On the brink of leaving

[Devinia-Hex]

Again why does the incentive have to be better gear, it is not like the major PVPers need the advantage. The incentive could be unique skins, speeders, titles etc... that you have to grind for. Giving better tiered gear is just an excuse for allowing people who did the PVP grind first to stomp on those that didn't.

 

There is a reason you have tiered gear itn PVP just like in PVE. If your going to do ranked Warzones you will need better gear than the casual player as your going up against a group that is working together with voice chat etc to win the game. These groups will focus fire and do things that you won't see in a normal Warzone on a regular basis.

 

PVE you have harder content you need better gear all the skill in the world sometimes will not beat mechanics of a PVE encounter simply not enough DPS, Tank doesn't have enough gear for healers to keep them alive etc.

 

PVP is no different once you go to ranked games or if there was an Arena style of play the skill level picks up. The average guy who does his PVP daily is not going to be as geared or have the experience to jump into a Ranked game and be successful just like the avergae daily PVE'er isn't going to have the gear to do Hard mode ops.

 

The only thing they need to do at this point is remove Bolster from 55 PVP that's it. The two tiers of Ranked coms and Warzone gear are close enough together that a skilled lower tier person could beat a better geared person with less skill.

 

I think they will likely bring out another entry level set such as recruit for 55 but Bolster for 55 should be fixed first. If some of you like PVP and do PVP then gear should be a non issue because gear will come. If you don't PVP and just want to hop in to a warzone in your PVE gear then I'm sorry but it doesn't work like that.

[gocard]

There is a reason you have tiered gear itn PVP just like in PVE. If your going to do ranked Warzones you will need better gear than the casual player as your going up against a group that is working together with voice chat etc to win the game. These groups will focus fire and do things that you won't see in a normal Warzone on a regular basis.

 

Mmm, the logic here doesn't quite seem right to me. Essentially, your argument is that in ranked, you wouldn't bring a knife to a gun battle. But, if knives are the only thing that existed, then you'd be fine. You don't need the highest tiered gear in ranked warzones. The only reason you do is because the other team has the highest tiered gear. If gear tiers didn't exist, then the only thing you'd need to be successful in ranked is better communication, teamwork, and skill than the opposing team.

 

The only thing they need to do at this point is remove Bolster from 55 PVP that's it. The two tiers of Ranked coms and Warzone gear are close enough together that a skilled lower tier person could beat a better geared person with less skill.

 

I think they will likely bring out another entry level set such as recruit for 55 but Bolster for 55 should be fixed first. If some of you like PVP and do PVP then gear should be a non issue because gear will come. If you don't PVP and just want to hop in to a warzone in your PVE gear then I'm sorry but it doesn't work like that.

 

How many times have people complained about players showing up in lvl 50 warzones while wearing pve gear rather than their recruit gear? The new bolster's purpose is to eliminate that. Rather than asking players to get the recruit gear and wear it, why not just adjust their stats automatically to the recruit gear level? They've reduced the complexity for trying out pvp. They can't help you be better skill-wise, but they have taken a step to eliminate what's making you bad (showing up in the wrong gear). They just need to fix it so that naked/pve gear is not BiS, but ends up being at the recruit gear tier.

Edited April 15, 2013 by gocard

[Aikon]

They just need to fix it so that naked/pve gear is not BiS, but ends up being at the recruit gear tier.

 

This. Bolster is nice, but it should be (and will be... at least the no clothes part) adjusted. I won't lie though... I am enjoying seeing some new people trying their hand in PvP. The more, the merrier.

[bsbrad]

There is a reason you have tiered gear itn PVP just like in PVE. If your going to do ranked Warzones you will need better gear than the casual player as your going up against a group that is working together with voice chat etc to win the game. These groups will focus fire and do things that you won't see in a normal Warzone on a regular basis.

 

So the reason you want better gear is to fight with people who have better gear, sounds like a circular logic argument.

 

In PVP there is no reason to have gear with stats period, the only reason it has ever existed was to allow a sense of achievement (which could be attained via titles, new skins, etc...). The problem is that unless all the gear is the same in PVP you end up with the disparity that we had pre-2.0 where top-tiered teams were sleepwalking through the matches.

 

In PVE the reason for gear is to beat the bosses, now granted they could remove the gear restrictions (give bosses less damage, less health etc.,..) but then it wouldn't be a time sink to keep you coming back to the game to play. PVP doesn't have this restriction as the time sink should be the match itself and competing against "equally" skilled players.

