RotHC // 2.0 : Healing - It's ridiculous.

[Arkerus]

Ya... you cant just roll your face n the keyboard to kill healers anymore... Use stuns, interrupts and knockbacks. The healer will die. /close thread

 

So its ok healers can roll their face across the keyboard, with unlimited resources and heal themselves and most of their team?

 

You can't just roll your face on the keyboard to avoid DPS. Use knockbacks, stuns and escapes. The DPS will not get to you.

 

See how that works? Two can play that game.

[Never_Hesitate]

So its ok healers can roll their face across the keyboard, with unlimited resources and heal themselves and most of their team?

 

If their not focused: yes

If the other teams dps are bad: yes (no interrupts/stuns/ ...)

 

If a heal can heal himself and his team while he is under focus fire, your dps are really bad.

[Arkerus]

If their not focused: yes

If the other teams dps are bad: yes (no interrupts/stuns/ ...)

 

If a heal can heal himself and his team while he is under focus fire, your dps are really bad.

 

It doesn't matter what the DPS do when there are multiple healers. Healers healing healers are practically unkillable at this point.

 

Played two CW matches last night where both teams just ran into each other at mid for 20 minutes. The only guns firing were the side guns because no one could take the middle. That's pointless and a giant waste of time.

[Never_Hesitate]

It doesn't matter what the DPS do when there are multiple healers. Healers healing healers are practically unkillable at this point.

 

Played two CW matches last night where both teams just ran into each other at mid for 20 minutes. The only guns firing were the side guns because no one could take the middle. That's pointless and a giant waste of time.

 

*facepalm*

Talking about healing being op and having crosshealing in mind is a very bad idea.

 

Now take a tank to the equation and you really have no deaths.

Pre2.0 we had teams with 5 heals and a tank sometimes, guess what: we had very close to no deaths on our side

[Thrasymicus]

3 healers, all 3 marked, how do you teach disorganized DPS who to shoot and slash? Notice how in RWZ the leader gives order who to DPS and everybody drops what they are doing and ficuses fire. We dont have that kind of dynamic focus fire in random pugs.

 

As much as i am trying to aid whatever team mate with focus fire,i will always miss the bigger picture. While a healer only has to look at his ops frame and he already knows if there is somebody within his LOS that needs heal.

 

And wait, we have special DPS spec requirments to bring down healers. You need mobile melee dps to acrually hunt the down.

 

Right... as a healer I am stopping caps, finishing off enemy healers and other low health targets, kiting the dps on me, CCing and healing my team (usually average around 1mil). If you are good you can multitask and still keep the big picture in mind.

[Scotland]

Right... as a healer I am stopping caps, finishing off enemy healers and other low health targets, kiting the dps on me, CCing and healing my team (usually average around 1mil). If you are good you can multitask and still keep the big picture in mind.

 

Sounds like you are describing me, when i pvp.

[IHate]

All MMO's add damage, add damage, add damage. Having a good healing balance is needed to make fights anything more than instantaneous kills. Everyone is so use to the team full of MonkeySmashing jedi's and instant deaths to their opponents, that now you see a good engaging fight your ADHD kicks in.

[Scotland]

All MMO's add damage, add damage, add damage. Having a good healing balance is needed to make fights anything more than instantaneous kills. Everyone is so use to the team full of MonkeySmashing jedi's and instant deaths to their opponents, that now you see a good engaging fight your ADHD kicks in.

 

/thread

[Thrasymicus]

So its ok healers can roll their face across the keyboard, with unlimited resources and heal themselves and most of their team?

 

You can't just roll your face on the keyboard to avoid DPS. Use knockbacks, stuns and escapes. The DPS will not get to you.

 

See how that works? Two can play that game.

 

I do use my stuns, knockbacks and escapes. I cannot faceroll a decent DPS. If they know how to use their skills intelligently i am going to need to use said stuns, knockbacks and escapes to stay alive. The DPS in this game are used to just facerolling their damage abilities with no real thought and being able to kill healers. Now that they cannot do this anymore they are crying. In a 1v1 the DPS should not be able to kill a healer and the healer should not be able to kill a DPS if both of them are playing to the best of their ability. That is balance. In a 2v1, the DPS should easily be able to lock down a healer. You apparently aren't playing the game I am playing, sir.

