The weird people you meet in Group Finder.

[tomatosquish]

More fun in weekend flashpoints. I have a rule to avoid them over the weekends... Because too many daffy pugs about.

 

I have Voss and I am sick of Makeb so I thought "Hey... Lets do KDY at 2am to finish off this level..."

 

We actually had a normal group. A tank, 2x DPS (including me) and a healer. Well the tank was qued as a tank, but not using the right support cylinder... Not using any actually. The heals was a OP but not spec heal, just qued that way. When I asked why they said both said "Because it makes them pop faster".... Wonderufl. But it doesn't matter right its KDY so who cares?

 

Well the other DPS was new to KDY, probably the only other smart one in the room as he stood back and waited instead of lunging off at whatever mob. The healer didn't heal which wouldn't have been a problem except the tank... Well he was a special kind of daffy. While the three of us were attacking one group he would go pull in another. While we were cleaning up his mess he would go pull another. While we were busy cleaning up that mess he would go pull another. And he would then throw a fit when he died... But nobody was willing to vote him out and I became the jerk for wanting to get rid of him because I was sick of being at like 5% hp.

 

Not sure what the room is called but for the second half we had the one where you have to go to 4 different rooms and destroy missiles/bombs whatever. I managed to tow them along in the fastest route until we got to the last objective (killing hte eltie) at which point I stopped at the entrance to his room and noticed nobody was behind me. I suddenly went into combat and checked my map, see them clearing out the hallway to the room we started in.

 

Though fine, whatever told them wrong way and went back to waiting for them. After a few minutes I checked my map again and saw them heading in my direction in the final room. A few minutes later one of them says "*** how do we finish?" Check my map again and see them back in the 2nd room. The trio had apparently been running in circles the whole time...

 

I told them to come to me I am standing in front of it and they asked where I was... I said to check their map where the tank that isnt a tank promptly replied with "Maps dont work in flashpoints idiot".... All told that run took 45 minutes... Way too long for KDY.

 

Next day playing my trooper (healer) and get in on Cadmandeu or whatever its called. I notice our tank is undergeared horribly but figured what the hell I am geared right I should be able to keep him up provided he is a real tank... He wasn't, but at least used his tank stance. Furthermore about 1/3 of the way in he got mad at me for doing nothing but spamming heals and not doing dps. So I said fine. Quit healing him and first trash mob he jumped into dropped him in about 4 seconds... Then he was hollaring at me for letting him die.

[leehambly]

What dps is doing? Why aren't they killing them?

It's after all their job. It's only two or three GCDs for dps.

 

When I'm dps I make sure that these happen:

- if someone is stupid enough to hit healer = dead

- if someone is stupid enough to "broadcast": "I'm a healer" = dead

 

It was a facetious post to a certain degree... and yeah I agree, but I was just pointing out why a tank might end up focusing on a single standard/weak mob at the expense of a higher level one to actually kill it, rather than just taunt it

 

I.e.: as a consequence of other things not going well.

Edited December 1, 2014 by leehambly

[Halinalle]

I think in some cases, it might be because a number of dps specs, typically the ones that do the most damage on the dummy, are just no good at killing weak enemies.

 

Those are best at killing weaker enemies because you don't have to spend 50% fight killing them.

[BobFredJohn]

I think in some cases a number of dps specs are just no good at killing weak enemies.

 

I do sometimes have issues on my sniper where something starts attacking the healer, my followthrough is on CD, so is my sos, my grenade is rather useless and I end up having to decide if I should spam overload shot hoping that I crit and grab aggro or do I let the healer get shot for 1.5 seconds while I cast a snipe which I can chase up with a follow through, killing the enemy.

 

There are certainly some dps classes that just aren't as well suited to pulling off the healer. Of course like you said thats no excuse, but I do sometimes use it as a reason when the healer says "I was getting shot, what were you lot doing" and I end up writing back some comment along the lines of "casting a snipe on the enemy shooting you.

 

Yeah I know I should be ripping off the healer, but its not going to be instant.

Edited December 1, 2014 by BobFredJohn

[leehambly]

I do sometimes have issues on my sniper ... Yeah I know I should be ripping off the healer, but its not going to be instant.

 

Why as a dps would it be your job to rip from the healer? Am I missing something?

[Darkelefantos]

Why as a dps would it be your job to rip from the healer? Am I missing something?

It's the DPS's job to take/kill mobs the tank doesn't/can't keep away from the healer as fast as possible. Shouldn't happen all that often with a decent tank, but when it does, the DPS have a responsibility to keep the healer alive.

[leehambly]

It's the DPS's job to take/kill mobs the tank doesn't/can't keep away from the healer as fast as possible. Shouldn't happen all that often with a decent tank, but when it does, the DPS have a responsibility to keep the healer alive.

