[Guide] Sage DPS (TK + Balance) 2.0+

[Kindran]

Excellent work, one thing I wanted to point out though.

 

For your Lightning (Telekenetics) spec, you have 2 points to Reserves (Mental Longevity) and none to Lightning Spire (Mind's Eye), which I believe to be a dps loss.

 

It may not get a lot of use, but the 35 meter range is useful for certain fights and situations (examples: 1. You're on Dread Guard and placed 30-35 meters from Heirad for Lightning Field. 2. You get knocked back to 40 meters from a boss and have an instant Chain Lightning (Telekinetic Wave) proc up, you can cast that once you get to 35 meters and be within 30 meters by the time gcd is off ).

 

Considering that I have never come close to running out of force, the extra 100 force from the skill tree is just not necessary when there's something you could get more use out of.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Many talent points that do not directly increase dps are up to each individual based on what they prefer.

 

A huge thing many people do not realize is that the 35 meter range can be nice, but it can also hurt you. Since the talent does not increase WM / MC / TkT you may not realize you are over 30 meters away when you use one of those abilities. When this happens it will be a dps loss by the time you realize whats going on.

[KTap]

Many talent points that do not directly increase dps are up to each individual based on what they prefer.

 

A huge thing many people do not realize is that the 35 meter range can be nice, but it can also hurt you. Since the talent does not increase WM / MC / TkT you may not realize you are over 30 meters away when you use one of those abilities. When this happens it will be a dps loss by the time you realize whats going on.

 

It's very simple to check your range by looking at it or seeing that most of your attacks aren't cast-able.

 

My point is, that even if you use it once in the entire life span of your character, it's a dps gain (as long as you pay attention) over an extra 100 force.

Edited July 1, 2013 by KTap

[Nibbon]

It's very simple to check your range by looking at it or seeing that most of your attacks aren't cast-able.

 

My point is, that even if you use it once in the entire life span of your character, it's a dps gain (as long as you pay attention) over an extra 100 force.

 

It is really not worth arguing over, do whatever you want. However, saying it is a DPS gain is pretty ridiculous - I cannot think of a single fight where the 35 meter range would make a real tangible difference, including DG.

[Gondolindhrim]

I find Mind's Eye helpful when I'm on sniper duty on Thrasher. Hardly matters either way anywhere else though, maybe a slight advantage on Operator IX since you could hit a core with TK Wave while getting into range for the rest of your abilities. Edited July 4, 2013 by Gondolindhrim

[KTap]

It is really not worth arguing over, do whatever you want. However, saying it is a DPS gain is pretty ridiculous - I cannot think of a single fight where the 35 meter range would make a real tangible difference, including DG.

 

Ok, well personally I've used it plenty of times and it's a dps increase for me.

 

Excellent work besides that minor thing though, keep it up

[theRaiders]

Hey Nibbon-

 

What is the proper method to cut the last 5 seconds, etc. off the actual combat log? I tried the method you posted on the DPS leader board and it would cut the whole fight and not show the parse I wanted at all...

 

Also, did you cut the last few seconds of your 2800+ parse, or does that represent the end secomds of lag of parsing?

[Nibbon]

Hey Nibbon-

 

What is the proper method to cut the last 5 seconds, etc. off the actual combat log? I tried the method you posted on the DPS leader board and it would cut the whole fight and not show the parse I wanted at all...

 

Also, did you cut the last few seconds of your 2800+ parse, or does that represent the end secomds of lag of parsing?

 

I cut it to where my DPS was the highest at the end. I upload an unedited log to torparse - then I use its analytic tools to find the highest spot - I see how many seconds it is form the start inside the actual log and cut it to where the obvious point is on that burst (almost always on a force in balance, with a couple exceptions [like a disturbance crit next to dot ticks]). You then delete everything after that and change the end time (exit combat) to the same time as your last damaging attack.

 

The alternate way is to just use the "by time" on torparse and cut it that way, but it is less precise.

