cooldown to 0. Lethality and Medics have better defenses through their tree. If a concealment operative starts rolling outside of hutball it means he is very aware that you are about to kill him. Just don't let him get away. Root, pull, slow.

 

There has been alot of complaints about classes not beeing viable in ranked warzones, I see that Bioware is actively adjusting the classes so you'll need one of each class in a team in the end. And besides that you'll still have other options, I think that is their goal.

 

Still, Rome wasn't build in a day either, so I suggest to keep up bringing the constructive critisism and leave the pointless whining behind.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Jorojus

[MidichIorian]

how about flying guardian style? xD

Still requires a tad more, in terms of setup, than simply clicking a button four times.

 

Anyhow, i think some people are stuck on the idea that operative/scoundrel "deserved" something. They have far from the worst dps alternative and their healing would get nerfed to the ground if I was in charge. Implementing a game breaking mechanic to make up for what people think they're entitled to is BS. Scamper in NWZ HB the equivalent of giving a class the ability to make one pylon un-cappable in the first round of AHG. Sure, you can get the ball back or head for the other pylon, which now is capped and protected, but it gives the other team a huge advantage that you in no way could have prevented. And that's the thing, there is no counter for a initial-spawn scamper. Even if I complain about ops healing and others complain about assassins and other stuff we're atleast able to try to counter those.

 

Instead of thinking of it as a class nerf, which operatives/scoundrels inevitably do of course, you should try to look at how it ruins games, normal warzones specifically. And since I don't see them changing the structure of how people are matched within a near future I'd say that scamper needs a tweak in HB.

Edited May 23, 2013 by MidichIorian

[SettGirkkurn]

Instead of thinking of it as a class nerf, which operatives/scoundrels inevitably do of course, you should try to look at how it ruins games, normal warzones specifically. And since I don't see them changing the structure of how people are matched within a near future I'd say that scamper needs a tweak in HB.

 

Ok, lets put it this way. Since you think its HUEG advantage. Please explain how it supposed to work, taking into consideration that its 12m roll, that it takes loads of your energy pool and that its completely interuptable by snares, pulls, push, stuns.

And when you do, you will have no doubt that it will be nerf, and nerf of something that gives you advantage if you know how to use it properly. It perfectly possible to counter it, since I have tried it in one Huttball, and literally had no idea what happened as I was stunned/rooted and dead in literally 4 seconds.

Why you can pull your friend from near end zone pit all the way up with your sorc? Why sentinel can leap up with carying the ball when you push him down to the end zone pit? Why jugg can leap to friend. Mind you that its both vertical and horizontal jumps. Why PT can pull people into the fire. Why you cant interupt hidraulic overrides? Seriously?

Push operative when he get off the ramp near your endzone into the pit below and he needs to scamper his *** through half of the map to get back. Push sentinel, and he will just leap back to you and walk in endzone.

As I said, introduce only 1 class and 1 advanced class, and you will have your "balanced" PVP experience.

[Jorojus]

Still requires a tad more, in terms of setup, than simply clicking a button four times.

 

Anyhow, i think some people are stuck on the idea that operative/scoundrel "deserved" something. They have far from the worst dps alternative and their healing would get nerfed to the ground if I was in charge. Implementing a game breaking mechanic to make up for what people think they're entitled to is BS. Scamper in NWZ HB the equivalent of giving a class the ability to make one pylon un-cappable in the first round of AHG. Sure, you can get the ball back or head for the other pylon, which now is capped and protected, but it gives the other team a huge advantage that you in no way could have prevented. And that's the thing, there is no counter for a initial-spawn scamper. Even if I complain about ops healing and others complain about assassins and other stuff we're atleast able to try to counter those.

 

Instead of thinking of it as a class nerf, which operatives/scoundrels inevitably do of course, you should try to look at how it ruins games, normal warzones specifically. And since I don't see them changing the structure of how people are matched within a near future I'd say that scamper needs a tweak in HB.

 

About wich spec of operatives are you talking ?

Edited May 23, 2013 by Jorojus

[Masarko]

About wich spec of operatives are you talking ?

 

I wanna know too, none of the specs are comparable to any spec in my eyes, but if you wanna farm damage numbers i guess you lethality which is not so lethal

[MidichIorian]

There are two things you people are completely ignoring, things I've specifically pointed out:

 

*The main issue is scamper from initial spawn, as in the first spawn in the match. You can't root, slow etc someone when you are heading out of the spawn area and they are on the other side of the map. The scoundrel will get the ball every time and it doesnt matter that he's low on energy because he will pass it to one of his team mates, team mates who know about the roll and are heading up enemy ramps instead of going for ball spawn.

