why do so few people like to play tanks in this game.

[Bytemite]

Tanking is fun for me, never done it much before, kinda like being in the thick of the fight and checking for broken cc or aggro loss and playing round up the stragglers.

 

But yeah there were times on my guardian on Taris where people would yell at me to take the aggro and I'd be thinking, but I am, I'm taunting every opportunity I can. So far I've been lucky, haven't had too many wipes so I haven't really been blamed for stuff. On the other hand I'm probably not that good and just compensate by overleveling for everything. And I also tend to solo the flashpoints if I can because I figure people will be more likely to get mad if I suck.

 

I don't know the other classes too well because I haven't played them too high, so I usually just ask if anyone has cc if a group looks tough. But beyond that I try not to tell people how to play, and I actually don't even know how to do that marking thing. I usually just ask if they're ccing left, right, or center instead.

[Vyerix]

Most the classes I enjoy and play the most are tanks. My main four I play is a Guardian, Juggernaut, Powertech and Vanguard. I have always preferred an in your face type character. Most times grouping just p***** me off so I just don't bother as much.

[tgokovenant]

I love tanking with my jugg. At the beginning of every FP with randoms I always explain, "cc the purple gear, no aoe til he's the only one left, focus fire on the flame, then the yellow reticle, and let me pull aggro first."

Everyone agrees and every FP runs smooth as silk. So far I haven't had any jerks who either didn't listen or blamed me for a wipe. Then again, I haven't been tanking very long.

[Kitru]

Just wondering why there are so few tanks in the que ?

 

Because there are only 3 tank capable ACs out of 8 for each side, all 3 of which have 2 other perfectly capable DPS specs as well. Purely based on numbers, assuming an absolutely even distribution between all specs and classes (which isn't true, but close enough for gov't work), there will be only 3 tanks for every 18 DPS. In reality, there are even *more* DPS than that for each tank because DPS is simply a more popular role.

 

As to why DPS is a more popular role, several reasons have already been brought up: DPS is a lower stress role that doesn't act as the default leader position or the first person most people blame when something goes wrong; people like to see big numbers, and tanks don't get those; getting tank gear is harder than DPS gear because a lot of the comm gear for tanks is utter rubbish and, unlike healer and DPS gear, doesn't have role interchangeable stats (only tanks use Shield, Abs, and Defense but both healers and DPS use Crit, Surge, Power, and Alac); properly played, a tank puts themself at the most risk, specifically at the mercy of the healer healing effectively (if the healer sucks, you're going to get a massive repair bill while everyone else only has a moderate one); etc.

[gorstram]

This.

 

Also, ive found a tank to be rather boring if everything goes smoothly, the same as with a healer who more often than not starts dpsing to pass the time, but if everything goes right for the dps, they start chaining up some attacks and their dps goes off the charts. It seems a good run depends on tanks and healers being bored while the dps have all the fun.

 

I find this statement to be true. I feel bad for healers, they don't get to experience any content. They're stuck watching health bars the entire time.

[gorstram]

Because there are only 3 tank capable ACs out of 8 for each side, all 3 of which have 2 other perfectly capable DPS specs as well. Purely based on numbers, assuming an absolutely even distribution between all specs and classes (which isn't true, but close enough for gov't work), there will be only 3 tanks for every 18 DPS. In reality, there are even *more* DPS than that for each tank because DPS is simply a more popular role.

 

As to why DPS is a more popular role, several reasons have already been brought up: DPS is a lower stress role that doesn't act as the default leader position or the first person most people blame when something goes wrong; people like to see big numbers, and tanks don't get those; getting tank gear is harder than DPS gear because a lot of the comm gear for tanks is utter rubbish and, unlike healer and DPS gear, doesn't have role interchangeable stats (only tanks use Shield, Abs, and Defense but both healers and DPS use Crit, Surge, Power, and Alac); properly played, a tank puts themself at the most risk, specifically at the mercy of the healer healing effectively (if the healer sucks, you're going to get a massive repair bill while everyone else only has a moderate one); etc.

 

This is also true. Planetary comms don't buy the necessary tanking mods for the classes. Those are made by artificers and cybertechs and they can be quite spendy on the GTN.

