The great forum divide

[FormerOrpheus]

So today I was thinking about the nature of this forum and how in my opinion there is a great divide in that their is are people who support the game and people who do not support the game. Now, what interests me is how the forum goers classify each other.

 

See for example it seems to me that any person who makes a positive remark, opinion, anything really are named several things. These include fanboy, Bioware employee, apologist, defender and most recently loyalist. Now on the other side when someone says something negative they are regarded as a troll, hater even if it is legit concerns. Now I am sure your wondering where I am going with this. Well I will try to explain. See one would think a forum of a game or anything really would have discussions about many things with different view points. But here it seems that any discussion no matter if it is a concern a praise or a suggestion or complaint it always devolves into the usual "i'm right and your wrong"

 

In the end I probably made no sense but I guess I just wish this place wasn't so hostile from both sides.

 

Any thoughts or flames are welcome.

 

Unfortunately this is the result when large groups of people gather to discuss anything. It is not a unique phenomenon in this game. Remember the 2012 election? Stupidity and obstinate childish tantrums no matter where you looked.

[Malastare]

And it's not like it's the first time we explain this... The fact we criticize because we care !

 

And it won't be the first time I explain this: Criticism, in itself, is not helpful.

 

Telling the developers they suck does not inspire them to work harder. Telling them that their decisions are stupid does not encourage them to see things your way. Telling them that they should do something in a particular way because that's the way you want it is not particularly helpful or convincing.

 

I've been working as a developer for various companies for a dozen years now. The most important lesson I've learned --and one that I've passed down to the dozen or so other developers I've mentored in that time-- is that the overlap between what I want to do and what the business-side allows me to do is depressingly small. The second most important thing I've learned is that very, very few of my customers will ever acknowledge this.

 

If you actually cared, and you actually wanted to improve the game, you'd show the developers what you like by praising the things they do well first, and then showing --with numbers, examples and so forth-- them how the things you don't like could be improved while acknowledging the fact that the developers are driven by a corporation that insists on making quarterly profit. Insults or empty criticism do nothing to help. They are actually very bad for community interaction, as it teaches developers that the community has no concern at all for the realities of their task.

[MillionsKNives]

snip

 

I'm sure some psychologist could provide some dry description of why this happens. The need for opposition or challenge, perhaps. Maybe a feeling of comraderie in a medium that is anonymous by nature. Doesn't matter. The point here is that the forums end up being ruled by non-thinking extremists, while the sane majority is forced to either fit in, or be labeled by the other team.

 

snip

 

There's a lot of psychological study around 'group think' and the us vs. them mentality. As I only studied psychology as a minor out of interest I don't feel I'm qualified to comment on it, but the topic is very interesting and explains (or at least describes) a lot of the divisive nature in humans in general.

[curtkram]

It is also not the first time, that we explain, that criticism is most welcome... but mindless childish hate-posts are not (by either side!).

 

assuming there is a line between these 2 sorts of topic, you feel it's your duty to judge on which side a given topic falls?

 

what if i have a different opinion? you're going to trash me because what i see as a legitimate concern, perhaps worded poorly or written while a bit angry, doesn't meet your personal standard? if you disagree with a given post there's certainly no harm in responding why. it's when the same people repeat the same thing over and over that things turn bad. so disagree, then step out until you have a new, original, and thought-out response. and don't reply until you've read the other side's posts and considered their perspective.

 

that's why certain fanboys take heat. they won't walk away after they've stated their opinion. after maybe 2 posts they stop adding to the discussion and derail it into crap about entitlements and person attacks.

[TUXs]

The real trolls are those who defend obvious flaws in the game.

 

I must agree. And tbh, I don't think the "divide" is nearly as large as it may appear - it's simply the defenders being VERY vocal and taking every opportunity they can to call others belittling names like "entitled" or "QQers". Whenever any side calls the other names, you know they have no true argument.

[astrobearx]

So today I was thinking about the nature of this forum and how in my opinion there is a great divide in that their is are people who support the game and people who do not support the game. Now, what interests me is how the forum goers classify each other.

 

See for example it seems to me that any person who makes a positive remark, opinion, anything really are named several things. These include fanboy, Bioware employee, apologist, defender and most recently loyalist. Now on the other side when someone says something negative they are regarded as a troll, hater even if it is legit concerns. Now I am sure your wondering where I am going with this. Well I will try to explain. See one would think a forum of a game or anything really would have discussions about many things with different view points. But here it seems that any discussion no matter if it is a concern a praise or a suggestion or complaint it always devolves into the usual "i'm right and your wrong"

 

In the end I probably made no sense but I guess I just wish this place wasn't so hostile from both sides.

