Beware: Dye Modules, TOTAL RIPOFF

[Eldrenath]

I hadn't had time time to play this week due to RL issues. So I had no idea until this morning that the dye packs they added to the game are from random packs. I simply couldn't believe it, I was astounded.

 

I've been critical of BW at times, but for the most part have been something of a defender. Heck, I was even defending the reasoning behind 2.1 earlier this week on the forums (somehow in those threads I never saw it mentioned that dyes were random). This, however, is a bridge too far. I don't mind them putting dyes in the cartel market. I do mind, and mind a lot, them putting dyes in the CM only as random packs.

 

I didn't even plan to buy any dyes. I've always thought it kind of silly that so many MMO players care so very much about cosmetic things. I care about gameplay above everything else: ops, flashpoints, warzones, etc, and I care very little about what my toons are wearing.

 

Yet even though I had no intention of buying dyes in the first place, as soon as I learned about these random dye packs, I immediately cancelled my sub. I might come back, I have before. But that's just it for me--there are too many other games out there to play. The MMO market (and video games in general) has a TON of options. Time to move on to one of those for a bit.

 

Several people have posted threads this week asking where's the line. I had always said "the line for me is any flashpoint, op, warzone, questline, or story component being gated behind cartel coins." It appears I was wrong--the line for me was introducing something the players have wanted for a long time (dyes), and instead of charging a fair price for it and making a very nice profit making it a random lottery so they can take advantage of the people that love playing MMO dress up so much they drop lots of cash on getting dyes. Sure, the players are stupid for playing the lottery to get the dyes but BW making them random like that is just awful.

 

Sub cancelled, and I've already re-subbed to another MMO I used to play. I'm 100% sure BW doesn't give a darn, because a whole bunch of players are gonna spend WAY more than my $15 sub fee buying cartel coins to get dyes. So BW has lost my monthly sub money, but I'm quite sure that was a calculated choice on their part: lose X dollars in monthly subs due to people angry about an absurd dye system but gain Y dollars every month on people gambling on dyes. They know darn well that Y is far, FAR larger than X in this case.

[OpenSorce]

I hadn't had time time to play this week due to RL issues. So I had no idea until this morning that the dye packs they added to the game are from random packs. I simply couldn't believe it, I was astounded.

 

I've been critical of BW at times, but for the most part have been something of a defender. Heck, I was even defending the reasoning behind 2.1 earlier this week on the forums (somehow in those threads I never saw it mentioned that dyes were random). This, however, is a bridge too far. I don't mind them putting dyes in the cartel market. I do mind, and mind a lot, them putting dyes in the CM only as random packs.

 

I didn't even plan to buy any dyes. I've always thought it kind of silly that so many MMO players care so very much about cosmetic things. I care about gameplay above everything else: ops, flashpoints, warzones, etc, and I care very little about what my toons are wearing.

 

Yet even though I had no intention of buying dyes in the first place, as soon as I learned about these random dye packs, I immediately cancelled my sub. I might come back, I have before. But that's just it for me--there are too many other games out there to play. The MMO market (and video games in general) has a TON of options. Time to move on to one of those for a bit.

 

Several people have posted threads this week asking where's the line. I had always said "the line for me is any flashpoint, op, warzone, questline, or story component being gated behind cartel coins." It appears I was wrong--the line for me was introducing something the players have wanted for a long time (dyes), and instead of charging a fair price for it and making a very nice profit making it a random lottery so they can take advantage of the people that love playing MMO dress up so much they drop lots of cash on getting dyes. Sure, the players are stupid for playing the lottery to get the dyes but BW making them random like that is just awful.

 

Sub cancelled, and I've already re-subbed to another MMO I used to play. I'm 100% sure BW doesn't give a darn, because a whole bunch of players are gonna spend WAY more than my $15 sub fee buying cartel coins to get dyes. So BW has lost my monthly sub money, but I'm quite sure that was a calculated choice on their part: lose X dollars in monthly subs due to people angry about an absurd dye system but gain Y dollars every month on people gambling on dyes. They know darn well that Y is far, FAR larger than X in this case.

 

Yeah, I doubt I'll keep subbing after this, but we'll see.

[branmakmuffin]

If they were more interested in customer satisfaction than milking us for every penny they can, they would have done something like that.

If only BWEA were a non-profit like NCSoft.

[XantosCledwin]

Oh and let's not forget, not only can you not change the colors... you also cannot simply buy the colors you want from the market! No, when you buy a Dye pack it's luck of the draw!

