The BattleZone! Round 1 Match 05: Qui-Gon Jinn vs. Plo Koon

[Beniboybling]

And I agree that Jinn was superior as a swordsman, but we know that's not enough to grant victory.

This is were I disagree. I mean how skilled exactly does a swordsman have to be in Ataru to be able to wield it effectively against a skilled opponent? Jinn achieved mastery of Ataru and removed many of its weaknesses, he possessed incredible strength and stamina, especially for his age, and effectively applied it in battle. Any higher and he'd be up there with Master Yoda.

 

Given that Jinn has a higher stamina that Koon, Koon is likely to tire out first after an extensive defense against Jinn's aggressive and powerful attacks, the impact of which he will have to absorb. If Jinn manages to keep Koon on the defensive, Koon will quickly tire and break under Jinn's assault.

 

A possible way Koon could win though is by evasion, if he can make some distance between himself and Jinn he can use Alter Enviroment to turn the battle in his favour.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Edit: Nvrm. Edited April 16, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[ZahirS]

This is were I disagree. I mean how skilled exactly does a swordsman have to be in Ataru to be able to wield it effectively against a skilled opponent? Jinn achieved mastery of Ataru and removed many of its weaknesses, he possessed incredible strength and stamina, especially for his age, and effectively applied it in battle. Any higher and he'd be up there with Master Yoda.

 

Given that Jinn has a higher stamina that Koon, Koon is likely to tire out first after an extensive defense against Jinn's aggressive and powerful attacks, the impact of which he will have to absorb. If Jinn manages to keep Koon on the defensive, Koon will quickly tire and break under Jinn's assault.

 

A possible way Koon could win though is by evasion, if he can make some distance between himself and Jinn he can use Alter Enviroment to turn the battle in his favour.

 

The only edge Jinn might have is his sense of surroundings, this might work for him but in the end I think only the force would decide who would win.

 

Because Jinn if enters a trance and lets himself be guided by the force, might aswell beat Koon, on the other hand Koon could possibly use tactics to make him out of this trance state, either way the battle would be close to a tie.

[Beniboybling]

Aurbere's the expert on Plo Koon here so I have a query: how much concentration/time does it take for Koon to alter the enviroment? Is it more or less instantaneous? Can Koon perform it in the midst of battle? How long does it last?

 

I trust you won't lie to me and tell me Koon can call down lightning and summon flaming infernos that will burn Jinn and the whole swamp to the ground.

[Ventessel]

Aurbere's the expert on Plo Koon here so I have a query: how much concentration/time does it take for Koon to alter the enviroment? Is it more or less instantaneous? Can Koon perform it in the midst of battle? How long does it last?

 

I trust you won't lie to me and tell me Koon can call down lightning and summon flaming infernos that will burn Jinn and the whole swamp to the ground.

 

Oh, turns out there was this obscure comic where he did just that...

[Wolfninjajedi]

I posted evidence of Koon using alter environment(page 3), no it wasn't instant but it shows he can do it. However depending on what said Force User is manipulating in the environment, it could be instant or not. Vader has for example used the winds to blind Rebel snipers and against Luke on Bespin.

 

So it depends on what is being manipulated, weither or not its instant.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[marcelo_sdk]

Well, I see that every side will hang to his chosen winner to the end, so the decision rests with you Aurbere.

[Aurbere]

Well, I see that every side will hang to his chosen winner to the end, so the decision rests with you Aurbere.

 

I won't make the decision yet, but I am collecting the arguments in preparation for a final decision. I advise everyone to make a 'final plea.'

[Beniboybling]

I won't make the decision yet, but I am collecting the arguments in preparation for a final decision. I advise everyone to make a 'final plea.'

Do you think you could answer by question? Thx.

 

But as a summary:

 

Qui-Gon Jinn wins: if he manages to keep the engagement in lightsaber combat, if he does Plo Koon will be worn down and overwhelmed, even if Koon pushes him into unfavorable conditions, Jinn will adapt.

