*** Official PvE DPS Leaderboard ***

[TheLukeFactor]

I would give Cotrex the benefit of the doubt. This isn't exactly something that can easily be edited or explained. For all we know, it could be a torparse rounding error (It after all misrounds cooldowns all the time), etc etc etc.

 

I think Cotrex' parse is extraordinary and SHOULD be scrutinized, but at the same time, knowing cotrex, I feel that we should give her the benefit of the doubt. She doesn't come across as an editor to me. Worst case scenario, just have her reparse. All too often we mistake a mystery for guilt. Just because something doesn't have an answer doesn't mean you just go randomly guessing.

 

The ability damage doesn't add up. Cotrex has said many times they are in mainly 180's. and their avg dmg per hit on each ability is equal to (or higher) than mine. and I'm BiS.. Furthermore. the 1.5 million dummy balances out parses way too harshly for someone to be able to sustain those crit rates (in gear that has less crit than I run)

 

And the icing on the cake the execute phase starting a solid 20 seconds later than it should have. We can chalk it up to random rng. However, the more logical explanation is that Cotrex very carefully added damage and crit rates to certain abilities. However didn't account for the execute phase. And wasn't thorough enough when going through the log to pick up on this mistake.

 

I understand that once in awhile, it is possible to get a god parse. But in 180's with the crit rate she is running. I'm not even sure if it's possible.

[justinplainview]

I would give Cotrex the benefit of the doubt. This isn't exactly something that can easily be edited or explained. For all we know, it could be a torparse rounding error (It after all misrounds cooldowns all the time), etc etc etc.

 

I think Cotrex' parse is extraordinary and SHOULD be scrutinized, but at the same time, knowing cotrex, I feel that we should give her the benefit of the doubt. She doesn't come across as an editor to me. Worst case scenario, just have her reparse. All too often we mistake a mystery for guilt. Just because something doesn't have an answer doesn't mean you just go randomly guessing.

 

Yeah, because Jaberse seemed like an editor to you. Because Aiesthesis players seemed to have a moral/ethical high ground because KBN runs the board. What somebody SEEMS like is just another way of saying you have no actual way to justify why you don't have issues with it other than gut feelings and butterflies in your stomach. I'm not trolling, but the fact that this is even an argument is weird. It's Math. It's very cut and dry. And Torparse rounding error? It's a spreadsheet tool. It's not a man sitting back in a sweatshop with a broken calculator and a pencil with no eraser, hoping to God nobody notices his mistakes.

 

This whole situation, and parse editing in general, makes me not want to parse anymore. It's ridiculous. It makes Aisthesis look bad because they have to back-peddal on defending their people, and they have to hedge the hate that comes their way so they look petty when they report people, PLUS they on one end invite scrutiny, and on the other threaten to bar people from boards. Newsflash: This is the relevant equivalent of a forum 'scandal'. Take your licks. This entire situation is a grand example of naïveté. IMHO, Aisthesis is getting some undue flack about an individual's performance, but on the other hand he represented the guild and the guild DID defend him up until the moment he was outted. Chalk it up to the game.

 

I will say this though, When somebody says "Invite all scrutiny, etc etc" then it's immediately followed up with GUYS WE SHOULD SCRUTINIZE, BUT PUT THE KID GLOVES ON, SHE'S SUPER NICE AND BAKES ME COOKIES ON SUNDAYS AT HALFTIME OF MY NIECE'S SOCCER GAMES, SHE WOULD NEVER DO SOMETHING ON A VIDEO GAME TO MAKE HERSELF LOOK LIKE SHE HAS A SKILL LEVEL HIGHER THAN REALITY BEARS OUT. Makes me just lose my ability to look at someone seriously.

 

The execute phase literally happens a HUGE section later than it does. That's not torparse. That's a combat log being edited.

Edited August 7, 2014 by justinplainview

[GrandLordMenace]

Yeah, because Jaberse seemed like an editor to you. Because Aiesthesis players seemed to have a moral/ethical high ground because KBN runs the board. What somebody SEEMS like is just another way of saying you have no actual way to justify why you don't have issues with it other than gut feelings and butterflies in your stomach. I'm not trolling, but the fact that this is even an argument is weird. It's Math. It's very cut and dry. And Torparse rounding error? It's a spreadsheet tool. It's not a man sitting back in a sweatshop with a broken calculator and a pencil with no eraser, hoping to God nobody notices his mistakes.

