[Guide] Sage DPS (TK + Balance) 2.0+

[ingenuityfails]

If you guys had to estimate your average parse under the following conditions:

- Balance/Madness

- full 72

- no adrenals

Around what numbers would you be looking at?

 

Because other than a boundless ages relic and the last armouring for my 4-set bonus, I'm full 72. I'm also stingy and so cbf'd wasting adrenals against a combat dummy. And my average parse sits between 2575-2650. I'm following the opening rotation and priority list found on the first page on this thread, but I feel like in comparison (to the numbers I'm seeing around) my dps should be higher, probably due to inconsistency with Disturbance, needing to tighten up my timing on offensive cooldowns a little bit, and putting in a crit mod or two since I have been subscribing to the 0 crit theory.

 

Speaking of inconsistency with Disturbance, I've had a quick browse of some of your parses Nibbon, and (this could be wrong, it's just my interpretation) it looks like when you get Presence of Mind, even if your Mind Crush only has 1-2 seconds left on it's cooldown, you'll still spend PoM on a Disturbance. Is that correct? Because right now I'm leaving myself a safety margin of 2.5-3 seconds, since relying on a single TkT to give you PoM in time for Mind Crush feels really sketchy, and I'm wondering if that could be another thing holding me back.

Edited September 7, 2013 by ingenuityfails

[Nibbon]

If you guys had to estimate your average parse under the following conditions:

- Balance/Madness

- full 72

- no adrenals

Around what numbers would you be looking at?

 

Because other than a boundless ages relic and the last armouring for my 4-set bonus, I'm full 72. I'm also stingy and so cbf'd wasting adrenals against a combat dummy. And my average parse sits between 2575-2650. I'm following the opening rotation and priority list found on the first page on this thread, but I feel like in comparison (to the numbers I'm seeing around) my dps should be higher, probably due to inconsistency with Disturbance, needing to tighten up my timing on offensive cooldowns a little bit, and putting in a crit mod or two since I have been subscribing to the 0 crit theory.

 

Speaking of inconsistency with Disturbance, I've had a quick browse of some of your parses Nibbon, and (this could be wrong, it's just my interpretation) it looks like when you get Presence of Mind, even if your Mind Crush only has 1-2 seconds left on it's cooldown, you'll still spend PoM on a Disturbance. Is that correct? Because right now I'm leaving myself a safety margin of 2.5-3 seconds, since relying on a single TkT to give you PoM in time for Mind Crush feels really sketchy, and I'm wondering if that could be another thing holding me back.

 

You might be saving yourself a slightly too large margin for PoM on MC. Otherwise, it is probably the right thing to do. Without adrenals I'd probably expect a 2730 average - I think that boundless ages is probably the best relic too and costing you another 20 dps or so - so you aren't too far off from the 2710 you should be hitting - that is just an estimate. My guess is, on average I'd hit 2800-2850 with adrenal and full min-max.

[Felkroth]

Here is what I'm seeing.

 

I am a Gunslinger main that has cleared NiM TFB with the timed title, and is presently working on NiM Styrak. I do well on the parse (obviously for two reasons...1 being gunslinger, and 2 being NiM mostly accomplished). Anyway...

 

I have a Sage DPS TK spec'd alt, 20ish% Crit, 109 Accuracy, 71% Surge, and 1475 Bonus Dmg...Roughly off the top of my head. So its not BiS, but its also not half bad. The spec is correct, the rotation is pretty flawless imo.

 

 

Anyway, we ran some HM stuff on alts. Our Shadow DPS in our main group is probably the single best Shadow DPS worldwide, as evidenced by NiM parsing, Torparse, etc. So he's just a super talented player in general.....So he has a Gunslinger alt which was in a nasty mix of 61s, 63s, and one or two pieces of 69s. Honestly bad bad gear.

 

Anyway. These two dps alts walk into HM TFB, from two mostly accomplished NiM raiders (although I conceed that he is a FAR better player than I am...I bow to him) But his crappy geared Gunslinger proceeds to outparse the HECK out of my decently/pretty alright geared Sage DPS.

 

Like, outparse the HECK out of my Sage deeps. I honestly can't remember exact numbers, but like Dreadguards where we both got pretty lucky with Doom....I think he ended up with like 3k (Sharpshooter) (we just group em up and fluff HM for the fun of it, so the numbers will be high regardless)...but I was probably at like 2.6k.