 

*I've pointed out, more than once, that I'm refering to normal warzones. This is where people will quit the second the enemies score and when it happens within the first 20 seconds of the game, because of rolls, it's game over. There are ways of countering it, send people to sides instead of mid to prevent that a potential scamper pass isnt going to an enemy with a clear path, BUT it's more or less impossible to organize something like that in a pug. Not to mention that a good deal of people on the EU servers are lost when it comes to the English language.

 

As for classes worse than operative/scoundrel, I would rather have a scoundrel/ops dps than a commando/merc or even tele/lightning sage/sorc because they are atleast able to play the objective. Something the other two generally can't do unless people babysit them. If we're talking about players of average skill, as in the normal pug player, I'd say that it's on par with most other specs in the game, on behalf of them not being able to play those porperly either.

Edited May 23, 2013 by MidichIorian

[Jorojus]

There are two things you people are completely ignoring, thing I've specifically pointed out:

 

*The main issue is scamper from initial spawn, as in the first spawn in the match. You can't root, slow etc someone when you are heading out of the spawn area and they are on the other side of the map. The scoundrel will get the ball every time and it doesnt matter that he's low on energy because he will pass it to one of his team mates, team mates who know about the roll and are heading up enemy ramps instead of going for ball spawn.

 

*I've pointed out, more than once, that I'm refering to normal warzones. This is where people will quit the second the enemies score and when it happens within the first 20 seconds of the game, because of rolls, it's game over. There are ways of countering it, send people to sides instead of mid to prevent that a potential scamper pass isnt going to an enemy with a clear path, BUT it's more or less impossible to organize something like that in a pug. Not to mention that a good deal of people on the EU servers are lost when it comes to the English language.

 

As for classes worse than operative/scoundrel, I would rather have a scoundrel/ops dps than a commando/merc or even tele/lightning sage/sorc because they are atleast able to play the objective. Something the other two generally can't do unless people babysit them. If we're talking about players of average skill, as in the normal pug player, I'd say that it's on par with most other specs in the game, on behalf of them not being able to play those porperly either.

 

Ok let me tell you what you are ignoring, if each team has a scoundrel they will race for the ball. Best player takes it for his team. If you want to complain about random match ups, go complain about matchmaking systems, not about the roll.

 

In previous patches it was the marauder who decided who got the ball. before that assasins if there wouldn't be any predation.

 

"He has a lollipop, I want one too"

Edited May 23, 2013 by Jorojus

[stupidsyrup]

The majority of games are normal warzones and it's far from a given that you will have a scoundrel/operative on the team. Is it really a good game mechanic that a game mode requires a specific class and that you should be forced to form a premade with one, incase HB shows up, at all times?

 

It's just discouraging to have the other team grab the ball before you've even manged to get up the ramp. Add to the problem that it's not uncommon that the scoundrel/operative belongs to a premade, who occassionally knows what they are doing and already had an advantage. So one team will score in 20 secs and two guys will drop on the other team. In the confusion of trying to figure out what just happened "the losing" team will probably be spread out now, which allows the "winning" team to quickly score a few more balls. More people drop or start to care even less about the objective.

 

I'd say that scamper/exfiltrate ruins Huttball more than bubble stun ever did to warzones in general. Not that i see scoundrels/operatives use the ability to the same effect on other maps but to prevent the ability in itself from being nerfed, how about putting a ball pick-up debuff after a roll or increasing the cost in HB to reduce the amount of rolls? At this point it doesnt matter that they're running ourt of energy because if they manage to get and pass the ball or roll all the way to a score from mid they've accomplished what they set out to do. It's the equivalent of letting sages/sorcs use force speed four times in a row. Actually, it's worse because with the lag that takes place during a roll it's hard to see where the heck they are going.

 

It's not fun.

 

OH MY GOD IT'S ANOTHER OP/SCOUNDREL NERF THREAD! This thing is gonna be nerfed before my Sawbones gets it. I've seen it in action, even out of combat it's not that big of a roll. I raced a guy with it once, me with sprint, he would roll, he only beat me to the goal 5 METERS ahead of me. And if that scenario you began with actually happens, you need to leave that WZ because your team has no brain. Look up to the sky to see the purple/yellow light. Even with CD's popped there is NO WAY he can take that ball all the way to the endzone.

 

"Tis not logical"

Spock

Edited May 23, 2013 by stupidsyrup

[Dawncatcher]

Even though scamper helps me get the ball from mid fast, I wouldn't say it's that overpowered, because that doesn't mean I'll be able to keep the ball, especially in PUG where my team isn't doing much in the way of supporting me.