 

You really expected a company to add a way to dye digital prduct, and then not to find a way to exploit it for their own profit?

[CadeAssant]

Black Dyes are easy to get on my server, just very overpriced. Not paying 4 - 1.9 million for a one time use dye.

[Gwena]

I wouldn't call it a rip-off, so much as that some armor sets have some undye-able areas. GW2 actually has this on a few sets, too. It certainly is disappointing though. I was really looking forward to using the Preceptor's robe for my Sith, minus the bile yellow, but the dark brown color stays no matter what. And I don't want him to look too Jedi-ish with lighter browns and whites, and greys clash with the dark brown, but guess what color dye module would go perfectly with it? Yep, black/black. Too rich for my blood though -- maybe when he's level 55 and has been doing as many dailies as I can stomach and has the perfect armor set. And here I thought mod removal costs were a deterrent to changing my characters' armor. :/

 

I really do feel that they shouldn't have made black/black "super rare" though, just "rare", because player demand will obviously be very high. And really, this is a game where at least 25% of the characters are Sith. Black is a normal, classic, iconic color for them, just like brown is for Jedi. There's already a ton of Sith wearing black even without dye modules, so having half your WZ team dressed in black should not be a strange thing if you are teaming up with a bunch of Sith and secret agent types. Heck, Force user types in general aren't known for their colorful wardrobes. xD

Edited May 19, 2013 by Gwena

[PowerPure]

Scammers

[SavingPrincess]

In a way, I'm happy that people can't just pick black/black -- if that were the case I imagine at least 50% the characters and companions you see would be in black/black, and probably higher in warzones, especially on the Imperial teams

 

Oh no! Then it might look like Star Wars!

 

Instead of what the high level PVP armors look like now, which is World of Warcraft.

Edited May 19, 2013 by SavingPrincess
Clarification

[Anzel]

You really expected a company to add a way to dye digital prduct, and then not to find a way to exploit it for their own profit?

 

They took the most trivial feature and then over complicated it beyond reason. Then the stamped they word "extra" on it and decided everyone has to play yet another lottery. What a bunch of lying %$@#ers. They couldn't just list them on the market? No, of course not. They had to add them to yet another form of their GARBAGE lottery packs. Also, your subscription is due. Fun right?

Edited May 19, 2013 by Anzel

[SavingPrincess]

I also loved Champions and City of's character customization. Especially with the multiple "Costumes" you could have. I've always been sad at "armor-based" mmo's, because you never really feel unique.

 

DC Universe Online kinda blends the two in an acceptable way.

 

As you collect armors throughout the game, you unlock their "style." Which is to say, you can change your style at any time to any style you've previously unlocked without affecting your stats. This makes for a satisfying "collection" and "progression" type of experience, while still maintaining a semblance of creativity and individuality.

 

I think with the "collections" system they've implemented that a DC Universe type of system wouldn't be too hard. You could choose your look through that style of interface, even apply dye modules you've "unlocked" (not this one-time use then destroyed nonsense. DC Universe Online gives you a RGB Slider for each color slot of your character and each individual armor piece that can be changed at any point for zero cost). This would make for a much richer customization experience while still retaining the necessity to purchase, collect, and obtain armor sets throughout the game.

[UndyingImhotep]

Dumbest thing I've ever seen. And it takes a TON to top what NCSoft did with CoH/V.

 

fixed for accuracy.

[Anzel]

All they had to do was list everything in the market. That's all they had to do. Armor, dyes, gear, toys, etc. Even though we are STILL paying subscriptions, most people would have been happy to spend extra for the "stuff".

 

But that's not what happened isn't it? They had to put everything into their GARBAGE lottery packs. Everything goes into their STUPID lottery packs. Even the most trivial of features. Everything is extra and everything goes into the lottery system. What a bunch of deluded, lying scam artist @#$%$#s.

[Andryah]

I hadn't had time time to play this week due to RL issues. So I had no idea until this morning that the dye packs they added to the game are from random packs. I simply couldn't believe it, I was astounded.

 

Some are, some are not. Some come from crafters, some from dye kits from the CM, some from Security Vendor and CE vendor.

 

Regardless.. they are all tradeable and hence can all be purchased from the GTN from other players without spending a single cartel coin. Even the very desireable and rare dyes are well stocked on the GTN.

