BlueShiftRecall Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 As a german wow player and youtuber(his name's Barlow) once said: "90% of all lfg groups are unspectacular. You say hi, buff the group, kill all bosses and bid farewell. It's the other 10% that remain in ones memory" Awesome quote and very very true. Over this long 2xp weekend I've had quite a few bad runs on KDY but the majority of them were very quick with good competent players where we sped through with no issues at all, but where's the fun in talking about the good runs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobFredJohn Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) I wasnt meant to be a tank at first place. I just want to leave dps to make his job while i getting agro with the elite or boss with mind maze and do some damage the same time. It was a flashpoint not a programmable ops so it was a pug. But from the other hand the elite goes down really quick as i made some damage at first place and we have to keep in mind that if a dps with light armor agree to be a tank he must be protected especially on those levels. A number of problems, the main ones I put in bold red. 1 - the: If you are going to rely on taunts to hold aggro on "the" (singluar) enemy, you might as well have not said anything about tanking, don't bother taunting and just dps. 2 - flashpoint: we will come back to this after I point out 3 3 - expecting the healer to carry you: If you are going to queue as tank with dps gear in dps spec thats not the healers fault returning to 2. Its a 60 fp. Turning up as dps then offering to tank is silly in the first place. But to then run in and tunnel-vision 1 elite while everything else rips the healer to shreads, then complain about a lack of heals is rediculous. You state that you need protection because your a dps in light armour trying to tank. Combat technique has +130% armour for a reason, the tank discipline has DCD's for a reason, tanks stack def, shield and absorb for a reason. If you want to rock up as a dps then run round taunting then thats your problem. Though as I said in my previous response, the guy should have asked you to switch to tanking rather than kick you. Edited February 17, 2015 by BobFredJohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venomlash Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 As i said we was 2 healers and 2 dps and no tank. I just accept to be a tank just for attracting agro on me and nothing else. I wasnt meant to be a tank at first place. I just want to leave dps to make his job while i getting agro with the elite or boss with mind maze and do some damage the same time. It was a flashpoint not a programmable ops so it was a pug. They talk to me and agree to be a tank cause i like running a little.But from the other hand the elite goes down really quick as i made some damage at first place and we have to keep in mind that if a dps with light armor agree to be a tank he must be protected especially on those levels. As you said they could clear it out and change roles with no problem. Again was a single fp that took 20 mins tou finish it. Dude, you were specced Infiltration. Quite possibly the only DPS spec that is a WORSE facetank than Infiltration is Scrapper. (Both are squishy specs that need to be behind their targets to DPS properly and have almost no AoE, but Infiltration at least has a taunt available to it and slightly better DCDs.) Like other people have said, this was a proper flashpoint at endgame, not a tactical. You really do need a proper (trinity) group to complete them, and nobody should queue as a role unless they're willing to respec/regear as needed to actually fill it. (And either you or the other DPS must have queued as a tank, or with both roles selected.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JouerTue Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 so two days ago we decided to give a shot at the new hm fp. 2 of us on our main dps toons, one on his main healer and one on his new tank toon. zero wipes zero issues, we tried,failing, the bonus BOR boss and since we didn't know that, if you reach the next boss, you won't have to walk ages we skipped it. yesterday i go with my main healer, the tank was always the same, comms geared and mid experienced, we get two dps.....they both were totally unable to step out of cyrcles and push some decent numbers. at the final boss they say to my buddy tank to not tank adds that they will care. lol. they just tunneled one, so everytime we got the more than 2 option we had someone dropping and a wipe on the next wave of adds. and this when both of them managed to survive the cross..i mean i saw clearly the guardian dying on the cross to land 6/6 MS.. one dropped, popped another bad, same plot and i rage quit.. again a ravagers pug. at last boss after a successfull run, we have a wipe since again the 1337 dps can't stop during ruugar stun phase..at next try suddenly all the players who got drops start slacking horribly( we had 1 token policy) and starting to flame each other and we wipe again. i say that's not polite towards the others that helped to get there and still have to roll on loot, got hate whispers and ignores :rak_02: guess when i'll tank again a pug you bastards, you can rot in general ''lfm tank'' for what i care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JouerTue Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Dude, you were specced Infiltration. Quite possibly the only DPS spec that is a WORSE facetank than Infiltration is Scrapper. (Both are squishy specs that need to be behind their targets to DPS properly and have almost no AoE, but Infiltration at least has a taunt available to it and slightly better DCDs.) Like other people have said, this was a proper flashpoint at endgame, not a tactical. You really do need a proper (trinity) group to complete them, and nobody should queue as a role unless they're willing to respec/regear as needed to actually fill it. (And either you or the other DPS must have queued as a tank, or with both roles selected.) and about this regearing point..after personal experience, you just need to have a shield and respec, FP are not so demanding. also i suggest to have a alternative set of implants ear and relics with commendations, those are useful procs(relics) and the others have a typical comms hp pool that will definetly help a respec'd tank. but 1. shield... