Fixing Shadow Tank Spikiness

[tXHereticXt]

Kitru,

I did read the entire thread, and as I have stated in this thread I think further nerfing heals is not the right answer.

 

Heals are fine where they are but I do want to see us get out 20% armor buff from the spike/spinning kick trait skill. Our heals shouldn't be touched but the armor values need to be tweaked or an additional buff/debuff should be applied to address the spikeness issue.

[inocelda]

There is way too much complaining about how Shadow tanks are too spikey. While they may be a bit more spikey than the other two, the real problem is that you all just SUCK at playing your Shadow tank. All 3 tanks are well balanced right now.

 

As it has been from the start, Shadows require the most skill to play versus the other classes so idiots will have a tough time playing Shadows.

 

To all the theory-crafters out there who have actually compared the 3 tanks, you will find that Shadows actually require the least amount of healing over time compared to their counterparts. A great Shadow who can take advantage of their phase walk will also amplify the healers in the group. I will say this though...most of the time it is not the Shadow tanks fault and the fault lies on the healers. A Shadow tanks amplifies the healers so they will work extremely well with a boss healer and will suck with a crappy healer.

 

Since the healers should know who the tanks are and the mechanics of the fight, they should know when to keep tanks topped off for when damage spikes will occur. Tanks also should know when to pop their defensive cooldowns. Put those 2 things together and your spikiness complaint goes out the window.

 

The fact of the matter is that Shadows being more spikey is the perfect trade-off for them requiring the least amount of healing over the duration of a fight. BW did everything right with tanks in 2.0 so you all should stop being a bunch of ..... and work on fixing your play style versus complaining that you suck at the class.

[Kitru]

The fact of the matter is that Shadows being more spikey is the perfect trade-off for them requiring the least amount of healing over the duration of a fight. BW did everything right with tanks in 2.0 so you all should stop being a bunch of ..... and work on fixing your play style versus complaining that you suck at the class.

 

Actually, the tradeoff *isn't* perfect.

 

First off, the content has pretty much explicitly been designed such that damage over the long term is well within the realms of maintainable healing for *any* healer. As such, reduced damage taken over the long term really means jack and ****. Mean mitigation is pointless in content where the only time that a tank *ever* stands a chance of dying is during a burst scenario and healers never have to worry about their resources. Mean mitigation *meant* something back pre-2.0 when tanks were killed by a large number of attacks over a comparatively long period of time but, now, tanks die to 3 attacks rapidly chained together so that they die without the healer every getting a heal off on them.

 

Secondly, the equivalent trade off between said mean mitigation and spikiness is *monumentally huge*: Shadows are 30% spikier while only requiring 15% less healing (Shadows actually take 10% *more* damage than either of the other tanks because of the massive amount of self healing we pack). Both of these combine to mean that any source of big damage is going to *completely wreck* a Shadow while, at best, the healer will be required to toss out one heal less out of every 6.67 (since Shadows are spikier, they actually end up requiring more healing because they have to be constantly topped off, which generates large amount of overheal).

 

As to the "you just need to learn to play" aspect of things, the spike damage that actually blows Shadows away occurs more often than a CD is available. Even if you use your CDs *perfectly*, you'll still end up with Thrasher chains and Terminates that you don't have a CD for. At that point, it's not a question of "skill" but is instead a question of "RNG". The skill argument only works when a Shadow actually *has* the tools available to survive. Hell, Terminate can gib you *through* one of our CDs since it's RNG based (Deflection just lowers the chance of the RNG gib; it doesn't do anything to guarantee it's stopped).

 

So, no, we're not just whining for no reason. We have legitimate complaints. You may want to actually "l2read" before you coming in here spouting insults and vitriol without actually *understanding* what we're discussing. Seriously, just like the "we need more self healing!" suggestions, we've dealt with the "you guys are just whining and need to learn to play better!" excuses just as much. Hell, the fact that Shadows require *absolutely* perfect healers in order to not be presented as *monumental* liabilities when the other tanks can actually get away perfectly fine with comparatively mediocre ones is *itself* suggestive of an underlying problem with said spikiness.

 

TL:DR You have *no* clue what you're talking about. Please shut up and stay out of the discussion until you've actually parsed enough of what we've been saying to actually learn something about it.

Edited July 13, 2013 by Kitru

[Grumpftard]

Most of the comments here continually try to associate a DR component with FB or KW.