 

Plo Koon wins: if he manages to make some distance between himself and Jinn, if he does Koon can use Alter Enviroment on Jinn to eithe raise temperature levels or effect oxygen levels etc. as a result Jinn will either become incapacitated or tire much more quickly, allowing Koon to best him in a lightsaber duel.

 

I'm not sure which is more likely, but I'm leaning towards the second scenario as Koon is more likely to attack with the Force, which could draw some distance between the two. And Alter Environment seems to be more or less instantaneous, calling down mist will buy Koon even more time.

 

Koon probably wins.

[marcelo_sdk]

Qui-Gon Jinn wins: if he manages to keep the engagement in lightsaber combat, if he does Plo Koon will be worn down and overwhelmed, even if Koon pushes him into unfavorable conditions, Jinn will adapt.

 

Plo Koon wins: if he manages to make some distance between himself and Jinn, if he does Koon can use Alter Enviroment on Jinn to eithe raise temperature levels or effect oxygen levels etc. as a result Jinn will either become incapacitated or tire much more quickly, allowing Koon to best him in a lightsaber duel.

 

I'm not sure which is more likely, but I'm leaning towards the second scenario as Koon is more likely to attack with the Force, which could draw some distance between the two. And Alter Environment seems to be more or less instantaneous, calling down mist will buy Koon even more time.

 

Koon probably wins.

 

Exactly my toughts, just disagree that Koon would be overwhelmed in lightsaber combat, altough I agree Qui-Gonn is a superior swordsman.

[Aurbere]

Do you think you could answer by question? Thx.

 

 

Ah yes, your question.

 

Alter Environment doesn't require much energy as the Jedi uses the energy in the environment to accomplish a certain alteration. It can be used for grandiose displays, but I do believe they are more time consuming. However, it has been noted that a physics expert (like Plo Koon) can alter the environment at a quicker rate, while using less energy.

 

So basically, what we see someone like Streen do, Plo Koon can do it faster and with less energy. This is more of a general statement that isn't taking into account Streen's natural skills. However, your average Alter Environment user will be slower than a physics expert.

 

So Plo Koon can summon small whirlwinds (or other small alterations) quickly and with little effort if he had to.

 

Edit: Also, a physics expert has a greater range of abilities in Alter Environment than someone of less knowledge, as well as having greater control over it.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Aurbere

[Beniboybling]

Ah yes, your question.

 

Alter Environment doesn't require much energy as the Jedi uses the energy in the environment to accomplish a certain alteration. It can be used for grandiose displays, but I do believe they are more time consuming. However, it has been noted that a physics expert (like Plo Koon) can alter the environment at a quicker rate, while using less energy.

 

So basically, what we see someone like Streen do, Plo Koon can do it faster and with less energy. This is more of a general statement that isn't taking into account Streen's natural skills. However, your average Alter Environment user will be slower than a physics expert.

 

So Plo Koon can summon small whirlwinds (or other small alterations) quickly and with little effort if he had to.

 

Edit: Also, a physics expert has a greater range of abilities in Alter Environment than someone of less knowledge, as well as having greater control over it.

I see, well that confirms my belief that Koon would likely win.

 

The battle would likely begin with a fierce lightsaber duel, but as soon as Koon begins to flag under Jinn's relentless assault he will fall back on his Force powers, utilising telekinesis and Electric Judgement to make some distance and then using Alter Enviroment to create mist and subtly effect oxygen levels. Neither of which will have any effect on Koon. Then, with these new advantages, Koon will press the offensive and reengage Jinn in a lightsaber duel. Due to his lack of foresight Jinn will likely fail to realise the gravity of Koon's actions and will find himself quickly tiring. Before he realises what has happened and reacts accordingly it will be to late and Koon will have defeated him.

[marcelo_sdk]

I see, well that confirms my belief that Koon would likely win.

