It's great to PVE with no Damage Meters

[ironix]

You act like there are only 2 choices. Bad dpser who listens, or good dps who isn't mindful of his surroundings.

 

Would you rather have:

 

a) Guy who shows up, stays out of fire, does great damage because he has tools available to optimize his dps.

 

b) Guy who shows up, stays out of fire, does terrible damage but is an agreeable person.

 

There is an option D, which we tend to desire AND have in our raid.

 

d) Guy who shows up, stays out of fire, does great damage and/or healing because he has tools available to optimize his dps and/or healing AND is an agreeable person.

[AlpsStranger]

d) Guy who shows up, stays out of fire, does great damage and/or healing because he has tools available to optimize his dps and/or healing AND is an agreeable person.

 

Also known as like 75% of hardline raiders despite jealousy motivated stereotypes.

Edited December 21, 2011 by AlpsStranger

[Bigguyonarock]

True, Everquest, the first MMO with what can be called raids, came out in '99.

 

Did UO have raids? Or was it all Sandbox PvP?

 

Or MMO Muds?

 

I honestly don't know. EQ was my first.

 

I remember EQ being extremely exclusive at end-game though. Each server only had a few guilds that actually killed any raid content.

[Jett-Rinn]

Better yet, they could give people this thing called an "ignore" function, and they could ignore someone who spams dps meters.

 

I know, I know, CRAZY TALK.

 

That's me, insane Yfelsung.

 

No actually you make a good point....but lets for a moment play Outhouse prophet.

 

The ignore list in SWTOR is big to huge; chat is easy to minimize and with the cinematic element a person could happily ignore everyone in her group with zero loss of game play experience. So we have frustrated players screaming insults in chat (which I might add that Bioware has already established a behavior of perma banning for unlike Blizzard) that no one hears or cares about, kicking so far hurts the entire group because then it's back to spamming LFM and there is no deserter debuff for simply taking your leave of a bad situation.

 

So even if Bioware gave the finger to over half of the population and allowed meters...it wouldn't be the same scene as WoW as you would have jerks screaming into nothingness with zero effect.

 

And I know Bioware has already thought of this and it's another reason they are looking for a way to serve both sides of the coin....it's not about being on any side to them; it's about improving the experience.

[Airinya]

Honestly, who cares about "The Realm" or "Meridian 59" when discussing something like this.

 

We used to use graph paper in dungeon crawlers too, who the **** cares when discussing game design in 2011?

 

I care because I don't want to play a game where a handful of vocal crybabies get the game so catered to them that it wipes their butt. Also, I don't want raid content built around addons - as has happened in numerous other MMOS (particularly WoW).

[Yfelsung]

Theory crafting has existed since, well, since BEFORE THE INVENTION OF RPGS.

 

The modern RPG was birthed from Pen and Paper RPGs, which have A LOT of theory crafting.

 

Those Pen and Paper RPGs were birthed from tabletop war games which, again, were pretty much ALL THEORY CRAFTING.

 

People were fiddling with character builds back in the bloody 70s and 80s to maximize combat performance.

 

I can make you a level 6th fighter in 3.5 D&D that can do over 200 damage in one swing.

 

Some of us enjoy this type of thing.

[Rhazz]

It is so nice not having damage meters. No one can tell what a baddie I am. Love being carried by a group of three!

 

This.

 

I don't like wiping on the same boss 3 times and still having to wonder why we are failing. Is the fight going on too long? If so, who's not pulling their weight? Are the heals too slow?

 

I have to scratch my head every time. It's frustrating. The only people this negatively affects are people who are bad at mmos.

[AlpsStranger]

I care because I don't want to play a game where a handful of vocal crybabies get the game so catered to them that it wipes their butt. Also, I don't want raid content built around addons - as has happened in numerous other MMOS (particularly WoW).

 

*Your* side is the vocal minority. You'll lose this, you know you'll lose this, and that's why you and yours are so vocal in every game that comes out.

 

The raid-catering steamroller may not be here just yet, but they're gassing it up. Get ready for a Recount.

 

We're advocating the natural comfort zone for the raiding world at large. You're attempting to talk Bioware into advocating a preserve for the innumerate.

Edited December 21, 2011 by AlpsStranger

[Yfelsung]

I care because I don't want to play a game where a handful of vocal crybabies get the game so catered to them that it wipes their butt. Also, I don't want raid content built around addons - as has happened in numerous other MMOS (particularly WoW).

 

If it's a minority that wants it, what harm is it in giving it to them.

 

Since they're a minority, you won't run into people using them, right?

 

So what's the problem?