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sotmax Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) and about this regearing point..after personal experience, you just need to have a shield and respec, FP are not so demanding. also i suggest to have a alternative set of implants ear and relics with commendations, those are useful procs(relics) and the others have a typical comms hp pool that will definetly help a respec'd tank. but 1. shield... I just start playing with different relics and implants. hope to find the best solution(s) and be able to swap them depending on combat. You both have a very good point on that . Edited February 18, 2015 by Sotmax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidelicatessen Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I just start playing with different relics and implants. hope to find the best solution(s) and be able to swap them depending on combat. You both have a very good point on that . Sounds like a good start, but *definitely* pick up a shield. Field Respec might be a wise investment, as well (only costs 200k, which at max level is not that much). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josephinec Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Had an interesting experience last night with my Shadow. She did Mandalorian Raiders for the first time, and I went ahead and stated that I hadn't done this FP before. It was my Shadow as tank, a Scoundrel and a Sentinel as DPS and a Commando as healer. Right off the bat, we have issues because the healer 1) isn't healing except in between fights and 2) keeps dying. I died twice before the first boss. So we get to the first boss (the Beast Master). My heart sinks as I realize I can't taunt the Salky Hounds to me to defend the DPS. But I decide it would be best to wear them down first. So we start fighting. Commando heals a bit, then dies. My heart sinks. But good news! The Scoundrel is a Sawbones, so she healed me and the Sentinel for the remainder of the fight. The Commando quit the group and was replaced by a Sage doing DPS. It was all pretty good from there, except I got knocked back by a droid and killed by another droid on our way to the boarding party. When we got to the boarding party, the Scoundrel explained what order to kill them in(which I can't remember now). That was a fairly easy battle because her healing was so good. We zoom through to the last boss, the Clan Varad patriarch(can't remember his name), and the Sage tells us to wait a second. Awesomely, she explained how to defeat him. Varad will jump around the room, making you chase after him. After each jump, he will summon two strong turrets. Get the turrets down. Simple as that. It happens four times. So it was a mixed run last night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidelicatessen Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 My heart sinks as I realize I can't taunt the Salky Hounds to me to defend the DPS. But I decide it would be best to wear them down first. So we start fighting. Commando heals a bit, then dies. My heart sinks. But good news! The Scoundrel is a Sawbones, so she healed me and the Sentinel for the remainder of the fight. The tank should not even touch the Salky Hounds on that fight. Pull the boss over to the corner and apply taunt every time you lose agro on him (you'll lose agro every time Taunt is off of cooldown, guaranteed). DPS and heals should be focusing down the Salky Hounds and keeping them away from the boss. They only join you once both Salky Hounds have been dropped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbfhl Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 The tank should not even touch the Salky Hounds on that fight. Pull the boss over to the corner and apply taunt every time you lose agro on him (you'll lose agro every time Taunt is off of cooldown, guaranteed). DPS and heals should be focusing down the Salky Hounds and keeping them away from the boss. They only join you once both Salky Hounds have been dropped. Yep. Pro tip: if something has the Untauntable buff, it's not your job. Pro tip: Check things like debuffs and buffs; most important thing in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Dogs will do a lot more damage when they are near the boss (red circle). So you really don't want them anywhere near the boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLynkes Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) Okay, so a nice easy run through Korriban tactical via group finder for some quick comms and conquest points. Nothing at all to worry about at 55, and now at 60 you can do it in your sleep. But we have this guy along who keeps apologising for his poor performance. The other three of us in chat say we hadn't noticed any poor performance, everything is fine. He explains he is trying out a new discipline, doesn't quite get it yet, can't work out a good rotation, and is starting to feel he doesn't really like it. Seems to me that this is a good place to be trying such things out, as we really aren't ever in any danger of wiping, and nobody has a problem with this. But as we progress he continues to complain in chat, berating both himself and the discipline he's trying out. It's really, really odd as we aren't having any problems with the flashpoint at all. Then at one point, in a hectic moment where we're beset with tons of trash, he suddenly dies. I missed how it happened but he immediately quits the group. There was never any possibility that we would wipe, and nobody had had a bad word to say to him. The only one giving him a hard time was himself. We pondered it for a moment before moving on and finishing the flashpoint (we were rather near the end, anyway). I just found it strange that he was like a one-man bad flashpoint, determined to play both the role of the clueless noob and the arsehats who