The BattleZone! Round 1 Match 05: Qui-Gon Jinn vs. Plo Koon

[YoshiRaphElan]

Wait, when did Savage Oppress exploit Plo Koon's breathing mask weakness, or even face him for that matter?

 

Yeah, I don't remember Savage and Plo ever fighting.

[Aurbere]

Wait, when did Savage Oppress exploit Plo Koon's breathing mask weakness, or even face him for that matter?

 

Query: Are you sure Koon is a master of Djem So? I've come across several (while not exactly reputable) sources stating he was a master of Shien... although it would seem plausible that he was a master of Form V as a whole.

 

But either way, I think your right to say that Plo Koon would win this. And I agree with the edges you've given.

 

Savage and Plo Koon fight in the comic 'The Sith Hunters.' For the most part, the duel was even (despite the focus on Maul's duel with two Jedi). It didn't change until Savage ripped Plo Koon's mask away.

 

Gotta go with this:

 

Possessing great strength, Koon was a master of hand-to-hand combat. He was also a master of the fifth form of lightsaber combat, Djem So.[42][45] Master Plo was considered amongst the most skilled swordsman in the Jedi Order, being capable of fending off even Asajj Ventress while being encumbered by a broken arm. He was also trained in the use of Ataru.[46]

- Plo Koon's Wookieepedia page

 

If I have the time, I'll go through some of my books. Though it is possible that Plo Koon is a master of the whole of Form V, considering his skill in blast deflection.

 

Interestingly, the above quote says that he was trained in Ataru.

[marcelo_sdk]

Let's not bring this concentration thing back, that's seems to me as lack of arguments, people did the same thing in Plagueis vs. Vitiate about the late's power of mind control, wich lead to the absurd win (at least for me) of the Muun Sith Lord.

 

Plo Koon was no idiot, not like he was going to change foccus oin the middle of Qui-Gonn's offensive. And as I said, a subtle change in the air moisture, not anything drastic, would be enough to increase Jinn's fatigue.

 

But even if we take environment control out of the table, I see Plo Koon winning. As said before, just a swift victory would do for Qui-Gonn, but that's very unlikely to happen against the experienced Kel Dor Jedi Master.

[Beniboybling]

Savage and Plo Koon fight in the comic 'The Sith Hunters.' For the most part, the duel was even (despite the focus on Maul's duel with two Jedi). It didn't change until Savage ripped Plo Koon's mask away.

 

Gotta go with this...

Interesting, it would seem Wookieepedia has yet to add this to their databanks, most disappointing *tut* *tut*

 

I'm surprised that Savage Oppress managed to go toe-to-toe with Plo Koon, let alone 'defeat' him. I look forward to his appearance in the BattleZone, and will be sure not to underestimate him.

 

Query: How did Plo Koon survive that? And how did Oppress manage it in the first place. Lol, I really wanna read this comic now. Savage Oppress is a favourite character of mine.

[Aurbere]

Interesting, it would seem Wookieepedia has yet to add this to their databanks, most disappointing *tut* *tut*

 

I'm surprised that Savage Oppress managed to go toe-to-toe with Plo Koon, let alone 'defeat' him. I look forward to his appearance in the BattleZone, and will be sure not to underestimate him.

 

Query: How did Plo Koon survive that? And how did Oppress manage it in the first place. Lol, I really wanna read this comic now. Savage Oppress is a favourite character of mine.

 

Well the duel lasted roughly three pages, but it wasn't the main focus. Darth Maul's duel with two other Jedi was.

 

However, the duel was quite even. They exchanged blows for a bit, but then Savage removes Plo Koon's mask. Plo Koon is literally instantly taken out of the fight and left gasping for breath. Kenobi and Skywalker come in in their starfighters and attack Savage and Maul from above. Plo Koon gets his mask back on. The end. /sigh

 

I don't know how long the duel could have gone on for, but they seemed pretty evenly matched in regards to saber skills.

[Beniboybling]

Let's not bring this concentration thing back, that's seems to me as lack of arguments, people did the same thing in Plagueis vs. Vitiate about the late's power of mind control, wich lead to the absurd win (at least for me) of the Muun Sith Lord.

 

Plo Koon was no idiot, not like he was going to change foccus oin the middle of Qui-Gonn's offensive. And as I said, a subtle change in the air moisture, not anything drastic, would be enough to increase Jinn's fatigue.

 

But even if we take environment control out of the table, I see Plo Koon winning. As said before, just a swift victory would do for Qui-Gonn, but that's very unlikely to happen against the experienced Kel Dor Jedi Master.

