Raiding questions

[ZaraGrace]

A bit of background - I recently retired from raiding in WOW - I was in a very highly ranked guild and we all used a lot of mods while raiding.

 

I have never tried raiding in SWToR - but I'm thinking I'd like to give it a shot - especially now that the level cap is going up and everyone will be on even ground with gear.

 

However, part of the reason I never raided in SW was because there were no mods - I am wondering if anything has changed (I"ve been on an long SW break)...

 

How do you know when an ability has proc'd beyond staring at your bars? I HATE to do to that. I have all my abilities keybound and I prefer to watch the fight and my feet, not stare at my bars and try to figure out when an ability is ready or when an ability has proc'd. Same goes for cooldowns - how do I know when they are active - just stare at my bars again to see when they end?

 

My "main" is a sniper, but I have a healer too - how do I know when someone has a debuff that needs to be removed - you have to just cycle through everyone in the group and then mouseover their debuff?

 

How do I know which debuff on the target is mine - if there are 2 of the same class in the group - how do you tell the difference?

 

I am curious how people that raid on a serious level deal with these problems? Are SWToR raids just less complicated and more forgiving and allow for people to waste time staring at bars instead of watching the fight?

 

Thanks

[DakoHawk]

No, you actually have to try.......sorry.

[ZaraGrace]

Wow.. a troll predictable.

 

How is using a mod to tell you which debuff on the target is yours "not trying"? I am pretty sure that developers don't really design encounters around staring at your bars nonstop to see what has proc'd or what ability is off CD.

 

Your response was just stupid. and my questions have nothing to do with "not trying" - you're obviously not someone that has ever raided in a game on any kind of hard core level.

[DakoHawk]

Calm down, i'm just letting you know that if you are incapable of doing multiple things at once you wont like this game. I really am sorry but you should go back to wow or something that has dumbed down raiding to the same level as it. They probably aren't going to put in mods ever. Your'e gonna have to deal with that.

 

Edit: I would love it if more people played the game, but these aren't the raids you're looking for.

Edited April 8, 2013 by DakoHawk

[gunte]

Wow.. a troll predictable.

 

How is using a mod to tell you which debuff on the target is yours "not trying"? I am pretty sure that developers don't really design encounters around staring at your bars nonstop to see what has proc'd or what ability is off CD.

 

Your response was just stupid. and my questions have nothing to do with "not trying" - you're obviously not someone that has ever raided in a game on any kind of hard core level.

 

I'ts called learning your class knowing when abilities comes off cd, when to reapply debuffs and dots etc and as for procs i notice when they pop up on my bars while watching the fight. It's a bit like the huge red text that pops up when certain mechanics begin. You don't look at it but you instantly notice it not to mention the fact that most (all?) procs have an animation and/or sound to let you know as well.

As far as debuffs on targets go i understand where you're coming from they can be a bit subtle but in pretty much all cases you can tell by the animations in the fight (That you're paying attention to anyway so what's the problem there?)

 

In short if you need addons and mods to play the game efficiently, this is not the game for you.

[Synnister_]

You actually have to pay attention to your character in this game. As for debuffs, they show up in the operation window so you can see it there. You should know the fight before hand by watching videos and doing research on the fight before you get there. Most walk thrus explain debuffs that need to be cleansed. Fortunately, BW has not opened this game to mods therefore they don't write their encounters to require one.

[ZaraGrace]

My guess is that neither of you have ever raided at high levels. I was ranked as one of the best hunters (25 man) in the world. Small things like knowing which debuff on a target is yours, and when an ability proc affect DPS - if you waste even a second in reapplying something or not noticing that an ability proc'd - you are losing DPS.

 

While I agree that in general WOW raiding has been dumbed down, raiding at the level I was playing was not nerfed or dumbed down. I'm very familiar with difficult raid fights that involve heavy movement, high DPS, and situational awareness.