 

EDIT: The resources are far from unlimited for sages at least. If we are being properly focused there is no way we can afford to noble sacrifice. Scoundrels are a bit of a different story but if you know how to counter them you will do fine. Mandos aren't too bad either. My advice? Play a healer and do it well. Then you will know how to counter the healing classes.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Thrasymicus

[FodderofCannon]

I think vast majority of the healers here are missing the point. It's not that one healer by him/herself is OP (although Op's healers are more tank than tanks), it's that multiple healers cross-healing SCALE dramatically better than dps do. Add a semi-skilled tank that guards and taunts and we have an almost unkillable combination.

 

Interrupts block one ability. That's sure going to stop that healer from healing!!

 

I love healers that say use interrupts and stuns is the solution. The window of opportunity for cc on a healer is absurd in any Pug WZ because in trying to focus a healer with stuns your team always ends up accidentally filling resolve, thus making said healer a healing bot that cannot be stunned. Switch healers, and the whole thing repeats itself.

 

Once again its not that you cannot crack this with well focused, and well timed dps. However, the point is that in Pug WZ's this level of coordination is just not going to happen 99% of the time.

[Arkerus]

I do use my stuns, knockbacks and escapes. I cannot faceroll a decent DPS. If they know how to use their skills intelligently i am going to need to use said stuns, knockbacks and escapes to stay alive. The DPS in this game are used to just facerolling their damage abilities with no real thought and being able to kill healers. Now that they cannot do this anymore they are crying. In a 1v1 the DPS should not be able to kill a healer and the healer should not be able to kill a DPS if both of them are playing to the best of their ability. That is balance. In a 2v1, the DPS should easily be able to lock down a healer. You apparently aren't playing the game I am playing, sir.

 

EDIT: The resources are far from unlimited for sages at least. If we are being properly focused there is no way we can afford to noble sacrifice. Scoundrels are a bit of a different story but if you know how to counter them you will do fine. Mandos aren't too bad either. My advice? Play a healer and do it well. Then you will know how to counter the healing classes.

 

You sounds like the DK self healers in that other game who were claiming it was all skill until they were nerfed. You can add all the posts you want to this thread claiming that "intelligent" people will still stop you, but the fact of the matter iis healing far outpaces DPS right now and it will be pulled back.

[heraldoflite]

Yes I completely agree--The barrier ability is a damn joke. I went 1V1 with a very good healer and ttk was like 1min 30s it took forever--then when I finally dropped him my resources were burned and his fresh buddy with full Cd's killed me. I am a Smash guardian with over 3k on the training dummy so dishing burst dmg is not an issue. Heals are way OP...

[Astarica]

I've said this many times but unkillable is nowhere the same as unwinnable. There are times where we completely dominated the other team while killing less than 5 of them in the entire game. A healing heavy team cannot take objectives effectively because they're restrained by a lack of DPS. As long as you recognize some of the telltale signs of such a team (they'd almost certainly attack in a very unorthodox manner because they can't afford to let you get settled in and defend) it's not hard to beat them.

 

Focus fire is kind of overrated anyway. If you say your awesome WZ leader magically tells 6 DPS to all lock on the same healer then I magically tell my tank to throw up a Guard and other 2 healers to magically all start healing the guy focus fired, and 2 healers + Guard easily outdo 6 DPS focus fire (that's basically just 3 DPS on one healer with 2 healing, trivially dealt with at the expense of the tank's health). Of course at that point you magically tell your guy to switch to the healer that isn't guarded and then I magically tell my guys to switch the Guard to the new healer. You can believe there's supposed to be this totally awesome guy who if you listen to what he says everything will work out, but in reality even if such a guy exists there's nothing stopping the other side having a similarly awesome guy negating everything your awesome guy just did.

 

In the end dealing with healer is pretty simple. If you see a healer that isn't being attacked at all, you attack that guy, because leaving a healer completely alone is almost never a good idea. If all healers are being hit, then you attack the ones that look most vulnerable. If they're all at 100%, just pick the closest healer. If you see a healer dip below 30%, start hitting him first. It's not so much as coordination but rather common sense. Sometimes it even makes sense to drop the healer's guard first if you see his health dip below 30% beacuse the healer neglected him. There isn't a magic plan you communicate ahead of time that removes healers. If it's so easy why even have healers? Heck, why even play the game? Just have your WZ leader talk to the enemy WZ leader and they can agree who sounds like they have a better plan and call it a day.

