PvP Community's Plans for Server Transfers

[NadirPalo]

This may be silly, but why can't we field more ranked teams on TEH?

 

Hey Amistar, I know you've recently returned to the game. People have tried to put together "kickball" or "pickup" type ranked games in the recent past and it's been mostly unsuccessful. If you or anyone else would like to make another attempt, you totally should go for it. That said, I think its practical to bring up issues that have been challenging to those organizing development-oriented ranked (not trying to be super negative or anything, just realistic). Based on my experiences, here are the hurdles that must be overcome:

 

-->Small PVP population. Getting a team of 8 together is extremely difficult for most guilds, let alone 8 with a good composition. 16++ with decent composition on all sides is going to be a huge challenge, given how few people are left PVPing here. Half of the problem is PVPers leaving the game, the other half is that while TEH is actually one of the largest servers in the game right now, there is so much drama surrounding PVP here that I suspect there are many people who would try to get involved, but are too scared of how *********** insane we all are

 

-->Misplaced intentions. You'd be suprised how many people will join up with these events purely for commendations. Its hard to filter out the people who are *not* joining in to improve themselves. These people won't give 100% and aren't interested in learning anything and it brings their team down.

 

-->Bad attitudes. Losing sucks, plain and simple. People get discouraged really quickly when they lose and its exacerbated when they are a) playing with a team of people they barely know and/or b) playing against close friends. It takes a rare mentality to endure tough losses and try to take something positive away from each one.

 

-->Party crashers. Unfortunately several times we've had kickballs or development-oriented ranked going on and for whatever reason (I won't even try to get into it, as this is the cause of a lot of the animosity between groups on this server and I'd hate to open that can of worms) some people feel the need to put together an A-team and come in and curbstomp these groups. SO, there is now an added element of secrecy that many feel is necessary to do any development-oriented ranked these days and it makes planning/publicity hard.

 

-->Apathy. Mentoring and developing teams (however rewarding it is) requires time, dedication, and patience. Sadly most people on this server, including top PVPers just don't care enough to do it. Its really sad, but this apathy is a force that makes trying to organize anything here just a step above hell (ask me about my 1v1 tournament... heh).

 

------

 

IF we could resolve these things and get some sort of massive-scale player development going on, that would be fan-freaking-tastic and I'd love to help any way I can. Its also possible that after some people leave with paid transfers, some of the things I mentioned will become non-issues.

Edited May 21, 2013 by NadirPalo

[Advanderer]

Can we get some ranked on Saturday or Sunday mornings? I'd even queue drunk.

Anything can happen if you get drunk on Saturday mornings...

[NadirPalo]

Can we get some ranked on Saturday or Sunday mornings? I'd even queue drunk.

 

lol! word! count me in!

[RGMetal]

Anything can happen if you get drunk on Saturday mornings...

 

I've been doing it for months, and nothing seems to happen(excluding the afternoon hangover), maybe more booze is needed? lol

[random_kick]

I've been doing it for months, and nothing seems to happen(excluding the afternoon hangover), maybe more booze is needed? lol

 

More booze is always needed. I tend to PVP better after a few drinks. XD

[TheronFett]

This may be silly, but why can't we field more ranked teams on TEH?

 

Because no one wants to play against the ranked teams that we have now, for various reasons. I could list several here, but it would only start the troll train rolling again. At the end of the day, it all boils down to lack of interest.

 

A draft sounds like a feasible idea on paper, but it would be a disaster.