 

This whole situation, and parse editing in general, makes me not want to parse anymore. It's ridiculous. It makes Aisthesis look bad because they have to back-peddal on defending their people, and they have to hedge the hate that comes their way so they look petty when they report people, PLUS they on one end invite scrutiny, and on the other threaten to bar people from boards. Newsflash: This is the relevant equivalent of a forum 'scandal'. Take your licks. This entire situation is a grand example of naïveté. IMHO, Aisthesis is getting some undue flack about an individual's performance, but on the other hand he represented the guild and the guild DID defend him up until the moment he was outted. Chalk it up to the game.

 

I will say this though, When somebody says "Invite all scrutiny, etc etc" then it's immediately followed up with GUYS WE SHOULD SCRUTINIZE, BUT PUT THE KID GLOVES ON, SHE'S SUPER NICE AND BAKES ME COOKIES ON SUNDAYS AT HALFTIME OF MY NIECE'S SOCCER GAMES, SHE WOULD NEVER DO SOMETHING ON A VIDEO GAME TO MAKE HERSELF LOOK LIKE SHE HAS A SKILL LEVEL HIGHER THAN REALITY BEARS OUT. Makes me just lose my ability to look at someone seriously.

 

The execute phase literally happens a HUGE section later than it does. That's not torparse. That's a combat log being edited.

 

Jaberse had screenshots and various whispers CONFIRMING he was editing.

 

Cotrex has one parse. Is it fishy? Of course it is! Could it be a bug? Maybe? Could she be editing? Who knows, only her. But I've seen other fishy things from my own parses that I cannot explain, such as abilities showing themselves activating tenths of a second early, etc (Check dulfy guide parse analysis section in sig). Infact I bet that if we all dug down and cross examined eachother's parses we'd find other fishy things.

Edited August 7, 2014 by GrandLordMenace

[SnickerJew]

Check Dulfy's guide. How dare you insult us.

[TheLukeFactor]

Jaberse had screenshots and various whispers CONFIRMING he was editing.

 

Cotrex has one parse. Is it fishy? Of course it is! Could it be a bug? Maybe? Could she be editing? Who knows, only her. But I've seen other fishy things from my own parses that I cannot explain, such as abilities showing themselves activating tenths of a second early, etc (Check dulfy guide parse analysis section in sig). Infact I bet that if we all dug down and cross examined eachother's parses we'd find other fishy things.

 

I understand Tenth's of seconds. I however do not understand an execute phase not showing up until 20 seconds later than it should have

[GrandLordMenace]

Also explain to me how we were defending jaberse? Did we publically defend him somewhere? Tam instantly shot down his parses the moment he found out.

 

The moment I found out, I literally flipped out. I LOOKED UP to jaberse, like every single aspiring DPS looks up to a better player. When I literally found out that some of that had been a lie, several of us flipped the **** out. The same thing would happen if any officer or player that was in your guild was found to be obtaining gear through unauthorized means or doctoring parses.

Edited August 7, 2014 by GrandLordMenace

[GrandLordMenace]

Check Dulfy's guide. How dare you insult us.

 

It's MY guide. It happens to be on dulfy's site.

 

Semantics aside, scrutiny resume.

 

My current list of suspicions:

 

Execute phase being in the wrong place.

 

Why would cotrex say something about cheating being necessary to beat PV members, even as a joke?

 

Food for thought.

Edited August 7, 2014 by GrandLordMenace

[justinplainview]

Also explain to me how we were defending jaberse? Did we publically defend him somewhere? Tam instantly shot down his parses the moment he found out.

 

The moment I found out, I literally flipped out. I LOOKED UP to jaberse, like every single aspiring DPS looks up to a better player. When I literally found out that some of that had been a lie, several of us flipped the **** out. The same thing would happen if any officer or player that was in your guild was found to be obtaining gear through unauthorized means or doctoring parses.