[Elyxin]

Plus the pressure of tanking makes your more open to criticism (which in MMO's is not always positive....mot often not).

 

the phrase I've heard and repeated ad naseum since I started tanking years ago is "better have a thick skin to tank". It's rare that a DPS is pointed out in a group run when they forget to hit a skill or two ("Hey, I didn't see you trip that missle proc you just got! ***!). but if a tank misses a taunt, or forgets the stray ranged Mob that is picking on a healer, you can be assured that they will hear about it.

 

there is positive interaction as well. a good group has it's foundation in communication, and as a tank, I love it when DPS and healers point out strays I may have missed...or mark their CC targets...or just say "IM CC'ing silver on the right" but tanks will always invariably get the troll comments too...and when you really actually care about holding threat and protecting the group, it hits you a bit harder when you get those sarcastic comments from a DPS who is probably bored, and dropping the ball himself...but you get the point.

 

And there's also a hidden attraction to those who are tanks who DPS....you're so used to being more aware of the environment, that being DPS is a breeze. as a matter of fact, I find that the best DPS are also Tankers. they know what mob your pulling (because they are paying attention), they know when the healer gets aggro, and pull that mob back to you...etc. it's almost MORE fun being DPS when you've been a tank....it can make it tough at times to want to go back to tanking...

 

Oh yeah...and the lack of tanks is not this game only. In every MMO I've played, tanks are rare. it's not a game specific thing, its the job requirements that push most people away.

[Canmore]

playing a tank in a PUG is no fun ,there is always some moron who wants to ruin your evening because they think they know everything about it .

 

my tank flash points for guildies and ops for my guild , the harassment in pugs is just aint worth it

[grallmate]

There are a number of factors, both psychological, communal and mechanical.

 

Psychologically, tanks are looked to as leaders in a run. This is largely based in the mechanical roots of the trinity as the tank pulls the mobs and controls how they are burned down. Good tanks will develop a pattern they like followed, for example, if CC is used, I like the outlying mobs CCed while I group the rest up in the middle well clear of the CCed ones for AoE. Tanks also put their lives (literally) in the hands of the healer, and some fights you live or die by their skill or whim. That's not a comforting thought.

 

Good tanking is also remarkably easy for other players to mess up. The best tanks group mobs up so they can be easily controlled and burned down quickly. In this game, knock backs are EVERYWHERE and players (especially Consular ACs) love to knock back all my nicely grouped mobs. Conversely, a ludicrous number of pulls have control affects they subject the tank to; be it knock backs, stuns, slows or roots. This is beyond annoying as a tank and something the other roles largely get to ignore.

 

The community aspect of the problem comes in the form of abuse tanks (particularly sub par ones) are subject to. Tanks are right at the front and everyone can see when the tank makes a mistake. Some players will kindly highlight the mistake and suggest a method for dealing with it next time, other will simply abuse the tank. In my experience, the ones that abuse the tank (or healer or a DPS) are remarkably bad players themselves. I had one Sentinel yelling at the healer after every pull for not CCing while he continued to leap onto the only elite (marked with cog) in each pull.

 

Mechanically, the number of tanks simply doesn't scale as you increase group size. In a 4 man group there is 1 tank. In most 8 man Operations there are 2 tanks but one is relegated to off tanking on several fights. In a 16 man Operation there is usually only a need for 2 tanks although some fights require a third. Past 16 players you start adding more DPS and Healers but there is no need for more tanks. If there was a boss that required 50 players, the number of tanks would still be in the low single figures (less than 4) yet the number of DPS would be 35 or more.

[Valdrius]

An easy way to solve the problem is increase the group maximum to 5, add a bit of extra health to the NPCs in H4, FPs and Ops and more DPS classes can join in the fun. Edited May 10, 2013 by Valdrius

[grallmate]

An easy way to solve the problem is increase the group maximum to 5, add a bit of extra health to the NPCs in H4, FPs and Ops and more DPS classes can join in the fun.

 

1. No thanks. Try treating tanks and healers with respect, don't ninja gear and respond when they type in chat then more of them might queue.