 

Any thoughts or flames are welcome.

lol i made a thread about this yesterday

 

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=639101

 

although i made it more hostile than this thread

Edited May 16, 2013 by astrobearx

[FormerOrpheus]

And it won't be the first time I explain this: Criticism, in itself, is not helpful.

 

Telling the developers they suck does not inspire them to work harder. Telling them that their decisions are stupid does not encourage them to see things your way. Telling them that they should do something in a particular way because that's the way you want it is not particularly helpful or convincing.

 

I've been working as a developer for various companies for a dozen years now. The most important lesson I've learned --and one that I've passed down to the dozen or so other developers I've mentored in that time-- is that the overlap between what I want to do and what the business-side allows me to do is depressingly small. The second most important thing I've learned is that very, very few of my customers will ever acknowledge this.

 

If you actually cared, and you actually wanted to improve the game, you'd show the developers what you like by praising the things they do well first, and then showing --with numbers, examples and so forth-- them how the things you don't like could be improved while acknowledging the fact that the developers are driven by a corporation that insists on making quarterly profit. Insults or empty criticism do nothing to help. They are actually very bad for community interaction, as it teaches developers that the community has no concern at all for the realities of their task.

 

Intelligent post.

[branmakmuffin]

I must agree. And tbh, I don't think the "divide" is nearly as large as it may appear - it's simply the defenders being VERY vocal and taking every opportunity they can to call others belittling names like "entitled" or "QQers". Whenever any side calls the other names, you know they have no true argument.

Extremists on both sides call each other names. For every person calling someone else a QQer or an entitled brat or a hater, there's someone on the other side calling someone else a fanboi or a biodrone or an apologist.

[theUndead]

assuming there is a line between these 2 sorts of topic, you feel it's your duty to judge on which side a given topic falls?

 

what if i have a different opinion? you're going to trash me because what i see as a legitimate concern, perhaps worded poorly or written while a bit angry, doesn't meet your personal standard? if you disagree with a given post there's certainly no harm in responding why. it's when the same people repeat the same thing over and over that things turn bad. so disagree, then step out until you have a new, original, and thought-out response. and don't reply until you've read the other side's posts and considered their perspective.

 

that's why certain fanboys take heat. they won't walk away after they've stated their opinion. after maybe 2 posts they stop adding to the discussion and derail it into crap about entitlements and person attacks.

 

I would agree with your entire point if not for the last part. The way you phrased that at least in my mind is that if you deem a post to be fanboyish and you respond in disagreement that person should just stop at two posts and walk away?

 

I mean can't they defend their point just like your defending yours? and I also disagree with notion that all those threads derail as I have seen threads that have started negative and people agree yet when someone comes with a different opinion those people attack the person. So yeah I think what your saying kind of works both ways

[JPryde]

assuming there is a line between these 2 sorts of topic, you feel it's your duty to judge on which side a given topic falls?

I wouldn't say there is a line between constructive criticism and childish hatred posts... I'd say, there is a large grey area between the two, just like there is a large grey area of people between a fanboy and a flameboy.

 

And no, I do not feel it is my duty to judge anyone or anything... but why are so many hate-posts doing just that ? Judging how *I* should feel about a certain game aspect and even implying that everyone who thinks different is a fanboy or an idiot or both ?

 

When someone writes, that a certain game aspect is horrible and "everyone knows that", then I do many times feel entitled to take the other side and state, that I do not feel that way. As long as I present a valid argument with my case or state my opinion as that... an opinion, it should be fine... yet I get called fanboy... so who is doing the judgement call?

[TUXs]

And it won't be the first time I explain this: Criticism, in itself, is not helpful.

 

Telling the developers they suck does not inspire them to work harder. Telling them that their decisions are stupid does not encourage them to see things your way. Telling them that they should do something in a particular way because that's the way you want it is not particularly helpful or convincing.

I completely agree with you - but you also have to understand that not everyone is good with words. Frustration and anger can come out as a jumbled mess from many people - just because someone doesn't phrase their complaint the best possible way, doesn't mean the complaint is invalid.

 

What I see quite often is people (largely the "defenders") almost heckling anyone who isn't succinct in their commentary. IMO, that's 100% inexcusable for ANYONE to do. It does nothing but fuel an already raging inferno, which gets absolutely nothing accomplished. I'm not talking about the "EFF OFF" type posts, I'm talking about the "This update sux!!!" kind.

 

My point - exercise some patience with people who are upset. Mockery doesn't fix problems, improve moods or help understanding.

