The BattleZone! Round 1 Match 05: Qui-Gon Jinn vs. Plo Koon

[Aurbere]

It runs strong but that could amount to anything really, doesn't really mean it makes them like Skywalkers. Just that like the Skywalker line, The Force runs strong in that line too...unless that is what you were meaning.

 

They aren't the Skywalkers, per se. They are the Skywalkers equivalent of the Baran Do (not power-wise, lineage-wise).

[Wolfninjajedi]

This really just comes down to if Qui-Gon can end the duel in a timely manner before it gets drawn out to the point where he is losing. So...time is really the main point here.

[Beniboybling]

See! And everybody said that Plo Koon would win (even though I think the same). Think this so lopsided do you?

 

To be honest, it doesn't matter to me who wins, as they are both my fave characters. Also, based on how the brackets are laid out, the winner here could make it to the quarterfinals.

Unfortunately, no matter who wins this battle, none will be able to stand up to the might of Darth Traya!

[Aurbere]

Unfortunately, no matter who wins this battle, none will be able to stand up to the might of Darth Traya!

 

Speaking of Darth Traya, I'm having some difficulty pinning her down for a match. I have her lined up, but I'm considering moving her. The life of a bracket-maker.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Speaking of Darth Traya, I'm having some difficulty pinning her down for a match. I have her lined up, but I'm considering moving her. The life of a bracket-maker.

 

Just put her against someone that is fair, really Traya isn't...that impressive when comparing her to some of the guys you have in the list.

[Beniboybling]

Speaking of Darth Traya, I'm having some difficulty pinning her down for a match. I have her lined up, but I'm considering moving her. The life of a bracket-maker.

Put her against... Savage Oppress. Yeah, definitely him, he'll totally give her a run for her money and not instantaneously get his but whooped by Force drain.

 

No but really, erm... anyone really... I'm not sure the matchups in the first round matter that much. Its the second round where things get interesting. So perhaps process of elimination...

[Beniboybling]

Just put her against someone that is fair, really Traya isn't...that impressive when comparing her to some of the guys you have in the list.

You are mistaken, about a great many things...

[Wolfninjajedi]

You are mistaken, about a great many things...

 

No I really ain't, compared to some of the ones on the list and their feats? She isn't all powerful.

[Beniboybling]

No I really ain't, compared to some of the ones on the list and their feats? She isn't all powerful.

Let's remember this is the woman who killed three Jedi Masters on the Jedi Council in three seconds and a dozen Sith assassins in half the time. Something I'm not sure anyone on that list could accomplish. But this isn't the time for this debate.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Let's remember this is the woman who killed three Jedi Masters on the Jedi Council in three seconds and a dozen Sith assassins in half the time. Something I'm not sure anyone on that list could accomplish. But this isn't the time for this debate.

 

Yes because of Force Drain she did that for the Masters(and its debatable just how powerful those 3 actually were, they seemed to be piss ants by comparison), not actual skill. Some of the guys on the list, can resist Force Drain. But right, not the time for that.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Yes because of Force Drain she did that for the Masters(and its debatable just how powerful those 3 actually were, they seemed to be piss ants by comparison), not actual skill. Some of the guys on the list, can resist Force Drain. But right, not the time for that.

Its actually debatable whether Force drain can be resisted at all, but yeah.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Its actually debatable whether Force drain can be resisted at all, but yeah.

 

It can be. But anyway moving on Aurbere, I guess you can just call this unless there is anything else to add.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[marcelo_sdk]

Oh wait, I almost forgot about that:

 

Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the finest swordsman in the Jedi Order, having frequent sparring experience with many of his equally skilled contemporaries; notably Mace Windu. Indeed it was said that he was the only Jedi apart from his own Master, Dooku and Grand Master Yoda, who was able to fight Windu as an equal. ~ Wookieepedia

 

I said this in one my first posts, Wolfinin will remember. There's no doubt that Qui-Gonn is a superior swordsman. But we have to remember that Aurbere is using TPM as base for comparison. So yes, for some time Jinn would have the upper hand in the duel, but I just don't think it would be enough to defeat Plo Koon.

 

And regarding Maul, I see Koon at least on the same level, I think he could withstand Qui-Gonn's offensive as long as the Zabrak Sith Lord.

[marcelo_sdk]

That Koon is not as skilled as the likes of Yoda, Mace Windu and Dooku (and arguably Jinn) - who were the finest duelists of their age and some of the finest duelists in the history of the Jedi Order. Most of the Jedi Council members have such a reputation as Koon's and I'm sure I'd be able to find similar statements to match. But when we are considering the best of the Order, we have to push those statements aside and look a little deeper. I believe a comparison with Mace Windu proves his superiority, given that Koon was not listed.