 

2. It would be more complicated than that. Most AoE healing abilities hit 4 players (or 8 for Salv), those would need to be adjusted. Further CD and duration for healing abilities would require adjustment to allow healers to remain as effective healing 5 players as they currently are with 4.

 

Similarly, encounters that require 4 players to do things (Sav-Rak, The Shroud, Colicoid War Games) or encounters designed around the group of 4 like the entire phase 2 of the TFB, Operator IX or City Infiltration in S&V would have to be largely redesigned.

[Valdrius]

I didn't say complete, i said easy. I could just as easily work out the maths for such a change, but there would be no real need. Although mistakenly i did also specify ops, which was not intentional.

 

In either case my post was to illustrate how having 5 man groups would be beneficial.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Valdrius

[Kitru]

I didn't say complete, i said easy. I could just as easily work out the maths for such a change, but there would be no real need. Although mistakenly i did also specify ops, which was not intentional.

 

In either case my post was to illustrate how having 5 man groups would be beneficial.

 

It would solve the problem of population disparity to some extent (not completely, but to some extent; there would still be substantially more DPS than "needed"; the difference would just be smaller), but it would require a lot more work to implement it effectively than simply increasing group size (which would necessitate increasing Ops size as well, since Ops are comprised of linked Groups): every piece of group content would need to be tweaked to account for 5 man groups. As grall pointed out, it's not just a case of increasing enemy HP/pack size; many fights are explicitly balanced around a specific group size, not to mention how screwed you'd be if you got an FP like Cademimu with 3 melee DPS.

[Valdrius]

1. No thanks. Try treating tanks and healers with respect, don't ninja gear and respond when they type in chat then more of them might queue.

 

2. It would be more complicated than that. Most AoE healing abilities hit 4 players (or 8 for Salv), those would need to be adjusted. Further CD and duration for healing abilities would require adjustment to allow healers to remain as effective healing 5 players as they currently are with 4.

 

Similarly, encounters that require 4 players to do things (Sav-Rak, The Shroud, Colicoid War Games) or encounters designed around the group of 4 like the entire phase 2 of the TFB, Operator IX or City Infiltration in S&V would have to be largely redesigned.

 

1. Why do you assume I'm a ninja. If that's you opinion on all DPS' then its clear you're the one with the problem.

 

2. The changes you suggest can be easily done, in fact adjusting the damage the NPCs do in addition to their health would solve the healing required, so no changes to any CD ability or otherwise would be required.

 

3. I've not done any ops you've mentioned but i won't take your word for it. As for Coliciod War Games, it's a simple puzzle which can be easily adjusted, or done with 5 players without any changes made.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Valdrius

[grallmate]

1. Why do you assume I'm a ninja. If that's you opinion on all DPS' then its clear you're the one with the problem.

 

2. The changes you suggest can be easily done, in fact adjusting the damage the NPCs do in addition to their health would solve the healing required, so no changes to any CD ability or otherwise would be required.

 

3. I've not done any ops you've mentioned but i won't take your word for it. As for Coliciod War Games, it's a simple puzzle which can be easily adjusted, or done with 5 players without any changes made.

 

1. I didn't call you a ninja. However, the general consensus is that the worst behaved players are typically the DPS. Tanking and healing tend to attract the more mature and respectful players while DPS has the lowest common denominator. That isn't to say all DPS are terrible, but the worst players are almost universally DPS. Improve that reputation and more tanks and healers may stick their necks out. Alternatively, provide a reason to queue after they have completed their daily.

 

For reference, I queue for randoms on my tank 2-3 times a week (sometimes all in one day if I'm bored). Not all that frequent but I do my share. I level most of my tanks and healers through mostly PUG FPs and I tank endgame Ops. I rarely have a bad experience with PUGs (KBs and DPS pulling aside) but I when I do, I remember it. That said, I have enough demand for my tanking skills between my guild and my friends list that the only times I need to PUG are during the day when no one is on. If you doubt anything I've said I direct you to that link in my signature.

