Oh thank God for you, Morngwath. I was beginning to lose hope and think that everyone here was completely ignorant... Hopefully you can pick up the slack here, Morngwath, and deal with these people because I'm dropping out of this thread. Some people just can't/won't be helped.

I won't go too much into spreadsheet style formulas but the basics of it are that more alacrity equals more casts and energy. To put it into perspective, let's say that some scoundrel healer with 0 alacrity does 400 casts in a Warzone match. Another scoundrel healer doing the same thing with 450 alacrity would be able to get about 425 casts. As for the extra energy regen..not only would you have enough energy to be able to pay for the extra 25 casts but you would have even more energy over the 25 casts, which means that you will be able to do more Kolto Packs and less Emergency Medpacs or more Underworld Medicine and less Diagnostic Scans, however you want to make the comparison. Those are the basics of it but another thing to consider is that 429 alacrity (or around there depending on server lag, which is why I suggest 450 to be safe) is the minimum threshold that you would need if you cast all instant heals to be able to gain an extra heal in your rotation before having to refresh a SRM. If you have 429ish alacrity, you'll be able to get 12 casts in before refreshing that first SRM. Anything less than that would mean you could only get 11 casts in before refreshing a SRM.

ArchangelLBC, Sorry I didn't explain myself easy enough for you to understand and I know it's a lot to read for you but my point was to try and explain that shadow tanks can be favored over others in some fights. I never said anywhere in my post that you or Kitru claimed that EC Kephess NiM was bad for shadows. To the contrary, I was simply stating that shadow tanks do quite well in that fight and at the time it was the hardest content of the game. Now, with the new hardest content of the game being TFB NiM and S&V NiM, I was trying to show you that shadow tanks are favored again in this new content. I just provided a few examples off the top of my head where shadow tanks are favored. You don't need to be so condescending and say that I didn't read or can't understand your posts when I did. It is you that misunderstood or didn't read my post. I know you probably don't have a lot of time to watch all the videos but if you did, you'd notice that the shadow tank in there did just as well, if not better, than any other NiM content clears that you will find out there, proving 2 things --- 1. Shadow tanks ARE plenty capable of being just as competitive with the other tanks in the current content of the game, if not better. 2. Sephir (shadow tank in those videos) is just really good at playing his class? or other shadows are not so good? maybe also that shadows require a bit more skill to play than the other tank classes. I actually know a bit about shadow tanks so I'm willing to help you with your rotation to maximize self-heals or perhaps setting up defensive stats and gearing ratios if you care to know any of that. If not, I wish you the best of luck. I'm always be willing to help you maximize your potential to clear the current NiM content too if you need it so just let me know.