give him grief over it. All the time the rest of us were carrying on nicely without any trouble at all. Very, very odd. Edited February 19, 2015 by PLynkes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) Ok, you get your Orbital Strike, Plasma Probe going and even Interrogation Probe on one or two enemies. Nothing to worry about? Assassin tank runs in and opens with Overload. Or even better tank kites boss away from your Plasma Probe + Orbital Strike. I know, you can spam Orbital Strike as Engineering but spamming Plasma Probe isn't good for your energy management since you're constantly dancing on the edge anyway. Is it just me or is this the new cool thing to do? Edited February 19, 2015 by Halinalle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LydMekk Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) Is it just me or is this the new cool thing to do? Nope. Only bad tanks with no spatial awareness for his surroundings and his group is doing that. Even include all mouthbreathing, windowlicking sins from KDY Academy with overload on CD. Stuff dies so much faster to AOEs that all members in a group should try to make the most of it. Overload does THE most dmg of all aoe's in game yo... Edited February 19, 2015 by LydMekk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobFredJohn Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) Right off the bat, we have issues because the healer 1) isn't healing except in between fights and 2) keeps dying. Possibly some issues with aggro there. If the healer is dying hes probably getting shot. If hes getting shot and is rather clueless he will stand there healing himself. That might explain the lack of heals on you. If the healer is being shot, is healing himself and nobody else has noticed theres not going to be much group healing. Hence why he would be better off mentioning it in chat rather than continuing to never heal anybody else. Having said that only clueless healers never call for someone to peel, I am fine with my merc healer (mirror to his mando) being attacked as it can handle 1 or 2 enemies. This guy though clearly couldn't manage and should have mentioned it. Edited February 19, 2015 by BobFredJohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josephinec Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Yep. Pro tip: if something has the Untauntable buff, it's not your job. Pro tip: Check things like debuffs and buffs; most important thing in the game. Now I know that. Thanks! Did Athiss with my Guardian doing DPS duty last night. Ley'arsha is one of the easiest bosses IMO, but the Beast of Vodal Kressh....yikes. My PUG got kicked around, then the Sage healer suggested this: If I understand her suggestion correctly, she had our tank pull the Beast into a sheltered spot a bit down from where you meet him. If you're facing the Beast, the shelter is to your right; it looks like a niche by the first temple where you fight Ley'arsha and friends. Our Guardian tank pulled the Beast while the other Guardian DPS and I went after the worshippers. The Sage healed while the two other Guardians fought the Beast. I stood guard at the entrance to the second temple where the adds spawn. As soon as they appeared, the other DPS and I went after them. They never reached our healer, and the Beast stayed away from us, where he would get in the way of the adds. After the last round of adds, I joined everyone in defeating the Beast. He did one of his stuns, but within a minute after the last round of adds, we killed him. It's nice to see there are some people with brains in PUGs. That being said, I'm still not sure if I want to do KDY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryuku-sama Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 If I understand her suggestion correctly, she had our tank pull the Beast into a sheltered spot a bit down from where you meet him. If you're facing the Beast, the shelter is to your right; it looks like a niche by the first temple where you fight Ley'arsha and friends. Our Guardian tank pulled the Beast while the other Guardian DPS and I went after the worshippers. The Sage healed while the two other Guardians fought the Beast. I stood guard at the entrance to the second temple where the adds spawn. As soon as they appeared, the other DPS and I went after them. They never reached our healer, and the Beast stayed away from us, where he would get in the way of the adds. After the last round of adds, I joined everyone in defeating the Beast. He did one of his stuns, but within a minute after the last round of adds, we killed him. Nice tactic but completely unuseful. Your tank could have simply tanked the boss in the doorframe behind the boss where the adds spawn. When the adds spawn, wait a GCD then use your AoE (Smash for Guardian). THis will ensure aggro until they are dead if he keeps his AoE rotation for like 3 GCDs. And the doorframe makes the boss KB completeely a non issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawtravel Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Ok, you get your Orbital Strike, Plasma Probe going and even Interrogation Probe on one or two enemies. Nothing to worry about? Assassin tank runs in and opens with Overload. So let me get this straight. YOU (assume a DPSer) get 3 attacks going and THEN the tank opens? Hmmm, could be the tank, who really should be opening the fight, is sending you a message by kicking mobs out of your AOE. You think? I'm not saying. I'm just saying.