[theRaiders]

Got it to work - it was all about ensuring the line where we would end combat was the last one, which i apparently didn't pay attention to the first times I tried doing this lol...

 

Thanks man!!

[Sightx]

when do you use project as tk? Edited July 10, 2013 by Sightx
more info

[Nibbon]

when do you use project as tk?

 

Situationally when you are moving and have nothing instant to cast (TK Wave / refresh dot)

[Kindran]

when do you use project as tk?

 

Depending on how you play its almost worth it to spec for other utility talents and forgo project all together. In end tier raiding yes dps matters, but you can get by without using project at all and you have the extra utility to help your raid even more

[chibiseira]

Got another balance rotation for y'all to try out:

MC-WM-SF-TT-TT-FiB-TT-TT, repeat. Dots fall off right on time, nothing clips, and best part no force issues ever, plus the proc is almost always going to be up for MC. I also use the 3/7 tree rather than 5/5, though sounds like that's almost personal preference - it seems to get higher dps on this rotation, but I always say go with what works for you. I like this rotation, but let me know how it works for you!

Edited July 13, 2013 by chibiseira

[Kindran]

Got another balance rotation for y'all to try out:

MC-WM-SF-TT-TT-FiB-TT-TT, repeat. Dots fall off right on time, nothing clips, and best part no force issues ever, plus the proc is almost always going to be up for MC. I also use the 3/7 tree rather than 5/5, though sounds like that's almost personal preference - it seems to get higher dps on this rotation, but I always say go with what works for you. I like this rotation, but let me know how it works for you!

 

Your rotation has you use MC and FiB 1.5 seconds after it has been off cooldown. This will make you lose a full MC and FiB every 150 seconds. You will also be clipping the last tick off of your DoTs as you refresh them every 16.5 seconds rather than 18 seconds.

 

This ends up making you lose a full TkT worth of damage every 108 seconds and a full tick of WM/SF every 33 seconds. Overall you have the potential to lose about 6k damage every 108 seconds (56 dps), about 2.2k damage every 33 seconds (67 dps), and about 15k damage every 150 seconds (100 dps).

 

Another problem with this is you never use Disturbance. Replacing a TkT with Disturbance grants you an extra 500-600 damage every time you use a Proc'd Disturbance. This comes out to be about a 30 dps loss.

 

All of this together comes to be a total of 253 dps loss on average.

 

Also, if you play Balance spec you will never have a set rotation. This is due to the fact that your DoTs last 18 seconds and FiB/MC have a 15 second cooldown.

 

Here is an example:

WM>SF>TkT>MC>FiB>TkT>Dist>TkT

TkT>WM>SF>MC>FiB>TkT>Dist>TkT

TkT>MC>FiB>WM>SF>TkT>Dist>TkT

TkT>MC>FiB>TkT>WM>SF>TkT>Dist

TkT>MC>FiB>TkT>TkT>WM>SF>TkT

Dist>MC>FiB>TkT>Dist>TkT>Dist>WM>SF

 

*Subject to change depending on PoM procs and total Alacrity %.*

*Alacrity has the chance to go from base Alacrity up to an additional 29% at times throughout the fight*

Edited July 13, 2013 by Kindran

[Nibbon]

Got another balance rotation for y'all to try out:

MC-WM-SF-TT-TT-FiB-TT-TT, repeat. Dots fall off right on time, nothing clips, and best part no force issues ever, plus the proc is almost always going to be up for MC. I also use the 3/7 tree rather than 5/5, though sounds like that's almost personal preference - it seems to get higher dps on this rotation, but I always say go with what works for you. I like this rotation, but let me know how it works for you!

 

What Kindran said above is right. You will lose a good amount of DPS by maintaining a rotation like the one you describe - I'm not sure if the actual amount he posted is correct, but I doubt it is far off. In any case, I wouldn't bring in someone to a raid that maintained a rotation like this since they are not utilizing their full potential. That being said, I am sure a sage that does not go into Nightmare raid that is looking for a set rotation can follow this and be useful.

