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Minimum HP for new ops?


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I know health points aren't a clear indicator on how well a player is geared but when you're putting together PuG ops, looking at the raid frame can give you a clue on whether someone is massively undergeared for the op. For example before 2.0 the gear requirement for TFB SM was columi, now I'm not going to be a gear snob and require everyone to of had BH but if I seen someone who joined the group with 15k HP I'd know that they would probably be worth removing unless they were getting another alt or changing gear.

 

Now for 2.0 the bar has been raised higher but how high?

 

Here's what I think are the minimums before you start asking questions/inspecting players gear:

 

DPS/Healers: 24K HP

 

Tanks: 29K HP

 

I believe if you got less than that amount of hp then you probably still wearing a lot of black hole which doesn't quite cut it for the new ops.

 

Anyone think that's too tight?

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Is HP really that great of an indicator anymore? Lots of the new gear seems very heavy on Endurance, regardless of class or spec, to the detriment of other stats.

 

^

 

I've inspected quite a few 55s with absolute garbage gear, mostly Basic / Black Market / Arkanian with heavy endurance and poor secondary stats.

 

Of course it isn't totally their fault, gear itemization at 55 right now is crap for almost every class. And for some, it actually gets worse the better the gear (more endurance and less main / sec stat going to an Ultimate piece over an Elite).

 

If you want to set minimums, I'd look for other stats to measure and actually inspect the players.

Edited by DawnAskham
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Honestly for SM TFB dreadguard gear is plenty if you have your secondary stats set up right. My guild did a full tfb sm run with only 1 of our tanks in more then 63 gear. But we were Optimized in that 63 gear from before 2.0
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I believe if you got less than that amount of hp then you probably still wearing a lot of black hole which doesn't quite cut it for the new ops.

Lol. 61s are plenty for SM TFB and SM S&V.

 

Itemised 63s can clear HM TFB and the first six bosses of HM S&V.

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Lol. 61s are plenty for SM TFB and SM S&V.

 

Itemised 63s can clear HM TFB and the first six bosses of HM S&V.

 

The thread is more for expectations of everyday PuG's rather than what experienced raiders can do, for example on olok with the droids while 2k DPS is achievable in itemized 61's can you really expect just every BH geared PuG to be hitting the 2k required (in story mode) to clear the droids off each line in a minute (going by the 500k a line rule) in just black hole?

 

I think it's asking too much to accept people two tiers under the recommended gear level (156) when forming a group, problem is we are probably used to seeing people over 20K HP in the raid frame and thinking they are geared enough for any content however now on 2.0 I'm thinking 20K HP is the new "15K HP" if you get my drift?

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The thread is more for expectations of everyday PuG's rather than what experienced raiders can do, for example on olok with the droids while 2k DPS is achievable in itemized 61's can you really expect just every BH geared PuG to be hitting the 2k required (in story mode) to clear the droids off each line in a minute (going by the 500k a line rule) in just black hole?

 

I think it's asking too much to accept people two tiers under the recommended gear level (156) when forming a group, problem is we are probably used to seeing people over 20K HP in the raid frame and thinking they are geared enough for any content however now on 2.0 I'm thinking 20K HP is the new "15K HP" if you get my drift?

 

Very much so, though you have to be much more aware of other stats now as so much of the gear available is heavy endurance with lots of junk secondary stats.

 

From what I've seen, looking at someones HP isn't going to tell you much there as doesn't seem to be a strong correlation between performance and HP, other than at the extreme low end (e.g. so little HP it is clear they don't even have 61 / 63 gear).

 

On the other hand, I see a strong correlation between good performance and having people in optimized gear, even if a goof bit of their mods are 61 / 63, and a strong correlation between average to low performance and people wearing whatever non-optimized crap itemization gear Bioware stuck on the vendors or loot tables.

 

For me, I'll take players in mostly optimized gear sets, even those with a good bit of older gear mods and having lower HP, over players with a lot of HP wearing all new gear that is stock / non-optimized.

 

I just find a very strong correlation between performance and gear optimization that suggests players with the ability and willingness to optimize will also be players that will perform better in an Operation.

 

And right now, optimized players may easily have several K less HP than non-optimized players.

Edited by DawnAskham
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Looking at HP isn't a great indicator, but not a completely terrible one either.