 

We deny apps of mainhand exploiters and honestly too many in our guild don't care about parsing. Of the ones that do, myself, Devasta, Tenebras, Krasuz, etc, we are usually parsing while in mumble and in group parsec together. It's pretty easy to tell. As for when he was defended, there were a number of days in which he was accused of faking the parse where he DID NOT admit it, it wasn't hidden from the community that people questioned it.

 

But nonetheless, I'm not making this a blame Aisthesis fest. I'm just saying it shouldn't be surprising that the acts of a guild member would tarnish the guild's reputation. Even if you kicked the guy who did it. I get flack for **** my guild did over a year ago and I wasn't even in the guild that tier of content. Literally, it goes with the territory of being in a guild.

[GrandLordMenace]

We deny apps of mainhand exploiters and honestly too many in our guild don't care about parsing. Of the ones that do, myself, Devasta, Tenebras, Krasuz, etc, we are usually parsing while in mumble and in group parsec together. It's pretty easy to tell. As for when he was defended, there were a number of days in which he was accused of faking the parse where he DID NOT admit it, it wasn't hidden from the community that people questioned it.

 

But nonetheless, I'm not making this a blame Aisthesis fest. I'm just saying it shouldn't be surprising that the acts of a guild member would tarnish the guild's reputation. Even if you kicked the guy who did it. I get flack for **** my guild did over a year ago and I wasn't even in the guild that tier of content. Literally, it goes with the territory of being in a guild.

 

Yes, it's partially why I flipped out, because Jabs should've been aware of potential repercussions to the reputation of the guild before editing, let alone his own reputation. Regardless, whatever results from scrutiny of parses, be it Cotrex or mine or Sythise or Awkwarder or anyone parsing on this board (Not pointing fingers, JUST examples), if they are editing they should consider the potential repercussions to the various reputations of their respective guilds.

[justinplainview]

Yes, it's partially why I flipped out, because Jabs should've been aware of potential repercussions to the reputation of the guild before editing, let alone his own reputation. Regardless, whatever results from scrutiny of parses, be it Cotrex or mine or Sythise or Awkwarder or anyone parsing on this board (Not pointing fingers, JUST examples), if they are editing they should consider the potential repercussions to the various reputations of their respective guilds.

 

Yeah, but I've seen Sythise's best parse on video. That's simple to check against. I've also seen him, and (awkwarder is Full-Mechanics, isn't it?) Zejim parsing in NiM ops and parsing on twitch with parsec open. It's easy enough to verify their claims. But I agree. More should be scrutinized in general. But we shouldn't say "Scrutinize, but not the nice people"

[TACeMossie]

Well i'll get some semi-comparable numbers for Cotrex's gear after tonights raid together on my vanguard and do a 1.5 mill parse and put it here. Its not valid for these leaderboards (on The Harbinger server) so dont go putting it up KBN!

 

Main purpose is my gear is apparently similar to Cotrex's, so we can compare min and max numbers for a good idea for if they were doctored. Maybe.

 

Ill also put an AMR with it.

[Benirons]

Cotrex is not in full 180s any more. I filled in as a tank a couple times for her raid group pub side for NiM and she has gotten a fair number of drops by now I imagine, if not all the pieces from DF. I cannot comment on crit though.

 

I think it would be great for her to create a 100% up to date AMR for her PT and some third party could verify ingame if needed.

 

Then we can do the dmg value calculations with the help of torhead data.

 

I looked at the top two PT/VG parses in comparison, Cotrex' min values r generally lower, naturally due to gear. Max values r dependent on many factors, but they also seem to be mostly in line (keep in mind this was just a brief glance thorugh min max and avg dmg values). She just quite literally got a pile ton of crits on things that matter. Rail shot? what was it, like 8 more? Thats huge. As for her gear not being able to outparse you cause ur min maxed? Well someone in crappy full arkanian could beat the #1 on the leaderboard if everything crits. And yes it has a statistical probability of occuring. Cotrex' got a very luck parse. That MM sniper on the 1 mill pulling almost 4.1k? ***? Look at the crits they explain everything. You have to keep in mind that some of these parses r really out of line due to how lucky some peeps get on occasion. Hence those r not strictly speaking representative of what someone can hope for (just sort of a 1 in a million chance XD).