[sirullrich]

Yes I completely agree--The barrier ability is a damn joke. I went 1V1 with a very good healer and ttk was like 1min 30s it took forever--then when I finally dropped him my resources were burned and his fresh buddy with full Cd's killed me. I am a Smash guardian with over 3k on the training dummy so dishing burst dmg is not an issue. Heals are way OP...

 

A healer should be able to keep up with you 1v1. Just because you are dps you think you should be able to 1v1 a healer. Rateds comp are 2healers, 2 tanks, 4 dps. The ratio for dps to healers is 2-1 because it is suppose to be though to kill a healer 1v1. Even if it was pre 2.0 you wouldn't be able to kill me 1v1.

[Tanshui]

A healer should be able to keep up with you 1v1. Just because you are dps you think you should be able to 1v1 a healer. Rateds comp are 2healers, 2 tanks, 4 dps. The ratio for dps to healers is 2-1 because it is suppose to be though to kill a healer 1v1. Even if it was pre 2.0 you wouldn't be able to kill me 1v1.

 

No it's not, it's because the Healer doesn't travel by him/herself. A healer doesn't kill a healer. A tank doesn't kill a healer. A tank doesn't kill a tank.

 

DPS kills people, that's why you need more dps.

 

1 dps versus 1 healer - dps should be able to kill the healer or more realistically, force the healer to retreat. If you can't, why bother with a dps in the first place? Now I'm not talking about insta-gibbing the healer. I'm saying after cooldowns are properly used. Why in the world would people think one single DPS should not be able to kill one Healer, all else equal? Especially it doesn't take a genius to examine the design of the game (more defensive cooldowns, defensive abilities on longer cooldowns, defensive combos are compounding/complementary, offense scales linerally, etc) - going backwards from that if a dps can't make life difficult on one healer.... just. no.

 

(Edit - can't make life difficult.)

Edited April 26, 2013 by Tanshui

[sirullrich]

No it's not, it's because the Healer doesn't travel by him/herself. A healer doesn't kill a healer. A tank doesn't kill a healer. A tank doesn't kill a tank.

 

DPS kills people, that's why you need more dps.

 

1 dps versus 1 healer - dps should be able to kill the healer or more realistically, force the healer to retreat. If you can't, why bother with a dps in the first place? Now I'm not talking about insta-gibbing the healer. I'm saying after cooldowns are properly used. Why in the world would people think one single DPS should not be able to kill one Healer, all else equal? Especially it doesn't take a genius to examine the design of the game (more defensive cooldowns, defensive abilities on longer cooldowns, defensive combos are compounding/complementary, offense scales linerally, etc) - going backwards from that if a dps can't make life on one healer.... just. no.

 

Healers heal people dps kill people. you try to kill me I heal myself. that's the way it works. Dude because you fail at killing people don't blame it on healers. In all rateds you send 2 people to fk with one healer. Because we all know one dps is not going to be enough to kill a healer. You are saying because dps should be killing people a healer should not be able to defend themselves. get over yourself.

[Tanshui]

I've said this many times but unkillable is nowhere the same as unwinnable. There are times where we completely dominated the other team while killing less than 5 of them in the entire game. A healing heavy team cannot take objectives effectively because they're restrained by a lack of DPS. As long as you recognize some of the telltale signs of such a team (they'd almost certainly attack in a very unorthodox manner because they can't afford to let you get settled in and defend) it's not hard to beat them.

 

Focus fire is kind of overrated anyway. If you say your awesome WZ leader magically tells 6 DPS to all lock on the same healer then I magically tell my tank to throw up a Guard and other 2 healers to magically all start healing the guy focus fired, and 2 healers + Guard easily outdo 6 DPS focus fire (that's basically just 3 DPS on one healer with 2 healing, trivially dealt with at the expense of the tank's health). Of course at that point you magically tell your guy to switch to the healer that isn't guarded and then I magically tell my guys to switch the Guard to the new healer. You can believe there's supposed to be this totally awesome guy who if you listen to what he says everything will work out, but in reality even if such a guy exists there's nothing stopping the other side having a similarly awesome guy negating everything your awesome guy just did.