[ML_DoubleTap]

Hey Amistar, I know you've recently returned to the game. People have tried to put together "kickball" or "pickup" type ranked games in the recent past and it's been mostly unsuccessful. If you or anyone else would like to make another attempt, you totally should go for it. That said, I think its practical to bring up issues that have been challenging to those organizing development-oriented ranked (not trying to be super negative or anything, just realistic). Based on my experiences, here are the hurdles that must be overcome:

 

-->Small PVP population. Getting a team of 8 together is extremely difficult for most guilds, let alone 8 with a good composition. 16++ with decent composition on all sides is going to be a huge challenge, given how few people are left PVPing here. Half of the problem is PVPers leaving the game, the other half is that while TEH is actually one of the largest servers in the game right now, there is so much drama surrounding PVP here that I suspect there are many people who would try to get involved, but are too scared of how *********** insane we all are

 

-->Misplaced intentions. You'd be suprised how many people will join up with these events purely for commendations. Its hard to filter out the people who are *not* joining in to improve themselves. These people won't give 100% and aren't interested in learning anything and it brings their team down.

 

-->Bad attitudes. Losing sucks, plain and simple. People get discouraged really quickly when they lose and its exacerbated when they are a) playing with a team of people they barely know and/or b) playing against close friends. It takes a rare mentality to endure tough losses and try to take something positive away from each one.

 

-->Party crashers. Unfortunately several times we've had kickballs or development-oriented ranked going on and for whatever reason (I won't even try to get into it, as this is the cause of a lot of the animosity between groups on this server and I'd hate to open that can of worms) some people feel the need to put together an A-team and come in and curbstomp these groups. SO, there is now an added element of secrecy that many feel is necessary to do any development-oriented ranked these days and it makes planning/publicity hard.

 

-->Apathy. Mentoring and developing teams (however rewarding it is) requires time, dedication, and patience. Sadly most people on this server, including top PVPers just don't care enough to do it. Its really sad, but this apathy is a force that makes trying to organize anything here just a step above hell (ask me about my 1v1 tournament... heh).

 

------

 

IF we could resolve these things and get some sort of massive-scale player development going on, that would be fan-freaking-tastic and I'd love to help any way I can. Its also possible that after some people leave with paid transfers, some of the things I mentioned will become non-issues.

 

Yeah I remember someone starting a thread to try and get days/times of availability to put together pickup teams...was either you or Mort I think. Unfortunately it didn't really go anywhere. The amount of planning around mutltiple schedules is enormous and only made more difficult when you're dealing with several people/guilds that may not necessarily get along.

 

All that said, I'd love for this to happen...just not sure it feasible. If it is I'll pitch in anyway I can. Mort mentioned a vent/mumble/TS channel for the effort, I'd pitch in a month's fees if we can actually get something working.

 

One of the biggest issues I see is some folks that actually do currently queue ranked...or at least did, as they sound like they're dead lately...won't want to risk their ranking by playing with 'pick up' teams, understandably. But, at this point nearly a year into 'preseason' does it even matter anymore?

[NadirPalo]

Because no one wants to play against the ranked teams that we have now

 

Um, I do, and I'm not alone... but as I said in my previous post getting 8 of the right people together is an enormous challenge.

 

"Lack of interest" is probably accurate for a lot of people, though.

Edited May 21, 2013 by NadirPalo

[Sindol]

This may be silly, but why can't we field more ranked teams on TEH? Yeah it's gonna be imbalanced at first, people don't know how to play with each other, but it's not like it's hard to get on a TS, start focusing targets (*gulp*), and play the objectives but we have enough alert and aware players on both sides to make it happen.

 

Maybe we should have a PvP draft on both sides before people blow a ton of money on xfers.

 

Hey, Amistar.

 

I'm actually gonna disagree with most of the people that have responded to you thus far. It's typically the general opinion that the problem with ranked PvP is that the other guilds that have PvP elements don't want to queue against the teams that are already established in PvP because they don't want to lose to said team for this reason or that reason.

 

Instead these guilds with PvP elements that may have other aspects to their guilds tend to be very exclusive when they run their kickball games and try to do it very hush hush so that their party doesn't get "crashed". However, I can tell you from experience with a lot of the accused "crashers" is that if people are open about their intentions and they actually plan to run ranked in the future then the more experienced players/guilds will actually let them do their thing. The problem is that these "other" guilds (guilds that aren't just end-game PvP guilds) ask the competitive ranked guilds not to crash their party because they want to get ready for ranked and practice and then they never queue up for ranked for this reason or that reason. Also, you have these splinter guilds trying to run ranked on the down-low just to farm comms and that's just not going to happen. If any competitive team hears about you win swapping or just getting in ranked War Zones to farm comms then I would hope they get in queue to stop that from taking place. It's just flat out stupid (in my opinion) and the competitive teams should stop less serious guilds from attempting to take advantage of their turf (so to speak).