 

I am asking the people that raid at high levels how you deal with that. I assume that hard mode raiding in SWToR involves moving out of bad stuff, interrupting the boss, stacking up at certain parts, spreading out on others - all things that require you to watch your screen and not your bars.

 

Like I said in my original post - maybe raiding in SW is just a lot less involved than I am used to in Wow and therefore easier to spend time just looking at your bars.

 

As far as listening to a sound or noticing a character animation - that too is crap - if you're in a group with 16 people you can't hear your individual sounds and you're probably zoomed out far enough you cant really notice your animations - especially mixed in with so many other people.

 

I get that the two of you want to feel superior with your "if you can't play without mods this isnt the game for you" nonsense, but I feel that my questions are legitimate. High level raiders must have a way to deal with these issues. I would like to know what they are - because you certainly can't hear or see your individual character in the middle of a boss fight with all kinds of noise and 15 other players around.

[TralyanSavo]

Never played WoW so can't help you with WoW comparisons but I'm kinda glad that SWTOR doesnt have these things that you're describing.

 

That said, most procs in this game seem to have a visual affect when they trigger. For instance, Harnessed Shadows on my Shadow envelops my character in shadows. For debuffs that need cleansing, that is why you have voice for raids. "Ryaffil needs a cleanse," is how that will usually go.

 

For knowing when your cooldowns are up, I don't know what to tell you. If you need a mod for that, that seems really, really silly to me. Go into your game preferences and change the cooldown style to display the time until they are up.

 

But a lot of this is just getting familiar with your class and knowing your rotation. You also don't need to be staring at your feet a whole lot since typically, you want to minimize movement when you can and knowing the fights and when you will have to move is important.

[DonkeyGobbler]

Never played WoW, but I feel some of your pain. When healing in Ops I've missed debuffs on players because the images are tiny. Fortunately, the debuff sizes can be altered in tomorrow's 2.0 patch.

[ZaraGrace]

I give up with you guys - I don't know if you're intentionally missing my point or just being defensive about SW raiding or what...but staring at my bars to see if something has proc'd or to check how long before a CD is ready doesn't seem very fun. Nor does it seem very practical to try to stare at my character from a zoomed out position to try to figure out what kind of animation is happening.

 

It makes me crazy to not be able to tell which debuff on a target is mine. It makes me crazy that the debuff (and buffs) show up so small. Would it be so bad to be able to filter buffs and debuffs and change their size?

 

Don't tell me to read up on a fight ahead of time - I have raided at the highest levels in WoW - I know all about playing on the PTR and reading up on fights. That isnt the issue. Like I said - maybe SWToR raids are much simpler in mechanics and therefore requires less attention to the general raid environment.

 

I really would like to hear from people that are in hard core raiding guilds though.

 

PS - @donkey - good to know about the sizing of buffs and debuffs - that will help

Edited April 8, 2013 by ZaraGrace

[Nibbon]

@Zara

 

I raided at a high level in EQ and WoW and now in SWTOR so hopefully you can take my opinion as valid.

 

If you compare WoW and SWTOR at face value without any mods - they would play very similarly. You do indeed have to move out of circles, interrupt, cluster, spread out, and all that good stuff in both games. The difference is, with the mods now in WoW, your attention is being redistributed from your buff/debuff bar (and the target buff/debuff or cast bar) and instead is being displayed in the middle of your screen.

 

There are actually mods that can assist you with reapplying dots in SWTOR: one is called Tor assist, and you can find that here: http://www.froyosoft.com/torassistant.php

 

When set up correctly it will play different unique sounds (or voice recordings) when you need to reapply a dot, or something of that nature. Currently, there is nothing for when you have to cleanse a dot - but if you are playing a sniper, that isn't your job. However, as others have indicated, you should know when someone needs to cleanse a debuff off of you (a fight like writhing horror) and call it over your voice chat. There are enough visuals in this game that you don't really need to look at your debuff bar to see when these things are applied (in the case of writhing horror, its a big giant green slime hitting you). Otherwise, there are plenty of text indications (like a WoW mod) that go across your screen to tell you when to do some sort of mechanic -- like tanks entering defensive mode ... Some guilds raid leaders will call out mechanics for everyone (I do) so that you can focus more on your DPS and less on the target's health bar.