 

Also, on a complete side note, the Sage rotation is super clunky kinda like how Sharpshooter was pre-2.0.

 

 

IDK, I like my Sage, I just don't like the results I get on the parse.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Felkroth

[ingenuityfails]

You might be saving yourself a slightly too large margin for PoM on MC. Otherwise, it is probably the right thing to do. Without adrenals I'd probably expect a 2730 average - I think that boundless ages is probably the best relic too and costing you another 20 dps or so - so you aren't too far off from the 2710 you should be hitting - that is just an estimate. My guess is, on average I'd hit 2800-2850 with adrenal and full min-max.

 

. Thank you.

[LosevV]

I need a little help with my Sage. I'm up him around 3 mouth ago and finally gear him in full Verpine. But in Torparse I cant go more then 2610 dps vs Training Dummy (In the end when I wait for exit from combat dps low to ~2570), so I need a little (More better "big") advice.

My rotation

MC (Use on cd) --> All borst (Then I use them on cd) --> WM --> Turbulence (Use on cd) --> Disturbulence --> Then on proc TT and TW (with FP, if FP don't on cd).

My gear

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/da7820b3-fb71-48df-b9c0-ddf8462a393e

I change build a little, because I already have 20.51% critical chance, I threw 3 more skill points in Balance

Torparse

http://www.torparse.com/a/416546/2/0/Damage+Dealt

P.S. Sorry about my bad English.

Edited September 8, 2013 by LosevV

[Nibbon]

I will update the actual guide later - but for those wondering these are my prelim results for the new tier:

 

TK: 4 surge, 2 alacrity, 4 accuracy, 61 crit (so, one mod/enhancement worth)

Sage: 4 surge, 2 alacrity, 4 accuracy, 185 crit

 

WP augments still the best

 

I threw this together in a hurry so I need to double check for mistakes before I update the guide. For those wondering - this puts our accuracy/miss chance pretty low/high at 99.27 - I checked if accuracy augments would fit in instead of WP - and they dont. If you cannot live with such a high miss chance (I don't blame you) - switch the 1 alacrity enhancement into accuracy - though this will put you way over the cap - alternatively you can trade 1 wp augment for 1 accuracy augment, which is less of a DPS hit but still leaves you at 99.67. For balance, trading enhancements is a very small DPS hit (literally 1 DPS) and only a tad larger for TK (around 3). Trading 1 augment is closer to .6-.7 for each.

[AlixMV]

I recently parsed my Madness spec'ed Sorc in a mix of purple 66/BM 69s and a few Augs and...okay, his DPS was terrible. Like crawl under a rock bad.

 

I'm sure it's my rotation that's messed up, so pulling out Nibbon's suggested Madness rotation:

AF --> DF --> CT --> FL --> CD (off proc) --> FL --> LS (wrath procced, if CD isn't near ready)

 

From there - it is DF off cooldown, keep AF and CT up always, usually you can put in one LS before you need to refresh CD

 

Which if I'm translating correctly, is:

 

Affliction --> Death Field --> Creeping Terror --> Force Lightning --> Crushing Darkness (off proc) --> Force Lightning --> Lightning Strike (wrath procced, if Crushing Darkness isn't near ready)

 

From there - it is Death Field off cooldown, keep Affliction and Creeping Terror up always, usually you can put in one Lightning Strike before you need to refresh Crushing Darkness

 

It looks like my rotation was vastly diffferent than Nibbon's current suggestions, but the one thing I'm noticing there versus my own parses is how Shock/Project appears to be missing--when it crit'ed in my parses (and it did so a lot), I got boatloads of DPS out of it. It also tends to be my go-to power that I can use while on the move, since it doesn't have to be channeled.

 

So my question is: why isn't it listed, and if it is supposed to be used, where does it fit in?

Edited September 10, 2013 by AlixMV

[Nibbon]

I recently parsed my Madness spec'ed Sorc in a mix of purple 66/BM 69s and a few Augs and...okay, his DPS was terrible. Like crawl under a rock bad.