[Devlonir]

A reasonable point of view.

 

Yet is misses the other side of the coin entirely.

 

Quite often I see threads with posts that are either complete hyperbole, based entirely on slippery slope arguments or actually state provable facts wrong.

Very often, I chose to mingle myself in those debates merely to ensure that the objective facts of the matter stay true.

 

More often than not, this gets me called things from white knight, to fanboi to even Developer-in-disguise (because of my name I guess..).

 

So really, it is not just the people with criticism being called haters or attacked for their views, dirt is being thrown all ways here and that creates a very unhealthy environment to have a debate.

 

I far from feel this game is flawless, but I simply accept it is a Freemium model where non-essential gameplay elements of the game are Cash Shop items. I feel in no way entitled to anything except access to my characters and full access to levellings, PVE and PVP from my subscription. Yet whenever I point out that, clearly personal, opinion as an opinion.. I get called a fanboy for not feeling entitled to more for the monthly price of not even 1/5th of my weekly groceries bill.

[TUXs]

Extremists on both sides call each other names. For every person calling someone else a QQer or an entitled brat or a hater, there's someone on the other side calling someone else a fanboi or a biodrone or an apologist.

 

Very true - I think that's emotion at work most of the time....but there are certainly those people out there who just love to antagonize, no matter what the issue is. It's not acceptable for either side to do though

[theUndead]

lol i made a thread about this yesterday

 

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=639101

 

although i made it more hostile than this thread

 

I read your thread and yes perhaps it was a bit more hostile than mine but I agree with your points as well.

[CelCawdro]

I defend aspects of the game that need to be defended and I criticize those aspects that are deserving of criticism.

 

I'm always perplexed by the need for people to "take sides" instead of applying a little reason to each issue, individually. Blanket generalizations are never a good thing.

[Devlonir]

I completely agree with you - but you also have to understand that not everyone is good with words. Frustration and anger can come out as a jumbled mess from many people - just because someone doesn't phrase their complaint the best possible way, doesn't mean the complaint is invalid.

 

What I see quite often is people (largely the "defenders") almost heckling anyone who isn't succinct in their commentary. IMO, that's 100% inexcusable for ANYONE to do. It does nothing but fuel an already raging inferno, which gets absolutely nothing accomplished. I'm not talking about the "EFF OFF" type posts, I'm talking about the "This update sux!!!" kind.

 

My point - exercise some patience with people who are upset. Mockery doesn't fix problems, improve moods or help understanding.

 

I agree with this entirely, and prefer to avoid responding to people that have clearly posted in high emotion.

 

The only moment I do feel the need to point out their huge flaws in reasoning is when they claim their clearly biased opinions as unshakable facts and keep defending them as the be-all end-all of the debate. The only thing that can /thread any debate is the actual facts of the matter, but too often people twist words and deliberately chose to ignore certain aspects for the sake of making their points to gain support.

 

Those moments are far from posts of high emotion, but are clear moments where someone is basicly just bashing for bashin's sake. And those moments deserve reality and fact checks.

And becoming angry when someone refutes your opinion with facts is a horrible, horrible way to respond to anything.

[dcgregorya]

And it won't be the first time I explain this: Criticism, in itself, is not helpful.

 

Telling the developers they suck does not inspire them to work harder. Telling them that their decisions are stupid does not encourage them to see things your way. Telling them that they should do something in a particular way because that's the way you want it is not particularly helpful or convincing.

 

I've been working as a developer for various companies for a dozen years now. The most important lesson I've learned --and one that I've passed down to the dozen or so other developers I've mentored in that time-- is that the overlap between what I want to do and what the business-side allows me to do is depressingly small. The second most important thing I've learned is that very, very few of my customers will ever acknowledge this.

 

I'm in software too and if the decision wasn't mine, people complaining about it doesn't bother me. Why would it? Wasn't my call. That being said, for the people who do get to make these decisions, yes a "You suck" might be needed, from time to time, when common sense fails.

 

When people complain here, they're not yelling at the guy making $20k/year in India or Eastern Europe who is coding some of this stuff - they're yelling at the business side of things that is prioritizing this pandering over what the customer base actually wants.

Edited May 16, 2013 by dcgregorya

[Andryah]

My point - exercise some patience with people who are upset..

 

That works both ways TUXS. Those people you are covering for here.. they are also very often the ones forum ganking, name calling, making baseless accusations, and attacking people who post anything they don't agree with ....and will not even listen to contrasting viewpoints in many cases.

 

The venom coming from the frustrated, directed at other forum members these last few days has been way over the top.