You must mean HM but that that doesn't apply to NiM based on my experience in there as a healer. I recall healing multiple different groups in there on DG NiM (pre-nerfs) and there was definitely a noticeable difference when we swapped players and got different tanks in there. You are wrong about tanking and healing not being connected because when the tanks take less damage overall, it allows the healers to heal the group more. The first time, we had a guardian in there who took more damage than our usual vanguard tank, who was unavailable. I'm a pretty good healer so when the guardian was there, it's not like I couldn't keep up in healing the tanks and the rest of the group. However, it did mean that I had to focus more on healing that guardian which in turn prevented me from doing more dps. If you're going to say healers shouldn't dps, well, most of the time healers needed to dps in DG NiM (pre-nerfs) because it was such a dps check for that enrage. When we switched in the vanguard tank, he required less healing and my dps suddenly went up, to no surprise. Why am I talking about guardian and vanguard tanks in the shadow tank thread? I'm telling you that your argument that mean mitigation means nothing in current content is wrong. Besides the guardian and vanguard swapping, the other tank consistently stayed a shadow tank. The phase walk healing alone is enough for me to want a shadow tank over any other for the second tank. I finally got through the multiple posts of walls of text in this thread and after reading everything, I think that msfyoung, THoK-Zeus, and fire-breath actually know what they are talking about and ArchangelLBC and Kitru don't. I really disagree with the whole argument that shadows need to be kept above 85% or get instant killed from spike damage. One thing that I don't think you're calculating into all of this is the group composition. Scoundrel healers work very well with Shadow tanks because of the HoTs. It was posted that healers have to do a ton of overhealing with shadow tanks that just doesn't happen with others. Any decent scoundrel healer should have tons of HoTs on the tanks anyways if there is a reasonable amount of expected spike damage that will hit the tanks. If the shadow tank has the Slow-release, kolto cloud, and kolto pack constantly on them, like any decent scoundrel healer should, that is a lot of HoTs, so even if there is a huge spike of damage from non-shielded/defended attacks, the HoTs will bring them up quick enough to where it doesn't matter. You might be able to make that argument with commando or sage healers but you should really consider group composition for your arguments because scoundrel healers work very well with shadow tanks. The only real argument that has been made against shadow tanks is that stupid terminate argument from ONE fight...So what if RNG sucks and happens to kill you on that fight. That's why you get a combat rez. The time we did that fight on NiM, our guardian tank died (no fault of his lol I messed up the healing) and the shadow tank lived. I know you're going to say that you shouldn't be counting on Deflection for the stupid terminate attack blah blah but it is a great defensive CD for that attack and as you can from this , it worked out quite nicely. The shadow tank's HP didn't really suffer in that video either. If you want to talk about EC Kephess NiM being too hard for shadows, our shadow tank did just fine in that too. Both tanks have to take a lot of damage at at the end phase, while tanks are swapping for the purple circles, as I'm sure you know. TFB Kephess NiM? Again... . The shadow tank's HP stays perfectly fine in all of those videos. LOL take your pick because we have an entire list of TFB NiM and S&V NiM VIDEOS to prove that shadow tanks do very well in the current content. I personally would much rather heal a shadow/guardian composition than a vanguard/guardian composition now, simply because of the phase walk, which I think a lot of people overlook when talking about the "weaknesses" of shadow tanks. Yes, they take more damage, but they also get a huge boost of healing received, 2% constant from Shadow's Shelter and another 5% when phase walk is up. Oh, you don't want to count the 5%? Well, it wouldn't be there without a shadow tank. One of my favorite fights for the phase walk is the DG NiM, which helps healing a bit - , which allows healers to dps more like I said. So, no....I disagree with your statement of the following. I much prefer to heal the shadow tank as a scoundrel but that may be another story for sages and commandos...I don't know. HoTs work great with shadow tanks. If you watch any of those videos, I don't see any point where the shadow tank was a liability based on watching all the health bars and I would actually say that the shadow tank is a great asset. Another point I completely disagree with is how people seem to think that their tank should be optimal for every fight in the game. If that were the case, why bother with that 3rd tank if the other 2 tanks are optimal? and no, that is not the case with the shadow. EVERY class in the game has strengths and weaknesses and some work better for particular fights over others. The shadow tank is NOT going to be the optimal tank for every fight. Some fights will favor guardians, some vanguards, and some shadows. BW did a great job of designing the game that way, especially with the recent balance of version 2.0. I'm sick of hearing all the whiners complain that their AC isn't optimal for every situation in the game. You get it all the time from the PvP crowd and it's even worse when it comes from the PvE crowd. If my spreadsheets didn't quite sway your opinion, perhaps all of those videos might. It obviously sounds like the people complaining about shadows being weak could use some help so I'm not trying to insult you by saying this but perhaps you should get some pointers from the shadow tank in those videos (Sephir from Jedi Covenant) because he seems to be doing things right.