 

I'm sure it's my rotation that's messed up, so pulling out Nibbon's suggested Madness rotation:

 

 

Which if I'm translating correctly, is:

 

 

 

It looks like my rotation was vastly diffferent than Nibbon's current suggestions, but the one thing I'm noticing there versus my own parses is how Shock/Project appears to be missing--when it crit'ed in my parses (and it did so a lot), I got boatloads of DPS out of it. It also tends to be my go-to power that I can use while on the move, since it doesn't have to be channeled.

 

So my question is: why isn't it listed, and if it is supposed to be used, where does it fit in?

 

It is not listed because in a stationary fight, using FL will yield more DPS - since FL has no CD - shock is unneeded. Not to mention, in the spec I list, you do not have the crit proc (for the extra 50% damage) so that makes it extra bad.

[AlixMV]

It is not listed because in a stationary fight, using FL will yield more DPS - since FL has no CD - shock is unneeded. Not to mention, in the spec I list, you do not have the crit proc (for the extra 50% damage) so that makes it extra bad.

 

Ah, okay. I'll try this out. Cheers.

[Hockaday]

What should the sorc dps be in 69s? Albeit I'm not in the best 69s, but my hybrid and lightning is struggling for dps currently. Madness is nice but unsustainable at its max dps. I'm currently pulling around 2.3k sometimes a bit lower, sometiems a bit higher.

 

I'm also currently going back and forth between DG proc relic / pvp power proc (don't have the ark one yet) or DG damage proc and Ark on use power. With near equal results currently. So I'm wondering if my dps is very far behind, as iirc marauder dps in similar gear is 2.6k

[ceazare]

2400-2500 sounds about right for full 69. If you're running out of force over a 5 minute parse you're doing something wrong.

[Hockaday]

2400-2500 sounds about right for full 69. If you're running out of force over a 5 minute parse you're doing something wrong.

 

For max DPS output, madness will always bottom out, hence they're unsustainable. Lightning and Hybrid seem to only top out around 2.3k over a 5 minute parse. Maybe 2.4 with good RNG. Which is still 200 less than a marauder.

 

Should probably edit, and say that yes, you can maintain force as Madness, but your dps output will not be at its max. And will be equal to the two other specs.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Hockaday

[ceazare]

There's a number of possible reasons to run out of force with madness. The ones that come to mind are

 

-Not using Reserves and Electric Induction talents in Lightning tree

-Using Shock in your rotation

-Clipping dots

-Running a parse for more than 10 minutes at a time

 

I think Nibbon pretty much covered this in OP. Madness is only slightly force negative, so running out shouldn't ever be an issue over standard duration.

 

If you're referring to boss fights - you can run out of force fast with force lightning. I guess it's a drawback of the spec; you don't have to actively manage your force most of the time, but the use of some expensive skills is limited.

 

I doubt anyone is going to make a parse with 69s since it's too much hassle to obtain it again. It would be best if you post your own parse and we'll tell you if anything seems off.

Edited September 15, 2013 by ceazare

[Hockaday]

There's a number of possible reasons to run out of force with madness. The ones that come to mind are

 

-Not using Reserves and Electric Induction talents in Lightning tree

-Using Shock in your rotation

-Clipping dots

-Running a parse for more than 10 minutes at a time

 

I think Nibbon pretty much covered this in OP. Madness is only slightly force negative, so running out shouldn't ever be an issue over standard duration.

 

If you're referring to boss fights - you can run out of force fast with force lightning. I guess it's a drawback of the spec; you don't have to actively manage your force most of the time, but the use of some expensive skills is limited.

 

I doubt anyone is going to make a parse with 69s since it's too much hassle to obtain it again. It would be best if you post your own parse and we'll tell you if anything seems off.

 

Again, max dps will be extremely force negative...but I don't run Madness anyway so I don't really see why this matters.

 

Also, me posting my parse won't really matter, as I need to know what the average dps is in 69s. But from what I've been reading, sorc dps is just a lost cause, as unless they get very good RNG their dps is lower than marauders / snipers by a good bit. Hell, even 72s would be fine, as I know our marauders in 72's dps.

 

Added a parse. Was so so, I don't remember what I was running...think power proc and damage proc.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Hockaday

[campbellsoup]

Again, max dps will be extremely force negative...but I don't run Madness anyway so I don't really see why this matters.

 

Also, me posting my parse won't really matter, as I need to know what the average dps is in 69s. But from what I've been reading, sorc dps is just a lost cause, as unless they get very good RNG their dps is lower than marauders / snipers by a good bit. Hell, even 72s would be fine, as I know our marauders in 72's dps.