 

I have an entire cargo hold of dual color dyes I have aquired form the GTN, in colors that work just fine for all my armors. My personal favorites are white/light-orange, Dark-Purple/Light-Blue, and Dark-Blue/Light-Brown. They go great on almost every piece of armor, and I've been snapping them up off the GTN for less then 10K a pop for several days now.

 

Personally, I find the Black/Black to be underwhelming..and just use Deep-Blue/Black which can be had for much much lower cost because it is a crafter made dye. Same with White/White. I just go with a White/pick-your-secondary-color and it works great for most needs. But hey.. if people got to have White/White and Black/Black and want to spend north of 1M credits.. more power to them. I have the credits.. but I see them both as a poor investment for results.

 

My point is.. while there are constraints in the dye system.. there is sufficient flexibilty to really change your armor for economical prices in credits, and no compelling need to buy dye kits from the CM. People should play test more, and figure out how to apply the system (optimally, within the current constraints) before complaining IMO.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Andryah

[SavingPrincess]

Some are, some are not. Some come from crafters, some from dye kits from the CM, some from Security Vendor and CE vendor.

 

Regardless.. they are all tradeable and hence can all be purchased from the GTN from other players without spending a single cartel coin. Even the very desireable and rare dyes are well stocked on the GTN.

 

I have an entire cargo hold of dual color dyes I have aquired form the GTN, in colors that work just fine for all my armors. My personal favorites are white/light-orange, Dark-Purple/Light-Blue, and Dark-Blue/Light-Brown. They go great on almost every piece of armor, and I've been snapping them up off the GTN for less then 10K a pop for several days now.

 

Personally, I find the Black/Black to be underwhelming..and just use Deep-Blue/Black which can be had for much much lower cost because it is a crafter made dye. Same with White/White. I just go with a White/pick-your-secondary-color and it works great for most needs. But hey.. if people got to have White/White and Black/Black and want to spend north of 1M credits.. more power to them. I have the credits.. but I see them both as a poor investment for results.

 

My point is.. while there are constraints in the dye system.. there is sufficient flexibilty to really change your armor for economical prices in credits, and no compelling need to buy dye kits from the CM. People should play test more, and figure out how to apply the system (optimally, within the current constraints) before complaining IMO.

 

So everyone should play test, so they can figure out how to work through the nonsense systems that make it to the real servers?

 

... kay.

 

That being said, this is probably the worst implementation of a dye system in any MMO I've played. Sets like the Matriarchal Set can't even be properly dyed, the main chest of the armor will remain that off-white-bluish color no matter what color is applied. Aside from Andryah being the epitome of the Trollpologist, this really is a bad system and they didn't test out the armors very well to make sure they looked correct when applying dyes. The primary/secondary system is awful, and they could have easily fixed it by having separate primary and secondary (and even tertiary) dye slots.

 

I would have also liked seeing the dyes added to collections like the other CM items and have them be unlockable for a fee. Seems silly (or greedy) that they didn't put the dyes in there since they created the system. Especially since ALL other cartel market items are there.

[FabulousDoctor]

And? So what if half or all of the game were people wearing black/black? Characters would look the way players wanted them to.

 

Because if we let the teenagers be any more edgy they might start cutting themselves on accident.

[SithKoriandr]

Some are, some are not. Some come from crafters, some from dye kits from the CM, some from Security Vendor and CE vendor.

 

Regardless.. they are all tradeable and hence can all be purchased from the GTN from other players without spending a single cartel coin. Even the very desireable and rare dyes are well stocked on the GTN.

 

I have an entire cargo hold of dual color dyes I have aquired form the GTN, in colors that work just fine for all my armors. My personal favorites are white/light-orange, Dark-Purple/Light-Blue, and Dark-Blue/Light-Brown. They go great on almost every piece of armor, and I've been snapping them up off the GTN for less then 10K a pop for several days now.

 

Personally, I find the Black/Black to be underwhelming..and just use Deep-Blue/Black which can be had for much much lower cost because it is a crafter made dye. Same with White/White. I just go with a White/pick-your-secondary-color and it works great for most needs. But hey.. if people got to have White/White and Black/Black and want to spend north of 1M credits.. more power to them. I have the credits.. but I see them both as a poor investment for results.

 

My point is.. while there are constraints in the dye system.. there is sufficient flexibilty to really change your armor for economical prices in credits, and no compelling need to buy dye kits from the CM. People should play test more, and figure out how to apply the system (optimally, within the current constraints) before complaining IMO.

 

Exactly! People are having to pay creds they don't have, or cash, for a chance at getting what they want.