 

The battle would likely begin with a fierce lightsaber duel, but as soon as Koon begins to flag under Jinn's relentless assault he will fall back on his Force powers, utilising telekinesis and Electric Judgement to make some distance and then using Alter Enviroment to create mist and subtly effect oxygen levels. Neither of which will have any effect on Koon. Then, with these new advantages, Koon will press the offensive and reengage Jinn in a lightsaber duel. Due to his lack of foresight Jinn will likely fail to realise the gravity of Koon's actions and will find himself quickly tiring. Before he realises what has happened and reacts accordingly it will be to late and Koon will have defeated him.

 

Nice outcome for this. I imagine the duel exactly this way. I just don't see Koon having to use Lightning (c'mon, Electric Judgment is just a cover-up name), but surely that ability have to been accounted as an great advantage to Koon, as few Jedi in history could use it.

[ZahirS]

Even though Koon wins, I think the kel-dor would loose at least one arm or a leg, considering Jinn could adapt just as quickly to the enviroment changes his real problem is his age.

[Ventessel]

Everyone here seems to assume that Qui-Gon will tire out at an unnaturally fast rate. What you fail to realize is that any Jedi would have been exhausted after a fight of that length with Darth Maul.

 

The reason that Ataru will tire its users out quickly is due to the heavy reliance on acrobatics, something that Qui-Gon mostly eschews from his form, instead focusing on refining his technique to deliver a crushing offense and keep up his awareness of attacks from multiple enemies and blasters.

 

So what you have is essentially a very deadly dueling variant of Ataru that complements Qui-Gon's sublime connection to the Force perfectly. As he breaks down Plo Koon's defenses, the Kel Dor Jedi will not be able to create any distance from Qui-Gon due to his lack of mobility and the inherent slowness of his favored form.

 

Whenever he attempts to break away, Qui-Gon will be able to "stick" to him and keep pressing in, relying on his acute senses and the flexibility of his form to use the terrain to his advantage and keep driving Plo Koon back. Unlike Darth Maul, Plo Koon will not have planned the encounter to lead him into an enclosed space, and so he will eventually be eviscerated by Jinn's superior swordsmanship.

 

As for employing Alter Environment, conjuring mist won't help at all, since Qui-Gon's affinity for his surroundings would actually give him the advantage in reduced visibility. As seen early on in TPM, Qui-Gon is perfectly comfortable fighting through gas that prevents him from breathing and reduces visibility.

 

Even assuming that Plo Koon could reduce the oxygen content of the air (something Qui-Gon will instantly detect, since he was able to identify the gas being used by the Trade Federation immediately, thanks to his awareness of the "here and now"), this would require immense concentration.

 

Regarding Alter Environment: "A greater knowledge in physics would result in more precise control, and a larger range of methods this power could be used, as well as improve the time it took to enact. However, a being would need to monitor the effects in order to keep them from spreading to disastrous consequences."

 

Something as specific as removing only a particular type of molecule from the air would require immense concentration, and if Plo Koon were to attempt to focus on this, Qui-Gon would press his attack the moment he sensed the Kel Dor's concentration breaking away from his already faltering defense, and kill him.

 

In a way, Plo Koon's extensive options with Alter Environment could be his downfall, providing him with a fatal distraction.

[Beniboybling]

Regarding Alter Environment: "A greater knowledge in physics would result in more precise control, and a larger range of methods this power could be used, as well as improve the time it took to enact. However, a being would need to monitor the effects in order to keep them from spreading to disastrous consequences."

 

Something as specific as removing only a particular type of molecule from the air would require immense concentration, and if Plo Koon were to attempt to focus on this, Qui-Gon would press his attack the moment he sensed the Kel Dor's concentration breaking away from his already faltering defense, and kill him.

 

In a way, Plo Koon's extensive options with Alter Environment could be his downfall, providing him with a fatal distraction.