 

In the end dealing with healer is pretty simple. If you see a healer that isn't being attacked at all, you attack that guy, because leaving a healer completely alone is almost never a good idea. If all healers are being hit, then you attack the ones that look most vulnerable. If they're all at 100%, just pick the closest healer. If you see a healer dip below 30%, start hitting him first. It's not so much as coordination but rather common sense. Sometimes it even makes sense to drop the healer's guard first if you see his health dip below 30% beacuse the healer neglected him. There isn't a magic plan you communicate ahead of time that removes healers. If it's so easy why even have healers? Heck, why even play the game? Just have your WZ leader talk to the enemy WZ leader and they can agree who sounds like they have a better plan and call it a day.

 

I agree with the principle behind this (and the other post before it) on focus fire effectiveness versus defensive combos (guard, taunt, cross-heal). It's not that focus fire is over-rated, per se. It's that it's far easier for one individual to do his share in the defensive combo coordination, without coordinating.

 

A tank can do his/her job to save a teammate fairly effectively even without good coordination. It just requires the tank to be a good player. Same with a healer.

 

DPS need to be *well coordinated* and that's relatively difficult in pugs.

 

In a setting where individual skill and teamwork skill is both in surplus it' snot as if one side's effectiveness (or ineffectiveness) grossly sticks out like a sore thumb.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is In pugs there is a lack of common sense and understanding of the game. If we assume a fairly similar distribution of skilled players across the holy trinity, the healer/tanks currently are able to contribute more based just solely on individual skill.

 

All that aside, even under well coordinated environments, Operatives currently have a little bit too much tools at their disposal than my taste. It can sometimes be frustrating.

[Tanshui]

Healers heal people dps kill people. you try to kill me I heal myself. that's the way it works. Dude because you fail at killing people don't blame it on healers. In all rateds you send 2 people to fk with one healer. Because we all know one dps is not going to be enough to kill a healer. You are saying because dps should be killing people a healer should not be able to defend themselves. get over yourself.

 

The problem with talking about a scenario holistically is it covers too big of a range.

 

I don't have a problem killing most healers. Then again, to some healers I'm just a minor annoyance and yes it does then require a teammate (or two) to help. I don't see anything wrong with either scenario. There is a skill element to the game, don't forget.

 

What I'm talking about is the principle behind Healer, Tank, and Damage Dealer design. You make it sound like an absolute where a dps should not kill a healer 1 on 1. I'm saying a dps should be able to kill/harass/force a retreat a healer, once cooldowns are burnt. Do you really argue against that? You think Healers should be able to free-cast even with a DD on them? If that's the case, we'll agree that our views on paradigm design are fundamentally different. Fortunately I work in product management and you probably do not.

[Thrasymicus]

I think vast majority of the healers here are missing the point. It's not that one healer by him/herself is OP (although Op's healers are more tank than tanks), it's that multiple healers cross-healing SCALE dramatically better than dps do. Add a semi-skilled tank that guards and taunts and we have an almost unkillable combination.

 

Interrupts block one ability. That's sure going to stop that healer from healing!!

 

I love healers that say use interrupts and stuns is the solution. The window of opportunity for cc on a healer is absurd in any Pug WZ because in trying to focus a healer with stuns your team always ends up accidentally filling resolve, thus making said healer a healing bot that cannot be stunned. Switch healers, and the whole thing repeats itself.

 

Once again its not that you cannot crack this with well focused, and well timed dps. However, the point is that in Pug WZ's this level of coordination is just not going to happen 99% of the time.

 

To counter this... either throw 1 dps on each healer to lock up and then put the rest on one healer at a time or use long lasting CC to take some of them out of the fight while u nuke the others (be ready for a backup in case of trink or dispel). The main problem in pug WZs is that even when you mark the healers...1, 2, or 3 of them...the pugs don't even attack the marks... they just 1v1 randomly. My point? I don't think it's right to nerf things based on people not playing with their brain. Also, u have the interrupt, whatever stuns your class has, whatever knockbacks your class has, (edit: and interrupts from leaps). Find a way to cycle them so that the CDs flow together. Perhaps kick, then stun, then kick again (since the cd should be up), then a knockback/other stun (and maybe another kick soon). This is possible... i do it all the time on my dps toons.... even on my healers as I'm taking down enemy healers since, usually, the DPS are too stupid to actually focus me.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Thrasymicus

[Volxen]

I think vast majority of the healers here are missing the point. It's not that one healer by him/herself is OP (although Op's healers are more tank than tanks), it's that multiple healers cross-healing SCALE dramatically better than dps do. Add a semi-skilled tank that guards and taunts and we have an almost unkillable combination.