Well considering that many Force-using feats require concentration, I see it as a reputable argument. Given the fact that Alter Environment requires the fine manipulation of minute molecules even a 'simple' act of change as the kind you suggested would require a deal of concentration. Something Plo Koon would not be able to do in the midst of a fierce duel with Qui-Gon, of which he will likely be pushed to the defensive and be focusing on redirecting his attacks and performing counter strikes. Given the fact that Koon has never been able to perform this feat in battle, and when doing so has always been 'out of combat' we can assume this to be the case.

 

As you said, Plo Koon is no idiot, so he's not going to take such a risk. For that reason feats of Alter Environment are unlikely. Just because you don't like the argument, doesn't make it moot.

 

Despite this I still believe Koon would win, simply because he is a superior duelist. And that's what its going to come down to, a pure lightsaber duel.

[Beniboybling]

I don't know how long the duel could have gone on for, but they seemed pretty evenly matched in regards to saber skills.

Begs the question how Savage managed to strike of his mask... but Koon wouldn't be the first Jedi to be overpowered by Oppress. Nonetheless, I fear Koon may have been killed if Anakin and Obi-Wan had not rescued him.

[Aurbere]

Begs the question how Savage managed to strike of his mask... but Koon wouldn't be the first Jedi to be overpowered by Oppress. Nonetheless, I fear Koon may have been killed if Anakin and Obi-Wan had not rescued him.

 

Well he kind of ripped it off, I think. But you are correct, he isn't the first Jedi to be overpowered by Savage, and he would have been killed had Kenobi and Skywalker not arrived.

 

/sigh

[marcelo_sdk]

Qui-Gonn is a superior duelist, that's stated in all sources. But not superior enough to defeat Koon quickly, so, in the end, his fatigue would be his downfall, as with Maul. Edited April 15, 2013 by marcelo_sdk

[Beniboybling]

Qui-Gonn is a superior duelist, that's stated in all sources. But not superior enough to defeat Koon quickly, so, in the end, his fatigue would be his downfall, as with Maul.

Oh wait, I almost forgot about that:

 

Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the finest swordsman in the Jedi Order, having frequent sparring experience with many of his equally skilled contemporaries; notably Mace Windu. Indeed it was said that he was the only Jedi apart from his own Master, Dooku and Grand Master Yoda, who was able to fight Windu as an equal. ~ Wookieepedia

 

Perhaps we underestimated Jinn? Granted he suffers from the weaknesses of Ataru, but lets remember he sustained combat with Darth Maul for a good amount of time. And it was only when Darth Maul got him into an enclosed space where he couldn't put up an effective defense that he was defeated. And arguably Maul is more skilled with a lightsaber than both Koon and Jinn.

 

So who's to say Koon won't break under a relentless Ataru attack from Jinn? Given the fact that Jinn is the superior duelist? Seems very much like the duel with Shaak Ti and Unduli, because Ti was the superior duelist it was she who powered through Unduli's defenses rather than Unduli who tired her out. Given the fact that Djem So is more focused on attack than defense, Jinn gains an even greater edge as Jinn's mastery of Ataru will allow him to mount a successful and constant attack, forcing Koon on the defensive. Soon enough Koon's defenses will simply break and he'll be killed.

 

Given the fact that he was overpowered in a similar manner, by a relentless attack from Savage Oppress, the battle could well swing that way. I really don't think we can just hand the victory to Koon simply because Jinn wields a form that tired him out in his fatal duel with Darth Maul.

 

This isn't as clear cut as I originally thought...

[Wolfninjajedi]

However that quote doesn't really make much sense, unless it was speaking of when Qui-Gon was in his prime state, because then its suggesting that Maul =Mace(which seems rather...odd considering how young Maul was at the time, he was only a couple of years older then Obi-Wan who was a padawan at the time). Environmental factors came into play sure, but after the short duel on Tatooine Maul figured out how to kill Jinn. If at that time, Jinn was still equal to Mace then I don't see how Maul could have figured out how to kill him, he more then likely diminished by the time of TPM compared to his prime state. Edited April 15, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

Also, does anyone remember the Battle of Khorm? One-handed Plo Koon not only defends himself against Ventress, but even overpowers her. This is the same Ventress that bested Soresu (defense) master Luminara Unduli.

 

Yes, Plo Koon was 'overpowered' (not entirely sure on that, have to check the comic again) by Savage Opress, but Savage is much stronger than Ventress. Is Qui-Gon Jinn as strong as Savage? I don't think so, but that is subject to debate.

[Beniboybling]

However that quote doesn't really make much sense, unless it was speaking of when Qui-Gon was in his prime state, because then its suggesting that Maul =Yoda/Mace. Otherwise....why would he lose to Maul, if his only equals were Mace and Yoda? Environmental factors came into play sure, but after the short duel on Tatooine Maul figured out how to kill Jinn. If at that time, Jinn was still equal to Yoda and Mace then I don't see how Maul could have figured out how to kill him, his skills were more then likely diminished by the time of TPM compared to his prime state.