Koon has displayed himself capable of summoning large quantities of mist almost instantaneously, albeit it out of a combat situation. And given his knowledge of physics I expect he is able to use this ability faster, and more accurately than most. So it is perfectly plausible to assume that if he managed to make some distance between himself and Jinn, he could thin the air relatively quickly. Or alternatively alter the temperature.

 

Also note the following:

 

Alter Environment could be used to manipulate temperatures, creating freezing sub-zero temperatures in seconds, or blistering heat that could burn. With this ability, a user could generate electrical discharges over broad expanses of ground, vacate areas of air, or increase the pressure of the air to burst eardrums

 

Plo Koon possessed an extensive knowledge of the physical sciences. In particular, he used his expert knowledge of physics along with the Force to alter the environment—the resourceful Jedi could create small whirlwinds as well as a dense fog over a limited area, freeze tiny rivers and lakes, and raise or lower the temperature of his surroundings enough to incapacitate an opponent. ~ Wookieepedia

 

As you can see there are a range of deadly effects Koon can employ, which it would seem can be performed almost instantaneously.

 

How does he make the distance? A Force push would suffice in knocking Jinn back, perhaps followed up with a Force whirlwind. Something it would seem he is not able to recover from quickly, see here. Maul's kick keeps him out of the fight for a good 10 seconds. More than enough time for Koon to make further distance, or alter the environment. Jinn's age would be his undoing in that respect. (Also everyone, take a moment to observe Maul's skills, look at that guy go! )

 

Breath control? A possibility, but his oxygen intake would still be drastically reduced. And Jedi or not, you need high levels of oxygen to fight at such speeds, especially if performing a high powered, constant attack. He will tire either way. And even so, Koon may instead decide to increase or increase temperatures to drastic levels at which Jinn will either me incapacitated or find it extremely difficult to function.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Ventessel]

Maul was able to drive Qui-Gon off, but then again he is also one of the most skilled combatants to emerge in the Prequel Era and was fighting in an environment that heavily favored his style over Jinn's. Plo Koon might simply find his leg amputated by Qui-Gon if he attempted such a kick.

 

Furthermore, any temperature manipulation will affect Plo Koon equally, slowing him down even more. Qui-Gon's unflappable concentration will also allow him to exploit any lapse in Koon's defenses that would result from him switching to Force-based attacks, creating a fatal opening. Since Koon focuses heavily on Djem So, rather than Niman, he would have more difficulty fluidly integrating those type of attacks into his fighting.

 

Furthermore, Qui-Gon is just as strong, if not stronger than, Plo Koon in the Force. He simply prefers to focus on pure lightsaber fighting, since he is an almost peerless duelist. He is not defenseless against the Force; in fact, his natural and powerful connection with the Living Force would make him prepared to quickly repulse any attack using the Force without interrupting his own assault.

[Beniboybling]

Maul was able to drive Qui-Gon off, but then again he is also one of the most skilled combatants to emerge in the Prequel Era and was fighting in an environment that heavily favored his style over Jinn's. Plo Koon might simply find his leg amputated by Qui-Gon if he attempted such a kick.

 

Furthermore, any temperature manipulation will affect Plo Koon equally, slowing him down even more. Qui-Gon's unflappable concentration will also allow him to exploit any lapse in Koon's defenses that would result from him switching to Force-based attacks, creating a fatal opening. Since Koon focuses heavily on Djem So, rather than Niman, he would have more difficulty fluidly integrating those type of attacks into his fighting.

 

Furthermore, Qui-Gon is just as strong, if not stronger than, Plo Koon in the Force. He simply prefers to focus on pure lightsaber fighting, since he is an almost peerless duelist. He is not defenseless against the Force; in fact, his natural and powerful connection with the Living Force would make him prepared to quickly repulse any attack using the Force without interrupting his own assault.