 

A lot of people might not like this stance that I have and I know I've butted heads with people over this in the past, but this is why ranked doesn't exist on our server. It's because we're on an RP server that has really good PvPers, however, a lot of those good PvPers are also RPers and Raiders and the dedication that the strict PvPers have to the aspect of this game that they adore sets the other back a little bit as they would rather the PvP heavy folks adjust to be more "carebear" (if you will). Rather than the other guilds that could run ranked buckling down and getting serious, they would rather the hardcore PvP guilds be less serious (if that makes any sense). This just isn't going to happen and that's why most of your dedicated PvPers are contemplating moving to Pot5, it's not about the caliber of player it's about being on a PvP Server and there being less drama and less QQ over PvP and the way that individuals choose to go about PvPing.

 

Anyways. That's why there isn't more ranked, not that the stuff that others said isn't true as well, but what I've stated here is the biggest problem. Nadir made a lot of good points as well, but they are all secondary to what I've said here in my opinion.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Sindol

[Kormad]

Because no one wants to play against the ranked teams that we have now

A draft sounds like a feasible idea on paper, but it would be a disaster.

 

Like Nadir said, I for one do, even with the lag I constantly have on my old laptop. If we didn't want to play against them why would we transfer to the same server as them? (if PvP server transfers are possible)

[NadirPalo]

Anyways. That's why there isn't more ranked, not that the stuff that others said isn't true as well, but what I've stated here is the biggest problem. Nadir made a lot of good points as well, but they are all secondary to what I've said here in my opinion.

 

I just think we were talking about two different things

 

"Why do guilds not do ranked"

 

and

 

"Why is there no kickball or development for random un(PVP)guilded players"

 

are two separate questions. You addressed the first, and I addressed the second.

 

However, I can tell you from experience with a lot of the accused "crashers" is that if people are open about their intentions and they actually plan to run ranked in the future then the more experienced players/guilds will actually let them do their thing. The problem is that these "other" guilds (guilds that aren't just end-game PvP guilds) ask the competitive ranked guilds not to crash their party because they want to get ready for ranked and practice and then they never queue up for ranked for this reason or that reason.

 

As for this. It may be true now but, I'm not sure what planet you were on (or I was on) 8 months ago because this does not agree with my memories from those days. Again, maybe we're referring to two different eras here.

Edited May 21, 2013 by NadirPalo

[FeralPug]

Ranked kickball sucks. It is an extremely unpleasant, short-lived band aid to the current situation on our server. Imagine scooping your own eyeballs out with a white hot, acid-coated, rusty grapefruit spoon made of rabid piranhas and you might approach the pain of being on a kickball team.

 

The gap between a coordinated team and a fresh ranked team is so vast that it's hard to even describe to someone who has not experienced it. It is 10X worse than your worst normal PUG match. And at the end of the game, you can't even make yourself feel better by blaming PUG baddies.

 

Sorry to be bleak, but I'm telling you right now: we've tried all this. Members of <Hex> and other guilds have sacrificed rating and win/loss ratios in attempt to bolster the PVP community on TEH. Unfortunately, bolster doesn't work (either for BW or us).

 

There are only enough hardcore PVPers on our server to fill maybe 2 8 man teams. 2 teams is not enough. It's totally unsustainable. Casual players don't cut it because they are neither geared enough, or practiced enough to function effectively in a ranked game.

 

There is no solving this issue on TEH, and honestly folks trying to fix it with kickball nights and thinking that these games even remotely resemble actual ranked games with established teams just underscores the fact that we are on the wrong server. I know you mean well, and I appreciate the thought, but when you guys propose solutions like this, it makes it even more clear that the PVP community on TEH is not on the same page.