Yeah, **** the math..I really hate math and that's why I made my spreadsheets...or maybe I just wanted to help people. Not only does the math support my claim but you can check my parses on torparse.com if you really need evidence lol I don't need to prove anything to you and there is plenty of evidence out there. I raid with Ascension and we've done TFB NiM with shadow tanks. We're also up to Sytrak in S&V NiM. I don't really care about world rankings that much but I'm sure there is a spreadsheet with screenshots somewhere for those people that want to look at that stuff supporting my claim that we've done it in my guild, Ascension. lol chill man

haha "Healing is more than spamming green numbers!" I spam them like the plague. One thing I will say is that 55 HM FPs run a lot smoother if you don't take a tank with you. The best way to do it is to have a dps that can queue as a tank. It makes healing a lot easier or at the very least equivalent, contrary to popular belief. The reason is that normally in FPs, the tank taunts everything and so all the damage is on one player. All healers have AOE heals so it would make more sense to have that damage spread out among all 4 players to be most effective. If all the dps are attacking different targets, it makes your work a little easier. It also allows for more defensive cooldowns to be used because more players are taking damage. Another things I didn't mention because it seemed obvious...but with 3 dps and a healer, things die a lot faster than with 2 dps and a tank. It's easier for any healer to burst heal for a short duration but some find it hard to sustain their heals over longer durations. Especially since healers start off with a 100 energy pool or Sages with 600/650, you can burst heal until your energy is depleted if needed. I tried it a while ago, without a tank, and have never gone back to running the 55 HM FPs with a tank ever again because I liked it so much.

Our Shadow tanks clear the NiM content just fine Honestly, I would rather heal a good Shadow tank than a good Guardian tank I'd offer advice on how to step up your game but nobody will listen anyways so I avoid these forums now.

Check torparse.com. This should probably be a thread you put in the Scoundrel section, not Smuggler.

Your understanding of alacrity is wrong or maybe you just did a poor job of explaining it here...alacrity doesn't speed up the tick rate of your HoTs at all. Your SRM will always last 18s and your KC is always 9s...What alacrity does affect is your GCD. So, with more alacrity, it means you can cast more SRMs on people, refresh them faster, and be able to cast more of other things since you're spending less time refreshing your SRMs on people. Alacrity also affects your energy regen rate. I'm going to try to keep the schooling here to a minimum so if you want to know more, you should just check my spreadsheet. If your lacking a bit in the math department and you can't understand it, that's fine...I'll do my best to explain it to you if you actually ask for help. However, if anyone wants to disagree simply because they are ignorant and have no scientific backing, I will not tolerate it and they will be ignored. I genuinely want to help people and that is why I made all of these spreadsheets...even though I only play 1 AC and have no personal need of the other spreadsheets.

Yes, I learned how to read in elementary school too Clearly, you didn't read my post because I was talking about PvP. Changes will affect BOTH PvE and PvP no matter what you do...there is no way to only change one with your proposals. If your math was a little better, you would be able to see that my spreadsheets are for both PvE and PvP. I don't include expertise but that's about it really. Also, max theoretical output IS directly related to actual output so your logic is pretty flawed there. Obviously, with how dynamic PvP is, situations are never the same. That doesn't change the fact that you will get higher hps with a little crit instead of stacking all power. I would try to explain the math to you but it sounds like I'd be wasting my time...

