Why did Jeff Hickman lie to subscribers about the future of the game?

[CosmicKat]

Wrong. If you really want to be accurate about what was said then the quoted text does not state that subscribers will get future game features for free it states we will get future game updates for free and we got 2.1 for free.

 

Note the significant difference between these:

 

"unlimited access to all game features and future Game Updates at no additional charge."

 

"unlimited access to all future game features and Game Updates at no additional charge."

 

And do you not see the problem with this?

 

The vague wording is intentional. it is designed specifically to infer A, but mean B.

 

The words "access" and "content" were used to infer continued free access to all content, while meaning the opposite.

The selective and deliberate placement of "future" was used to infer all future access to free content would continue, while meaning the opposite.

 

It's not lying. It is misleading, disingenuous, disinformation written by lawyers. There was no "poor choice of wording" involved. They used the exact words they intended to use.

[Vego_Mohenjo]

Hey folks,

 

I will just be as honest as I can here, it was a poor choice in wording on our part. I know that players have made decisions around whether to remain a subscriber based on those words which makes it all that much more sensitive. I apologize if you feel that you were misled by what we said in that blog. Since this blog I feel we have been more consistent in our messaging that you can expect things like cosmetic and convenience features (like Appearance Designer) are the types of things we usually place on the Cartel Market.

 

It has always been our plan that as new content is released,(such as Flashpoints, Operations, in-game events, daily hubs, etc.) that subscribers will get access to these pieces of content. This is unlike a free-2-play player who will need to purchase access to that content. This is why we stated subscribers gained "unlimited" access to that content, because you get that as a part of your subscription.

 

For Cartel Market items, you have access to purchase all of them, as do F2P players. What sets you folks apart is your monthly stipend which will allow you to purchase those features at no additional cost should you choose. I realize with your stipend, and with all the features we have, you may not be able to get it all at once but you can get it in time as a subscriber.

 

With that being said we have definitely heard your frustrations around Game Updates and the value you feel as a subscriber. I don't have details today but we are continuing to look at options moving forward to make sure that you don't feel that way.

 

-eric

 

I appreciate your candor. However, I don't honestly think you misspoke. From my viewpoint, subscribers (and I am one) get a stipend of cartel points every month. As such, we can afford to purchase cartel items at no additional cost (beyond the subscription cost). I mean, I know I have. I pay only for my subscription, and I've already purchased things from the cartel market at no cost in dollars to me.

[chuixupu]

 

As I stated this race was supposed to have been free to subscribers up to the moments the patch was being applied a few days ago as the Launcher stated that subscribers would get 1 free Cather, 1 free appearance change, and 1 free guild name change. It is unknown as to why that changed in the intervening hours when the patch was applied.

 

It never said anyone would get 1 free Cathar. It said a free guild, character, and legacy name change, the legacy and guild part was corrected shortly after. It never said anything about Cathar. I quoted and copy and pasted this line several times while giving news out to my guild.

 

And they were not supposed to be free "up to the moments the patch was applied". Damion Schubert said they were going to be a cartel market exclusive going way back to last fall, and it was repeated a few times between various interviews and Q&A sessions. So please, I understand the frustration but please at least get your facts straight.

 

So much for clearing up incorrect information.

Edited May 20, 2013 by chuixupu

[jamesvasquez]

Many of us were pointing this out since it started and warning you all that it was the new normal. Warning you not to ever expect anything else for your sub price.

 

But we were all called haters and chicken littles.

 

It's not "lies". It's a corporation re-defining their contract as they see fit. Because they can, and because people just sit there and take it, sometimes even thanking that corporation for freeing them of their money.

 

The contract they had us all agree to clearly states that they can change whatever they want, whenever they want, and that anything an employee of Bioware or of EA in general says, can not be taken as a promise from the company. Read the Terms of Service and the EULA. It's all there. Is it necessarily fair? Of course not. It isn't designed to be. I don't like it, either. But no one lied to us about anything.

[Lost-goddess]

Dont know why theres such as uproar over them telling a fib, stretching the truth or conning some money, After all they havent fixed any of the major buggs since day 1 of beta....Its a money scam but we play cause we like it, so what you expect? As far as patches being free thats comical. lets see a game survive that makes you pay for their maintencence to fix issues with their program. This game has never been a game worth any subscription, its a sad attempt but so improvement is possible. The question is how much money You got?.....

[LordArtemis]

It's common to think you are a special snowflake, but TOR players are no different from any other MMO players, especially given that in many cases, TOR players are also other MMO players. TOR is not going to experience a mass exodus of paying players just because of a few fulminating forums malcontents.

 

A special snowflake?

 

Your just wrong IMO branmakmuffin. History of this game stands in evidence. I am also pretty confident you can not now, nor have ever had the ability to predict the future.

 

However one can look at the past.

 

Is it likely the game will lose droves of players because of a few "fulminating forums malcontents"? Probably not.

 

Your posts tend to generalize in this nature....you should probably collect your arguments into coherent concise points of contention before posting them as counters....at least if you want to continue the discussion and have folks understand your viewpoint.