 

Interrupts block one ability. That's sure going to stop that healer from healing!!

 

I love healers that say use interrupts and stuns is the solution. The window of opportunity for cc on a healer is absurd in any Pug WZ because in trying to focus a healer with stuns your team always ends up accidentally filling resolve, thus making said healer a healing bot that cannot be stunned. Switch healers, and the whole thing repeats itself.

 

Once again its not that you cannot crack this with well focused, and well timed dps. However, the point is that in Pug WZ's this level of coordination is just not going to happen 99% of the time.

 

All this means is that healers in general are more skilled at cross-healing than DPSers are at focus fire. Period. It does NOT mean that cross-healing is "OP", or that focus fire is somehow weak or ineffective. Given that most games have 6-8 DPSers (Yes, even in 2.0 most regular warzones do NOT have more than two healers), there really is no excuse for not being able to kill a couple of cross-healing healers. Does it require common sense and coordination? Yes, it does. If your team is full of a bunch of derps, then you frankly don't deserve to kill either of the cross-healing healers. Some of you seem to think healers should be this underpowered, non-essential role that at best delays the inevitable (i.e., how they were before 2.0). That's not the case, at least not anymore. Healers play a vital role in the outcome of a warzone, as it should be. With coordination and cross-healing, healers are intended to be able to actually keep their teammates alive. This is why it's the job of your DPSers to counter their cross-healing with focus fire. Stop expecting everything to be easy and handed to you on a silver platter.

 

Again, focus fire is really the secret weapon of DPSers in this game. It has the potential to be far, FAR more effective than cross-healing, because of the sheer number of DPSers in most games (again, 6-8 for each team). The healing in this game is actually balanced around the extremely low TTK (remember that the TTK is LOWER now) and focus fire; healing is the only thing that stops people from dying in seconds to focus fire. It's not going to be nerfed just because most pugs have too much tunnel vision to coordinate and focus fire, because the increased healing output is balanced against the reduced TTK and focus fire.

[szczypaczek]

 

I love healers that say use interrupts and stuns is the solution. The window of opportunity for cc on a healer is absurd in any Pug WZ because in trying to focus a healer with stuns your team always ends up accidentally filling resolve, thus making said healer a healing bot that cannot be stunned. Switch healers, and the whole thing repeats itself.

 

So healer should just die everytime a dps just targets him, when i read this butthurt crying i just try to remeber another mythic /BW MMO Warhammer online, where healers had detaunt (-50% dmg for the enemy, that is attacking you) and things were fine, nobody wept like a litte baby. Too many healers wont win you WZ anyway

[Thrasymicus]

Originally Posted by FodderofCannon

 

I love healers that say use interrupts and stuns is the solution. The window of opportunity for cc on a healer is absurd in any Pug WZ because in trying to focus a healer with stuns your team always ends up accidentally filling resolve, thus making said healer a healing bot that cannot be stunned. Switch healers, and the whole thing repeats itself.

 

 

Again. Balance shouldn't be scaled to pugs playing terribly. If they are bad and fill the resolve too quickly then that is their fault, not the fault of balance. If you balance the game to the terrible pugs then the rateds will be all out of whack.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Thrasymicus

[Volxen]

Again. Balance shouldn't be scaled to pugs playing terribly. If they are bad and fill the resolve too quickly then that is their fault, not the fault of balance. If you balance the game to the terrible pugs then the rateds will be all out of whack.

 

That is essentially the center piece to their entire "healers are OP" argument. They want healers to be "balanced" around the inability of tunnel visioned pugs to coordinate, focus fire, and use their brains.

[sirullrich]

http://imgur.com/mPrl4g7

 

The tank in this game got 600k protection. He kept me alive, but if he wasn't peeling for me I would've died constantly. There was a mara, jug, and an assassin on me the whole match. I took 400k damage but if also took the damage the tank peeled for me then I would've been taking 600k damage and would've died a lot more. I was top heals but it wasn't because I could constantly run away from the dps. It was because my tank peeled for me. Healers are where they need to be. 3 dps would've normally killed me, but I had help.

[Thrasymicus]

That is essentially the center piece to their entire "healers are OP" argument. They want healers to be "balanced" around the inability of tunnel visioned pugs to coordinate, focus fire, and use their brains.

 

They got spoiled because you didn't have to use any form of CC or kick to kill a healer before. The good will adapt and do fine. The bad will QQ. Such is the life of MMOs.