 

The "vocal crybaby" argument and the "everyone will use it and ruin the game" argument can't work at the same time. They're mutually exclusive. It's one or the other.

[Skeelol]

This.

 

I don't like wiping on the same boss 3 times and still having to wonder why we are failing. Is the fight going on too long? If so, who's not pulling their weight? Are the heals too slow?

 

I have to scratch my head every time. It's frustrating. The only people this negatively affects are people who are bad at mmos.

 

Yep which brings us to a very interesting conclusion:

 

Let's all intentionally be worse than them, stop carrying them around and see how they like it then when there's no more progress.

 

=)

[GalacticKegger]

And they often used to guess wrong at who wasn't performing.

 

"Bill has been just auto-attacking the whole time, let's bring someone else."

"What? No I wasn't, I was using my rotation the whole time!"

"Oh yeah? Prove it."

"Well, I can't with any real numbers because there are no meters..."

"See, he's a baddie! Kick him out of the raid!"

Meters schmeters... finding the weakest link in a chain is as simple as jerking the chain. Edited December 21, 2011 by GalacticKegger

[Caelrie]

I found it!

 

http://torwars.com/wp-content/uploads/Podcasts/fan_sum_02_qa_georg_zoeller.mp3

 

Interviewer: So we talk about analytics and what you guys do on the developer side. Players like to do their own analytics and how to improve their characters. What tools int he game help you do that? Will you be able to export a combat log or anything like that?

 

Georg Zoeller: Not at this point, but it's something very high on our priority list

 

Interviewer: What's the pro and con of having something like that in? What's your approach to players min-maxing?

 

Georg Zoeller: I have no problem with players min-maxing. I'm min-maxing myself. We do have pretty good... the tooltips are pretty good. The information on the items I think is pretty good. We're right now lacking a bit is in the evaluating your performance or your group's performance. Umm what I can tell you is there's no conspiracy where we're like we're hiding this so people aren't discriminating against other players. If you want to, you know, run a very competitive operations group and you wanna improve, having this data is certainly interesting. Umm and we're not against it, it's just right now not in. Will it make it in for launch? We don't know at this point but it's very high priority.

 

-------------------------

 

This should utterly put to rest the debate on Bioware's stance on DPS metering.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Caelrie

[Kurnea]

Uhhh no.. no they didn't. Not sure what kind of group you used to raid with or why you think it's ok to externalize your poor experience to millions of players. One thing is fact though, people raided before damage meters.

 

Yes, and people raided after them. Personally I preferred the option of having solid data to refer to in any raid I was in myself. Funny thing is those against meters are also justifying that based off of externalizing their poor experiences, when I raided numerous times with meters and didn't experience any problems doing so.

[Frostvein]

I think I worded my previous post a bit harshly (had an irate person storm into my office over something I didn't have anything to do with) so I'll reiterate.

 

I have no problem, none whatsover with people wanting to play how they want when they want. Its a game, have fun, right?

 

The problem arises when people who can't/won't/don't bother for whatever reason, valid or not, to improve their character to a minimally functioning level start to group with everyone else. At that moment, the needs of the group outweigh the needs of one person - its the very reason, the core behind having a group. You acknowledge that you need those other people to help you achieve the goal - which typically happens to be killing something.

 

Everyone's definition of fun may be different, but I can sure as hell confirm that repeatedly wiping to a boss/encounter is not. Maybe the first 3-5 times, ok. But at some point, the act of being repeatedly dying begins to cause the members of the group to stop having fun.

 

Why should the members of the group be prohibited from using or having a tool that will help them be successful? Telling people that having a recount like function ruins the game is like telling a mathematician that having a calculator ruins math. Sure, some idiots will misuse a DPS type addon, just like some idiots will spell '80085" on a calculator. Point being, the tool is useful and just because some people don't utilize it properly doesn't make it bad or wrong for the game.

 

If you are the type of person who "just likes to play casually" that is cool, man, Really, I don't mind. I only care when MY fun is affected by your play-style. Telling me that MY idea of fun is somehow less important then yours is unbelievably selfish, almost as selfish as joining a group without being able to function on an acceptable level.