 

The problems MMOs of this genre encounter is the trying to balance the skills to suit both PVP and PVE related aspects, for instance Guild Wars ended up splitting up the skill trees to try to retain some semblance of balance. There will always be situations where some skills (combination of skills) cause imbalance in the game (**cough** smash) that the developers didn't forsee and if they take out the nerf bat there will be outcries of pain thoroughout the world. Usually it is better for MMO developers to buff other skills than to apply the nerf bat (as this causes less QQ'ing, and makes the PVE centric players have a harder time beating enrage timers) but then you get to the situation we have at the moment (bolster) where the TTK is way too quick and hitting 1 mill+ for dmg and healing is easily attainable.

 

Back to the gear topic, how about if the roles were reversed, ie. implementing a handicap system. This would mean remove the gear grind and give everyone equal gear for PVP (which can be easily done by only allowing non-moddable PVP specific armor for WZs, i.e. you cannot leave the start area of the WZ with non-PVP armor equipped and you cannot change armor outside the start area) then for every Valor level you gain you get a -0.5% dmg reduction, -0.5% dmg and -0.5% heals so when you hit valor 100 you will be -50% across the board. Sort of like a reverse expertise. In Ranked WZs we can remove the handicap as most of these players will be Valor 100 anyway

 

Eventually when everyone gets to Valor 100 you will all be on equal footing, if fighting people below your Valor you will be handicapped thereby allowing them an advantage as your knowledge, skill and coordination of the WZ should help you overcome this handicap??

 

Again sorry about the walls of text.....I suppose at least they are fixing bolster soon

[xContex]

So the reason you want better gear is to fight with people who have better gear, sounds like a circular logic argument.

 

In PVP there is no reason to have gear with stats period, the only reason it has ever existed was to allow a sense of achievement (which could be attained via titles, new skins, etc...). The problem is that unless all the gear is the same in PVP you end up with the disparity that we had pre-2.0 where top-tiered teams were sleepwalking through the matches.

 

No offense but you are completely wrong. Ranked PVP pre-2.0 was competitive. The teams that came out strong were teams fully geared and ready to go. Those who were stomped on were those who were A) Unprepared B) Ungeared or C) Combination of the 2. To say certain teams won because of gear is a real naive thing to say. Now I do agree with you that there should not be a gear grind in PVP. Unfortunately we have one currently. Bolster however was changed to account for that and to accommodate those with less time/efforts.

[bsbrad]

No offense but you are completely wrong. Ranked PVP pre-2.0 was competitive. The teams that came out strong were teams fully geared and ready to go. Those who were stomped on were those who were A) Unprepared B) Ungeared or C) Combination of the 2. To say certain teams won because of gear is a real naive thing to say. Now I do agree with you that there should not be a gear grind in PVP. Unfortunately we have one currently. Bolster however was changed to account for that and to accommodate those with less time/efforts.

 

No offense taken Scyn and while I agree that the Ranked environment is handled better (thank to those taking part and good communication between guild leaders with at least a modicum of rules set beforehand) I was talking more about the non-Ranked matches. Sorry for this misunderstanding. As this is primarily where most PVP is fought. It is also where the vast majority of players get there experience of PVP and I know I would prefer more people being able to get into PVP and feel they are competitive (as this would promote more Ranked teams). Of course they will find it hard to compete against a fully co-ordinated team using VOIP but that is honestly what Ranked matches are supposed to be for. I am sure pre 2.0 the EWH Augs got bored squashing undergeared players just like the Campaign raiders got bored of anything less than TfB as they was no challenge.

 

I hope the bolster system is improved and the TTK is toned down as this may help. As I mentioned in a previous post that the best players will always rise to the top and that WZs are won more by co--ordinated teams than the lone player stomping through the zone. However, in non-Ranked matches you can have situations where an overpowered player is being triple teamed by the opposing players and they are barely scratching them (I know I have been on both ends of the fight and I know my classes fairly well). This should never happen.

[Targarion]

Mmm, the logic here doesn't quite seem right to me. Essentially, your argument is that in ranked, you wouldn't bring a knife to a gun battle. But, if knives are the only thing that existed, then you'd be fine. You don't need the highest tiered gear in ranked warzones. The only reason you do is because the other team has the highest tiered gear. If gear tiers didn't exist, then the only thing you'd need to be successful in ranked is better communication, teamwork, and skill than the opposing team.

.

 

I agree.

[ZooMzy]

Personally, I've always looked at the analogy of gear to a player in a similar manner that training is to an athlete. For those that put the effort and time into grinding gear, you could see it as the same concept as an athlete that dedicates time and effort into their training, where both pursuits are for one goal: to be a high end competitor/player.