 

Tanks mitigation have been severely cut back, and they now rely a lot more on focused heals and a large health pool... so when I see a level 55 tank, with 27k HP pop into a HM FP or Op in the GF, it typically means he is in 61/63s and likely has extremely low mitigation, so unless the healer(s) in the group is decently geared, it's going to be a struggle. I ran a HM Mando Raiders on my DPS Merc last night, with a fresh 55 Assassin with 27k HP, with a full 66/69 healer, and the tank was getting hit SO hard that in most pulls, in addition to my dps, i was doing between 350-550 HPS just to help the healer keep the tank alive. Translate that to TfB or S&V? And it might equal a non-starter.

 

On the flipside of that, your DPS/Heals at 24k? That is not too far off from what they will have in level 50 raiding gear just by hitting 55. The problem won't be their HP. It will be secondary stats. Critical/Surge/Accuracy take a HUGE hit leveling from 50 to 55. I know my Merc lost 10% (at least) both Crit and Surge in full Campaign/Dread Guard while leveling to 55, and my accuracy dropped about 4%. That is a MUCH bigger deal than how many hitpoints I have. Now, I still have my WH/DG relics, DG Chest, and a few random 61 enhancements in my build, but everything else is 66/69, (few of my 66's are blues, so don't be misled) and I have 29k HP (and I am using all Reflex armorings, and no letter mods), with 2,729 Aim.... But since I still have some old enhancements, my Accuracy is still 98%, my buffed Crit is just barely 25%, and my Surge is only 63.5%. So while my HP pool may make me appear to be "holy moley that guy is geared!" I still have a long way to go with itemization to get my secondary stats where I want them. It's even a bigger deal for healers. (I will use Sages as a comparison, because that is what i play.) As I am leveling my sage, watching especially my Crit go down, I am witnessing Healing Trance crit less and less. Which is huge, because it's one of the main staples of my healing rotation, and the crits on it proc my "free" Noble Sacrifice and the ability to instant-cast Salvation... so low crit on a healing sage/sorc is kind of a big deal, and that won't be something you see by looking at someone's HP.

 

Just my 2credits.

Edited by Ocho-Quatro
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My guild cleared Scum and Villany on SM in basically 63 gear on all, with a few 61 pieces mixed in on a few toons here and there. Our tanks were at about 32-33K hp. After that run and with everyone running the new FP's, we have everyone in a mix of 63 and 69 gear and we are blasting through SM with ease. The focus seems to be much more about mechanics in this new op then shear use of gear to overpower the content, which I personally enjoy.
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My guild cleared Scum and Villany on SM in basically 63 gear on all, with a few 61 pieces mixed in on a few toons here and there. Our tanks were at about 32-33K hp. After that run and with everyone running the new FP's, we have everyone in a mix of 63 and 69 gear and we are blasting through SM with ease. The focus seems to be much more about mechanics in this new op then shear use of gear to overpower the content, which I personally enjoy.

 

I cannot argue, that in just about any fight that is not a pure Tank'n'Spank "DPS Race" --- Skill > Gear almost every time. Mechanics heavy fights, and fights that require a lot of team coordination and situational awareness are far more dependent on the person at the keyboard moreso than the gear score of the character.

 

That said.... I could be wrong, but I am fairly certain that a level 55 tank in "basically 63 gear" is not going to have 32-33k HP, unless maybe they are stacked for endurance with letter-mods and fortitude augments? in which case, that is even more sacrificed mitigation on an already reduced return rate in the 2.0 world. Like I said, I could be wrong, but I am fairly certain that level 55 tanks aren't hitting 33k in 63s.

Edited by Ocho-Quatro
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I ran a HM Mando Raiders on my DPS Merc last night, with a fresh 55 Assassin with 27k HP, with a full 66/69 healer, and the tank was getting hit SO hard that in most pulls, in addition to my dps, i was doing between 350-550 HPS just to help the healer keep the tank alive. Translate that to TfB or S&V? And it might equal a non-starter.

Actually, TFB and S&V are much less punishing on the tanks than HM FPs right now.

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I cannot argue, that in just about any fight that is not a pure Tank'n'Spank "DPS Race" --- Skill > Gear almost every time. Mechanics heavy fights, and fights that require a lot of team coordination and situational awareness are far more dependent on the person at the keyboard moreso than the gear score of the character.