 

[<Rabid Piranhas> is the best guild name ever. Someone steal it, please!]

Edited May 21, 2013 by FeralPug

[ML_DoubleTap]

A lot of people might not like this stance that I have and I know I've butted heads with people over this in the past, but this is why ranked doesn't exist on our server. It's because we're on an RP server that has really good PvPers, however, a lot of those good PvPers are also RPers and Raiders and the dedication that the strict PvPers have to the aspect of this game that they adore sets the other back a little bit as they would rather the PvP heavy folks adjust to be more "carebear" (if you will). Rather than the other guilds that could run ranked buckling down and getting serious, they would rather the hardcore PvP guilds be less serious (if that makes any sense). This just isn't going to happen and that's why most of your dedicated PvPers are contemplating moving to Pot5, it's not about the caliber of player it's about being on a PvP Server and there being less drama and less QQ over PvP and the way that individuals choose to go about PvPing.

 

I think this breaks it down extremely well, and is why way back on page 2 I said transfers are probably best for both sides. There is just not a large enough crowd that is soley pvp...because, like you said people RP and raid as well. I love queuing, even though it's almost exclusively solo, but my limited time is spent between PvP and being a regular member of our progression raid team as well. I enjoy several aspects of the game and just can't find enough time to compete at the level as the top PvP guilds. Having a 40hr/week job and two kids doesn't help in the time area I also have alt ADD and play several toons a night which makes the gearing process a little slower.

 

I'm not sure how other broad focus guild do things, but we have RP nights, Progression nights, Open Raid nights, PvP nights, etc...having just a night or two to PvP isn't nearly enough to compete so that aspect of the game has kind of fallen off for us. Individually we have some pretty good players, but just don't have the amount of practice time neded.

[NadirPalo]

Ranked kickball sucks. It is an extremely unpleasant, short-lived band aid to the current situation on our server. Imagine scooping your own eyeballs out with a white hot, acid-coated, rusty grapefruit spoon made of rabid piranhas and you might approach the pain of being on a kickball team.

 

hang on, are you talking smack about grapefruit? grapefruit is awesome, bro.

[ML_DoubleTap]

There are only enough hardcore PVPers on our server to fill maybe 2 8 man teams. 2 teams is not enough. It's totally unsustainable. Casual players don't cut it because they are neither geared enough, or practiced enough to function effectively in a ranked game.

 

I have a hard time buying this. From everything I've heard and from watching plenty of streams there's really not that many more good ranked teams on the other servers...there's just more ranked teams. Several folks in this thread have said as much...the talent pool here as a percentage is high comparatively. I would venture a guess that we could field a couple 'kickball' teams that could compete with a few of the lesser ranked teams on PvP servers. The main problem seems to be there is a huge gap at entry here that you don't see as much on the other servers which acts as gating to most groups.

 

disclaimer: I've only played like 4 ranked games(and won 1! ), so most of my context is gathered from reading forums and watching streams. I'm happy to admit I could be very wrong.

[Battyone]

How about this, if there are 7 people out there that want to get better, I'll play with them. I don't mind getting curbstomped by gurella, hex, hell even my own guild if they field a team, I actually find it to be fun and exciting because they seem to tunnel on me anyway and that's an exploitable weakness if the team is actually organized. Additionally you can't get better by just winning all the time, you have to fail to succeed and if you can't deal with it you need to go play hello kitty online adventure where everyone wins. I can host a TS/Vent/Mumble via the old Scruffy Nerfherders Enjin, and will literally play with _anyone_ who actually wants to learn and improve.

 

The only rule I have is no QQ. I don't care if we get 3capped and /dance'ed with all game, you can be fusturated but channel that into what you can do better not some crying party. What you can do better applies to the team at large, I am not going to sugar coat ****, if you **** up I'll tell you how, I'll probably even have a nice video replay for you, the same system I use myself to see when _i_ **** up.