 

But in the world of athletics, training isn't everything just as gear is not everything. There have been athletes that have spent no time in preparation before their competitive games/races/etc. and still dominated without that prior training, just as you occasionally see the really talented player stomping people in WZs with Recruit gear. The grind for gear and the training are a means to obtain the rewards for showing dedication and hard work, that are meant for one purpose only: to put you on a level to compete. The athletes that train and work harder to beat their opponents are naturally going to be at an advantage over the competitors that didn't show as much dedication, just like how PvPers that have grinded the gear will naturally have an advantage over those who didn't. All the gear does is put you on a higher level to compete, and just like in athletics, training/gear doesn't grant you success. It's how the athlete uses it when it matters, in the competition, that defines if he/she is a good athlete just as it is in PvP where how a player utilizes their resources (skills, gear, general PvP tactics) is how their skill in PvP is defined.

 

So when someone makes a complaint that they lost because of gear, then perhaps there could be weight to it if it was a close battle. But if you have one team roflstomping another one, the excuse of gear does not fly at all because communication and team composition play a more important role in PvP than any end game PvP gear out there can possibly hope for.

 

Anyway, just felt like dropping my two cents

Edited April 16, 2013 by ZooMzy

[JenseitsvonBose]

Personally, I've always looked at the analogy of gear to a player in a similar manner that training is to an athlete.

 

The problem with this analogy is that athletes are paid to do what they do

[Targarion]

Personally, I've always looked at the analogy of gear to a player in a similar manner that training is to an athlete. For those that put the effort and time into grinding gear, you could see it as the same concept as an athlete that dedicates time and effort into their training, where both pursuits are for one goal: to be a high end competitor/player.

Anyway, just felt like dropping my two cents

 

That analogy doesn't work for me, because training is repetition. Repetition increases a players understanding, experience and skill in game. Even if gear wasn't a factor in swtor, you would still require these important assets to be competitive. Gear is more like steroids - A piece of utility that greatly enhances some ones performance/conditioning that diminishes after the effects ware off or is removed from the player's character.

 

Training an athlete can't be removed. It's buff is intrinsic not external. I am not sure if I am making sense here.

[bsbrad]

For those that don't read the patch notes Expertise has been removed from all the WH/EWH pieces (with the exception of the color crystals and relics) so WH is now the same stats as ilvl 61 and EWH has the same stats as ilvl 63.

 

The naked bolster has alledgedly also been fixed (although didnt have time to try this morning).

 

So for all those people (myself included) who upgraded to EWH before the patch, the grind starts again.

 

Also I agree with the previous poster the gear is not akin to training as the fact you play the WZs at all is more akin to training, i.e. you know the objectives, when to call incoming etc.... Co-ordination wins WZs when equally geared players play.

[ZooMzy]

That analogy doesn't work for me, because training is repetition. Repetition increases a players understanding, experience and skill in game. Even if gear wasn't a factor in swtor, you would still require these important assets to be competitive. Gear is more like steroids - A piece of utility that greatly enhances some ones performance/conditioning that diminishes after the effects ware off or is removed from the player's character.

 

Training an athlete can't be removed. It's buff is intrinsic not external. I am not sure if I am making sense here.

 

Well, I meant it in a metaphorical sense of how the training impacts your performance in a competition. Training in itself is also not neccesarily repetition, since training could mean anything and has a large variety of aspects to it (Lift weights, running miles, practice drills, etc.). I think this game tries to mimic the aspect of how putting the effort into training in a competitive environment will put you at a level that is dependant on how your competition prepares through training, hence why gear mismatches between opponents is reminescent of that kind of aspect to competition.

 

Like athletics, all athletes seek to have the greatest advantage coming in but understand that it doesn't give you a victory. The failing though of my analogy is what you pointed out though, since gear can be removed while "training" can't. So just imagine an athlete who suddenly loses his conditioning and etc. and I guess my analogy would state that's the equivalent of taking off good gear

 

So my whole point was grinding the gear is like training to prepare for a competition; the final product of grinding the gear being the gear itself, while the final product of the training for a competition is the state of physical and mental conditioning that player has coming into the competition. Just because you put yourself in a place to compete doesn't neccesarily mean you will win, or even come close to it. One half of the game is preparation, and the other half is the competition itself. The only reason why people are so big on the idea that gear is neccesary is because if you don't have the first half, you are at a disadvantage from the start. The problem comes from believing that because you are at a disadvantage from the very beginning, there is no chance to win. Which is very to start thinking if it's from the start, hence why you hear a good amount of gear arguments in the general chat :/

 

I think I understood your point though, although it all depends if my response sounds like I completely messed up on understand your point

Edited April 16, 2013 by ZooMzy

[bsbrad]

Zoomzy, taking your analogy even further, the best athletes in the world train to get better to succeed in their sport whether it be track, javellin, tennis, football, baseball etc... All these sports have "gear", although even the common man on the street can buy the exact same gear, the difference between the best athlete and the common man is not the gear but the amount of dedication to the sport that they put in, hence upping their skill in their chosen event.