 

That said.... I could be wrong, but I am fairly certain that a level 55 tank in "basically 63 gear" is not going to have 32-33k HP, unless maybe they are stacked for endurance with letter-mods and fortitude augments? in which case, that is even more sacrificed mitigation on an already reduced return rate in the 2.0 world. Like I said, I could be wrong, but I am fairly certain that level 55 tanks aren't hitting 33k in 63s.

 

 

Hmm, no 33k in mostly 63s sounds about right. That's what our shadow had tonight and that's mostly what he's still wearing. Shadows get that big endurance boost though.

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Hmm, no 33k in mostly 63s sounds about right. That's what our shadow had tonight and that's mostly what he's still wearing. Shadows get that big endurance boost though.

 

Shadows don't get a huge endurance boost, only 3% from the tree and 25 from Shadows Training, most Shadow tank gear was previously itemized to be high endurance and ideal Shadow tank stats (as per KBN's work) involved ~28k HP. Add in the HP boost from gaining 5 levels and 30k sounds about right for a Shadow. Quite high for the other 2 tanks though. My Guardian didn't crack 30k stimmed until I had 2 or 3 69 pieces but I was also mostly mitigation stacked with only had 24.5k HP unstimmed at 50.

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Shadows don't get a huge endurance boost, only 3% from the tree and 25 from Shadows Training, most Shadow tank gear was previously itemized to be high endurance and ideal Shadow tank stats (as per KBN's work) involved ~28k HP. Add in the HP boost from gaining 5 levels and 30k sounds about right for a Shadow. Quite high for the other 2 tanks though. My Guardian didn't crack 30k stimmed until I had 2 or 3 69 pieces but I was also mostly mitigation stacked with only had 24.5k HP unstimmed at 50.

 

My juggernaut in full 66 (though crafted mods/armorings/enhancements) with Black Market MK-2 implant and the Rakata stim is at 30,5 k health. And no, I did not sacrifice mitigation, as I'm only 60 defense from ideal tanking spreadsheet.

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My juggernaut in full 66 (though crafted mods/armorings/enhancements) with Black Market MK-2 implant and the Rakata stim is at 30,5 k health. And no, I did not sacrifice mitigation, as I'm only 60 defense from ideal tanking spreadsheet.

 

I fully admit at this point I'm no where near optimized. I've just been upgrading the bits as I get the from drops.

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S&V is a complete joke on both HM8 and especially 16HM, I feel like you could do this ops in tioneese gear for all it matters. Way to easy bioware.

 

I take it you got world 1st without ever wiping, considering how easy you found it?

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I take it you got world 1st without ever wiping, considering how easy you found it?

 

No? But clearing most of the fights first try with people that have never even done story mode? The fact that this was cleared day 1 xpac went out with no gear grind is just sad. How does bioware expect this content to last? TFB NM or another new raid better be around the corner.

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My Vanguard tank is pretty much optimized with all 69's including mods and enhancments except 2 armorings that are dps cause I run FP alot and a couple pieces dont drop the armorings for tanks.

 

I have 34k hps

 

The biggest difference currently is the mitigation. Im about 10% off of what I had pre 2.0 as far as shield chance and shield absorb without counting like using blast and a relic.

 

Geared Like I am right now running FP's is super easy and I can hard carry an undergeared healer.

 

I managed to get to HM operator in TFB

Have yet to do S&V but I suspect I can do sm clear and possibly do hm

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As a Sentinel, I can tell you that HP is not a very good indicator of effectiveness for dps. A lot of our gear comes standard with Guardian Armorings (the high-endurance version), instead of Might Armorings (the high-strength version). Some of our gear also has the -A or -B mods, which also have more endurance than we want.

 

End result: a dps in optimized gear should have noticeably lower health than one in un-optimized gear of the same level.

 

 

However, I can tell you one thing: 21k health is definitely not enough for a tank. Last night, a few guild members and I had to pug for a tank. We ended up getting this guy in Recruit gear who had less health than both dps. We were feeling generous, so we gave him a shot, but ended up kicking after he couldn't hold agro or stay alive.

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FYI, on my Powertech, I have a full set of 162/69 from HM FP drops, only one or two MK-9 augments installed so far, and I have 32k-33k health, can't remember the exact number. We start Scum & Villainy Tuesday and I feel like I'll be fine.
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In about 75% 69, and 25% 66... my arsenal mercenary is sitting on 30.4k... However, I am thinking about ripping 2 of my non-set bonus 69 armorings, and sticking my DGs back in there, losing a little End/Aim but picking at least my 2-set bonus back up.
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