[SMFletcher]

It never said anyone would get 1 free Cathar. It said a free guild, character, and legacy name change, the legacy and guild part was corrected shortly after. It never said anything about Cathar. I quoted and copy and pasted this line several times while giving news out to my guild.

 

And they were not supposed to be free "up to the moments the patch was applied". Damion Schubert said they were going to be a cartel market exclusive going way back to last fall, and it was repeated a few times between various interviews and Q&A sessions. So please, I understand the frustration but please at least get your facts straight.

 

So much for clearing up incorrect information.

 

We also have several copies of posts as well as a video made by Bio Ware in the early release of information including the Cathar Race being free as well. I will attempt to sort though my links and post for you. So I am extremely sorry for disagreeing with you but we were actually just talking about those same informational type of posts to which you are referring.

 

Cather were originally slotted for one of the first major updates and at that time there was no Cartel Market even announced as yet nor was free to play an option.

 

Originally the Cathar was slotted as part of a Game Update completely unassociated with Free to Play or the Cartel Market. My information is correct and factual.

[chuixupu]

We also have several copies of posts as well as a video made by Bio Ware in the early release of information including the Cathar Race being free as well.

 

Yes, prior to the game transitioning to Free to Play. I'd happily sort through all the links and quotes, if you like, I have a lot of time on my hands and do it frequently. Here's a couple

 

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1232202-Q-A-Livestream-Game-Update-schedule-Cathar-SSSP-Makeb-flavor-features-CCM

http://swtor.gamingfeeds.com/2012/11/16/dulfy-interviews-swtor%E2%80%99s-damion-schubert/

 

Originally the Cathar was slotted as part of a Game Update completely unassociated with Free to Play or the Cartel Market. My information is correct and factual.

 

That statement is correct. But that's not what you said in your last post. You said "up until the release of this patch".

As soon as the transition to Free to play happened, Cathar became a cartel market exclusive. Point being, people shouldn't just now be flipping out over this. It's been out in the open for many months.

 

And getting Cathar for credits is just as easy as if they were in the legacy panel. They're not expensive at all on the GTN. 500k currently, give it a couple of weeks and they'll probably be down to 200-300k like other species unlocks.

[Mjollnir]

I think Cartman can best detail how a lot of subscribers feel

[Vassise]

Wrong. If you really want to be accurate about what was said then the quoted text does not state that subscribers will get future game features for free it states we will get future game updates for free and we got 2.1 for free.

 

Note the significant difference between these:

 

"unlimited access to all game features and future Game Updates at no additional charge."

 

"unlimited access to all future game features and Game Updates at no additional charge."

 

All game features = game features now and future game features.

[WillCaedes]

I think Cartman can best detail how a lot of subscribers feel

 

LMAO I'd forgotten all about that. South Park how I miss thee.

[tman_ac]

All game features = game features now and future game features.

 

Exactly. Else they could have written: All current game features or just leave the features out in that sentence if they only wanted to give us all future game content.

[TripleMe]

No you don't. You got 2.0 for free, what you have to pay for is RotHC which is classed as an expansion and not an update and was released with 2.0.

 

So does an expansion not update the game ? How can I distinguish between an expansion and an update ? Do expansions and updates have any features in common, or are they completely separate things ?

[Nagadeath]

So does an expansion not update the game ? How can I distinguish between an expansion and an update ? Do expansions and updates have any features in common, or are they completely separate things ?

 

it seems to be just whatever they want to charge extra money for they call a expansion. it doesn't even have anything to do with the levels as some people like to claim. case in point FFXI had 4 expansions without raising the level cap. then turned around and raised the cap from 75 to 99 without a expansion. it's just whatever the devs think they can get away with charging for.

[Kilora]

So does an expansion not update the game ? How can I distinguish between an expansion and an update ? Do expansions and updates have any features in common, or are they completely separate things ?

 

More often than not -- a level cap change and new end-game content is an expansion. You MUST purchase the expansion to get what is included.

 

An update is given to everyone free of charge. Everyone that ever plays this game will have updates for free. (1.6, 1.7, 2.0, 2.1, etc.)

[JerForceOne]

6 months ago I told my mom I was planning on going to school to get an MBA. Now I changed my mind and don't think its worth the money. Does that make me a liar?

Bad analogy. Try this one - You buy a brand new Toyota and get the extended warranty because they tell you it will cover all your oil changes up to 25,000 miles. Then at 5,000 miles you take it in for your first free oil change and they tell you that they changed their mind and they won't cover them any more. That's a better analogy for what BW is doing.

[Andryah]

Bad analogy. Try this one - You buy a brand new Toyota and get the extended warranty because they tell you it will cover all your oil changes up to 25,000 miles. Then at 5,000 miles you take it in for your first free oil change and they tell you that they changed their mind and they won't cover them any more. That's a better analogy for what BW is doing.