 

For instance, I play tennis fairly competitievly but even though I use the same raquet (with the same tension, grip etc...) as Roger Federer, I would get slaughtered if I entered a Grand Slam. Just like two people in the same gear in PVP do not have the same skill level. Those arguing for a "gear" advantage is just that they want an advantage over players with better skill or just so they can smash people with lesser gear. I do not see how this is an incentive to PVP.

 

Sure when everyone has the same gear level the skillful players show through, just like the best athletes do, but the gear should not be what make the difference as it is in all WOW clone MMOs

[Jaddis]

I wish they would have left in recruit level gear, except instead of having the stats so below Partisan it was similar to the level of WH to EWH. I mean, I'm grateful that there won't be pugs with 12k health and I understand what BW wanted to do, but a lot of players want to feel as if the fact that they pvp more allows them access to better gear. Previously, we received a set of free gear with recruit, some people didn't use it, but that is their fault. People want to feel a sense of accomplishment and customization, at least I do, and for me that comes from grinding out the gear. I don't care about titles or speeders.

 

So just make a level of gear that makes casuals comparable but still have pvp gear that is slightly better for people to work for. Then, no more bolster at 55, yay!

Edited April 16, 2013 by Jaddis

[Riggz]

I wish they would have left in recruit level gear, except instead of having the stats so below Partisan it was similar to the level of WH to EWH. I mean, I'm grateful that there won't be pugs with 12k health and I understand what BW wanted to do, but a lot of players want to feel as if the fact that they pvp more allows them access to better gear. Previously, we received a set of free gear with recruit, some people didn't use it, but that is their fault. People want to feel a sense of accomplishment and customization, at least I do, and for me that comes from grinding out the gear. I don't care about titles or speeders.

 

So just make a level of gear that makes casuals comparable but still have pvp gear that is slightly better for people to work for. Then, no more bolster at 55, yay!

 

I wish there was a way to keep PvE'ers out of warzones - then we wouldn't need bolster

[sithheroes]

I dont pvp enough to care, but this seems like a big **** you to all those who do.

[ZooMzy]

Zoomzy, taking your analogy even further, the best athletes in the world train to get better to succeed in their sport whether it be track, javellin, tennis, football, baseball etc... All these sports have "gear", although even the common man on the street can buy the exact same gear, the difference between the best athlete and the common man is not the gear but the amount of dedication to the sport that they put in, hence upping their skill in their chosen event.

 

For instance, I play tennis fairly competitievly but even though I use the same raquet (with the same tension, grip etc...) as Roger Federer, I would get slaughtered if I entered a Grand Slam. Just like two people in the same gear in PVP do not have the same skill level. Those arguing for a "gear" advantage is just that they want an advantage over players with better skill or just so they can smash people with lesser gear. I do not see how this is an incentive to PVP.

 

Sure when everyone has the same gear level the skillful players show through, just like the best athletes do, but the gear should not be what make the difference as it is in all WOW clone MMOs

 

Well, gear in this game is not gear in athletics. Unlike using the same raquets, shoes, etc., the gear in this video game gives you better stats than the other levels which directly affects how big your numbers are in a way similar to if you look at the concept of training. I wasn't comparing the gear in game to that in the real world, simply because in the real world, you have to physically work for your conditioning, while in game, they try to mimick that same process through the gear system.

 

How do you get faster in a sprinting contest? You run repeats, you do leg workouts, and the combination of things makes you capable of being one of the top sprinters in a contest (You also need fast muscle twitch fibers, but we don't need to get into that ;P). Now take that and compare it to the game, where you grind comms and constantly put yourself in situation where you are not at the best level you can be at. The combination of spending the time and effort to get the gear makes you have better stats, thus making you able to be one of the top PvPers.

 

Look at the key wording there though: able, meaning capability. Since this game is not something where you can physically test yourself, the devs created a system of gear to create a similar structure to the way training prepares you for competition in the world of athletics, where it is not all about your skill level nor is it all about your preparation for the contest. If this game was all skill, then you can easily imagine this game turning into a similar style of competitive play as Call of Duty, where anyone can be good at the game if they figure it out. And from personal experience with that game, I got bored of the multiplayer FPS really quickly because it was just flat out boring; no sense of accomplishment that ultimately left me quitting nearly every version of the game because of the lack of achievement (Golden guns aren't exactly inspiring to me to keep playing where everyone pretty much is the same :/). Yet at the same time, people complain because they believe all you need to have in this game is good gear and that in turn makes you good.