 

First off, after getting the ball, contrary to what might be a ball carrier's first instinct, I should *not* start running towards the goal right away. The rest of my team is still far behind me, even if a sentinel popped transcendence. And it's quite possible a sentinel didn't pop transcendence, and on my server at least, imperials seem better at popping predation at the start of Huttball than sentinels are at popping transcendence. Which means there's a zerg right in front of me and help far behind. Immediately trying to start running towards the goal would be running into a zerg. I can't even make it to the air-lifts on the sides before I get stunned and zerged to death. Only chance is, contrary to first instinct, run backwards towards my team and hope there is someone directly behind me to pass to who has enough sense not to leap at an imperial just as I am trying to pass to them, and that I can last long enough before I'm stunned to actually make the pass, but usually even if there is someone behind me, they don't have that much sense, and run/leap out of the passing circle just as I am trying to pass, and either an imperial gets the ball or it resets. Better yet would be if a sage pulled me back so I would have time to make the pass safely, but no sage has ever figured this out. I've seen sorcerers do it to enemy operatives, though.

 

In any case, on the rare occasion there's someone behind me, clear to pass to, with enough sense to stay more or less still while I'm passing and not get into melee with an imperial who might intercept, then after I make the pass I can start healing them and the game might go in our favor (or possibly just die right after making the pass, but perhaps they'll still be okay... maybe), especially since if we score first, the team is more likely to have the sense to control mid and make passing lanes rather than just chasing a ball carrier who always passes before they can kill him and letting the imperials control mid so they can do the same thing 6 times in a row.

 

If I try to run forward or to the airlifts, I will be stunned and die before the stun ends. If I hit my cc'break, I will be re-stunned or even if I'm not, I won't be able to heal through the damage -- I might be able to hit Disappear, but then they'll just get the ball from mid. This may happen even if I try to run back towards my team. 19/20 no one will heal or guard me, but may still yell at me for dying with the ball.

 

If there's a second scoundrel, it may be better to let them get the ball so I can heal them (I am sawbones specced, but they might not be); that said, if I get to mid first, it's not worth waiting and letting an operative get it just in the hopes that the second scoundrel can get it first.

 

The moral of this isn't that a scoundrel's or operative's ability to make the race to mid better than any other class isn't valuable, but that teamwork and coordination, preferably over voice, is very important, and without it, it's just one puzzle with nothing to connect to. If there's a sentinel, they need to pop transcendence right at the start, before the scoundrel scampers out of range. Everyone should use their speed cooldowns so they can get towards mid as fast as possible to support the scoundrel. A tank should guard the scoundrel. If possible, a sage should pull the scoundrel back out of the line of immediate fire so they can have time to make a pass safely. Even if not, someone, preferably a tank of some sort, should be behind the scoundrel and wait for a pass, not leaping at or deliberately getting into melee with imperials. Preferably multiple people, so if an imperial leaps at one, at least someone else will hopefully be in the clear. If the scoundrel doesn't manage to pass before getting stunned, hopefully she isn't the only healer, and the other healer is close and attentive enough to help, or there's at least someone with the sense to off-heal even if not traited for it.

 

Voice really helps a ton for Huttball, as without it, people often run/leap/airlift away or line of sight you just as you are trying to pass, or not know you are trying to pass and deliberately melee imperials rather than even make the attempt to get clear. I've even seen sages pull an imperial towards them as I passed so by the time the ball finished flying through the air, the imperial caught it. Plus voice also helps people tell you if they're in your clear for passing but you haven't seen them. And I never get yelled at for dying with the ball over voice where I can say that I'm stunned and need help, but without voice, people often seem incapable of noticing this.

 

Without a coordinated team, a scoundrel getting the ball first is like a scoundrel ninjaing snow in the Civil War, but not being able to hold it because everyone except the guy at grass stays at mid trying to take that and a couple imperials (or just one good enough to kill the scoundrel 1v1) come kill the scoundrel and take it back, before returning to defend mid. Except that playing a good passing game in Huttball is more complicated than defending snow, and while voice can give a big advantage in any map (especially if there's a good target caller on voice), the difference is perhaps more pronounced in Huttball.