 

I am fine with the "kill" part, but not the "take" part.

 

To just randomly rip aggro from the healer because you think the healer is better able to heal themselves, you AND the tank rather than themselves and the tank, is just well... I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you haven't played healer then, right?

If its a major problem, as a healer I'll cc the damned thing. Unless its a specific mechanic, the DPS should never have aggro - they can't cope with it. As I said before: healer is the next best tank in the trinity, not the dps. Never the dps.

 

 

Edited for clarity:

Ask any healer... you have a team of four, two are taking damage... in an ideal world which two would be taking damage? Who do you have heals available for? What set-up would make life easier for you and success more likely for the group? It's not rocket science... I have 8 heals, I think (without double checking) as a sage... 6 for others, two for myself (and those two are instant with no action cost), I also have a couple of abilities that innately heal me. I also have control of where the aoe heal goes and is used, this is all information that informs the play. And that's without even considering that 50% (though looking at the 57m player infographic its more likely 60-70%) of the time, they are melee dps and leaping around all over the place, while the others are at range and often obscured - focusing and los become an issue when dealing with more than 1 heal target... also what happens when BOTH dps decide to take on separate mobs and now I'm healing all 4 of us?

Edited December 1, 2014 by leehambly

[venomlash]

I am fine with the "kill" part, but not the "take" part.

 

To just randomly rip aggro from the healer because you think the healer is better able to heal themselves, you AND the tank rather than themselves and the tank, is just well... I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you haven't played healer then, right?

If its a major problem, as a healer I'll cc the damned thing. Unless its a specific mechanic, the DPS should never have aggro - they can't cope with it. As I said before: healer is the next best tank in the trinity, not the dps. Never the dps.

 

The point is that it's better for incoming damage to be on the DPS than the healer. If the healer's being beat on, they'll take pushback which will gimp their overall healing; DPS being hit won't cause healer pushback. Similarly, the DPS can kite the enemies (if melee), which the healer can't do without not healing. Also, it's better for the DPS to die (if it comes down to it) than the healer, because the healer can hopefully stabilize the situation, heal people up, and battle rez the DPS.

I've peeled plenty as a DPS, and I've seen good DPS peel mobs off me as a healer.

[Danylia]

[Aside] I had a Manaan fp on my 39k, full 180 sage healer the other day and we had me and three dps. Soon as we load in, one of the dps (30k odd - not that it has any bearing on it... simple fact is at 39k in 180, I'm virtually invulnerable in the tfp's) pipes up and says he'll tank. WRONG WRONG WRONG - this seems to be the prevailing attitude from many dps, do we know where it comes from? Are they basing it on anything, other than naivety and misunderstanding? Am I missing something? Imho, the only alternative to a tank as a tank in these tfp's is a healer.[/Aside]

Assuming you aren't brutally outgearing and outskilling all of the DPS, how do you, as a healer, expect to keep the aggro?

 

This "aside" of yours really confuses me. If there isn't a real tank in the group, the highest geared DPS inevitably ends up as a pseudotank due to how threat generation works. It's really that simple.

[g_land]

Well, Champion -> Elite -> Strong -> Standard/Weak is tank kill order.

 

Seems a great many people are lacking on the sarcasm department today

[leehambly]

The point is that it's better for incoming damage to be on the DPS than the healer. If the healer's being beat on, they'll take pushback which will gimp their overall healing; DPS being hit won't cause healer pushback. Similarly, the DPS can kite the enemies (if melee), which the healer can't do without not healing. Also, it's better for the DPS to die (if it comes down to it) than the healer, because the healer can hopefully stabilize the situation, heal people up, and battle rez the DPS.

I've peeled plenty as a DPS, and I've seen good DPS peel mobs off me as a healer.

 

Don't get me wrong, kill them by all means, just don't rip because you think that will help - I don't see how it helps. There might be individual scenarios, yes, agreed (I've dumped aggro and sacrificed plenty of dps for the success of the group, which is part of the toolkit - its all about control - of the fight, where does the action occur, who is best equipped to handle it, etc)... but as a matter of course in the business-as-usual burn of adds and/or surrounding lower level mobs, I can't see it - doing it the hard way isn't the best way. The key to healer, imho (coming into my 13th year as a healer in MMOs), is calm, simple, effective. Ideally, with the trinity, 1 heal target only, and if things go bad, try to make it only two... the tank and you. I appreciate not all healers do or want this, but they have to be realistic - its the only sensible way to play. This, to me, is as impactful and as commonly misconceived as the "guard on healer" debate.

 

That said, I'm not saying I can't or won't heal the group through that kind of thing, hell its fun, its a rush, just that it does not encourage success and we should not encourage it, either! Need to whip these guys into shape, ffs!