[owenthorn]

I hope they never bring them, or addons

and please, don't start with the I am a baddie, in a certain other game I pull over 30K dps in 25 man end game raids, lemme guess, that is sad dps, w/e you need to say to feel better, since a certain person dismisses everything that doesn't agree with his mindset

 

my reason why

 

yes, I know pugging, 5 man cata, level of people is varied, I got it

but, I was playing with 4 from my realm, all top end raiders, healer was from another realm

we pull the trash, 5 pack, in the first 5 or so seconds, I am dead, wipe soon follows

we asked the healer, since we didn't know him, have you healed these runs before?

no insults, no screaming, we are raiders, we die we figure out what happened, we don't blame people

 

You know what the healer did?? that's right, he/she links the dps meter, never answered us, so after a minute or so we kicked him

 

playing swtor it feels like a game, like an mmo should be

I look at my wow screen, I have so many mods/addons running, if you didn't know it was wow, you would ask what game it was

 

wow culture has debased itself so much, if you don't run all these things, you don't raid, you just don't get to play the game on any real level, it has gotten so bad now the new 25 man raid is in three flavors, a pug version with slightly reduced gear, first half only, almost no mechanics, easy mode, but lets people see some end game, normal and then heroic

 

these hardcore elite ******es, are less than 1% of your subs, but they demand everything be made in their image, when they announced the raid finder tool, for easy mode, the hardcore said ********, now scrubs get in content they don't belong in, and will get gear they don't deserve, really......

 

SO now other people decide what you can and cannot do in the game( hint meters)

 

guess what, the top hardcore guilds, they kept a bug to themselves about the tool, and on live exploited the raid finder to get full gear sets,

 

I hope no meters/addons/instant que and port to any operation flashpoint dungeon etc...

 

say what you want, I want to play the game, not stare at meters and cooldown timers rotation windows

[VorpalK]

I prefer more information to less.

[AlpsStranger]

I found it!

 

http://torwars.com/wp-content/uploads/Podcasts/fan_sum_02_qa_georg_zoeller.mp3

 

Interviewer: So we talk about analytics and what you guys do on the developer side. Players like to do their own analytics and how to improve their characters. What tools int he game help you do that? Will you be able to export a combat log or anything like that?

 

Georg Zoeller: Not at this point, but it's something very high on our priority list

 

Interviewer: What's the pro and con of having something like that in? What's your approach to players min-maxing?

 

Georg Zoeller: I have no problem with players min-maxing. I'm min-maxing myself. We do have pretty good... the tooltips are pretty good. The information on the items I think is pretty good. We're right now lacking a bit is in the evaluating your performance or your group's performance. Umm what I can tell you is there's no conspiracy where we're like we're hiding this so people aren't discriminated against other players. If you want to, you know, run a very competitive operations group and you wanna improve, having this data is certainly interesting. Umm and we're not against it, it's just right now not in. Will it make it in for launch? We don't know at this point but it's very high priority.

 

-------------------------

 

This should utterly put to rest the debate on Bioware's stance on DPS metering.

 

You rule Caelrie!

 

I told you guys, this battle is over. Incoming DPS meter in 3... 2... 1...

[Kurnea]

If it's a minority that wants it, what harm is it in giving it to them.

 

Since they're a minority, you won't run into people using them, right?

 

So what's the problem?

 

The "vocal crybaby" argument and the "everyone will use it and ruin the game" argument can't work at the same time. They're mutually exclusive. It's one or the other.

 

But the problem is EVERYONE wants to use meters and therefore forces them to use meters and.... oh, I see what you did there:)

[Skeelol]

I found it!

 

http://torwars.com/wp-content/uploads/Podcasts/fan_sum_02_qa_georg_zoeller.mp3

 

Interviewer: So we talk about analytics and what you guys do on the developer side. Players like to do their own analytics and how to improve their characters. What tools int he game help you do that? Will you be able to export a combat log or anything like that?

 

Georg Zoeller: Not at this point, but it's something very high on our priority list

 

Interviewer: What's the pro and con of having something like that in? What's your approach to players min-maxing?

 

Georg Zoeller: I have no problem with players min-maxing. I'm min-maxing myself. We do have pretty good... the tooltips are pretty good. The information on the items I think is pretty good. We're right now lacking a bit is in the evaluating your performance or your group's performance. Umm what I can tell you is there's no conspiracy where we're like we're hiding this so people aren't discriminating against other players. If you want to, you know, run a very competitive operations group and you wanna improve, having this data is certainly interesting. Umm and we're not against it, it's just right now not in. Will it make it in for launch? We don't know at this point but it's very high priority.

 

-------------------------

 

This should utterly put to rest the debate on Bioware's stance on DPS metering.

 

This. Case closed. =)

[Colobulous]

What is sad is people who come to a game that does not suit their liking and instead of moving on, they expect the game to conform to their standards. You adapt to the world around you, the world does not adapt to you.

 

That explains why I live in a house, with electricity, that was built, and constructed using a whole lot of tools, instead of I dunno, growing a thick fur coat.