 

Why didnt they make it so Black/Black or White/White could be crafted? Oh, because they knew they'd be highly sought after. It's a terrible implementation.

[FabulousDoctor]

Exactly! People are having to pay creds they don't have, or cash, for a chance at getting what they want.

 

So get the credits.

 

"People are having to pay creds they don't have to get gear they want! This is terrible implementation! I should be able to get everything free!"

 

If you want to look dashing, you gotta spend some dollah dollah bills, in game or out of game.

Edited May 19, 2013 by FabulousDoctor

[Andryah]

Exactly! People are having to pay creds they don't have, or cash, for a chance at getting what they want.

 

What is your point?

 

Every MMO I have ever played.. I have had to pay in game currency for dyes...either to a vendor or to a crafter, or to buy it off the in game auction system. Even in games where they are random drops, you never get the one you want to drop so you end up buying from someone else and selling your random drop.

 

Seriously.. all but the rarest of dyes are cheap on the GTN. Even low level charcaters with limited funds can afford a dye to color a chest piece once they get a modable one they like... and match to chest takes care of the rest. Most dyes are cheaper then the price to unlock your next row on your inventory. Trade crafters are entitled to charge whatever the market will pay IMO.

 

.Why didnt they make it so Black/Black or White/White could be crafted? Oh, because they knew they'd be highly sought after. It's a terrible implementation.

 

So, you are saying that if the crafters had the recipes.. these would drop like flies to a bullfrog? LOL.. get real.. the crafters will soak the playerbase for every credit they can. And as a consumer, I don't blame the crafters.. because the consumer will pay silly high prices for anything they consider to be leet&sweet.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Andryah

[XantosCledwin]

They took the most trivial feature and then over complicated it beyond reason. Then the stamped they word "extra" on it and decided everyone has to play yet another lottery. What a bunch of lying %$@#ers. They couldn't just list them on the market? No, of course not. They had to add them to yet another form of their GARBAGE lottery packs. Also, your subscription is due. Fun right?

 

You realize they didn't have to install the dyes feature to begin with. They only installed it because people were complaining about the fact that this game doesn't have one. That said it is now possible to get colors on your in game clothing that you would never actually see on clothing and armor in the actual movies because of several mitigating factors. And yet you are still complaining about it.

 

If you don't like the lottery aspect of the dyes and you don't want to spend an arm and a leg for a specific color, my recommendation is to level up Artifice. At least that way you can make your own dyes. And except in the case of exclusive dye colors that are only available in future Cartel Packs (As I fully expect some to be only available in future Cartel Packs now) you should be able to craft your own dyes in most of the colors that are otherwise available.

Edited May 19, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[Shoogli]

Just a note, not taking sides, please don't shoot the messenger...

 

About ternary *alterable* colours, I'm not sure the current shader system would allow it. That could be a technical limitation.

I'm not entirely certain of this but I suspect the dye system is tied to the unify colour system in such a way that it will substitute to it but not "add" to it, so to speak.

Unless am mistaken, and I could well be, the unify system only works for 2 colours. I don't remember, but do feel free to point me to a piece a gear that would, that there is any piece that would unify more than 2 colours at a time.

 

Besides there already is a "bug" (something that got me angry a few days ago and had me call the system totally asinine, that is, until we dug a bit more and tried to understand how it could possibly work, but that's another story) that is currently "investigated" and we should have an answer about it I hope during the next week :

 

The fact that single colour dyes break the unify chain/propagation of the other non dyed colour.

 

There are two possible outcomes about this :

 

1) : "it's a bug, chance that we fix it today is 3,720 to 1 ! But for next week : promise !"

 

2) : "is feature, slightly used dye system is work perfectly, please come do business again"

 

For more infos, that maybe are relevant, maybe not, am not sure, do check :

 

http://wiki.heroengine.com/wiki/Character_Design_and_Development

 

And ctrl-f this part :

 

HeroEngine's tinting works by taking an additional tint mask texture

(note for above when you find and read the paragraph : there are up to 4 masks for tinting, but I believe SWTOR only has 2 that can be unified/dyed but that's my feeling, only a guess, I could be wrong)

 

Or also :

 

Dynamic characters can have a variety of texture options. Each part can have multiple texture variations, they can have tinting regions and there can be up to two layers of textures.

 

I'm still trying to figure it all out with my own knowledge of 3D...

 

Hope it helps...

[Anzel]

Some are, some are not. Some come from crafters, some from dye kits from the CM, some from Security Vendor and CE vendor.