 

Added a parse. Was so so, I don't remember what I was running...think power proc and damage proc.

 

In the OP, Nibbon has a few parses posted. He states he was able to hit ~2800 dps with a madness sorc against a dummy with 72's. Lightning he has a parse posted for 2978 but it wasn't his. (note: the parses are no longer in the torparse database). If you go to a DPS leaderboard, while its true that snipers and marauders can parse higher, sorcs can still keep up very well, and are still an excellent DpS class.

 

If you want to compare the parses of others, Torparse Statistics will give you a very good idea of how they compare. Sage/Sorc doesn't dominate the top parses, but they can compete.

[Hockaday]

In the OP, Nibbon has a few parses posted. He states he was able to hit ~2800 dps with a madness sorc against a dummy with 72's. Lightning he has a parse posted for 2978 but it wasn't his. (note: the parses are no longer in the torparse database). If you go to a DPS leaderboard, while its true that snipers and marauders can parse higher, sorcs can still keep up very well, and are still an excellent DpS class.

 

If you want to compare the parses of others, Torparse Statistics will give you a very good idea of how they compare. Sage/Sorc doesn't dominate the top parses, but they can compete.

 

Yes I've seen those, but it's hard to believe that on average, an increase from 69s to 72s would mean a 600 dps increase. (even 500, as i've parsed 2.4k until the gcd screwed me, had great procs)

 

I've tried stacking alacrity, and boy is that a useless stat to stack, 5.25% and only .15 off FL. I've tried getting my crit to 25%, tried with 2-3% alacrity...dps is just stuck around 2.3 for me.

 

As for raids, unfortunately the numbers point towards sorc not being good for raids as well.

[Nibbon]

Yes I've seen those, but it's hard to believe that on average, an increase from 69s to 72s would mean a 600 dps increase. (even 500, as i've parsed 2.4k until the gcd screwed me, had great procs)

 

I've tried stacking alacrity, and boy is that a useless stat to stack, 5.25% and only .15 off FL. I've tried getting my crit to 25%, tried with 2-3% alacrity...dps is just stuck around 2.3 for me.

 

As for raids, unfortunately the numbers point towards sorc not being good for raids as well.

 

In 69s I was averaging 2700 - each tier has been 100-150 dps for me. I parse with reusable stim/adrenal - ive always used power proc and power click relics.

[Hockaday]

In 69s I was averaging 2700 - each tier has been 100-150 dps for me. I parse with reusable stim/adrenal - ive always used power proc and power click relics.

 

Hrm, I'll have to keep parsing then, as I can't find any sorc who can replicate this. Each spec tops out around 2.3 - 2.4k dps. Though, I am missing a 69 hilt.

 

Though, I suppose to be fair I'm using 66 enhancements and a pvp power proc relic. But I wouldn't think that would account for a 400 dps loss. Which is why I'm confused here.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Hockaday

[SWCelion]

Wow wow wow !

 

Are you sure you were dealing 2700 dps with 69 gear ?

I actually barely deal this number with mostly 72 on a boss dummy. (Are we talking about TK spec ?)

When I got my equivalent full 69 opti gear ("equivalent" mean "not really opti, but with a little bit of 72"), crafted implants and ears, power prok and power clik relic, full purple 66 enhancements, I was 2k4 maxi.

 

Today I'm near 1400 bonus damage, 27% crit, 70% surge, 2% alacrity and something like 99.95% accuracy (stim and buffs taken account), and I'm often just under 2700 :s

I respect the rotation, press the relics / alacrity CD / crit CD / power_item_that_I_don't_know_its_english_name at the right moment (think so).

Da*** is wrong ?

[campbellsoup]

Hrm, I'll have to keep parsing then, as I can't find any sorc who can replicate this. Each spec tops out around 2.3 - 2.4k dps. Though, I am missing a 69 hilt.

 

Though, I suppose to be fair I'm using 66 enhancements and a pvp power proc relic. But I wouldn't think that would account for a 400 dps loss. Which is why I'm confused here.