 

Obviously, with a mastery of your class you will pay less and less attention to your rotation - because it will be fairly ingrained in you - and you should just naturally know when to replace dots. I, for the most part, do not really stare at buff and debuff bars anymore.

 

I'd also like to mention, that when comparing WoW and SWTOR, I'd say WoW is "simpler" because of the mods.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Nibbon

[ZaraGrace]

I'd also like to mention, that when comparing WoW and SWTOR, I'd say WoW is "simpler" because of the mods.

 

Thanks for the help.

 

OK so you're saying that hard mode WOW fights vs HM SWToR fights - SWToR comes out as being more difficult all things considered? Any idea how many wipes the top guilds do on HM fights before they get it down? The more difficult WoW hard mode fights can take hundreds of wipes before top guilds get them down. Would love it if SWToR raiding was that difficult.

[mikebevo]

First I have never raid in WOW or any other MMO, but I have raided TOR at the highest levels to date.

How do you know when an ability has proc'd beyond staring at your bars?

Few different ways all working together, one you can glance at them, not stare, second many make a sound, third knowing your class, if you know what a ability produces what proc, then you know if it is up or not from your own actions.

 

Same goes for cooldowns - how do I know when they are active - just stare at my bars again to see when they end?

This one is extremely easy on my dps toons. I know my rotation/priorities so I just know when they are up. The other thing I have done is edit my UI so they numerically count down. On my healers I have edited my UI so that the heals are in the middle of the screen, so I don’t have to take my eyes off the fight to see cooldowns while keep an eye on the fight and the red warnings.

 

My "main" is a sniper, but I have a healer too - how do I know when someone has a debuff that needs to be removed - you have to just cycle through everyone in the group and then mouseover their debuff?

No reason to mouseover debuffs, you should know what you are looking for before the fight, so you should know what is cleansable and what is not. So if you see the debuff cleanse it or communicate with them to move and then either cleanse it or if they have the ability they should cleanse it. Some debuffs have to be remove out of the way or they cause an AoE. It is usually easy if someone has a debuff, they will be taking damage.

 

How do I know which debuff on the target is mine - if there are 2 of the same class in the group - how do you tell the difference?

Who cares, it is there is all that matters. Anything important to you will be on your bar.

 

I am curious how people that raid on a serious level deal with these problems? Are SWToR raids just less complicated and more forgiving and allow for people to waste time staring at bars instead of watching the fight?

Have no clue about other games, but go into NIM EC or HM TfB and tell me these fight are not complicated. As for watching the fight, roll dps. Healer’s job is healing so it is largely staring at health bars, but still watching out for AoE and knowing what is going on in the fight and what phase the fight is on. So to me good communication is imperative to successful raids. Edited April 8, 2013 by mikebevo

[Nibbon]

Thanks for the help.

 

OK so you're saying that hard mode WOW fights vs HM SWToR fights - SWToR comes out as being more difficult all things considered? Any idea how many wipes the top guilds do on HM fights before they get it down? The more difficult WoW hard mode fights can take hundreds of wipes before top guilds get them down. Would love it if SWToR raiding was that difficult.

 

Not necessarily what I meant. What I meant was, given that you have to split your attention a bit more, WoW having mods makes it easier, since you are only focusing on your movements or instructions - while in SWTOR you often have to figure out the instructions for yourself since they aren't part of a mod system.

 

Next let me say that SWTOR has three difficulty modes: Story, Hard, and Nightmare. Story is fairly simple and meant for any pickup group to be able to kill (especially come 2.0 when they are all added to the groupfinder). Hard is for any organized group to be able to eventually progress and beat - and Nightmare is more geared toward the high end guilds, to the point where only the elite guilds can beat all the encounters.