 

I am not forming a PvP guild, I am not going to care if we run under the same banner or not, do you want to get better at situational awareness and lose a ton of games to better players? Hit me up in game. Do you want to curbstomp my ragtag group? Hit me up in game. I am 100% down with losing every single match to improve my play and have an actual organized PvP experience over the cluster**** that trying to call **** in /ops can be at times.

 

I record/stream all my PvP so be comfy with what you say being out there, I will /say troll the other team, I prefer them to focus me when I can, I need those WZ death achs anyway.

 

*EDIT -- I really enjoy the PvP community we have on TEH, I do not want to see it go away so that people can play worse and feel good about themselves. I'd rather more people play better and not just QQ and run when the odds are against them.

 

*EDIT 2 -- My Impside is Fow'is, sniper playing for the amazing IA story if you want to arrange a match/queue time and I'm not on Amistar.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Battyone

[Advanderer]

Additionally you can't get better by just winning all the time, you have to fail to succeed and if you can't deal with it you need to go play hello kitty online adventure where everyone wins.

This. But can we do ranked and play Hello Kitty at the same time? LET'S DO THAT!

Edited May 21, 2013 by Advanderer

[NadirPalo]

This. But can we do ranked and play Hello Kitty at the same time? LET'S DO THAT!

 

while drunk, on saturday mornings.

[ML_DoubleTap]

I'd be happy to join you. I can bring heals(Tann'se), tank(Askar) or dps(Siir) on Pub side...don't have an Imp to 55 yet. I'm online most nights after 10pm server time.

[Battyone]

while drunk, on saturday mornings.

 

Who PvPs sober?

[Prisoner]

The gap between a coordinated team and a fresh ranked team is so vast that it's hard to even describe to someone who has not experienced it. It is 10X worse than your worst normal PUG match. And at the end of the game, you can't even make yourself feel better by blaming PUG baddies.

 

In my extremely limited experience (I have played a the whopping grand total of five ranked games, so obviously that makes me an expert ), this is 100% true. You really cannot understand the gap until you've experienced it yourself. I mean, really? You just have no chance, because the other team is playing the game on a level that is so far above what you can do as a newb team. Now that's not something I'd personally have a problem with if I thought the players I was queueing up I would have enough patience and stick together long enough to learn from the asskickings and that it would eventually lead to something better.

 

Sadly, that's not what happens. Instead, you have two or three players who actually want to keep trying (like me), and the other five who are like "Screw this! This is not fun." and then drop from your team. Then on top of it you add the fact that you need super specific team compositions, have to take into account everyone's real life schedule, and the fact that you can't actually practice with all eight of you in a non assbeating environment where you can live long enough to learn something.

 

And you know, I really don't think one attitude is "right" or the other is "wrong." I don't blame people for their apathy, because I mean, who wants to stand around on the fleet for an hour as we beg people to come and play, when we could simply just queue in and play four normal games in the same amount of time? People play this game for fun, and if you are not in the top 5% of the pvp population and in a guild with a deep enough bench to support it, trying to queue for ranked just such a freaking pain in the ***.

 

That said, I would love to try ranked again. I'm just not personally in a guild that has enough players to field even four people most of the time (which, is entirely on me, I realize), and I'm not really sure that there's enough cohesion amongst the smaller, less hardcore guilds to do something interguild. I very sincerely hope that y'all proves me wrong though and if you ever need a healy type sage, hit me up on Jaxio in game.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Prisoner

[DarthBror]

How about this, if there are 7 people out there that want to get better, I'll play with them. I don't mind getting curbstomped by gurella, hex, hell even my own guild if they field a team, I actually find it to be fun and exciting because they seem to tunnel on me anyway and that's an exploitable weakness if the team is actually organized. Additionally you can't get better by just winning all the time, you have to fail to succeed and if you can't deal with it you need to go play hello kitty online adventure where everyone wins. I can host a TS/Vent/Mumble via the old Scruffy Nerfherders Enjin, and will literally play with _anyone_ who actually wants to learn and improve.