 

2. Adjusting NPC damage isn't the only factor. Refreshing SRM on 4 players is pretty easy, gives you a couple of GCDs IIRC between refreshing the last player and needing to refresh the first player again. Tweaking that balance would make Scoundrel or Op group healing feel much clunkier. That's just 1 example, not to mention (as I already did) all AoE heals would need to be readjusted to 5 players. Even cleansing would need to be rethought, imagine Lorrick with 3 Sentinels who can't move out of the stupid quickly.

 

3. Sav-Rak would be trivialized by a 5th player and rather boring for that player as well. Encounters that require players to hit consoles at each wall would be the same. Hell even the post-SX Heroics would need to be redesigned.

 

A large number of encounters in Op would also need to be re-thought for a 5 player base group. Operator IX is 4 colours geared towards a DPS and Healer or Tank on each colour. Change the group ratios and that is thrown out, either 2 players do nothing or the entire encounter has to be re-adjusted. TFB Phase 2 has 16 platforms in it. Change the base group to 5 and you need to add 4 more platforms which requires a redesign of the map, same deal with Infernal Council in EV. Hell, you'd even need to look at Stormcaller and decide if you wanted to scale Double Destruction up to Triple Destruction. It is not a simple solution and it isn't just a matter of rebalancing content. BW would need to completely REDESIGN some content.

 

Failing to adjust Operations to 10/20 players to match a new FP group won't work either since the difference between an FP group and an Ops group would be 1 more of each role. That exacerbates the mechanical difference I outlined earlier with roles failing to scale proportionally as group size increases.

 

Really, the only way to easily reduce queue times is to get more tanks (and to a lesser degree, healers) in queue. How would you do that?

A - Increase the number of total tanks.

B - Provide incentives to tanks to queue multiple times.

 

A is a community problem. That isn't something BW can do without making tanks a FOTM. Dual spec is not the Hail Mary people claim it is here. Nor is cross server GF. Even then, if you give people a reason to roll tank (other than instant queues) you'll end up with a lot of terribad tanks.

 

B is something BW could do. Hell, reducing the daily lockout for GF comms would solve that problem right off the bat... Until all the tanks hit their weekly comm limit. Giving tanks or healers a goody bag might help. Basically, you either give tanks and healers a way to gear up faster through GF, which gets them queuing more until they're geared and then it drops off. Or you give them vanity or collectible items or cash to try get them to do it. Cash would work reasonably well for those struggling players out there and vanity items might get some. Perhaps even a small stipend of Cartel Coins (20?) when queuing as a tank or healer would get people doing it. There are options, but it basically amounts to bribing tanks or healers to queue.

 

TL;DR - Simply increasing the group size to 5 isn't as simple as you think. No solution is simple.

[Necroscop]

I use to tank few FP every day but with new com limits by Thursday I’m cap on all comes so then there is nothing I can gain from FP. Credits are bad, dps do not want to wait for me to biochem killed pets giving me lots of grief when I try to collect all biochem loot. So why I would queue on my tank?

I just move to my dps and make queuing for all dps even longer, I know lots of tank who do the same so BW by implementing this cap and DPS who do not let tanks gain something from FP are removing tanks from GF. If I want to biochem I will 2 man athis with my friend or do it with guild.

If BW would remove cap on comes this would bring lots of tanks back as many of us tanks use tanks to gear up our alts. Or at list give more credits from HM FP, tanks need something if I get nothing and have to deal with dps starting every combat and then complaining that I do not hold agro I need something.

What would be even better make collecting mats much faster that is now.

As to ops I see lots of problems with tanks there too but what tank can do if you can tank each opp only once a week, I would not mind going on my tank 2 times a week for same opp as new opp pay nice credits so even if I’m not there for gear I would go for comes (if there were no or bigger limit on them) and credits.

All need to remember that good tanks will cap there come limits in 2-3 days as people are fighting for them to tank there runs. So GF its not losing any tanks but good tanks.

[HaoZhao]

I find this statement to be true. I feel bad for healers, they don't get to experience any content. They're stuck watching health bars the entire time.

 

Everyone watches health bars. DPS and tanks watch enemy health bars and healers watch your health bars. We don't miss out on anything.