Given that Koon is not a practitioner of Teräs Käsi or Ataru, he would not opt for such an attack but rather a Force push. Which would likely work given the numerous times it has been applied in various lightsaber duels with effect. No doubt Jinn will be able to resist the full effects of a Force whirwind but will still be temporarily occupied, especially given the fact Koon's whirlwinds were more effective than most.

 

However your right, raising the temperature would effect Koon as well. However lowering it would not given the fact that Koon can survive the cold vacuum of space. Thinning the air would also be effective and allow Koon to gain an edge in lightsaber combat.

 

But, like you say, Koon may have difficulty chaining Force based attacks into his form. Instead it could prove fatal... I'm still unsure how this fight will turn out but if Koon fails to disengage, Jinn wins, and if he does, Koon wins. That much I am confident on.

[Ventessel]

Disengaging is no guarantee for Koon, either. If he manages to break off, like Maul did, Qui-Gon will remain calm and either fight him through the Force or continue to shadow Koon and wait for an opening to re-engage with his lightsaber.

 

If anything, breaking off gives Qui-Gon a chance to catch his breath and prepare for a renewed assault. The longer he fights Koon, the more he will learn to anticipate his style and follow the natural motions of the Living Force, exploiting weaknesses of Koon's movements. Djem So is a power style, and can be just as exhausting as Ataru in a sustained fight, so if the duel drags on, Koon runs the same risks of exhaustion as Qui-Gon, except that he doesn't have the agility to recover from a disadvantaged position if pushed into one.

[Beniboybling]

Hmmm... I'm beginning to think Koon's abilities to alter the environment may not be all that effective. For example its impossible for him to thin the air across the entire swamp and with my basic grasp of molecule behavior I'd assume that if he thinned the air, or created a vacuum, in a particular space, the surrounding air would rush to fill it instantaneously. So not only will it require continuous concentration on Koon's part to maintain it, but Jinn will be able to easily avoid it simply by moving.

 

The lack of enclosed space in fact hampers many of his abilities, he can't change the temperature on a large scale either. However what he can still attack Jinn with bursts, such as a heat or cold wave, or a whirlwind. He could feasibly manipulate the water about him to attack Jinn as well. However these will only temporarily stun Jinn.

[marcelo_sdk]

Disengaging is no guarantee for Koon, either. If he manages to break off, like Maul did, Qui-Gon will remain calm and either fight him through the Force or continue to shadow Koon and wait for an opening to re-engage with his lightsaber.

 

If anything, breaking off gives Qui-Gon a chance to catch his breath and prepare for a renewed assault. The longer he fights Koon, the more he will learn to anticipate his style and follow the natural motions of the Living Force, exploiting weaknesses of Koon's movements. Djem So is a power style, and can be just as exhausting as Ataru in a sustained fight, so if the duel drags on, Koon runs the same risks of exhaustion as Qui-Gon, except that he doesn't have the agility to recover from a disadvantaged position if pushed into one.

 

What is happening is that you are thinking that Qui-Gonn is extremely superior to Koon iin lightsaber combat, wich he is not, especially if we take TPM as reference. Koon was more than able to sustain Jinn's offensive, and he could increase Jinn's fatigue without affecting himself, he used an oxfilter mask if you don't remember. In fact, he could near deplet the oxygen in an area and that would not affect him. But I don't even think he would need something so drastic.

 

And no, not every Jedi would tire like Qui-Gonn facing Maul. In Tatooine, they fought for a very brief period, with Maul using single-handed saber, and still Qui-Gonn was exhausted after the duel. In Naboo, Obi-Wan fought using the same Ataru, using the acrobacies his master didn't, and was in a much more better shape at the end of the combat.

 

Just to ilustrate Koon's abilities as swordsman, some quotes from Wokieepedia:

 

"He's an expert swordsman and a hard taskmaster."