Well you can never really simplify such things to X = X etc. So equal could very well mean, fight toe-to-toe without getting ROFLstomped in a few seconds, not necessarily reach a never ending impasse, e.g. like how Obi-Wan and Anakin were entirely outclassed by Dooku, yet a sustained conflict emerged when Yoda appeared. Yoda would have likely won that duel but in some ways they were 'equals'.

 

So while Qui-Gon can fight toe-to-toe with Windu, he'd likely lose. Yet the battle would be sustained and fierce.

 

Let's also remember that Darth Maul is highly skilled in lightsaber combat, he was trained by Darth Sidious himself to be an expert lightsaber duelist and wielded a weapon unfamiliar to the Jedi at that time. He was only defeated through his own arrogance, not through lack of skill. He could likely give Yoda, Windu and Dooku a serious run for their money. I'd go as far to say that in a pure lightsaber duel he could defeat Dooku, though not necessarily Windu or Yoda.

 

And like you said, he exploited Jinn's weaknesses. Which would have become quickly apparent to him after dueling with him on Tatooine, I mean all you have to do is read Wookieepedia to know the weaknesses of Ataru. Not that that was the be all and end all, if Maul hadn't been confident in his own abilities he wouldn't have tried such a daring tactic, which relied on defending against an Ataru onslaught for a good amount of time. So while it can be easy to recognised your opponents weaknesses, it is not so easy to exploit them.

 

But I digress, in a nutshell Jinn, Dooku, Yoda, Windu and Maul are all up their in the 'expert lightsaber duelist' section. While Koon falls short of that group.

[Aurbere]

But I digress, in a nutshell Jinn, Dooku, Yoda, Windu and Maul are all up their in the 'expert lightsaber duelist' section. While Koon falls short of that group.

 

"He's an expert swordsmen and a hard taskmaster."- Qui-Gon Jinn, referring to Plo Koon

 

"The Sith Lord Darth Maul considered him to be one of the greatest Jedi Warriors of his time even though they never dueled one another."- Wookieepedia

 

"Master Plo was considered amongst the most skilled in the Jedi Order"- Wookieepedia

 

What were you saying now?

[Beniboybling]

Also, does anyone remember the Battle of Khorm? One-handed Plo Koon not only defends himself against Ventress, but even overpowers her. This is the same Ventress that bested Soresu (defense) master Luminara Unduli.

 

Yes, Plo Koon was 'overpowered' (not entirely sure on that, have to check the comic again) by Savage Opress, but Savage is much stronger than Ventress. Is Qui-Gon Jinn as strong as Savage? I don't think so, but that is subject to debate.

It is a point, but we have nothing to compare it with. Given this it is a testament to Koon's skill but nothing more. And it only proves why Unduli is not on the Council, and Koon is. There in a different league and so is Jinn. And, ultimately (and I don't want to downgrade Ventress' abilities here) she is only an dark Jedi. Her skills are incomparable to that of Dooku's who defeated her with ease, a fighter who's skills are supposedly comparable with that of Jinn's. So I have no doubt he would perform just as well as Koon did, if not better.

 

Strength is one thing, but skill is another. Let's also remember that with the Force can empower you strong and Ataru combines that strength with skill and agility. Something Savage does not possess.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

What were you saying now?

That Koon is not as skilled as the likes of Yoda, Mace Windu and Dooku (and arguably Jinn) - who were the finest duelists of their age and some of the finest duelists in the history of the Jedi Order. Most of the Jedi Council members have such a reputation as Koon's and I'm sure I'd be able to find similar statements to match. But when we are considering the best of the Order, we have to push those statements aside and look a little deeper. I believe a comparison with Mace Windu proves his superiority, given that Koon was not listed.

[Aurbere]

That Koon is not as skilled as the likes of Yoda, Mace Windu and Dooku (and arguably Jinn) - who were the finest duelists of their age and some of the finest duelists in the history of the Jedi Order. Most of the Jedi Council members have such a reputation as Koon's and I'm sure I'd be able to find similar statements to match. But when we are considering the best of the Order, we have to push those statements aside and look a little deeper. I believe a comparison with Mace Windu proves his superiority, given that Koon was not listed.

 

He isn't as skilled as Windu, Yoda and Dooku. That's pretty obvious, all things considered. I was contending the point that you made when you said that Plo Koon was not an expert duelist, even though he is considered one (even by Qui-Gon Jinn).

Edited April 15, 2013 by Aurbere

[Beniboybling]

He isn't as skilled as Windu, Yoda and Dooku. That's pretty obvious, all things considered. I was contending the point that you made when you said that Plo Koon was not an expert duelist, even though he is considered one (even by Qui-Gon Jinn).

Oh, perhaps I phrased that wrong. My bad.