 

While there is a Nightmare EV and KP (the first two operations) these do not fall into the last grouping, since this design only came about after Explosive Conflict (the third operation) was released. So in terms of "hard core" raids, there is only Nightmare EC. When 2.0 is released tomorrow, that won't actually change - it will be a month or two from 2.0 being released when we see Nightmare TFB and Nightmare S+V (the fourth and fifth operations). Then we will see the same difficulty of raids when compared to Nightmare EC.

 

So HM can usually be beaten in a couple of days - Nightmare usually takes a few weeks. For an example, look at the progression spreadsheet for Nightmare EC:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgCWcFAbOaZwdHNYaTU0NnN1RXJ6dnBWc2NyeW1fQ3c#gid=7

 

Notice the difference in the first kill date (Which was the first week for most of these guilds of the release) to the second kill (took some guilds a few weeks) to the last kill (took most guilds a couple of months).

 

The last thing I'd note is that 8 usually progresses faster, simply because it is easier to find 8 competent people than it is to find 16 competent people (not that everything is perfectly balanced, but that is a large reason why).

 

Edit: I'd also like to add that HM TFB was a bit harder than the previous HMs (Though HM tank was a pain, as well). So the difficulty in the regular HMs are getting a little higher.

 

Double edit: As for debuffing - besides people communicating (which is another reason I like this game without mods) - you should just look for the person whose health is dropping most rapidly, they normally need a cleanse. When I heal, I just shoot first (cleanse) and ask questions later.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Nibbon

[Pantaro]

I give up with you guys - I don't know if you're intentionally missing my point or just being defensive about SW raiding or what...but staring at my bars to see if something has proc'd or to check how long before a CD is ready doesn't seem very fun. Nor does it seem very practical to try to stare at my character from a zoomed out position to try to figure out what kind of animation is happening.

 

It makes me crazy to not be able to tell which debuff on a target is mine. It makes me crazy that the debuff (and buffs) show up so small. Would it be so bad to be able to filter buffs and debuffs and change their size?

 

Don't tell me to read up on a fight ahead of time - I have raided at the highest levels in WoW - I know all about playing on the PTR and reading up on fights. That isnt the issue. Like I said - maybe SWToR raids are much simpler in mechanics and therefore requires less attention to the general raid environment.

 

I really would like to hear from people that are in hard core raiding guilds though.

 

PS - @donkey - good to know about the sizing of buffs and debuffs - that will help

 

hell i didnt even know about the sizing of buffs change as a healer that just joined a progression group THANK GOD! lol

[ZaraGrace]

 

No reason to mouseover debuffs, you should know what you are looking for before the fight, so you should know what is cleansable and what is not. So if you see the debuff cleanse it or communicate with them to move and then either cleanse it or if they have the ability they should cleanse it. Some debuffs have to be remove out of the way or they cause an AoE. It is usually easy if someone has a debuff, they will be taking damage.

 

Who cares, it is there is all that matters. Anything important to you will be on your bar.

 

 

Thanks to the last couple posters for the good information. Sounds like I just will have to get used to a different way of playing.

 

Regarding knowing which debuff is mine on the target...it does matter. Snipers have a dot they use that stays on the target longer than the CD of the ability. So just because the dot ability is off CD doesn't mean I should use it because the original dot is still counting down on the target...so I need to know which debuff is mine so I know when to reapply.

 

EDIT:

 

wow I am shocked that there are only 16 guilds that are doing the hardest levels of content.

Edited April 8, 2013 by ZaraGrace

[Nibbon]

Thanks to the last couple posters for the good information. Sounds like I just will have to get used to a different way of playing.