[Ryuku-sama]

Don't get me wrong, kill them by all means, just don't rip because you think that will help - I don't see how it helps. There might be individual scenarios, yes, agreed (I've dumped aggro and sacrificed plenty of dps for the success of the group, which is part of the toolkit - its all about control - of the fight, where does the action occur, who is best equipped to handle it, etc)... but as a matter of course in the business-as-usual burn of adds and/or surrounding lower level mobs, I can't see it - doing it the hard way isn't the best way. The key to healer, imho (coming into my 13th year as a healer in MMOs), is calm, simple, effective. Ideally, with the trinity, 1 heal target only, and if things go bad, try to make it only two... the tank and you. I appreciate not all healers do or want this, but they have to be realistic - its the only sensible way to play. This, to me, is as impactful and as commonly misconceived as the "guard on healer" debate.

 

That said, I'm not saying I can't or won't heal the group through that kind of thing, hell its fun, its a rush, just that it does not encourage success and we should not encourage it, either! Need to whip these guys into shape, ffs!

 

Sniper? Jugg?? Mara?? PT?? They all have better DCDs than your typical healer for killing an weak. Merc??? If they can't kite it... They sucks. Point. Sorc?? Exactly the same. Oper??? Shadow?? They are still better than a healer at surviving if you don,t take into account your heals.

 

And as a DPS. One hit and I'll rip it off you.. Two at most. Three if I take time to apply a DoT on it before just killing it.

[leehambly]

They are still better than a healer at surviving if you don,t take into account your heals.

Why would you do that? I'm a healer.

[leehambly]

Assuming you aren't brutally outgearing and outskilling all of the DPS, how do you, as a healer, expect to keep the aggro?

 

This "aside" of yours really confuses me. If there isn't a real tank in the group, the highest geared DPS inevitably ends up as a pseudotank due to how threat generation works. It's really that simple.

 

on that particular Manaan, which I would like to be able to replay really... I was brutally outgearing them, yes, the 30k guy was the next highest, but his dps is not necessarily proportionally related to his hp, so :/ ... but even so... I did say I'd try to keep aggro - I did suggest to them to give me plenty of time to build it up... and yes it might have taken a few seconds more, but that's for the success of the mission - its not because I want to show I can tank, if I wanted to do that I'd be using my tank... its because given the abilities available to each of us in the group and as a whole, it just makes sense that the damage occurs where best the damage can be dealt with, doesn't it?

It may seem counter-intuitive but its not at all. Yes, dps will generate threat when they attack, but with a bit of co-operation the threat I have already and can then maintain it with healing and dps - doesn't always work, but its a good starting point - the combat develops from there and it may change, but at least we are off to a good controlled start.

 

In a "tactical", must remember its a tactical FP... which given the kolto, is only about dps - nothing else, and yes they will rip from me, its inevitable, but lets try to NOT do that... make what could be a chaotic, random, running bash around the room into a controlled burn with the dps all outputting at 100%, not having kiting issues and not causing los issues and generally not risking success.

 

It was the confluence boss, the expanding pools of the water... and yeah, it wasn't easy... but tbh after that one guy went down it was easy. I had aggro and kept kiting him nicely from one pool drop to the next, keeping it all together and away from the dps.

Edited December 1, 2014 by leehambly

[Ryuku-sama]

Why would you do that? I'm a healer.

 

What is easier to heal?? 5k hp or 10k??? The time you will spend healing the extra 5k is time not spent on healing the tank.

[Darkelefantos]

Don't get me wrong, kill them by all means, just don't rip because you think that will help - I don't see how it helps.

What you're expecting is next to impossible if there's no gear difference and the healer's not putting out high DPS.

[leehambly]

What is easier to heal?? 5k hp or 10k??? The time you will spend healing the extra 5k is time not spent on healing the tank.

 

This is when there is no tank, so :/

 

But as for healing me... well, I'm getting the innate off my bubble and standing in my aoe, which accounts for how much? And after that last damage burst I might use my instant heal... remembering next time, if I need it before CD, I can pop the reusable medpack or the bluey if real bad, or start thinking about who I need to spend my actual heals on for when it all gets too much and I have to dump aggro - ah cool, no need to worry, the kolto terminal has come back online - its all options. Healer has them, its that simple.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying its in any way ideal - ideal is, idk, 4 ranged dps each sat on their own kolto terminal playing hot potato with a melee boss! And again, Im not saying this is doable or advisable for ALL situations, that's madness... but a 3 dps 1 healer TFP like Manaan... its the only way.

 

Man, I wish it were tomorrow... characters prepped and ready to go, release 3.0 alreadys.