 

I disagree here. I understand what you are saying, there's some masters that either are not extraordinary like Windu and Yoda, but are all respected and with high regard. In this group you can put Shaak Ti, Luminara Unduli, Ki-Adi Mundi, Aayla Secura, Kit Fisto and Plo Koon himself. But among those, I consider Koon (along with Fisto) to be one step above. So I, at least, don't take Koon in the "average "level" of the Council Members.

Edited April 15, 2013 by marcelo_sdk

[Ventessel]

Plo Koon is skilled, but nearly on the level of the real swordmasters like Maul, Windu, and Dooku.

 

I think that Qui-Gon is going to cut him down like a dog in the street. His initial attacks will exploit Plo Koon's lack of mobility to the maximum. The swamp will make it easier for force Plo Koon into terrain that will trip him up (murky water, vines, unsure footing, etc.) while Qui-Gon's mobility and speed will allow him to outflank and outmaneuver Plo Koon.

 

Qui-Gon's incredible affinity with the Living Force allowed him to rediscover the technique of becoming one with the Force, something not even Yoda knew until Qui-Gon figured it out. His swordsmanship is augmented and focused by this affinity, and his concentration on the "here and now" gives him superb focus and awareness of his surroundings.

 

All other things being equal, Qui-Gon's swordsmanship is in a league beyond Plo Koon's. He can spar equally with Mace Windu, and while he probably couldn't beat him that often, he was still a worthy opponent who was considered to be a peer of the greatest swordsman known to the order at that time.

[Beniboybling]

Plo Koon is skilled, but nearly on the level of the real swordmasters like Maul, Windu, and Dooku.

 

I think that Qui-Gon is going to cut him down like a dog in the street. His initial attacks will exploit Plo Koon's lack of mobility to the maximum. The swamp will make it easier for force Plo Koon into terrain that will trip him up (murky water, vines, unsure footing, etc.) while Qui-Gon's mobility and speed will allow him to outflank and outmaneuver Plo Koon.

 

Qui-Gon's incredible affinity with the Living Force allowed him to rediscover the technique of becoming one with the Force, something not even Yoda knew until Qui-Gon figured it out. His swordsmanship is augmented and focused by this affinity, and his concentration on the "here and now" gives him superb focus and awareness of his surroundings.

 

All other things being equal, Qui-Gon's swordsmanship is in a league beyond Plo Koon's. He can spar equally with Mace Windu, and while he probably couldn't beat him that often, he was still a worthy opponent who was considered to be a peer of the greatest swordsman known to the order at that time.

Mmmm... I think in hindsight I'd give the mentality edge to Jinn. While Koon is calm and 'unflappable' Jinn is just as much so, and Koon has never really displayed and particular foresight or tactical ingenuity in battle, nor is there much room for it in such an open location. On the other hand as you say, Jinn's awareness of his surroundings will put him in better stead for moving about the 'arena' and using it to his advantage, as well as adapting quickly to new terrain.

[Aurbere]

Plo Koon is skilled, but nearly on the level of the real swordmasters like Maul, Windu, and Dooku.

 

No, Plo Koon is not on that level, but he isn't outclassed.

 

Though I question why you grouped Maul with Windu.

 

I think that Qui-Gon is going to cut him down like a dog in the street. His initial attacks will exploit Plo Koon's lack of mobility to the maximum. The swamp will make it easier for force Plo Koon into terrain that will trip him up (murky water, vines, unsure footing, etc.) while Qui-Gon's mobility and speed will allow him to outflank and outmaneuver Plo Koon.

 

Dog in the street? I think you overestimate Qui-Gon Jinn. Especially considering that he is past his physical prime.

 

Not only that, but the same environment applies to Qui-Gon Jinn as well. Either one of them could get stuck in muck or tripped up by vines.

 

All other things being equal, Qui-Gon's swordsmanship is in a league beyond Plo Koon's. He can spar equally with Mace Windu, and while he probably couldn't beat him that often, he was still a worthy opponent who was considered to be a peer of the greatest swordsman known to the order at that time.

 

You seem to forget that both Qui-Gon and Maul considered Plo Koon an expert duelist.

[marcelo_sdk]

Plo Koon is skilled, but nearly on the level of the real swordmasters like Maul, Windu, and Dooku.

 

I think that Qui-Gon is going to cut him down like a dog in the street. His initial attacks will exploit Plo Koon's lack of mobility to the maximum. The swamp will make it easier for force Plo Koon into terrain that will trip him up (murky water, vines, unsure footing, etc.) while Qui-Gon's mobility and speed will allow him to outflank and outmaneuver Plo Koon.

 

Qui-Gon's incredible affinity with the Living Force allowed him to rediscover the technique of becoming one with the Force, something not even Yoda knew until Qui-Gon figured it out. His swordsmanship is augmented and focused by this affinity, and his concentration on the "here and now" gives him superb focus and awareness of his surroundings.