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torvai Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 So let me get this straight. YOU (assume a DPSer) get 3 attacks going and THEN the tank opens? Hmmm, could be the tank, who really should be opening the fight, is sending you a message by kicking mobs out of your AOE. You think? I'm not saying. I'm just saying.... When a dps opens a fight it's even easier for the tank to hold threat, since taunt gives you threat based on the currently highest(which in this case is a dps). And while I agree that a tank should start a fight it's still no reason to kick, pull or kite one or multiple mobs out of aoes or a dps'ers range. It's just stupid. You're unnecessarily prolong the fight with this nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawtravel Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 When a dps opens a fight it's even easier for the tank to hold threat, since taunt gives you threat based on the currently highest(which in this case is a dps). And while I agree that a tank should start a fight it's still no reason to kick, pull or kite one or multiple mobs out of aoes or a dps'ers range. It's just stupid. You're unnecessarily prolong the fight with this nonsense. I totally agree. Hell, tanking 101 is to wait till DPS drops their huge attacks and THEN taunt. Free threat + 10%! I was just offering an explanation for what seems to be inexplicable. Consider that Assasins also have great AOE attacks, and if the Assasin is the tank, then scattering the mobs with Overload would actually adversely effect the tank more than the rest. So, why would a tank do that? Either the tank needs to L2P, or the tank has a reason. I wonder what happened after these openings. Did the tank Overload the mobs asunder then gather them up and drop Death from Above to get the threat back? Honesty, if tank Overloads and then the party wipes, well then tank is no good. But if after the first 15 seconds of a fight, including the annoying Overload, the tank aggros all mobs and no one dies, well then the tank is doing their job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venomlash Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 When a dps opens a fight it's even easier for the tank to hold threat, since taunt gives you threat based on the currently highest(which in this case is a dps). That kind of thinking is illustrative of people thinking too much about numbers and not enough about tactics. (You know, how DPS sometimes sit in floorcandy and continue their rotation in the name of meter-padding, and then the healer gets sick of spam-healing them through the floorcandy and lets them die, and then it's a wipe.) You want to let a DPS pull in the name of having more opening threat? REALLY? First off, if the DPS is generating more threat than the tank, your tanking needs work. You get the max threat plus 10% (30% if outside of 10m range) whether or not you are the current max threat! So I'm wondering why you think it makes sense to let the DPS get a threat cushion on you before you pull, when you could just as easily pull before he does and use your taunt to fluff your own threat rather than his. Secondly, think about how this works when there are multiple enemies, especially if they are melee. Suddenly half the room is chasing the DPS, and now your positioning is all screwed up. On my Shadow, I'm a competent tank generally capable of rounding up adds, but my biggest pet peeve with DPS is when they pull early and force me to scramble around laboriously throwing AoEs at every corner of the room in order to pick up the mobs, rather than just letting me position things properly. (A lovely example would be the doggies in HM Cademimu or Mandalorian Raiders, which leap to faraway targets, meaning that if a rDPS pulls early, suddenly the three silver mobs are 20m away from where I just was and are currently eating the Sage's face.) Teal deer: LET THE TANK PULL, YA GOOF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelefantos Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 ... It's not like most tanks would even bother taunting back if a DPS opened the fight. Nevermind the fact that there are and for a long time have been pulls that can completely maul a DPS pulling first even if the tank bothers with taunting (5 droids in Athiss before the 1st boss, Mandalorian doggies). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryuku-sama Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 This is a dumb argument. Orbital takes almost 2 GCD's to prepares. If the tank can't pull inside these GCDs while the big green AoE is on the ground.. He is dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobFredJohn Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) It's not like most tanks would even bother taunting back if a DPS opened the fight. Nevermind the fact that there are and for a long time have been pulls that can completely maul a DPS pulling first even if the tank bothers with taunting (5 droids in Athiss before the 1st boss, Mandalorian doggies). I second this. If you pull it you tank it, if the dps ends up dead from pulling first maybe that might just suggest there is a reason there are tanks in a group. _________________________ Example from yesterday. I was on my vang tank in FE SM. There is a sage healer, and 2 slingers. We get started and it becomes apparent the healer wants to pull first with force quake every time. This results in alot of deaths for the healer, until they finally decide to speak up and tell me I am not tanking. I say pretty much what I did above, "you pull you tank, if you cant tank, don't pull." For the rest of the mission There are no more issues with aggro (I lose a silver droid to one of the slingers in the pull before the 2 droids that switch invincibility boss, but grab it back quick with a stock strike). It seems the healer wants to continue his tirade on how bad my tanking is, however without him pulling first and sensible dps (following kill order by killing 1 standard enemy while I get my aggro cushion up) I rarely lose aggro so he seems to be struggling trying to find something to complain about. So he decides to complain about my "squishyness" and says he wont heal a tank who cant look after themselves because he doesn't want to carry me. So for the next few pulls I get no heals, I end each pull with above 80% hp. The healer quits group without a word, I pull out elara and complete. Edited February 20, 2015 by BobFredJohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 The healer quits group without a word, I pull out elara and complete. Elara is awesome. We 3 manned (+ my 192 comp geared Elara) Rakata few days ago. Awesome run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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