[Jett-Rinn]

This. Case closed. =)

 

Case hardly closed.

 

When they are in and exactly like you said they will be the case will be closed. Right they are not in and Bioware is very aware of the concerns over them by a huge segment of the population.

 

in other words

 

it ain't over till it's over.

[Yfelsung]

^ why I don't like em too.

 

 

Rude, e peen bragging people.

 

It's not epeen bragging if you only point out someone sucking and don't point out how awesome you did.

 

If someone does half my DPS and I say "You are really bad at this game", I'm not stroking my epeen, I'm informing a sub-par player of their lack of skill.

 

I'm a tank, I never brag about my DPS. But if I, as the tank, out DPS you, you're going to know about your failure to perform.

 

Being out dpsed by a tank is unacceptable, it means we could have brought a second tank and done better than bringing a DPSer.

[Skeelol]

Case hardly closed.

 

When they are in and exactly like you said they will be the case will be closed. Right they are not in and Bioware is very aware of the concerns over them by a huge segment of the population.

 

in other words

 

it ain't over till it's over.

 

You can keep distorting facts as much as you like, reality is they will be implemented very very soon

[Zhit]

say what you want, I want to play the game, not stare at meters and cooldown timers rotation windows

 

Have to agree with you there! Who wants to look at a conveniently placed, usable cooldown monitor. We can instead stare at our toolbars. Watching the encounter is so over-rated. It is so much easier to watch the encounter after dieing from standing in fire...

[TradewindNQ]

I hope they never bring them, or addons

and please, don't start with the I am a baddie, in a certain other game I pull over 30K dps in 25 man end game raids, lemme guess, that is sad dps, w/e you need to say to feel better, since a certain person dismisses everything that doesn't agree with his mindset

 

my reason why

 

yes, I know pugging, 5 man cata, level of people is varied, I got it

but, I was playing with 4 from my realm, all top end raiders, healer was from another realm

we pull the trash, 5 pack, in the first 5 or so seconds, I am dead, wipe soon follows

we asked the healer, since we didn't know him, have you healed these runs before?

no insults, no screaming, we are raiders, we die we figure out what happened, we don't blame people

 

You know what the healer did?? that's right, he/she links the dps meter, never answered us, so after a minute or so we kicked him

 

playing swtor it feels like a game, like an mmo should be

I look at my wow screen, I have so many mods/addons running, if you didn't know it was wow, you would ask what game it was

 

wow culture has debased itself so much, if you don't run all these things, you don't raid, you just don't get to play the game on any real level, it has gotten so bad now the new 25 man raid is in three flavors, a pug version with slightly reduced gear, first half only, almost no mechanics, easy mode, but lets people see some end game, normal and then heroic

 

these hardcore elite ******es, are less than 1% of your subs, but they demand everything be made in their image, when they announced the raid finder tool, for easy mode, the hardcore said ********, now scrubs get in content they don't belong in, and will get gear they don't deserve, really......

 

SO now other people decide what you can and cannot do in the game( hint meters)

 

guess what, the top hardcore guilds, they kept a bug to themselves about the tool, and on live exploited the raid finder to get full gear sets,

 

I hope no meters/addons/instant que and port to any operation flashpoint dungeon etc...

 

say what you want, I want to play the game, not stare at meters and cooldown timers rotation windows

 

Not surprised this is 59 pages long and according to this post above I know exactly why. It reeks of some LFR WoW Raider who has been passed over for being a detriment to their guild or raid group. 30K in "current content" is not good, but that's beside the point.

 

A Meter is not always a tool for preening elitist ***** to lord over you with their meters. It is however a great way to make sure a person (read: individual) has a tool to quickly assess how they themselves are doing. "Did I do better this time than last time?" "What could I improve on?" "how was my uptime?" While it might be enough for yourself and those like you to just show up, clatter off a subpar run and go to bed happy even though you did it on the backs of others; for some of us it is more to do with the challenge of growing as a player. Becoming an expert at their class and then being able to show it to others.

 

Generalizing all people who used mods and meters in WoW the way some of you are is just ignorant as ****. Especially that jackwagon from page 1 who is crying about how people kick others from guilds over it and don't help...yeah we all do that, clearly. Because 1 bad experience is obviously consistent across everyone in the game.

 

Most mods otherwise are cosmetic, aside from boss mods which are just for timers mostly. Timers to help you, you know...time your **** better...to get the most out of your character and help the group. I use mods to clear away the clutter the default UI's always have.

Edited December 21, 2011 by TradewindNQ