 

Innocent until proven guilty. Not saying I am giving the benefit of the doublt, but nor am I accusing. My simple take on her parse with a bit of my personal data certainly yields suspicious results, but more in her favour since she lost out on dps. Did she edit her parse? Only Cotrex knows the true answer to that one.

 

Id rather we as a community attempt to probe a bit further to see what is actually going on. I only saw evidence of like 4 people looking at her parse in varying detail or doing additional data gathering to find the root of the problem. When I did my reaserch I turned off my CGC stance to be able to push the dummy into execute phase faster without an extra unnecessary dot for clarity. Somone try with cylinder on maybe? Also it was on the 500k dummy, maybe the 1.5 hates PTs? I do recall that one parse cotrex posted identified her PT as a merc despire all the flamebursts. Odd stuff like that happens.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Benirons

[TACeMossie]

Cotrex is not in full 180s any more. I filled in as a tank a couple times for her raid group pub side for NiM and she has gotten a fair number of drops by now I imagine, if not all the pieces from DF. I cannot comment on crit though.

 

I think it would be great for her to create a 100% up to date AMR for her PT and some third party could verify ingame if needed.

 

Then we can do the dmg value calculations with the help of torhead data.

 

I looked at the top two PT/VG parses in comparison, Cotrex' min values r generally lower, naturally due to gear. Max values r dependent on many factors, but they also seem to be mostly in line (keep in mind this was just a brief glance thorugh min max and avg dmg values). She just quite literally got a pile ton of crits on things that matter. Rail shot? what was it, like 8 more? Thats huge. As for her gear not being able to outparse you cause ur min maxed? Well someone in crappy full arkanian could beat the #1 on the leaderboard if everything crits. And yes it has a statistical probability of occuring. Cotrex' got a very luck parse. That MM sniper on the 1 mill pulling almost 4.1k? ***? Look at the crits they explain everything. You have to keep in mind that some of these parses r really out of line due to how lucky some peeps get on occasion. Hence those r not strictly speaking representative of what someone can hope for (just sort of a 1 in a million chance XD).

 

Innocent until proven guilty. Not saying I am giving the benefit of the doublt, but nor am I accusing. My simple take on her parse with a bit of my personal data certainly yields suspicious results, but more in her favour since she lost out on dps. Did she edit her parse? Only Cotrex knows the true answer to that one.

 

Id rather we as a community attempt to probe a bit further to see what is actually going on. I only saw evidence of like 4 people looking at her parse in varying detail or doing additional data gathering to find the root of the problem. When I did my reaserch I turned off my CGC stance to be able to push the dummy into execute phase faster without an extra unnecessary dot for clarity. Somone try with cylinder on maybe? Also it was on the 500k dummy, maybe the 1.5 hates PTs? I do recall that one parse cotrex posted identified her PT as a merc despire all the flamebursts. Odd stuff like that happens.

 

Dread Master implants, dread touched earpiece, offhand armoring, dread masters headpiece and a few assorted DM mods/enhancements as well as a DT Belt/Bracer, so as I said I have some comparable gear to Cotrex.

 

Now I am like you in treating cotrex as innocent until proven guilty, and im actually doing this so people can see her numbers (though not her crit rate itself) are in line with an average for someone in gear from DF NiM

 

However, for the people on the side of wanting Cotrex burned for being a witch, it will give an approximate time for when the execute bonus would kick in with more normal crit rates.

 

Anyway, its coming in about 5 hours, so dont hang around for it

[TheLukeFactor]

Video of PT/Vanguard's CGC Dots dmg transitioning into execute phase (No relics equipped on either test. Both toons have identical gear, however the powertech has a fleet datacron and the vanguard does not)

 

Given the information shown in the above video... The CGC dot is not required to drop off and be reapplied to get the under 30% execute buff (for both mirror classes)

 

As you can see, as SOON as the HP on the dummy was at or below 30% the dots began to tick 30% harder. Which means the only way the >30% buff to dots could have been delayed by so long in Cotrex' parse, is if the parse was falsified by the damage and crit rates throughout the parse being bumped up.. and the the time of death on the dummy being pushed up 20 seconds earlier (to compensate for more than 1.5m damage) However, by doing this, it threw off the start of the execute phase by 20 or so seconds. Thus explaining the discrepancy

Edited August 7, 2014 by TheLukeFactor

[ML_DoubleTap]

Here's a couple parses of how I think it was altered if it was.