[SteveCo]

I've been running sage dps since HM TFB launched last year. Here is my 2 cents on the strongest rotation to maximize dps for the basic rotation.

 

I always start with tk throw. Once I get my presence of mind proc, FIB>MC>WM>SF>Tk throw. Rinse repeat.

 

Reason behind this, force in balance and mind crush have the same cooldown. So when you blow your fib and ur mind crush instantly after, they are 1 global apart. or 1 second to be precise. Both dots have 18 second durations. So when you hit your force in balance, your weaken mind has gotten in about 12-13 seconds of dot damage. by the time you re-apply it, its gotten about 15-16 seconds. and sf is about the same since it has the global of weaken mind to go through. This basically streamlines the time between dot management to maximize the amount of time you have to tk throw/disturbance. Not waste globals in between applying dots etc.

 

Its what i've been doing and it works perfectly in terms of overall dps output.

 

I understand you lose some damage by not letting the 2 18 second dots get full rotations in. However, if you have to interrupt tk throw to apply dots you lose a lot more dps then the 1 second of reapplying the dot. and if you wait for the tk throws to finish, then you go a window of time with the dots not being applied. the other thing is that most rotations have you guys applying force in balance after dots. Which means you are losing the extra percent of dot damage that force suppression supplies for the ticks that happen before your force in balance. FiB should always be the priority due to the increase in damage to your dots.

Edited July 17, 2013 by SteveCo

[Nibbon]

I always start with tk throw. Once I get my presence of mind proc, FIB>MC>WM>SF>Tk throw. Rinse repeat.

 

Same thing as above, running a set rotation is not the way to go. If it works for you and you feel your DPS is adequate, fine, but otherwise you are still cutting yourself short.

 

As a general note - if you truly believe you have something better (in terms of increasing DPS, not making it easier) then I encourage you to post. But if you do, I also ask you, post a parse so we can actually make a comparison. I have posted plenty of parses proving what I say can put out good DPS - but no one has bothered supporting theirs.

[Whattie]

Pro-Sages... question:

 

for current NiM, which spec performs better? Tk or Balance?

 

i'm Always been a balance sage, or hybrid. You can find me top5 sages anywhere on Torparse.

 

my guildies insist that TK is better... i cant find any evidence on that.

 

do you?

[Nibbon]

Pro-Sages... question:

 

for current NiM, which spec performs better? Tk or Balance?

 

i'm Always been a balance sage, or hybrid. You can find me top5 sages anywhere on Torparse.

 

my guildies insist that TK is better... i cant find any evidence on that.

 

do you?

 

Whattie - I've always seen you up top on the parses. Obviously you are a good Sage and there aren't that many who top you. So I say, who in the world is more qualified to tell you what to do than yourself? Personally, I run Balance for everything and do just fine. A guildmate of mine sometimes switches to TK and sees marginal differences in either direction.

[chibiseira]

Pro-Sages... question:

 

for current NiM, which spec performs better? Tk or Balance?

 

i'm Always been a balance sage, or hybrid. You can find me top5 sages anywhere on Torparse.

 

my guildies insist that TK is better... i cant find any evidence on that.

 

do you?

 

NOT calling myself pro. But based on our guild's best. If you're standing still doing dps on the dummy, sure, TK will slightly outperform. Slightly. But in ops, you'll have more mobility with balance and probably get better numbers with it. Sage in general =/= mobile, but take what advantage you can get. (If you're very conscientious of when you'll have to move and you can proc instants at the right time, you can play TK about as well even in ops. That said, it's gonna be harder to still put up the good numbers anywhere with movement.)

 

Whatever you're more comfortable with is what's going to give you the highest numbers regardless. But if you're equally comfortable on both, that's my two cents.

[Kindran]

Pro-Sages... question:

 

for current NiM, which spec performs better? Tk or Balance?