Could you not just add it to Impact Control as a 2%/4% static increase or change the static healing increase from Shadow's Shelter** to DR%? That would also reduce the amount of self healing that would need adjusting.

Or maybe adjust another talent to link it somehow to Guard? "Using Guard on a player increases the Shadow's DR by X%". Also...linking it to Guard somehow might have some PvP benefits...or hinderances...

 

Then it would just be a matter of adjusting the self-heals (which we already know can be easily done)

 

 

** Before people start blowing up...the 2% inbound healing increase for SS is NOT tied to the puddle...only the 5% outbound.

Edited July 13, 2013 by Grumpftard

[Leafy_Bug]

Lower the CD of BR to 45s, ad a 35% armour increase component to it. Like this when things end bad, I combine it with the rakata absorb adrenal so I end up with 12k armour 60+dmg reduction. Not a bad OH **** cooldown.

[Marb]

Could these issues be solved by a global approach, a combination of changes not limited to shadows specifically? If guardians were brought into line and Bioware changed current content and used new metrics and assumptions for designing future content, do shadows still need some flat buff or new mechanic to make them more viable?

 

I'm concerned they will adjust one boss or adjust one skill and consider it solved, when the issue doesn't really have a single silver bullet, and that we will be having this same discussion at some time in the future.

[tXHereticXt]

I'm concerned they will adjust one boss or adjust one skill and consider it solved, when the issue doesn't really have a single silver bullet, and that we will be having this same discussion at some time in the future.

 

I want to believe the "silver bullet" lies in boosting our armor to a sufficient level so that these "lucky shots" are no longer as impacting. IE give us the 20% armor back from the trait skill(s).

Edited July 14, 2013 by tXHereticXt

[Jaspless]

They should also consider making Force Lightning (with three stacks) also immune to knock backs. I know it's about perfecting your play style, but there are so many bosses now that knock back so frequently they almost always interrupt our healing for Force lightning, which is suppose to be some of our biggest self-sustaining heals.

 

Edit: Also, has there been any word since the initial comment from BioWare?

Edited July 15, 2013 by Jaspless

[helpmewin]

Sometimes i "love" my paper tank when i need to get the adrenaline and to spoil my mood. When this end? Need to remove shadow wrap ability and give something for survive. Edited July 15, 2013 by helpmewin

[tXHereticXt]

They should also consider making Force Lightning (with three stacks) also immune to knock backs. I know it's about perfecting your play style, but there are so many bosses now that knock back so frequently they almost always interrupt our healing for Force lightning, which is suppose to be some of our biggest self-sustaining heals.

 

Not to mention a good threat generator.

[Leafy_Bug]

Not to mention a good threat generator.

 

I don't speak imp but if you are talking about telekinetic throw when harnessed shadows are procc-ed, I'd like to point out that threat from this is more than okay. It is one of our highest threat generating abilities and according to my logs, each critical harnessed generates above 4000 threat. I had a log someplace where I did 6000 threat per tick. Can't find it now

 

 

14:32:45.285 I'risa's Telekinetic Throw critically hits Golden Fury for 2009* kinetic damage, causing 4019 threat!

14:32:46.315 I'risa's Telekinetic Throw heals I'risa for 789, causing 789 threat.

14:32:46.315 I'risa's Telekinetic Throw critically hits Golden Fury for 2009* kinetic damage, causing 4019 threat!

Edited July 16, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[ArchangelLBC]

Lets not lower ourselves with antics like this. I'm not one to claim a dev company favors one class over the other, keep in mind how for months at one point the Shadow/Sin were preferred because a Jugg/Guard just couldn't hold agro without cycling their taunts. While I think we could be waiting for some time, I don't think it's a matter of discrimination and I think people should steer away from falling into those tropes. Be a positive example - be understanding. If this issue were present on Jugg/Guards I'd be just as hard pressed to see it fixed.

 

Honestly at this point I'd prefer to believe that the devs are simply showing favoritism to the classes they play. The only other option is that they are stupid worthless incompetents not worth whatever pittance BW is paying them.

[brainpsyk]

Is fixing the problem as simple as taking the Shadow Technique/Force Technique restriction off Shadowy Veil (Tier 2 Infiltration tree)?