[Marb]

This game has no learning curve when it comes to tanking, you are thrown in the deep end by queuing for a random. This game should do a better job of drilling the basics into people before they hit the level cap. For example, no average "just hit level 50" tank is going to know how taunt really works just from the tooltip, which is *essential* concrete knowledge. Min maxing tank stats is perfectly acceptable to be relegated to out of game resources, but learning how to taunt is as essential as learning how to to cast a heal on a player from the raidframe.

 

This is also an area that the mmo genre at large needs to improve upon.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Marb

[Khevar]

This game has no learning curve when it comes to tanking, you are thrown in the deep end by queuing for a random. This game should do a better job of drilling the basics into people before they hit the level cap. For example, no average "just hit level 50" tank is going to know how taunt really works just from the tooltip, which is *essential* concrete knowledge. Min maxing tank stats is perfectly acceptable to be relegated to out of game resources, but learning how to taunt is as essential as learning how to to cast a heal on a player from the raidframe.

 

This is also an area that the mmo genre at large needs to improve upon.

I suppose it depends on how you level your tank.

 

If you do 10-49 in dps spec with a healing pet while overleveled, you're not going to know how to tank.

 

If you do 10-49 in tank spec with a dps companion and stay at or below recommended levels, you end up learning the basics well enough to move to harder content.

[Treeba]

This is probably one of the most tank unfriendly games out there. Some super cool guy thought it would be great fun to load every FP with 20,000 trash mobs AND THEN to give each trash mob a knockback, slow, stun, root, threat drop, etc.

 

I still tank on a couple characters, but purely for the queue time.

 

It would help a little if they would allow cross-server queuing for LFG/WZs. Especially for those who play in the off hours.

[Helig]

This is probably one of the most tank unfriendly games out there. Some super cool guy thought it would be great fun to load every FP with 20,000 trash mobs AND THEN to give each trash mob a knockback, slow, stun, root, threat drop, etc.

 

I still tank on a couple characters, but purely for the queue time.

 

It would help a little if they would allow cross-server queuing for LFG/WZs. Especially for those who play in the off hours.

I concur. Much less of an issue on my Vanguard (Hold the Line is amazing), and even Shadow, but post-2.0, it's very frustrating on my Guardian because I can't use Unremitting in Soresu anymore.

 

But I don't agree that ToR is one of the most tank-unfriendly games. Has issues, but nothing beyond quality of life annoyances.

[truevalon]

ToR is a very tank unfriendly game. I took cybertech while levelling and always kept my armor up to date with the newest blue armorings and mods. However for enhancements there were no tanking enhancements before the early 40s and those where of a lower level than the dps enhancements.

 

Also in FP's there are often pulls with mobs spread out in such a manner that it is hard for a tank to grab them all. AOE tanking at early to mid level was a nightmare as a guardian due to the low amount of aoe abilities. Before getting cyclone slash in the early 30is and guardian slash at 40-45 holding aggro on packs of mobs could be a major challenge. And dont even get me started on the amount of knockbacks on pull in this game...

 

In ToR the threat magrin is very low. I believe it was 60% bonus from tanking stance at release, later buffed to 100%. Compared to other games this is still very low and tbh as tank threat scales very poorly with gear I wouldnt be suprised if eventually dps'ers will outscale tank threat even on single target.

 

All that being said I wouldnt pick a different role. Tanking is what I do.

Edited May 13, 2013 by truevalon

[dcgregorya]

You probably dont find tanks because tanks get tired of hearing **** about not keeping aggro or sucking... then they go do the same flashpoint with their guild without a hiccup.

 

/thread

 

This is the exact reason. "You're running too fast, you're running too slow, why didn't you take aggro after I pulled two groups, you're not tanky enough, blah blah blah". Then you go run it with your guild and are done in 30 minutes and swear off pugging for life.

[Aramyth]

I enjoy tanking, but I personally find tanking in this game to be strange.

 

I come from FFXI and LoTRO where your taunts are essentially spammable but generate less threat over time. I don't really like the whole "one aoe taunt" that you need to be mindful of mechanic. It's just not my thing.

[paowee]

there are more tanks here than other games! well aside from WOW. q's in that game are fast