 

If people are frustrated, and cannot express their feelings without going nuts in the process, maybe they should just step back a few days and cool off. OR, fine, attack the game and the developers.. but stop attacking other forum members for entering a discussion and presenting differing views on a topic. If you can't do that, then you deserve the in your face pushback some members have been getting in some threads.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Andryah

[Malastare]

I completely agree with you - but you also have to understand that not everyone is good with words. Frustration and anger can come out as a jumbled mess from many people - just because someone doesn't phrase their complaint the best possible way, doesn't mean the complaint is invalid.

 

Absolutely. One of the things that some people (who, on occasion, include me) need to recognize is that one of the purposes of this forum is as a public rant-space. While it does absolutely nothing for me, many people do feel the need to release their anger and have others acknowledge it. People should not be insulted or mocked for doing that.

 

At the same time, having the desire to blow off some steam doesn't give someone the right to be insulting toward others. If someone decides to vent their anger by insulting Bioware or fanboys or some class of player, then its not cool. They should expect some form of social backlash. In general, our society doesn't tolerate unprovoked verbal attacks. Do this on a street, and you'll get a bunch of nasty looks -- subtle social backlash from people non-verbally telling you that your behavior is out of line. The internet doesn't support such feedback, so you should expect it in verbal form instead. The more vitriol you spew in your emotional release, the stronger the response you should expect.

 

What I see quite often is people (largely the "defenders") almost heckling anyone who isn't succinct in their commentary.

 

Again, I agree. And again, there are some other issues involved. If the response is purely poking fun at the style or quality of the commentary, then its just unnecessary. If the response is aimed at the quality of the ideas in the commentary, then its fair game. If someone is upset and doesn't know how to express their disappointment with low frame rates on their 6-year-old XP laptop, they are within their rights to complain and say that Bioware should make it so the game runs with full detail at 60fps. However, in a public forum, everyone else is within their rights (and to some small degree, somewhat obliged) to point out how far this request is from reality. You don't need insults and people shouldn't be attacked, but I see no social right to be allowed to present patently silly requests without opposition.

 

And that hits a little closer to what drives me to respond to many of the threads I respond to. I don't mind that people vent. More and more, I am simply avoiding them and letting them do their thing. However, I also feel some obligation to present more realistic, logical, and informed view points to some of the sillier or extreme topics. The point there is to visibly oppose the view points of others, in order to show the entire community that those ideas are not universally accepted.

 

Blanket generalizations are never a good thing.[/color]

 

Except... of course... when talking about blanket generalizations.

[curtkram]

...

Again, I agree. And again, there are some other issues involved. If the response is purely poking fun at the style or quality of the commentary, then its just unnecessary. If the response is aimed at the quality of the ideas in the commentary, then its fair game.

...

 

what if my response is based on previous responses pulling a topic i'm interested in off-topic?

 

there are a couple common discussion on the forums i would like to see developed, but someone starts pulling all of the 'entitled' and other buzz-word type comments to turn it away from the original topic. i think a fair amount of my comments are intended to get people back on topic. or at least that's what i think i'm intending. i might just be flame baiting.

 

if you think everything purchased by cartel coins is free, that's fine. go ahead and post your reasoning. if you have 5,000 cartel coins and assume everyone else does to, again go ahead and post that. i would prefer it if you didn't come back every 5 minutes and repeat the same crap over and over to derail a topic that probably has nothing to do with whether or not cartel coins are free. tell us once. explain your reasoning if you want and i'll consider it, but i'm not going change my opinion just because you're obsessive.

[curtkram]

I would agree with your entire point if not for the last part. The way you phrased that at least in my mind is that if you deem a post to be fanboyish and you respond in disagreement that person should just stop at two posts and walk away?

 

I mean can't they defend their point just like your defending yours? and I also disagree with notion that all those threads derail as I have seen threads that have started negative and people agree yet when someone comes with a different opinion those people attack the person. So yeah I think what your saying kind of works both ways

 

that is not what i meant. i just think it's annoying when people repeat the same thing over and over - especially when it's off topic. i think that's common behavior, with some people posting the same comments across multiple threads.

 

for example, if someone thinks sage area heals need nerfed, they can explain why they think that. there is a fair chance the community will explain why they are mistaken. having that person repeat over and over why they think the nerf is needed doesn't help the conversation. having a team of detractors or fanboys fill 8 pages about merc dps is even worse, since it's off topic.

if some sort of new point or perspective that hasn't already been addressed comes up, then sure they might have a different thing to add to the conversation. so just say it. try to be clear and articulate. then, if people disagree, consider their perspective they bring and let it go.