 

It's 2 talent points, each increases armor by 15%

 

I'm just getting into HM ops, so my armor isn't the greatest, but this is a start. 3 sets of numbers, with a armor multiplier of 2.15 for Combat Technique, then 2.3 and 2.45 assuming Shadowy Veil is additive, and 2.4725 and 2.795 assuming Shadowy Veil is multiplicative with Combat Technique:

 

Base armor 2925

*2.15 = 6288.75 Armor => DR: 30.99624176%

*2.30 = 6727.5 =>32.45688096%

*2.45 = 7166.25 =>33.85696569%

*2.4725 = 7232.0625 =>34.06198762%

*2.795 = 8175.375 =>36.86690755%

 

vs Guardian 9070 39.31512787% DR

 

But we've gone from 9% armor difference to 6% or even sub-3%. We're still more spiky, but not to the same extent. This doesn't require any major revamp of skills, and now we have a trade off, Threat (which we have plenty of), or losing the Force Cost reduction from Psychokinesis.

[Leafy_Bug]

Is fixing the problem as simple as taking the Shadow Technique/Force Technique restriction off Shadowy Veil (Tier 2 Infiltration tree)?

 

It's 2 talent points, each increases armor by 15%

 

I'm just getting into HM ops, so my armor isn't the greatest, but this is a start. 3 sets of numbers, with a armor multiplier of 2.15 for Combat Technique, then 2.3 and 2.45 assuming Shadowy Veil is additive, and 2.4725 and 2.795 assuming Shadowy Veil is multiplicative with Combat Technique:

 

Base armor 2925

*2.15 = 6288.75 Armor => DR: 30.99624176%

*2.30 = 6727.5 =>32.45688096%

*2.45 = 7166.25 =>33.85696569%

*2.4725 = 7232.0625 =>34.06198762%

*2.795 = 8175.375 =>36.86690755%

 

vs Guardian 9070 39.31512787% DR

 

But we've gone from 9% armor difference to 6% or even sub-3%. We're still more spiky, but not to the same extent. This doesn't require any major revamp of skills, and now we have a trade off, Threat (which we have plenty of), or losing the Force Cost reduction from Psychokinesis.

 

 

30 % is not enough. There are some numbers in this thread were 35% is the sweetspot for armour and 5% extra damage reduction.

[Kitru]

Is fixing the problem as simple as taking the Shadow Technique/Force Technique restriction off Shadowy Veil (Tier 2 Infiltration tree)?

 

It still doesn't solve the problem of what needs to be *removed* to make up for the commensurate increase to mitigation. However we *get* the 4-5% K/E DR needed (whether it's through gaining 30-35% armor rating or just getting the bonus flat out), we'll still need to lose some other form of our existing mitigation (either self healing or defense chance) to make up for those gains in order to prevent our mean mitigation from getting higher than it should. It's *already* really, really good. Any increase to it is simply going to make it *too* good (you can, honestly, make the argument that it's *already* too good, but reducing it would simply make our spikiness worse).

 

Rather than thinking "buff", think "redistribution". Shadow tank mitigation is fine; it's our mitigation profile that needs to be fixed (which makes a bit of sense when you consider that the devs analyze tank balance *purely* from the lens of mitigation rather than a more holistic sense).

[Ancaglon]

IMO, reducing base Defense chance would do the job along with this -- keep the self-heals as they are -- given that Defense is binary and contributes to spikiness. This approach has already been suggested by various people for dealing with content where a lot of damage just can't be defended, but baking it into the trees would not force us to make such a stark choice as we face now (good mitigation but spikey, vs bad mitigation but smoother percent damage). This would ALSO make us less vulnerable to the big hit killers such as Terminate and Huge Grenade.

 

(Some mechanism to make self-heals scale with incoming damage would reduce the need for constant "re-balancing" of that based on content -- e.g. add some portion of the damage taken in the last 12 seconds to the healing).

Edited July 17, 2013 by Ancaglon

[helpmewin]

Remove shadow's wrap ability (DPS will be almost the same like vanguard tank have) and give us 4-5% DR and enough already to fun with KC tree.

[Ancaglon]

Remove shadow's wrap ability (DPS will be almost the same like vanguard tank have) and give us 4-5% DR and enough already to fun with KC tree.

Translation please?

[helpmewin]

Translation please?

 

Уберите shadow's wrap абилку( ДПС будет примерно такой же как и у Вангарда танка) и дайте 4-5% ДР, и хватит уже издеваться над KC веткой.

OK?