 

No one can solo a score in Huttball unless the other team literally does nothing to stop them. Which I have managed to do once, but only because there were no imperials at mid, or at their goal, or anywhere in-between, because all 8 of them were still near our goal where they had just scored when I got the ball from mid. So were the other 7 members of my team. And I was all like, "Hey, I have the ball and this entire side of the field all to myself! :-D Better scamper in case there's an imperial with enough sense to leap into the fire for a quick trip to the rez. Granted, if they had enough sense to do that, they probably wouldn't have left mid undefended." Yes, there are sometimes people who carry the ball from mid all the way to the goal without passing, but they still have healers, a guard, dps trying to kill/cc/distract the people chasing them, and maybe a sage pull to help them, or perhaps a stealther at endzone they can leap to (for guardian ball carriers).

Edited May 23, 2013 by Dawncatcher

[tatatan]

whine is eternal

roll is fine

case closed

move along

[iSleightofHand]

The roll is just op.

[Crashedhardrive]

A Scoundrel/Operative whos spam rolling to the ball with either have 0 energy, or will have to pop cooldowns, which means they wont have it later.

 

Keep that in mind

 

Remind me again, how much energy does it cost to pass the ball?

[falgarr]

No, shut up

[Zunayson]

Roll to ball. Roll to pit/ramps. Pass to assassin/shadow. Stealth. Roll to ball. Roll to pit/ramps. Pass to merc/mando. /stuck. Roll to ball. Roll to pit/ramps. Pass to sorc/sage. Stealth. Roll to ball. Roll to pit/ramps. Pass to assassin/shadow. /stuck. Roll to ball. Roll to pit/ramps. Pass to merc/mando. Stealth. Roll to ball. Roll to pit/ramps. Pass to sorc/sage. Victory.

 

You only need to run normally for a brief second between the first and second, the second and third, and the third and fourth rolls to keep energy regen up high enough to get 3-4 extra rolls out of your energy pool. Pugnacity's alacrity boost will regen even more and, of course, there's cool head.

 

I'm not saying it's broken or needs a hard nerf but in huttball it's practically two free goals at minimum.

 

Alacrity gives an extra .2 max energy per second, which is like 5 energy, maybe 7.5 if pugnacity is 15 secs. SO MUCH FOR SPAMMING RIGHT?

 

Also, note that you've proven that 3 mobile classes can score with nobody trying to DEEPS them down. Last I checked, people were whining about 10k ambushes and smashes. srs lern to deeps

 

Remind me again, how much energy does it cost to pass the ball?

 

Remind me again, how many classes are able to pass the ball?

Edited May 23, 2013 by Zunayson

[Ybini]

The majority of games are normal warzones and it's far from a given that you will have a scoundrel/operative on the team. Is it really a good game mechanic that a game mode requires a specific class and that you should be forced to form a premade with one, incase HB shows up, at all times?

 

It's just discouraging to have the other team grab the ball before you've even manged to get up the ramp. Add to the problem that it's not uncommon that the scoundrel/operative belongs to a premade, who occassionally knows what they are doing and already had an advantage. So one team will score in 20 secs and two guys will drop on the other team. In the confusion of trying to figure out what just happened "the losing" team will probably be spread out now, which allows the "winning" team to quickly score a few more balls. More people drop or start to care even less about the objective.

 

I'd say that scamper/exfiltrate ruins Huttball more than bubble stun ever did to warzones in general. Not that i see scoundrels/operatives use the ability to the same effect on other maps but to prevent the ability in itself from being nerfed, how about putting a ball pick-up debuff after a roll or increasing the cost in HB to reduce the amount of rolls? At this point it doesnt matter that they're running ourt of energy because if they manage to get and pass the ball or roll all the way to a score from mid they've accomplished what they set out to do. It's the equivalent of letting sages/sorcs use force speed four times in a row. Actually, it's worse because with the lag that takes place during a roll it's hard to see where the heck they are going.

 

It's not fun.

 

Its no worse than force speed and leap ever have been.

[Zunayson]

If you can't tell where they're going then you must be blind

 

They have to roll forward, regardless of the way their camera is facing.

 

So unless you cannot remember which way they were facing (in which case you are bad), you really should just look 12 meters in front of you. But if it's 12, then you're bad for not snaring.

 

Now, 6 meters is basically nothing. If you're so near-sighted or too close to your computer that you can't see that out of your not-very-peripheral vision, then you are bad. If they were next to a wall, and you don't see them, they obviously went behind the wall. If you do not realize this, then you are bad.

 

And if they are 6 meters from a wall, then the fact that the roll is a teleport is meaningless - any other decent speed boost would cover 6 meters faster than most humans can react.

 

The only problem I see with the teleport is the fact that they can roll through fire. Which I have to admit, is pretty overpowered. Even I think so.