 

Regarding knowing which debuff is mine on the target...it does matter. Snipers have a dot they use that stays on the target longer than the CD of the ability. So just because the dot ability is off CD doesn't mean I should use it because the original dot is still counting down on the target...so I need to know which debuff is mine so I know when to reapply.

 

Yeah, I'll reiterate, use Tor Assist for that. You can set a timer for when you press a button (so say that dot is 4 on your number pad) so that when you hit "4" it will begin a countdown and play a sound when you should refresh

 

edit: There aren't necessarily only 16 guilds doing that level of content - there are a ton ton more 8 man guilds because the difficulty vs. reward is a bit lower in 8 than it is in 16 (note when I say difficulty, I mean difficulty in getting 16 people together vs 8 as well as level of content). Come 2.0 I expect there to be a jump in 16 man raiding guilds because of the jump in player population as well as guilds' desire to kill Dreadtooth leading to a recruitment drive for many (or so I've observed).

Edited April 8, 2013 by Nibbon

[ZaraGrace]

Yeah great suggestion - I'll do that.

[Riplin]

I give up with you guys - I don't know if you're intentionally missing my point or just being defensive about SW raiding or what...but staring at my bars to see if something has proc'd or to check how long before a CD is ready doesn't seem very fun. Nor does it seem very practical to try to stare at my character from a zoomed out position to try to figure out what kind of animation is happening.

 

It makes me crazy to not be able to tell which debuff on a target is mine. It makes me crazy that the debuff (and buffs) show up so small. Would it be so bad to be able to filter buffs and debuffs and change their size?

 

Don't tell me to read up on a fight ahead of time - I have raided at the highest levels in WoW - I know all about playing on the PTR and reading up on fights. That isnt the issue. Like I said - maybe SWToR raids are much simpler in mechanics and therefore requires less attention to the general raid environment.

 

I really would like to hear from people that are in hard core raiding guilds though.

 

PS - @donkey - good to know about the sizing of buffs and debuffs - that will help

 

It's not that we're missing the point. Many have told you what is needed to raid at high levels in SWTOR. But you are refusing to listen. It's not just knowing the fights, you need to perfect your rotation, know your class/spec inside and out to know when certain things come off cool down, with out having to stare at your bars.

 

Just as an example. On my gunslinger, I do not ever have to look at debuff/buff on the boss because I know exactly when they expire based on how many times I've used certain abilities. Lets say after I have used a certain ability twice I know that my dots need to be refreshed...etc. I personally have spent countless hours on the training dummy to reach the point to do this as with anyone that raids on high level has done. We've taken the time to learn the game instead of relying on mods as a crutch to tell me when to do something.

 

As you said that you guess most have not raided at high level, I would wager a guess that a vast majority of the "high level" raiders from wow would be completely lost with out their mods to do most of the work for them. And this imo was proven with having to cancel so many raids in wow after a patch because of mods not being updated yet.

 

As for debuffs that need to be cleansed, having 2 healers myself I can feel your pain there, but the responsibility doesn't fall entirely all on the healer to see the debuffs, the person that has it needs to paying attention enough to call out that they need a cleanse.

 

On the procs issues, it's not that hard to know which abilities you use that have a proc and right after using them you take the half a second it takes to glance at your bar and see the little icon the appears when you have proc'd sometime. This also falls under knowing your class inside and out. Once you know your class like that you won't need to look at your bars cause you know the sounds/animation at that point.

 

I am not meaning this to be a troll post or to put you down as a raider. It's that mods are not needed because BW is not designing the fights around mods. All it takes is a little effort on your end to learn the game/class mechanics. That is what separates a casual from high end raider.

[DonkeyGobbler]

Regarding knowing which debuff is mine on the target...it does matter. Snipers have a dot they use that stays on the target longer than the CD of the ability. So just because the dot ability is off CD doesn't mean I should use it because the original dot is still counting down on the target...so I need to know which debuff is mine so I know when to reapply..