 

if it's a factual difference, post the link. don't make stuff up.

[MaximusRex]

Its partly the nature of forums that people with the most vested interest will tend to populate them, leading to more extreme views being represented.

[MSchuyler]

The Bottom Line here is that the forums don't really mean much--particularly Community and General. They are just a soapbox for complainers and those who complain about complainers. Nobody is going to change. People who go into fits of apoplexy over the nature of the new color system or their strident belief that "everything should be free!" will continue to believe these things and act accordingly while to people who complain about the complainers will continue to believe they are friggin idiots.

 

Meanwhile Bioware, I suspect, pays little attention to this. They have their business plan and they are making changes that will benefit themselves and grow the game. If they fail at this, then eventually the game goes away. C'est la vie. They have the data upon which to make decisions. They have the metrics. We don't, though many people make them up to fit their own points of view.

 

Some of the forum topics are VERY helpful and I don't mean to imply otherwise. New Player Help and Classes all are full of people who gripe little and provide some good help. There are some real gems in this mess.

 

I can't help thinking there is another way to divide us into two camps: Those who post on the forums, and those who play the game.

[Arkerus]

Meh. I don't care if I come off as mocking the people who:

 

Don't know the true hard facts

Post baseless accusations

Believe in conspiracy theories

Are just flat out wrong

Don't understand how project management and team structures work

 

When I first started posting I was usually pretty patient but the same people post the same assanine comments so I disregard addressing them in a non crass manner.

 

Does it make me look like a jerk? Maybe, but then again its a forum so I really don't care.

 

If someone cant be bothered to look up the facts before they post then I can't really be bothered to explain something more than once.

 

And no, I'm not like this in real life. At work I get paid to put with with BS. Not here.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Arkerus

[Shoogli]

And it won't be the first time I explain this: Criticism, in itself, is not helpful.

 

Sorry what ??? if it's done in a constructive way it *is* helpful !

 

Telling the developers they suck does not inspire them to work harder.

 

That's true, but not telling them when they indeed suck, and sorry but that has happened, would let them think everything is fine whereas it's not. And anyway telling them they suck when they suck isn't meant to inspire them to work harder, it's meant as a feedback plus :

Also it wouldn't happen that people tell them they outright suck in the first place if when they do something wrong they admit it and try to see if there's not a change that needs done, but when, and for many issues : the *constructive* criticism falls on deaf ears over and over and over then yes you need to understand that after several months some people start being a bit less constructive and start saying the dev suck.

 

Telling them that their decisions are stupid does not encourage them to see things your way. Telling them that they should do something in a particular way because that's the way you want it is not particularly helpful or convincing.

 

Nowadays it's not particularly that some of the devs decisions are stupid.

It's more like the management decisions are extremely greedy and to further on :

 

I've been working as a developer for various companies for a dozen years now. The most important lesson I've learned --and one that I've passed down to the dozen or so other developers I've mentored in that time-- is that the overlap between what I want to do and what the business-side allows me to do is depressingly small. The second most important thing I've learned is that very, very few of my customers will ever acknowledge this.

 

Maybe on the technical side of things, on some various topics, I can agree with that, but on the commercial aspect of it, the management aspect of it, well what I said above : the greedy aspect of it, then no, the overlap isn't so small, and in this case again : let's agree we disagree.

 

If you actually cared, and you actually wanted to improve the game, you'd show the developers what you like by praising the things they do well first, [...]

 

I'm hoping this isn't directed at me particularly and is some form of you thinking it's the general behavior of people who criticize parts of the game or the management or whatever else. If it's the case I'd only tell you let's agree to disagree since I think there are many many valid concerns and constructive criticisms that are just trolled with the "defenders" side by repeating things over and over and insulting, while there are many other very valid concerns that don't even get an answer, whether that answer satisfies the poster or not, etc...

 

if it's directed at me particularly, then you must have me mistaken with someone else because I do defend many areas of the game, while I do praise many others... Except when I do, I do it once and don't try to troll who disagree with me and come back at them over and over saying the same thing over and over.

 

Insults or empty criticism do nothing to help. They are actually very bad for community interaction, as it teaches developers that the community has no concern at all for the realities of their task.

 

We agree on that, except for the fact that it's not outright like this all the time for starter, and secondly if you actually look at the % of posters who criticize vs the % of posters who defend, most of the time what happens from the "defenders" is a lot of repeating the same thing over and over and drowning the discussion, starting with the name calling, trying to shut down the OP, calling in the end for people to unsub : the infamous "if you don't like it go away" and as has been said already : if we're posting here it means we have a sub, thus we enjoy the game.