 

Regardless.. they are all tradeable and hence can all be purchased from the GTN from other players without spending a single cartel coin. Even the very desireable and rare dyes are well stocked on the GTN.

 

I have an entire cargo hold of dual color dyes I have aquired form the GTN, in colors that work just fine for all my armors. My personal favorites are white/light-orange, Dark-Purple/Light-Blue, and Dark-Blue/Light-Brown. They go great on almost every piece of armor, and I've been snapping them up off the GTN for less then 10K a pop for several days now.

 

Personally, I find the Black/Black to underwhelming..and just use Deep-Blue/Black which can be had for much much lower cost because it is a crafter made dye. Same with White/White. I just go with a White/pick-your-secondary-color and it works great for most needs. But hey.. if people got to have White/White and Black/Black and want to spend north of 1M credits.. more power to them. I have the credits.. but I see them both as a poor investment for results.

 

My point is.. while there are constraints in the dye system.. there is sufficient flexibilty to really change your armor for economical prices in credits, and no compelling need to buy dye kits for the CM. People should play test more, and figure out how to apply the system before complaining IMO.

 

The dye system is TOTAL GARBAGE. It's a trivial feature. It's not "extra" and shouldn't require subscribers to play some crap lottery. GARBAGE.

[Anzel]

You realize they didn't have to install the dyes feature to begin with. They only installed it because people were complaining about the fact that this game doesn't have one. That said it is now possible to get colors on your in game clothing that you would never actually see on clothing and armor in the actual movies because of several mitigating factors. And yet you are still complaining about it.

 

If you don't like the lottery aspect of the dyes and you don't want to spend an arm and a leg for a specific color, my recommendation is to level up Artifice. At least that way you can make your own dyes. And except in the case of exclusive dye colors that are only available in future Cartel Packs (As I fully expect some to be only available in future Cartel Packs now) you should be able to craft your own dyes in most of the colors that are otherwise available.

 

Or... instead of creating some convoluted system of crap they could've just listed out all of the dyes on the market.

Or... instead of over-complicating this to scam their existing customers they could have just put a color picker on the kiosk.

 

Do *you realize that either of those solutions are 100 times simpler and would have made their customers 100 times happier and they would have made 100% the same amount of profit or higher? No, of course you don't. You want to play Forum Warrior and feel tough. Also, your subscription is due. Make sure your CC info is up to date so they can keep taking your money and you can keep buying those lottery tickets.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Anzel

[Andryah]

The dye system is TOTAL GARBAGE. It's a trivial feature. It's not "extra" and shouldn't require subscribers to play some crap lottery. GARBAGE.

 

If you feel it is trivial, then don't use it. If you feel it is trivial, why are you wasting energy on it in the forum?

 

AND... it DOES NOT REQUIRE a player to play the lottery. Stop exaggerating.... all you are doing is discrediting your own comments when you exaggerate.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Andryah

[FabulousDoctor]

Or... instead of creating some convoluted system of crap they could've just listed out all of the dyes on the market.

Or... instead of over-complicating this to scam their existing customers they could have just put a color picker on the kiosk..

 

I vote for a compromise for my sanity - we suggest that every dye also be listed in the market, with the 'regular' dyes costing 200 each (the same as a pack) while the 'rare' ones such as Black/Black and White/White get raised to 800. That way less people will be running around as DARK AND EDGY BLACK WITH BLACK.

 

Leave the lottery for people who actually want a lottery - a chance to get the more expensive dyes, while still getting 'more' of the 'normal' ones than they'd get for the same price, at the cost of not being able to pick. Does that sound good? If so, I'll go make a post in the suggestions forum.

[Andryah]

I vote for a compromise for my sanity - we suggest that every dye also be listed in the market, with the 'regular' dyes costing 200 each (the same as a pack) while the 'rare' ones such as Black/Black and White/White get raised to 800. That way less people will be running around as DARK AND EDGY BLACK WITH BLACK.

 

Leave the lottery for people who actually want a lottery - a chance to get the more expensive dyes, while still getting 'more' of the 'normal' ones than they'd get for the same price, at the cost of not being able to pick. Does that sound good? If so, I'll go make a post in the suggestions forum.

 

GTN market forces are already taking care of this, and doing so much better then your suggestion could ever achieve. There is no need to implement fixed price CCs on dyes in the CM. All that will do is drive up prices in game and make even the common CM dyes out of reach of average players.