 

The only rule I have is no QQ. I don't care if we get 3capped and /dance'ed with all game, you can be fusturated but channel that into what you can do better not some crying party. What you can do better applies to the team at large, I am not going to sugar coat ****, if you **** up I'll tell you how, I'll probably even have a nice video replay for you, the same system I use myself to see when _i_ **** up.

 

I am not forming a PvP guild, I am not going to care if we run under the same banner or not, do you want to get better at situational awareness and lose a ton of games to better players? Hit me up in game. Do you want to curbstomp my ragtag group? Hit me up in game. I am 100% down with losing every single match to improve my play and have an actual organized PvP experience over the cluster**** that trying to call **** in /ops can be at times.

 

I record/stream all my PvP so be comfy with what you say being out there, I will /say troll the other team, I prefer them to focus me when I can, I need those WZ death achs anyway.

 

*EDIT -- I really enjoy the PvP community we have on TEH, I do not want to see it go away so that people can play worse and feel good about themselves. I'd rather more people play better and not just QQ and run when the odds are against them.

 

*EDIT 2 -- My Impside is Fow'is, sniper playing for the amazing IA story if you want to arrange a match/queue time and I'm not on Amistar.

 

+1 on all of this bro..

 

Sadly this was my sentiment months back. I too was and still am eager for this to happen. It can if there are even a handful of other masochists like us..

 

Be prepared for **** talk tho man.. Not from the PVP guilds, but from the community.. I would broadcast in /say and the PVP channel LFG Ranked.. I literally had people say **** like "If you wanna do ranked then LTP and get on a Ranked team.. Don't bring us along to your *** rape party"..

 

But really, I would even join you bro. Im a mediocre Sorc and will provide what ever support I can.. Im sure If we put together a group, I could jump into mumble and get guerrillas to put together an impromptu team. It may be frustrating.. So be preapared for our PUGs to rage or simply leave quietly.. But if your really down, I will join you.. Whisper Mortalya on Imp side, or Mortasha on Pubs.

Edited May 21, 2013 by DarthBror

[Battyone]

+1 on all of this bro..

 

Sadly this was my sentiment months back. I too was and still am eager for this to happen. It can if there are even a handful of other masochists like us..

 

Be prepared for **** talk tho man.. Not from the PVP guilds, but from the community.. I would broadcast in /say and the PVP channel LFG Ranked.. I literally had people say **** like "If you wanna do ranked then LTP and get on a Ranked team.. Don't bring us along to your *** rape party"..

 

But really, I would even join you bro. Im a mediocre Sorc and will provide what ever support I can.. Im sure If we put together a group, I could jump into mumble and get guerrillas to put together an impromptu team. It may be frustrating.. So be preapared for our PUGs to rage or simply leave quietly.. But if your really down, I will join you.. Whisper Mortalya on Imp side, or Mortasha on Pubs.

 

Lol **** the people in chat, I want this to be organized, I will have a list of 7+ players + me, we will have a time that we do it, I am not running PUG groups I am taking a group of people in who want to play ranked and learn, not just anyone on fleet. I'll probably retool the Scruffy Nerfherders page to act as a hub for this if I see more interest. I don't want to bring random people in, that's not how cohesion and teamwork are built. I am not going to just do rankeds for the sake of Gurella getting their coms so they stay, I am going to do them to get a group of people better at this game.

[DarthBror]

Well either way man.. Im down to PVP.. That's why I joined a PVP guild the first place..

 

I have NO problem whatsoever queing against my guildies. In fact, I hope I get the opportunity more often. I like to be tested against a high level of completion just as much as I want to be a part of the same group.

 

Put your team together bro.. Ill can help bolster your numbers and or facilitate a team to play against you.

[silvershadows]

Like I've said before, PM finally recruited our full 8 and hopefully we'll be out there soon. We're trying to work out our schedule and we have one member on vacation right now so nothing has been finalized except our players and our group composition. Edited May 21, 2013 by silvershadows