Valsy, your judgement of me and my spreadsheet is wrong. My Sawbones spreadsheet is universal and my comments in this thread are focused for pvp, following the title of the thread..so it is not based only on pve as you assumed. Stacking all power and surge is a bad idea...first off, it's illogical because high Surge only works well with higher crit so if you're stacking all power then your Surge isn't as effective. Surge also drops pretty fast on the DR graph. Alacrity is essential not only because it helps you cast faster but it also gives you more energy to play with, thus more big energy casts and less diagnostic scans. Obviously the BiS values in my spreadsheet are based on the PvE gear but you can apply the same concept to PvP. To make it easier, I'll just say the number of pieces that you should have for each... BiS stats will be 6 or 7 (whatever gets you above 450) Alacrity pieces and the rest in Surge. Gren-Aluren....what are you talking about that the crit/power ratio has "been proven" and where? It would be really hard to prove that just by looking at a few PvP matches because PvP is so dynamic that your circumstances always change...it's impossible to get the exact same match so you can never scientifically prove anything without equal environments to compare. This is why I made the spreadsheets that so many people here just don't seem to understand....I know math hurts some people's heads...Anyways, that is besides the fact that you are wrong about your analysis of crit vs power. There IS a definitive answer to what the BiS stats are...that's why they're called BiS. If you could just have whatever you wanted and get the same results then we wouldn't be having discussions about BiS stats. I'm not going to get on the soap-box for too long but maybe you should listen to me seeing as nobody can manage to top my healing numbers or perhaps you don't look at those sort of things and make your assumptions by flipping a coin...so maybe I know what I'm talking about since I just so happen to have the highest scoundrel healing in the game. I don't care to argue about who's got the biggest lightsaber because you were playing for "objectives" and whatever other excuses for low healing I hear among Scoundrels. The fact of the matter is that until you beat my healing, you must assume that the BiS values that I state are correct.

Sorry but you are completely wrong about Sawbones... Yes, their energy management is a lot easier than it was in 1.7 but the same could be said for Sages and Commandos..do you even play other classes or have a good understanding of them? You may want to check out a spreadsheet or two. Scoundrels have always been the "mobile healer" and I don't think anything needs to be done about that. The other classes have a few mobile healing abilities as well so it's not like they are completely screwed in that department. Where the other 2 healing classes make up for it is their defensive cooldowns, which completely blows Defense Screen and Dodge out of the water. It's not overpowered but it has become a lot easier for a sub-par healer to be a better healer with Sawbones. Great Sages and Commandos will still be able to achieve similar results as a great Scoundrel though. However, bad Scoundrel healer > bad Sage healer or bad Scoundrel healer > bad Commando healer. The problem with all of your suggested changes is that where you want to bring "balance" to healing for PvP, you will create a much larger imbalance in PvE. A great Sage or Commando will still outheal a good Scoundrel. They are all well balanced right now. Instead of posting your "perceived problems" with the healing balance, how about posting some real numbers, mathematical backing, tactical explanations, or actual scientific evidence for your theories? It's great that you "think" that there is some imbalance but without evidence, other than what you personally see, it means nothing. I'm not saying this because I personally play a Scoundrel and have done so since the beginning of the game (I'm not just a flavor of the month person) but because I do quite a bit of theory crafting and I KNOW that classes are well balanced right now.

BiS stats are going to be getting all the high power and crit mods/enhancements/implants/earpiece versus the higher cunning. Of course, you also want the high cunning armorings/barrels versus the high endurance ones. Alacrity vs Surge: Aim for a minimum of 450 alacrity and put the rest into Surge Power vs Crit: Aim for around 285 crit rating without going over... (I have a spreadsheet that you can download and play with your own numbers if you want) As for healing amount in warzones...yes, it does depend a lot on the situation. While big numbers are important for a healer, it is mainly about objectives. It's funny that you say your top heal is 1.76mil because that is EXACTLY what my record was before 2.0 haha..I think back in 1.7 - Screenshot. I haven't really had the time to pvp that much since 2.0 because RL but I think I've hit a 3mil match. The only time you hit those really high numbers is when everyone floods the middle and you are just fighting back and forth. As for that other guys comment above about "dot heals being fluff"...HoTs are NOT fluff. They work as preventative damage, similar to the sage's bubble and your heals are only counted in warzones for "effective heals"...it doesn't count any over healing or I would have had plenty of 6k hps matches. If you have a lot of heals in a match, it means that they were required. Low healing doesn't make you bad though and it usually just means that the other team didn't put out enough dps so there was nothing to heal for you. It could also be that you had too many healers on your team so they healed everyone up and there was nothing left over for you to heal. As long as you win the match, that is all that matters. If you are trying to compare to other healers to see who is the best, it can be hard to judge...but usually, people in the game know who the good healers and who the bad ones and make their judgements from seeing them a few times in warzones. If you don't pvp that often, it's hard to get noticed. If you're on a ranked warzone team with a lot of excellent players, they might be carrying you so like I said, it's hard to judge. Winning is all that matters