[DogeDandolo]

This is when there is no tank, so :/

 

But as for healing me... well, I'm getting the innate off my bubble and standing in my aoe, which accounts for how much? And after that last damage burst I might use my instant heal... remembering next time, if I need it before CD, I can pop the reusable medpack or the bluey if real bad, or start thinking about who I need to spend my actual heals on for when it all gets too much and I have to dump aggro - ah cool, no need to worry, the kolto terminal has come back online - its all options. Healer has them, its that simple.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying its in any way ideal - ideal is, idk, 4 ranged dps each sat on their own kolto terminal playing hot potato with a melee boss! And again, Im not saying this is doable or advisable for ALL situations, that's madness... but a 3 dps 1 healer TFP like Manaan... its the only way.

 

Man, I wish it were tomorrow... characters prepped and ready to go, release 3.0 alreadys.

 

The problem is that healer threat generation is terrible. Sure, on trash pulls, you'll get all the Weaks because the DPSers are tunnel-visioning the strongs, but on bosses, all but the worst DPS will pull off you, even if they threat drop on CD. Asking the DPS to deliberately gimp their damage output so the healer can keep aggro is just shooting yourself in the knee. A better strategy, IMO, would be to designate the DPS with the highest damage output as pseudotank and get the other DPS to threat drop on CD. That way, you still only have one target to heal, with much less danger of the other DPS constantly pulling off you.

[leehambly]

What you're expecting is next to impossible if there's no gear difference and the healer's not putting out high DPS.

 

Uh? don't see how what you quoted relates...

 

If a dps is ripping a mob OFF me, that is because I have aggro.

If the dps wants to kill it... fine, done - kill it, if the mob gets a shot in meanwhile, that's what happens - no great shakes.

If the dps wants to rip aggro because that dps'er thinks the group is better able to handle him having aggro on that mob rather than the healer, then that's what I'm talking about - now I'm healing myself, because I had aggro AND the dps that's being damaged, oh and in this instance, there is a tank... so him too.

 

Which bit is "next to impossible" exactly? Next to impossible to ask a dps to rip and kill? I don't understand. I don't see how gear figures at all.

[PLynkes]

We apologise to viewers who tuned in expecting the scheduled funny stories about Group Finder, but we are experiencing technical difficulties.

 

Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible. In the meantime, here's some music...

 

 

Edited December 1, 2014 by PLynkes

[DogeDandolo]

We apologise to viewers who were expecting the scheduled funny stories about Group Finder, but we are experiencing technical difficulties.

 

Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible. In the meantime, here's some music...

 

 

 

Someone give this man a medal!

[leehambly]

We apologise to viewers who tuned in expecting the scheduled funny stories about Group Finder, but we are experiencing technical difficulties.

 

Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible. In the meantime, here's some music...

 

 

 

 

It has at least been "inspired by"... is 3.0 out yet?

[BobFredJohn]

Ill explain what I meant to clear this up.

 

Tank doesn't do his job, 3 standards attack healer (for example)

 

I shoot standard number 1, get aggro. Should I now move to enemy 2 then 3 or kill 1 then move to 2 etc.

 

Shield probe, evasion, stun, auto heal from being in cover (on my sniper)

 

Sabre ward, rebuke, healing myself with burn crits and a 36% crit chance (sent)

 

How is pulling stuff off the healer going to cause the healer problems? You think a dps can't cope with enemies just because a dps has no heals? And every GCD you spend healing yourself is another portion of the tanks hp gone (who is likely holding aggro on multiple elites/strongs).

Edited December 1, 2014 by BobFredJohn

[TACeMossie]

I'll also add another thing.

 

Say there are 6 weaks and a strong. The tank and the DPS are tunneling the strong. This is in the level 60 HM Manaan so no overgearing (mob situation is made up but whatever)

 

Now those mobs are going to be beating on you, so any heal you do without 100% pushback immunity is NOT going to happen. So, what would you prefer? Tanking them? or letting a DPS pull off you so you can do more than Innervate/Healing Trance?

[leehambly]

I'll also add another thing.

 

Say there are 6 weaks and a strong. The tank and the DPS are tunneling the strong. This is in the level 60 HM Manaan so no overgearing (mob situation is made up but whatever)

 

Now those mobs are going to be beating on you, so any heal you do without 100% pushback immunity is NOT going to happen. So, what would you prefer? Tanking them? or letting a DPS pull off you so you can do more than Innervate/Healing Trance?

 

A TFP at any level with a tank and healer? It's every man for themselves. There are kolto tanks, even the tank and healer should be using these liberally, whats the CD on them? 20 seconds? The dps might get a probe or a bubble here and there, leading up to hopefully, if not, during the boss "special move". But with that group composition there's obviously no argument to be had - and yeah, at that point, the tunnelling would be talked about - don't go ruining my pathetic dps in a TFP!