 

First a normal parse: http://www.torparse.com/a/736833/2/0/Overview

And an altered one: http://www.torparse.com/a/737209/2/0/Overview

 

If you look at the altered version the burn phase starts late because I put crits in at the beginning. None of the damage values should be out of whack because I just multiplied a few non-crits by 1.74 and replaced them in the log. It turned my fairly average parse into a 4k.

[MiralukaJedi]

So, other than his confessions, Jaberse was caught (in the World Board thread) because his GCD's and cooldowns were off. He clearly edited his parse to remove some time.

 

20seconds is a pretty good amount to remove if it was edited so if it is edited you people that are analyzing the logs should have no problem finding out where the missing segments are. Instead of hunting for a "this is twenty-seconds short" why not find the where?

 

Jaberse was a rotation ahead in a shorter period which is what caused people to further look at it and find proof. Use the suspicion to find the proof. So do that here. Find out what time seems to be "too short" and what cooldowns aren't right. Or what hits are hitting too high.

 

You're all claiming its twenty-seconds too short, but not finding where the missing seconds are. Find the missing seconds and you'll have your proof as opposed to suspicion.

 

Twenty seconds is a LOT of missing time. Shouldn't be too hard to find a few seconds if it is indeed edited. That's a HUGE gap you're claiming exists.

Edited August 7, 2014 by MiralukaJedi

[ML_DoubleTap]

So, other than his confessions, Jaberse was caught (in the World Board thread) because his GCD's and cooldowns were off. He clearly edited his parse to remove some time.

 

20seconds is a pretty good amount to remove if it was edited so if it is edited you people that are analyzing the logs should have no problem finding out where the missing segments are. Instead of hunting for a "this is twenty-seconds short" why not find the where?

 

Jaberse was a rotation ahead in a shorter period which is what caused people to further look at it and find proof. Use the suspicion to find the proof. So do that here. Find out what time seems to be "too short" and what cooldowns aren't right. Or what hits are hitting too high.

 

You're all claiming its twenty-seconds too short, but not finding where the missing seconds are. Find the missing seconds and you'll have your proof as opposed to suspicion.

 

Twenty seconds is a LOT of missing time. Shouldn't be too hard to find a few seconds if it is indeed edited. That's a HUGE gap you're claiming exists.

 

We did find it. If it was altered it's cropped from the end of the log which is why the execute is far too short. Just like in my sample above.

[TheLukeFactor]

So, other than his confessions, Jaberse was caught (in the World Board thread) because his GCD's and cooldowns were off. He clearly edited his parse to remove some time.

 

20seconds is a pretty good amount to remove if it was edited so if it is edited you people that are analyzing the logs should have no problem finding out where the missing segments are. Instead of hunting for a "this is twenty-seconds short" why not find the where?

 

Jaberse was a rotation ahead in a shorter period which is what caused people to further look at it and find proof. Use the suspicion to find the proof. So do that here. Find out what time seems to be "too short" and what cooldowns aren't right. Or what hits are hitting too high.

 

You're all claiming its twenty-seconds too short, but not finding where the missing seconds are. Find the missing seconds and you'll have your proof as opposed to suspicion.

 

Twenty seconds is a LOT of missing time. Shouldn't be too hard to find a few seconds if it is indeed edited. That's a HUGE gap you're claiming exists.

 

There is no time missing. The editing of the two parses was done differently. The way jabs did it was by using the same amount of abilities, but reducing the time between each activation (however this is easy to detect)

 

Cotrex on the other hand did not change the time of any ability activations. just added more crits to ceratin abilites. However, when using this method. The normal 1.5m damage parse they had, turns into 1.7-1.8 million damage. So to compensate, they have to edit the time of death on the dummy to get the damage dealt back to 1.5m dmg.

 

BUT when they did this, they didn't take into account the sub 30% talent that powertech's have from the non falsified version of the parse. and when the "edited god parse" was cropped down, the execute happened 20 seconds after the parse had "allegedly" entered the sub 30% range.