 

In reality though, the game is designed to be rewarding not for players who are all skill based, nor to those that are all based on preparation and no skill. It rewards those who are capable of combining both of those things together; and the complaints esculate when there are a multitude of people that are capable of dominating any WZ and at the same time, have this gear advantage over everyone else. And the reasoning behind it is because it is identical to the world of athletics, where the best athletes are not just talented nor are they just hard working, but the best combination between the two.

Edited April 16, 2013 by ZooMzy

[JamesBalla]

I wish there was a way to keep PvE'ers out of warzones - then we wouldn't need bolster

 

Ignorant.

[Jaddis]

I wish there was a way to keep PvE'ers out of warzones - then we wouldn't need bolster

 

Removing DR from expertise was aimed at making PVE gear less useful in PVP, right?

 

And I'm going to pretend you mean PVE gear, not PVErs themselves. At least for me, the more the merrier in pvp. Keep those queues popping!

[JenseitsvonBose]

I wish there was a way to keep PvE'ers out of warzones - then we wouldn't need bolster

 

Takes ball and goes home...

[Raazmir]

I just really wish they'd used the old bolster system, scaled differently for the 1-30 and 31-54 brackets, then reworked expertise to scale proportionally with your level similarly to how wow does it with secondary stats and replaced all the presence gear with expertise gear. Suddenly armormech, armstech, and synthweaving become viable choices for craft skills since you can crank out expertise epics.

[BoxCarBalls]

When I was younger and played competitive sports I had a coach tell me this, and it has stuck with me to this day: "You will never get better if you don't take yourself out of your comfort zone."

 

Pre 2.0 comfort zone = unbolstered gear disparity

2.0 = I'm getting better with every match because I don't kill ungeared nubs in 3 globals as I did pre 2.0, and I have to work for it.

 

This may not apply to some folks as I have friends who would rather outgear someone than outskill them.

 

 

Long story short: The bolster system gives the people who don't have a SWTOR IV a chance to compete with the poopsockers (you know who you are, lol) without having to feel like they are fish in a barrel. I'm excited for another round of bolster related changes on Tuesday.

 

and on another note...

KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNN!!!!!!!

[Riggz]

Whoops I meant keep PvE Gear out of warzones not PvE'ers themselves. Lots and lots of good players who are PvE'ers PvP.

[hulcalan]

I'm Yidden and I said something interesting.

 

Honestly, I see it kinda leveling out with the intro of pvp gear and stuff ttk is less unbearable. Bolster had good intentions, but what I am seeing is those ppl that whined "gear gap is too much" or "we can't win b/c it's a premade" still sucking. Bioware fails to realize you can't fix stupid lol.

 

~edit~ early mornings suck I had to edit this 4 times lol

Edited April 22, 2013 by hulcalan

[ZooMzy]

Honestly, I see it kinda leveling out with the intro of pvp gear and stuff ttk is less unbearable. Bolster had good intentions, but what I am seeing is those ppl that whined "gear gap is too much" or "we can't win b/c it's a premade" still sucking. Bioware fails to realize you can't fix stupid lol.

 

Well the bolster system also didn't just make it where gear was a problem. It basically destroyed the point of it altogether, where the best geared players where the ones who wore the PvE stuff since it boosted it to be better than anything that the PvP gear gives you.

 

Which personally, I think is ridiculous. Sure, fighting based solely on skill does make you a better player, but it never makes you the best. The best players, in this game and in any other competitive type of contest, have to have more than skill simply because skill only covers what happens when you're in the "battle". Take for example, marathoners.

 

Doesn't matter how good of a runner you are or how smart you are at pacing yourself, you're going to get crushed if you enter the race against someone who has prepared for it way more than you did (hypothetically). And that's why I never really felt sorry for people that whine about gear issues if they are wearing War Hero in comparison to Elite War Hero, simply because they refuse to see the real problem. Gear is not going to determine who wins a match unless you have an entire team that completely outmatches another, the real problem being team compisition a majority of a time. People complain that a side gets crushed, yet they blame gear before they understand that the only types of players they had on their team were DPS. Wondering how tanks and healers could nerf their damage and undo it entirely at the same time -_-

 

Bolster, however, does not turn this game into a skill based game since there is still a way to exploit what the devs were still trying to create. Just watch when they either completely take it out in the 55 bracket, and no more raiders will que up/suddenly become easier to kill