 

i'm Always been a balance sage, or hybrid. You can find me top5 sages anywhere on Torparse.

 

my guildies insist that TK is better... i cant find any evidence on that.

 

do you?

 

I run mainly Balance for NiM progression, but I do tend to switch to TK every few pulls just to keep it fresh just as Nibbin has said above. TBH it mainly depends on if you are required to offheal a lot or not. As TK has better force management it is easier to switch to and from healing during a fight.

 

Each boss has their differences and I have not seen a fight where one spec trumps the other. It really depends on how well you play for each spec. Balance is perfectly viable and as good as Tk for fights. For instance, on our last Titan-6 16man NiM kill we had Balance Sages at the number 1 and 3 spots for dps.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Kindran

[Eraoc]

Pro-Sages... question:

 

for current NiM, which spec performs better? Tk or Balance?

 

i'm Always been a balance sage, or hybrid. You can find me top5 sages anywhere on Torparse.

 

my guildies insist that TK is better... i cant find any evidence on that.

 

do you?

 

In my experience it's more the player than the spec when choosing between TK and Balance. Certain fights in theory should favor one spec or the other, however in actual practice I haven't found this to be the case.

 

I currently run TK in our 16 man NiM and am usually top dps in our raids. However when I switch to balance my dps is average at best, simply because the playstyle seems awkward to me.

[JDotter]

Each are viable. I've killed all current bosses in NM some heavily favor balance some TK. Overall it comes down to what you play best.

 

I'll personally be messing around more with TK for styrak. The KB root is killer during a certain phase and offers a lot more dmg for the 12-15 second phases that are NM stryak.

 

My issue with TK is its proc based and I can't stand that oh and spamming lightning strike as filler feels beyond awkward

Edited July 18, 2013 by JDotter

[OlosBC]

I recently came back to the game and have a couple questions for clarification on madness/balance.

 

 

Is the precast CD/MC no longer used bowl that wrath is 35% increase?

 

Why do you prioritize AF/WM over CT/SF? From what I've seen, they tick for the same amount, but with CT getting an extra tick over the duration.

 

How much of a DPS loss is it to just cast CD/MC with DF/FiB? With the increase to 15 stacks it seems to not be as big of a deal to have them used on CD/MC.

 

Thanks!

[Nibbon]

Is the precast CD/MC no longer used bowl that wrath is 35% increase?

 

Why do you prioritize AF/WM over CT/SF? From what I've seen, they tick for the same amount, but with CT getting an extra tick over the duration.

 

How much of a DPS loss is it to just cast CD/MC with DF/FiB? With the increase to 15 stacks it seems to not be as big of a deal to have them used on CD/MC.

 

Thanks!

 

Yeah, I did not find the precast MC to be worth it.

 

WM is casted before FiB and SF is cast after FiB for the opening rotation. The effect is that they both get the increased damage on their first ticks. You need to refresh them when they fall off, so WM remains first the whole way through.

 

MC will take some of the FiB stacks - but it is best to let it have a few as possible. I've found that the difference is pretty substantial, but don't have any math to back that up - just experience.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Nibbon

[OlosBC]

Cool will try to play around with it. I was still doing the precast CD in my parses (all fairly ******, still in mostly 63 gear and not accuracy capped) and it seemed underwhelming, though still pulling off tanks on the opener for most bosses in the new flashpoints.

 

I'm still unsure about the CD/DF timing thing though. The most ticks of AFF/CT you'd get in the 15s of DF is 10, maybe 11, and the other 4-5 would go to CD. And the least you'd get would be 7, with all 8 ticks of CD being buffed. With the noncrit difference between the two being, what, 200-250?, total damage variance would be like 250-300 depending on crits, every 30 seconds, or 20 DPS.

 

However, I think maybe having your instant abilities more spaced out may help, as it would allow you to mor reliably deal with movement as it comes up.

 

Anyway, thanks for the reply, and sorry about the rambling while I'm here at work and not able to get in game.