 

All other things being equal, Qui-Gon's swordsmanship is in a league beyond Plo Koon's. He can spar equally with Mace Windu, and while he probably couldn't beat him that often, he was still a worthy opponent who was considered to be a peer of the greatest swordsman known to the order at that time.

 

You are overestimating Qui-Gonn and at the same rate, underestimating Plo Koon. The battlefield is much more suitable for Koon. Do you think an unstable environment would help an out-of-form Qui-Gonn? Plus, we already discussed Koon's environment control ability, wich must be taken as a point in favor of the Kel Dor.

 

Qui-Gonn had amazing affinity with the force, yes. But you forget that Koon was, too, very strong with the force. Able to alter the environment, from subtle things like alter the air conditions to incapacitate his opponent, to impressive feats like creating small whirlwinds and lakes. He was a master of telekynesis, able to move objects without having to face them. One of the few Jedi in history who mastered Force Lightning and didn't fall to the Dark Side. Plus, he wore talons over his fingertips, allowing him to further augment his already considerable Force powers.

 

And you misunderstand when say that Qui-Gonn and Windu are even duelists. What is true is that he was one of the few who could put up a fight with Windu, wich are very different things.

Edited April 16, 2013 by marcelo_sdk

[tunewalker]

Honostly the initial thread is very biased in favor of Plo Koon here it honostly looked like the mind was made up before the debate was even started. If some one has no advantages in any form what so ever then he by default loses if he has nothing but weaknesses and his opponent has him beat in all walks of life and combat the chance for victory is none as he has no strengths to play off of and no weaknesses to exploit.

 

That being said I do not believe we gave the proper respect to qui-gon's mental capabilities as a few have already said Plo koon himself believed qui-gon to be mentally superior because qui-gon was. Lack of fore thought is not always a weakness it can be an incredible strength. While it is possible to lead Qui-gon into a trap do to his intent focus on the here and now it makes nothing truely a trap. He adapts to the situation at hand so it doesnt matter that he doesnt know what situation he is GOING to be in he is only focused on the situation he is in. This would mean in combat that he is incredibly adaptible literally changing his strategy to match his opponents (or beat his opponents) as needed if his opponent is not ACTIVELY try to shut down his ataru forms mobility strength down there is literally no way you ARE going to shut him down and in the arena they are in there is plenty of room for qui-gon to use.

So do to his great focus on the here and now any fore planning by plo koon would be a waste of focus on whats going on thus getting him potentially killed faster (which of course works towards Qui-gons favor). Which brings me to my second thing I also believe Qui-gon should have gotten the advantage in lightsaber skills for one reason. His ataru form was exceptional eliminating a lot of the weakness the form is known for having (only one it still has is small places are harder to take advantage of its one strength) and the only real weakness he has are physical limitations and become tired faster (something the form is known for anyway) but thats not truely a weakness of his skill more a weakness of his physical which we already have Koon having the edge in its kind of redundant to give him the same edge twice and as far as I can tell in pure skill Qui-gon was better just physically limited.

 

Honostly have no clue how this is going to go but if i saw a way for Qui-gon to win it would be him taking advantage of Plo-koon's aggressive but slower fighting style, taking advantage of the openings created by plo-koon's attacks as well since he is so focused on the now any lapse in defense for even a fraction of a second will be all qui-gon needs to strike. While any focus for plo-koon to try to trap Qui-gon in such an open area would end up being a waste of focus on the current situation and leave him open to makeing an error which qui-gon will certainly act upon.

Edited April 16, 2013 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

Though I question why you grouped Maul with Windu.

Maul is an exceptional lightsaber duelist, we have no reason to underestimate him. The fact that he could withstand a constant assault from Qui-Gon Jinn wielding Juyo while batting off Obi-Wan Kenobi's equally aggressive assault speaks volumes. He easily outclasses most members of the Jedi Council.

Dog in the street? I think you overestimate Qui-Gon Jinn. Especially considering that he is past his physical prime.

 

Not only that, but the same environment applies to Qui-Gon Jinn as well. Either one of them could get stuck in muck or tripped up by vines.

I think Vent was being a tad harsh, but lets remember that Jinn is going to be far more effective in the environment than Koon is. Given his ability to rapidly adapt to his situation and climate.

You seem to forget that both Qui-Gon and Maul considered Plo Koon an expert duelist.

Praises have to be coupled with feats. And the way I see it, Jinn can fight on par with Mace Windu, whereas Koon was overpowered from an aggressive assault from Savage, a similar assault to which Jinn would unleash on Koon. As much as I'd like to see Koon win this, I don't think he can. The only argument against Jinn is that he'll tire out, but do you really think a master of Ataru such as Jinn, who can fight on par with Mace Windu, would tire out so easily? Against a less accomplished duelist? If so then Jinn's skills are entirely ineffective against skilled duelists, and he should have quit while he was ahead.