 

If the parse had not been falsified. the sub 30% buff to the dots. would have happened EXACTLY when the dummy reach 30% HP. No sooner, and certainly no later.

 

I actually did the math, and the parse without any falsifications, would have been somewhere around 4128, instead of the whopping 4354 that it is claimed to be.

Edited August 7, 2014 by TheLukeFactor

[TheLukeFactor]

Here's a couple parses of how I think it was altered if it was.

 

First a normal parse: http://www.torparse.com/a/736833/2/0/Overview

And an altered one: http://www.torparse.com/a/737209/2/0/Overview

 

If you look at the altered version the burn phase starts late because I put crits in at the beginning. None of the damage values should be out of whack because I just multiplied a few non-crits by 1.74 and replaced them in the log. It turned my fairly average parse into a 4k.

 

This is a perfect example of what cotrex has done to her original parse.

[MiralukaJedi]

-Removed due to seeing post above clarifying- Edited August 7, 2014 by MiralukaJedi

[Benirons]

I hate to say it, but yes this does sound pretty convincing. Testing clearly showed on both vanguard and PT that the dots get buffed appropriately. Im sorry Cotrex this type of evidence is hard to argue with. I recommend u dig around a lil bit urself too, but other than that I do not have further authority on the matter.

 

I will leave the decision making up to Tam to determine what shall be done.

 

On a sidenote: this does highlight the scary fact that a parse can apparently be falsified such that the tinkering cannot be detected. Say for pyro/assault the execute phase is shifted to align with where it should be at. If done meticulously well, how would one go about detecting such alterations? And what about ACs that dont have an execute phase at all? Willl we have to submit video recordings of top parses?

Edited August 7, 2014 by Benirons

[TACeMossie]

Here's a couple parses of how I think it was altered if it was.

 

First a normal parse: http://www.torparse.com/a/736833/2/0/Overview

And an altered one: http://www.torparse.com/a/737209/2/0/Overview

 

If you look at the altered version the burn phase starts late because I put crits in at the beginning. None of the damage values should be out of whack because I just multiplied a few non-crits by 1.74 and replaced them in the log. It turned my fairly average parse into a 4k.

 

 

Shame on you Cotrex!

And you would have gotten away with it too, if you didn't ask people to scrutinize your logs

[TheLukeFactor]

Willl we have to submit video recordings of top parses?

 

I would not be opposed to that at all. With all the the uncertainty of the legitimacy of parses these days, video evidence seems to be the only way to PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that a parse was indeed un-tampered with

[Coffee]

I would not be opposed to that at all. With all the the uncertainty of the legitimacy of parses these days, video evidence seems to be the only way to PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that a parse was indeed un-tampered with

 

Yeah, I have already started doing this. If I do get a parse with ridiculous crit or really good RNG, I want proof that I didn't prestack juyo or anything like that.

[xxSHOONYxx]

Glad I woke up to this this morning

 

Rhees that is a very convincing argument, one that I'm not sure I can top given my little experience in parses and logs.

And it seems people (*cough* proper villains) are ready to crucify me for something I did not do. It's scary that altering a log can make it look like something that happened irl.

 

Regardless, if Tam and the community feel that Rhees' argument trumps my word, then I'll abide by it (even though it's ******** ) I have not altered a single log in my career here, and I'm sad to see it be stricken down along with my reputation. If you feel the need to perma-ban me for the sake of ....something...then whatevs, I'll comply.

 

I know I did not cheat, but in the face of such opposition, I'm not sure what good that will do me. If I'm to be banned, Gkicked, and have my name drug through the mud for something I did not do,then I don't know. I'll leave that up to Tam. But this is ********

 

 

Shame on you Cotrex!

And you would have gotten away with it too, if you didn't ask people to scrutinize your logs

I invited scrutiny because I know it wasn't altered, I'm not sure what it means that he can make a doctored log look like mine, but I did not think that my log would be branded as false (since it wasn't).

 

Im sorry Cotrex this type of evidence is hard to argue with. I recommend u dig around a lil bit urself too, but other than that I do not have further authority on the matter.

It is and I will continue to dig around and see if I can find what's going on, but it seems I have already been branded a cheater and even if I do find out what's wrong with it I'll keep that brand.

Edited August 7, 2014 by xxSHOONYxx