Yes, Hemorrhaging Blast is a legitimate concern that should and will be addressed but like I said in the Scrapper thread, that second suggestion of yours is not even going to get (or at least shouldn't get) a second glance by BW. You are complaining about THE DoT spec not being good at switching targets? ...the same could be said of both specs for Balance, both specs for DF, both specs for Assault, Vigilance, Watchman...burn specs are meant to do more damage to a target that doesn't die for a long time. This just means that you don't understand how class balance is supposed to work...I'm not attacking you with this statement but rather pointing out that this is just not how it works so I hope you don't take offense to my post. DoT specs are good at hitting targets over a long duration and don't do as well when switching targets constantly. Burst specs are better at switching targets frequently but tend to not do as well as their DoT counterparts during the longer duration single target fights. Ironically....every AC has 3 specs so you can switch specs each fight to suit the needs of the team and optimize the fight. Again, I'm not trying to rain on your parade but it sounds like you need to learn a little bit more about ALL ACs and specs before commenting on class balance. I appreciate your post to spark conversation so keep up the great work! This is exactly what the community needs to start organizing concerns now.

I'm not trying to dump on your thread because it is very well done and I understand the concerns...but shouldn't we filter out the completely bad off the wall ideas? "Positional DPS PvE" You want to use "Back" Blast from the front? ...Seriously? BW is not going to even look at this one and I'll tell you why. I actually understand BW a bit more than others or at least I can actually understand how class balance works rather than most people who simply rant "the only class/spec I play doesn't do EVERYTHING like the other classes. I hate diversity and I want every class to be the same"...it sounds really boring to me. If people didn't know, each AC has 3 specs. 1 spec is NOT going to "optimal" for EVERY boss fight, encounter, or pvp match. Yes, each spec is perfectly capable in every situation but some specs are just better in particular instances over others. The "using back blast from front' could also be said about the Shadow Infiltration spec. Infiltration is NOT the mirror spec of Scrapper but they are pretty close. They both have their strengths and weaknesses but I will not say they are equal. I will agree that Scoundrels are seriously lacking on defensive cooldowns compared to other similar classes are definitely at the bottom, if not the worst in that department. "Lack of an execute" ? Here is another bad suggestion. Not every class needs to have an execute....The classes were made differently for a reason. Here you go with trying to make Scrapper have everything that other classes have and that's just not how it works.... If you really want an execute and think it would better benefit you in a particular fight, then switch specs to Dirty Fighting. Stop trying to make Scoundrels a mirror class of Shadows in that regard... "Streaky damage output" ? RNG sucks sometimes...deal with it. It can play to your advantage sometimes as well but nobody complains when it benefits them... "Lack of AoE Damage reduction talent" ...again, not all classes are the same for a reason so stop trying to make everyone the same. Scrapper isn't meant to be fighting in the fray. They pull people out and gank them before anyone notices. "Hard to drop combat and re-stealth when facing multiple targets." Um...cleanse, stealth, and roll fast as hell ftw. The main problem I see here is that people want Scrapper to be the god spec that has everything that other classes have plus more...you people are fooling yourself if you think that is going to help "fix" anything. Everyone has a legitimate point that survivability for the Scoundrel in general (not just Scrapper) in both pvp and pve are lacking compared to others but the rest of this doesn't look good. I'm not trying to rant or piss people off. I'm not calling anyone stupid either. I'm just saying that some of these concerns should be thought out more from class balance as a whole and not just what you want to make Scrapper more awesome.