 

Agreed. I've DPS'd in Ops where I've checked out the bosses debuffs and there are several of the same one I've applied, all counting down at different times. Just because I can reapply mine, it doesn't mean I should. It's often a waste of DPS, time and resource.

 

Edit: I would, however, never claim to be a hardcore raider!

Edited April 8, 2013 by DonkeyGobbler

[ZaraGrace]

Just as an example. On my gunslinger, I do not ever have to look at debuff/buff on the boss because I know exactly when they expire based on how many times I've used certain abilities. Lets say after I have used a certain ability twice I know that my dots need to be refreshed...etc. I personally have spent countless hours on the training dummy to reach the point to do this as with anyone that raids on high level has done. We've taken the time to learn the game instead of relying on mods as a crutch to tell me when to do something.

.

 

If this is true, than high level SWToR raiding must have significantly less movement and special mechanics than WoW raiding. I can play my hunter in my sleep -as far as the rotation goes. However, in WoW....raids require almost constant moving, grouping up, spreading out, avoiding something bad on the ground, etc. There's no way you can keep track of your rotation with that kind of movement. If all I have to do in SWToR is drop down to cover and shoot stuff... that I can do... although I think it would get boring pretty fast.

 

and LOL at "mods are a crutch" - that's what I'm talking about - defending SWToR to the bitter end I guess. Do something like 25 man HM Ragnaros in Firelands where it takes 400+ pulls to kill (and rank as the 40th US guild to get it) and tell me how much of a crutch mods are - there are many fights in WoW that would simply be unplayable with out mods. You dont need to look down your nose at WoW raiders because they have mods. Based off what I'm reading here - the end games of both raids are really quite different.

[Nibbon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pHZeRqONICQ

 

Watch this video - this will give you an idea of the movement and mechanics of one of the harder fights currently in the game.

[axka]

Well "Raiding" in SWTOR compared to WoW is really simple. It's sort of the old school raiding. Mechanic wise, the fights are really simple. All you have to do is know how to play your class.

 

Having played both games, I can tell that IMHO, Raiding at high end-game level in WoW is alot more challenging and competative than SWTOR, however I do prefer raiding in SWTOR because:

 

1. Simple fights. It's not 10 different mechanics you have to keep track on. More like 2-3 which makes the need for mods to keep track on it for you a lot less. However, if you mess up at one of the 2-3 mechanics that could mean the end of the group. (Especially aiming at Kephess NiM now).

 

2. Allows you to be creative. There are many different paths to downing a boss rather to just follow a main guide which everyone seem to be doing.

 

3. It challenges you on how well you play your class. To raid on the highest end-game level in SWTOR requires of you that you have good knowledge of your class, rotation, cooldowns and defensive play. Especially if you're playing a tank or healer. What I love the most is the energy management. Especially healing wise. It can really challenge you at some fights.

 

4. The community. I love raiding in SWTOR with fellow Star Wars fans. You may read alot of stories about people being "Kicked out of FPs, Hardmodes and Storymode Operations". Personally, that has never happend to me, but in my experience that happends in every game. The majority of SWTOR players are mature and we have alot of laughs and fun together while raiding.

 

But that's just me. I won't lie and say SWTOR raiding is hard, because it's not. But I don't think raiding should be hard. I think raiding should be fun and challenge you in many different ways. The main point of Raiding is to challenge you at Team Work, working together against a mighty oponent, which SWTOR does.

 

My advise, give it a try. You may like it, you may not. But you never know for sure, without having tried it out yourself.

[JouerTue]

There are hot more Ryan 2-3 debuffs that need to be cleansed in ops or li, then they are applied to tanks or random players and with an animation._ you reapply your buffs-debuffs regularly through your rotation and if you read your abilities description you'll find that everything is pretty intuitive

[mikebevo]

EDIT:

 

wow I am shocked that there are only 16 guilds that are doing the hardest levels of content.

Don't be...more are doing the hardest level content than that.