 

Comparing a capital expenditure for a tangible item like a car is also an extremely bad analogy when comparing it to a service (that's what your subscription provides.. a service) for a trivial monthly purchase. Especially when the Car comes with an actual contract that stipulates what you said.. whereas the actual contract you agree to for this game says specifically that any and all content is at the descretion of the game provider.

[DarthTHC]

Bad analogy. Try this one - You buy a brand new Toyota and get the extended warranty because they tell you it will cover all your oil changes up to 25,000 miles. Then at 5,000 miles you take it in for your first free oil change and they tell you that they changed their mind and they won't cover them any more. That's a better analogy for what BW is doing.

 

Try this one.

 

You sign up with a TV provider. Doesn't matter which one - satellite, cable, whatever. And you take their middle of the road package - 200 channels instead of 150 or 250 - because that's the lowest one that has the handful of channels you are interested in watching.

 

Then a few months down the road, the provider switches around the packages and channels such that one or more of the ones you care about aren't in your package any more. Some are simply no longer available with that provider, some are moved into the more expensive package.

 

Never happens though, right?

[JerForceOne]

Try this one.

 

You sign up with a TV provider. Doesn't matter which one - satellite, cable, whatever. And you take their middle of the road package - 200 channels instead of 150 or 250 - because that's the lowest one that has the handful of channels you are interested in watching.

 

Then a few months down the road, the provider switches around the packages and channels such that one or more of the ones you care about aren't in your package any more. Some are simply no longer available with that provider, some are moved into the more expensive package.

 

Never happens though, right?

 

I guess it depends on whether or not your cable provider promised you'd always have certain channels and then decided to take them back. If that's not the case, then your analogy isn't very good either.

[CosmicKat]

Try this one.

 

You sign up with a TV provider. Doesn't matter which one - satellite, cable, whatever. And you take their middle of the road package - 200 channels instead of 150 or 250 - because that's the lowest one that has the handful of channels you are interested in watching.

 

Then a few months down the road, the provider switches around the packages and channels such that one or more of the ones you care about aren't in your package any more. Some are simply no longer available with that provider, some are moved into the more expensive package.

 

Never happens though, right?

 

The one I've used before...

 

When HBO changes their plan so that your subscription only covers shows made prior to the change, with any new ones becoming pay-per-view, without changing the cost of the subscription... that is the equivalent to what was done with a TOR subscription.

[JerForceOne]

Comparing a capital expenditure for a tangible item like a car is also an extremely bad analogy when comparing it to a service (that's what your subscription provides.. a service) for a trivial monthly purchase. Especially when the Car comes with an actual contract that stipulates what you said.. whereas the actual contract you agree to for this game says specifically that any and all content is at the descretion of the game provider.

 

No, not when it comes down to a statement that was made about what you would get and then the group making that statement changes their mind and decides not to offer it. That makes my analogy very good and easy to understand.

[TripleMe]

More often than not -- a level cap change and new end-game content is an expansion. You MUST purchase the expansion to get what is included.

 

An update is given to everyone free of charge. Everyone that ever plays this game will have updates for free. (1.6, 1.7, 2.0, 2.1, etc.)

 

This does not answer the questions I had posed.

 

Q1> So does an expansion not update the game ?

 

Not answered.

 

Q2> How can I distinguish between an expansion and an update ?

 

Your test is - Anything I have to pay for is an expansion, anything which is free is an update. Kind of circular, don't you think ?

 

Q3> Do expansions and updates have any features in common, or are they completely separate things ?

 

Not answered.

[Kilora]

I guess it depends on whether or not your cable provider promised you'd always have certain channels and then decided to take them back. If that's not the case, then your analogy isn't very good either.

 

The real reason all of these analogies are failed?

 

The only items that have been "taken away" from us are VANITY/COSMETIC.

 

So, not equivalent to a cable channel. Not equivalent to an oil changed.

 

 

More -- you bring your car in for a paint job. They say, "Come back around christmas and you can get another one free!" You show back up, and can only get the original 20 colors -- but not the new 10 they've added.

 

You can get the new 10 at a discount, but not free.

[Kilora]

This does not answer the questions I had posed.

 

Q1> So does an expansion not update the game ?

Not answered.

 

Q2> How can I distinguish between an expansion and an update ?

Your test is - Anything I have to pay for is an expansion, anything which is free is an update. Kind of circular, don't you think ?

 

Q3> Do expansions and updates have any features in common, or are they completely separate things ?

Not answered.

 

Guess what? I was explaining to you, assuming you were being sincere and not using sarcasm to ***** about something. Sorry.

 

Q1> Yes, its an update you have to pay for. I answered that. Sorry you can't comprehend basic english.

Q2> Funny, I explained that expansions GENERALLY have a level cap raise, and new end-game content. Sorry, you didn't read that either, did you?

Q3> See Q2.

[DarthTHC]

I guess it depends on whether or not your cable provider promised you'd always have certain channels and then decided to take them back. If that's not the case, then your analogy isn't very good either.

 

Nope, they actually have the same "we reserve the right to change the terms of service at our whim" clause that SWTOR always has had.

 

Hmm....

Edited May 20, 2013 by DarthTHC