 

However I think we need to take into account environment etc. in this duel, as it was Jinn's downfall on Naboo. And Ataru relies heavily on the right environment...

[Aurbere]

Oh, perhaps I phrased that wrong. My bad.

 

However I think we need to take into account environment etc. in this duel, as it was Jinn's downfall on Naboo. And Ataru relies heavily on the right environment...

 

Yes, the environment is a major part of this battle. It's very wide open (aside from lakes, trees and muck), which gives Qui-Gon plenty of room to move. However, the point has been made that Qui-Gon will eventually tire out. It is a good point, but then the counter-point is that Qui-Gon can win the duel in a short time before fatigue sets in. We'll see what others have to say.

 

If no one decides to fight you for Plo Koon, I'll have to do it.

[Beniboybling]

Yes, the environment is a major part of this battle. It's very wide open (aside from lakes, trees and muck), which gives Qui-Gon plenty of room to move. However, the point has been made that Qui-Gon will eventually tire out. It is a good point, but then the counter-point is that Qui-Gon can win the duel in a short time before fatigue sets in. We'll see what others have to say.

 

If no one decides to fight you for Plo Koon, I'll have to do it.

Hmmm... TBH I'm not entirely convinced either side would win, I'm just reluctant to agree that Qui-Gon will falter purely because a weakness of form. Especially as he is a master of it.

 

Speaking of weaknesses, we have to consider Koon's lack of ability compared to Jinn's abundance of it, which could very well lead to him being outmanoeuvred.

[Beniboybling]

Lol, I was searching for a vs video on this and came across a thread that I thought I had to share:

calvs: Plo would take this, because he was on the council in TPM, when Ginn wasn't.

 

Janus Marius: That's stupid. Coleman Trebor was on the council but Dooku wasn't. Who wins, Calvin?

Feel the buuuurn!

[Aurbere]

Interesting Plo Koon factoids for everyone.

 

Prior to the Stark Hyperspace War, Plo Koon was only a Knight for a few years before he was approached by Tyvokka asking him to join the Jedi High Council. After the war, Plo Koon was given a life-time seat on the High Council as his master's dying wish. He also holds a life-time seat on the Council of Reconciliation (a position reserved for two Jedi Masters)

 

Plo Koon was an excellent tactician. During the battle of Brentaal IV, he commanded a large Republic army from orbit, coordinating Shaak Ti's forces. The won the battle, losing only a fourth of their forces despite being heavily outnumbered. He also led the Republic forces to victory with Kit Fisto on Khorm, despite the enemy using the environment to set several traps and ambushes.

 

Plo Koon was highly respected by the Baran Do Grand Master Tila Mong, and was considered very powerful. "The Force runs strong in that line, as, it is said, in the Skywalker line." Basically, the Koons are the Skywalkers of the Baran Do.

[Aurbere]

Lol, I was searching for a vs video on this and came across a thread that I thought I had to share:

Feel the buuuurn!

 

The argument that Council member > non-council member isn't very good. For one, considering that Qui-Gon would have been on the Council had he not been such a maverick. So really, we would be comparing two Council-level masters.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Aurbere

[Wolfninjajedi]

Interesting Plo Koon factoids for everyone.

 

Prior to the Stark Hyperspace War, Plo Koon was only a Knight for a few years before he was approached by Tyvokka asking him to join the Jedi High Council. After the war, Plo Koon was given a life-time seat on the High Council as his master's dying wish. He also holds a life-time seat on the Council of Reconciliation (a position reserved for two Jedi Masters)

 

Plo Koon was an excellent tactician. During the battle of Brentaal IV, he commanded a large Republic army from orbit, coordinating Shaak Ti's forces. The won the battle, losing only a fourth of their forces despite being heavily outnumbered. He also led the Republic forces to victory with Kit Fisto on Khorm, despite the enemy using the environment to set several traps and ambushes.

 

Plo Koon was highly respected by the Baran Do Grand Master Tila Mong, and was considered very powerful. "The Force runs strong in that line, as, it is said, in the Skywalker line." Basically, the Koons are the Skywalkers of the Baran Do.

 

It runs strong but that could amount to anything really, doesn't really mean it makes them like Skywalkers. Just that like the Skywalker line, The Force runs strong in that line too(compared to others)...unless that is what you were meaning.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

Hmmm... TBH I'm not entirely convinced either side would win, I'm just reluctant to agree that Qui-Gon will falter purely because a weakness of form. Especially as he is a master of it.

 

Speaking of weaknesses, we have to consider Koon's lack of ability compared to Jinn's abundance of it, which could very well lead to him being outmanoeuvred.

 

See! And everybody said that Plo Koon would win (even though I think the same). Think this so lopsided do you?

 

To be honest, it doesn't matter to me who wins, as they are both my fave characters. Also, based on how the brackets are laid out, the winner here could make it to the quarterfinals.