 

I personally can't replicate that, but I can stick with a consistent 2670-2700 in lightning and maybe a little lower in madness against a dummy. I run full 72s except for an implant and an armoring with 75 bracers. It definitely takes practice, and I have been playing my sorc since launch (usually as heals until recently) and once you get it, you can definitely put up some decent numbers (obviously Nibbon is better than I am). When attempting NiM DG (for an actual application), I typically sit at ~2600-2700 DpS, sometimes dropping down to 2500 but some of this could come from Chain lightning hitting ciphas/kelsara during the heirad phase, and the aoe from adds in the 3rd phase.

Edited September 18, 2013 by campbellsoup

[JettZor]

Question for Nibbon:

 

Say you have 0.4-0.5 seconds for WM to fall off the target, so you can't cast Turbulence, do you cast Disturbance or do you wait and hit WM?

[Nibbon]

Question for Nibbon:

 

Say you have 0.4-0.5 seconds for WM to fall off the target, so you can't cast Turbulence, do you cast Disturbance or do you wait and hit WM?

 

Not really the best one to answer TK questions, actually. I believe the answer is disturbance -> wm -> turb. I'm not sure kindran is still around, but maybe stomach, or whatever his name is now, can answer.

 

(obviously Nibbon is better than I am).

 

<3

 

Wow wow wow !

 

Are you sure you were dealing 2700 dps with 69 gear ?

I actually barely deal this number with mostly 72 on a boss dummy. (Are we talking about TK spec ?)

When I got my equivalent full 69 opti gear ("equivalent" mean "not really opti, but with a little bit of 72"), crafted implants and ears, power prok and power clik relic, full purple 66 enhancements, I was 2k4 maxi.

 

Today I'm near 1400 bonus damage, 27% crit, 70% surge, 2% alacrity and something like 99.95% accuracy (stim and buffs taken account), and I'm often just under 2700 :s

I respect the rotation, press the relics / alacrity CD / crit CD / power_item_that_I_don't_know_its_english_name at the right moment (think so).

Da*** is wrong ?

 

I'm reasonably sure that is what I was pulling, I'm in 72s now and hit around 2800-2850 very consistently (I havent parsed in a long while, but that is what I hit when I parsed a lot). I was talking about balance spec, I only really ever played balance.

 

I'll remind you I always fully min-maxed according to my guide. Your crit seems high, maybe - seems like you are full 72 now if your accuracy is like that, otherwise you have an error somewhere. If the power item is the adrenal, then I am not sure what is wrong.

 

Hrm, I'll have to keep parsing then, as I can't find any sorc who can replicate this. Each spec tops out around 2.3 - 2.4k dps. Though, I am missing a 69 hilt.

 

Though, I suppose to be fair I'm using 66 enhancements and a pvp power proc relic. But I wouldn't think that would account for a 400 dps loss. Which is why I'm confused here.

 

69 hilt is the biggest DPS upgrade, I know very well the first time I was parsing on PTS when 2.0 was on there, I was doing 2550 or so. More experience among other things got me to the consistent 2700+ for 69s, though I was not in 69 for very long before getting upgrades to 72 when 2.0 hit live.

 

My sorc is closer to full 69s - I'll see if I can log on this weekend, min-max the 69 gear and try some parses (don't hold me to it though )

Edited September 19, 2013 by Nibbon

[JettZor]

Nibbon,

1) Do you use adrenals when you parse? If so, how much of a DPS difference do they make?

2) How long do you parse for?

3) What's the best solution for someone who is not Biochem? To not use adrenals, or just stack up 30 every day?

[Nibbon]

Nibbon,

1) Do you use adrenals when you parse? If so, how much of a DPS difference do they make?

2) How long do you parse for?

3) What's the best solution for someone who is not Biochem? To not use adrenals, or just stack up 30 every day?

 

1-yes - a lot, prob 100 or so

2 - 5 minute minimum - usually up to 7-8 minutes depending on how well i timed cooldowns

3- buy them, they arent that expensive and you only need 2-3 per parse (that's really only 15-20 per hour - if my parse is lower than I want at the 2-3 minute mark I don't use the second adrenal and just start over.

[Nibbon]

did a few parses with my sorc in mostly 69s completely unoptimized - was hitting in the mid 2500s - so I'd suspect if I min-maxed the 69 I'd be in the low 2600s as an average and could probably hit 2700 as a lucky PR. Which is a little lower than I originally said. I'm also incredibly out of practice since I haven't played too much lately.