Edited July 17, 2013 by helpmewin

[Kitru]

Remove shadow's wrap ability (DPS will be almost the same like vanguard tank have) and give us 4-5% DR and enough already to fun with KC tree.

 

Reducing our damage/threat would, in no way, be a relevant balancing factor for increasing our mean mitigation. I really have to wonder why you seem to have such a hard on for getting rid of Shadow Wrap. It has *nothing* to do with Shadow tank spikiness atm, and yet you keep coming back to it as if it were the cause of all of our problems. If you want Shadow Wrap done away with, just say that, but it is, in no way, an appropriate exchange for the increased DR.

[helpmewin]

Reducing our damage/threat would, in no way, be a relevant balancing factor for increasing our mean mitigation. I really have to wonder why you seem to have such a hard on for getting rid of Shadow Wrap. It has *nothing* to do with Shadow tank spikiness atm, and yet you keep coming back to it as if it were the cause of all of our problems. If you want Shadow Wrap done away with, just say that, but it is, in no way, an appropriate exchange for the increased DR.

 

In PvE he have some problems with spikiness and in PvP he have VERY BIG problems with survivability. This is just my suggestion. And yours is killing shadows little pluses in PvP deflects and self healing. Now he is node guarder and nothing more. Just running around and say "Hey guys! Enemy is here! Cmon!"

Edited July 17, 2013 by helpmewin

[DarthSpekulatius]

what benefit does shadow selfheal has in pvp?

maybe if it was 16% of our live each TKT

or didn't root us in place and if shadow tanks had the 30% dmg reduction while stunned

 

on the other hand I'm not doing ranked, maybe there you don't get stunned&focused?

Edited July 17, 2013 by DarthSpekulatius

[Grumpftard]

Уберите shadow's wrap абилку( ДПС будет примерно такой же как и у Вангарда танка) и дайте 4-5% ДР, и хватит уже издеваться над KC веткой.

OK?

 

ROFL! Ай Да молодец!

 

I think he's looking at survivability as a function of how long it takes to kill your enemy in PvP, and that he's willing to sacrifice some DPS in exchange for some damage reduction. It also looks like he feels that all the suggested changes to fix spikiness would exacerbate this problem. All of which has absolutely nothing to do with the primary discussion of fixing the problem of us getting raped in Ops.

[Kitru]

All of which has absolutely nothing to do with the primary discussion of fixing the problem of us getting raped in Ops.

 

Not to mention being completely ignorant of the fact that you can't just change something for PvP reasons *alone* when it would actually have a greater impact upon PvE. Threat/damage, as it stands, is perfectly balanced for the tanks, which is to say that it doesn't really matter because it only matters for the first 15 seconds and is then largely redundant thanks to taunt fluffing. Any reduction to it to increase mean mitigation (and, yes, I do understand the balance construct of comparative competitive TTK for balancing different roles) would screw up PvE balance by making that class explicitly better because of the low real value on tank damage/threat compared to mitigation. If TOR were a game where, in both PvE and PvP, the attrition model were applied to tank survivability and the ratio between damage and survivability weren't simply a binary statement of specializing upon one or the other almost exclusively, it would be a reasonable suggestion. Of course, since that's *not* true, the suggestion makes no sense whatsoever, not to mention that, even if it *were* as such, the DPS loss from Shadow Wrap would be *miniscule* compared to the massive increase in mean mitigation that the 4-5% DR would provide.

 

Of course, we're talking about a guy that admits that Shadows can't ever get decent reliable heals in PvP and thinks that reducing said heals that are already mostly pointless in PvP to add to static mitigation which *is* useful in PvP would be a nerf to the spec as a whole, so I don't really expect much critical or multi-level thinking out of him.

[Kitru]

You guys pulled a knee-slapper on me as well when I raged on the PTS forums after 2.0 came out. Y'all said it was a matter of L2P and gear. Ironic how we are actually begging the devs to fix our class now because some of us knew back then, even when the first nerfs arrived, that we are gonna suffer.

 

You were complaining about mean mitigation and alpha strike mitigation, not RNG spike doom in Ops content. For alpha strikes, you should be using CDs properly, and our mean mitigation actually *did* get better. Just because you complained about something concerning Shadow tank survivability on the PTS doesn't mean you were complaining about the *right* thing. For the things you *were* complaining about, it was entirely appropriate to say l2p and gear.