 

EDIT: The crux of my argument here is that, given Jinn's mastery over Ataru and the manner in which he handled Maul and has handled other fighters, we can assume he had excellent stamina, despite his age. Similarly, he is also very strong.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Honostly the initial thread is very biased in favor of Plo Koon here it honostly looked like the mind was made up before the debate was even started.

Of course its biased, like he says its his opinion. Not G-Canon fact. The opening thread is merely a means by which Aurbere can convey his initial opinions on the debate, and give it some direction and structure. Not only does this avoid "Jinn wins because he kicks butt" -esque comments but allows Aurbere to give his two cents (although worth much more than that) before the debate begins so he does have to actively involve himself later on and seem biased. And I'm sure that once the debate is up, Aurbere will take into account all the arguments made in this thread before coming to a reasoned decision.

 

Nonetheless you make some good points. And I agree Plo Koon will have to work for his victory, tiring Jinn out by simply holding out isn't going to cut it. I think if Koon could bring his Alter Environment to bear it could be a boon to his success.

[fellblade]

However that quote doesn't really make much sense, unless it was speaking of when Qui-Gon was in his prime state, because then its suggesting that Maul =Mace(which seems rather...odd considering how young Maul was at the time, he was only a couple of years older then Obi-Wan who was a padawan at the time). Environmental factors came into play sure, but after the short duel on Tatooine Maul figured out how to kill Jinn. If at that time, Jinn was still equal to Mace then I don't see how Maul could have figured out how to kill him, he more then likely diminished by the time of TPM compared to his prime state.

 

I just want to point out (because a lot of people seem to believe otherwise)

But Maul is actually 3 years Younger than Obi Wan....

[Wolfninjajedi]

I just want to point out (because a lot of people seem to believe otherwise)

But Maul is actually 3 years Younger than Obi Wan....

 

Oh right, I knew it was either younger or older but I wasn't sure.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[marcelo_sdk]

Just to make clear, I don't think it would be an easy victory for Koon. It would be a rather fierce fight than, for example, Ti vs. Unduli. And I agree that Jinn was superior as a swordsman, but we know that's not enough to grant victory. And as I said before, the fact he could put up a fight with Windu doesn't mean he was an equal of the late.

[Aurbere]

Maul is an exceptional lightsaber duelist, we have no reason to underestimate him. The fact that he could withstand a constant assault from Qui-Gon Jinn wielding Juyo while batting off Obi-Wan Kenobi's equally aggressive assault speaks volumes. He easily outclasses most members of the Jedi Council.

 

Not arguing with you on that point. You are certainly correct. However, when it comes down to it, Mace Windu is better than Maul. Not that that's what we are debating. I think, when it comes to classifying duelists, there are certain duelists in each class that are better than the others in said class.

 

But that's not really what we are here to discuss.

 

I think Vent was being a tad harsh, but lets remember that Jinn is going to be far more effective in the environment than Koon is. Given his ability to rapidly adapt to his situation and climate.

 

That's a good point, but what happens if Qui-Gon gets 'stuck in the mud'? Or Plo Koon gets stuck? What happens if either of them get caught up by the environment?

 

Praises have to be coupled with feats. And the way I see it, Jinn can fight on par with Mace Windu, whereas Koon was overpowered from an aggressive assault from Savage, a similar assault to which Jinn would unleash on Koon. As much as I'd like to see Koon win this, I don't think he can. The only argument against Jinn is that he'll tire out, but do you really think a master of Ataru such as Jinn, who can fight on par with Mace Windu, would tire out so easily? Against a less accomplished duelist? If so then Jinn's skills are entirely ineffective against skilled duelists, and he should have quit while he was ahead.

 

Just re-read that comic, and Plo Koon was not overpowered by Savage. Savage was in mid-attack against a Clone Trooper, and Plo Koon tried to stop him. In the chaos of the moment, Savage swiped Plo's mask away. Of course that's what I can gather, given that half of the panel details Maul cutting down some poor fool and 1/4 of the panel shows the trooper getting attacked with the final panel showing Savage swipe Plo's mask away.

 

So from what I can gather, Plo Koon dropped his guard to save the Clone, and Savage took advantage. The duel was even up until that point.

 

EDIT: The crux of my argument here is that, given Jinn's mastery over Ataru and the manner in which he handled Maul and has handled other fighters, we can assume he had excellent stamina, despite his age. Similarly, he is also very strong.

 

Qui-Gon is a power duelist, you are correct on that notion.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Aurbere