―Qui-Gon Jinn

 

Plo Koon was a powerful Jedi Master and the Sith Lord Darth Maul considered him to be one of the greatest Jedi warriors of his time

 

Possessing great strength, Koon was a master of hand-to-hand combat. He was also a master of the fifth form of lightsaber combat, Djem So. Master Plo was considered amongst the most skilled swordsman in the Jedi Order, being capable of fending off even Asajj Ventress while being encumbered by a broken arm. He was also trained in the use of Ataru.

 

So he was not limited to Djem So, and he was regarded as a great saber duelist, even by Qui-Gonn himself.

Edited April 17, 2013 by marcelo_sdk

[Aurbere]

Just some things that I would like to point out concerning Alter Environment.

 

As we see in Outcast, The Hidden One instantly summons large whirlwinds to assail Luke with. These whirlwinds are capable of knocking down the support pillars in the Caverns of The Hidden Ones. It should be noted that Koro Ziil is not noted as a physics expert.

 

So Plo Koon could push Qui-Gon back, and pummel him with constant small whirlwinds. Qui-Gon would have to waste energy evading these winds. Plo Koon uses minimal energy, Qui-Gon Jinn not so much.

 

Also, Plo Koon's hide allows him to withstand extreme temperatures. As we see in the second Clone Wars episode, Plo Koon fights in the vacuum of space, which isn't exactly a warm climate.

[LadyKulvax]

Just some things that I would like to point out concerning Alter Environment.

 

As we see in Outcast, The Hidden One instantly summons large whirlwinds to assail Luke with. These whirlwinds are capable of knocking down the support pillars in the Caverns of The Hidden Ones. It should be noted that Koro Ziil is not noted as a physics expert.

 

So Plo Koon could push Qui-Gon back, and pummel him with constant small whirlwinds. Qui-Gon would have to waste energy evading these winds. Plo Koon uses minimal energy, Qui-Gon Jinn not so much.

 

Also, Plo Koon's hide allows him to withstand extreme temperatures. As we see in the second Clone Wars episode, Plo Koon fights in the vacuum of space, which isn't exactly a warm climate.

 

I support this, Master Koon has such specialised abilities in the force that these esoteric abilities give him an edge over Jinn who has few tricks up his sleeve by comparison.

[Ventessel]

And no, not every Jedi would tire like Qui-Gonn facing Maul. In Tatooine, they fought for a very brief period, with Maul using single-handed saber, and still Qui-Gonn was exhausted after the duel. In Naboo, Obi-Wan fought using the same Ataru, using the acrobacies his master didn't, and was in a much more better shape at the end of the combat.

 

Fighting in the heat of Tatooine would leave anyone breathless. Remember, he had just hiked all the way back from the city Anakin was in, and in the blazing heat of two suns. He then proceeded to fight with Maul for a short time before running and jumping onto the ship, where he was out of breath. Not cripplingly exhausted, just out of breath and tired. That's hardly an indication that he doesn't possess the endurance and fortitude of a Jedi Master.

 

Furthermore, Obi-Wan was tired by the end of his duel with Maul. When he stopped at the end of the tunnel in front of the ray shield, he was sweating and breathing heavily. There is no indication that he was more or less tired than Qui-Gon.

 

 

Just to ilustrate Koon's abilities as swordsman, some quotes from Wokieepedia:

So he was not limited to Djem So, and he was regarded as a great saber duelist, even by Qui-Gonn himself.

All you've shown there is that Qui-Gon respected him, so he will not underestimate Koon. He'll move to end the duel quickly and decisively.

 

You didn't actually highlight any of his feats or abilities other than what is already obvious, that he's a Djem So master with training in Ataru. He doesn't use Ataru often, due to his inherent strength and lack of flexibility favoring Djem So heavily.

[Aurbere]

I support this, Master Koon has such specialised abilities in the force that these esoteric abilities give him an edge over Jinn who has few tricks up his sleeve by comparison.

 

Long time no see, friend.