[spoiler] Revan vs. Thrall (A TY to bioware)

[Arandmoor]

First, I would like to point out that I would rather write a compare and contrast paper than run quests on Taris. Can you please do something to make that planet not suck?

 

Anyway...

 

SPOILER ALERT! If you haven't run The Foundry empire-side, and don't want it ruined for you press the back button on your browser right now. Go on. I won't be offended (oh, and before you go "but The Foundry is so old! lol! Yeah. But there are always going to be new players that haven't seen it yet because of F2P, and it's honestly an awesome part of the overall KOTOR lore).

 

Okay then...

 

Revan vs. Thrall.

 

Both are characters in video games. The two are very similar in terms of their origins as major characters in single player games, and have similar potential to be major story drivers in their respective MMOs. While Blizzard uses Thrall to shove story through, Bioware's chose to retire the character of Revan. This choice will allow Revan to maintain his respectful position in Starwars lore, while continually leveraging the character of Thrall has, instead, turned him into a toxic asset.

 

Both were main characters in their own single player games. Thrall is a major character under the player's control in Warcraft 3, and had his own adventure game that, unfortunately, was canceled during development. Compared to Revan who was the main character of the first Knights of the Old Republic game.

 

Both characters are now major NPCs in AAA MMOs. Thrall was previously the leader of the Hord faction in World of Warcraft, but was removed from his leadership position and made a "world NPC that belongs to both factions" (personal note: that idea failed. Hard. Thrall has way too much baggage to be anything other than a Horde NPC. Not to mention he's an Orc). Revan, OTOH, was a Republic hero who saved everyone in the republic in true Star Wars Heroic Fashion at the conclusion of KOTOR.

 

Thrall is a major driver of story in the Warcraft universe. You can't swing a dead cat Horde-side and not hit something that references how important thrall is, or is related to something that thrall did or stands for.

 

Revan, on the other hand, had a much larger single-player presence than Thrall did (Thrall's single player game was canceled during development leaving him with just WC3), but does not drive most of the story in The Old Republic.

 

Thrall is a problematic character because of his ties to one faction over the other. While story is not nearly as front-and-center in WoW as it is in TOR, it's still pervasive enough that you can't help but see at least some of it. When Cataclysm was focused on the character of Thrall, it gave notice of one faction over the other. In a two faction game this creates an illusion of imbalance that, even if not there mechanically or mathematically, will persist through the morale of the faction that "chose wrong". While not having any kind of concrete impact on the game in the mechanical sense, it can and does create the feeling for people who are fans of said other faction that they are, in a way, unwelcome. Especially when they do not receive similar treatment (Varian gets air-time but nowhere near as much as Thrall. Whenever Varian does anything his flaws are emphasized; Meanwhile Thrall doesn't have any...etc)

 

NOTE: A feeling of being "unwelcome" was the straw that caused me to finally quit WoW and not look back. So don't say it doesn't happen.

 

Revan could have had the exact same impact on The Old Republic. With the history of the character combined with the previous emotional attachment created by a game that let you customize your character and make "your Revan" ,rather than using the one that was presented to you by Bioware (even though the TOR Revan is "the official Revan", the name will still carry over some of that emotional investment) the effectiveness of the character as a blunt object would have been even greater than that of Thrall. This kind of character being used as a means to drive story must be tempting, because they make story so easy. Just have the driver character do something and the galaxy must follow (see Cataclysm, especially the last two patches before Pandaria). Unfortunately, this kind of practice leads to story being forced on players rather than having players participate, and overall makes for a weaker story.

 

I like to imagine how Cataclysm would have gone had thrall been killed, instead of shattered, leaving the fate of the world up to the players.

 

Instead of keeping Revan around for a rainy day, he meets his end in The Foundry. The Revan fight is magically delicious with multiple mechanics and stages, topped off with a death speech!!! (One of the better ones I've heard, I might add.)

 

Thank You Bioware for giving us the best end to a main character ever in a game, and not beating us over the heads with him.

[chuixupu]

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Revan returned in some way..

[Aelther]

I HATE how MMOs always kill off major characters. Can't stand it. Arthas should have never been killed off in stupid WoW and Revan should have never been killed off by damn imps. They better bring him back some way... because now it seems playing KOTOR, reading Revan's novel and rescuing him from stasis all have been for nothing.

 

If they really wanted to kill him off they could have granted him a natural death by old age and build him a giant and cool tomb, which players could explore and maybe meet Revan's force ghost, but what they did in Foundry was just terrible...

 

 

Now I kinda wish Vitiate hadn't prevented Scourge from finishing off Revan. Still would have been a better end than Foundry.

 

Edited March 29, 2013 by Aelther

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Revan returned in some way..

 

That's my suspicion as well. Especially since I've heard it was changed to where in beta his body laid there, now it disappears in a blast of light in live.

 

 

I also suspect the same to be true about Darth Malgus since you have to go through the extra effort of pushing him off instead of convectional death.

 

Edited March 29, 2013 by Arlon_Nabarlly

[Aelther]

 

I also suspect the same to be true about Darth Malgus since you have to go through the extra effort of pushing him off instead of convectional death.

 

 

If you play it right, you can kill him without pushing him off.

 

[MeatTender]

I'd love to see both Revan AND Malgus return! Kinda makes me feel bad looking at my Malgus statue and knowing hes no more. I want to see them both back even if it is kinda cheesy.

[LanceCorporalDan]

I HATE how MMOs always kill off major characters. Can't stand it. Arthas should have never been killed off in stupid WoW and Revan should have never been killed off by damn imps. They better bring him back some way... because now it seems playing KOTOR, reading Revan's novel and rescuing him from stasis all have been for nothing.

 

If they really wanted to kill him off they could have granted him a natural death by old age and build him a giant and cool tomb, which players could explore and maybe meet Revan's force ghost, but what they did in Foundry was just terrible...

 

 

Now I kinda wish Vitiate hadn't prevented Scourge from finishing off Revan. Still would have been a better end than Foundry.

Well imps lost malgus would've been nice if both stayed

[Aelther]

Well imps lost malgus would've been nice if both stayed

 

Well losing Malgus was also pretty stupid. He was one of the most reasonable (and dare I say a bit light side) sith in high position of the empire. I bet if imperials knew the true intentions of the emperor they all would have joined Malgus' new empire in an instant.

 

But still he was nowhere near as popular as Revan, so sucks to lose both but sucks to lose Revan even more (at least to me).

Edited March 29, 2013 by Aelther

[Arandmoor]

I'd rather they retire Revan than see him turn into another Thrall. While they can bring him back as a force ghost, he can't do the same kind of damage overuse of Thrall has done to WoW.

[Aelther]

I'd rather they retire Revan than see him turn into another Thrall. While they can bring him back as a force ghost, he can't do the same kind of damage overuse of Thrall has done to WoW.

 

That's why I said they should have let him die as old man in piece, he deserved it more than anyone.

If they really wanted to kill him off they could have granted him a natural death by old age and build him a giant and cool tomb, which players could explore and maybe meet Revan's force ghost, but what they did in Foundry was just terrible...

[Preventer-Blaze]

That's why I said they should have let him die as old man in piece, he deserved it more than anyone.

 

Yeah, but I have a bad feeling about they doing something like Arthas.

Anyway, good topic, makes so much sense imo.

[Arandmoor]

Bumping 'cause.

[Raideag]

Well more than likely Malgus didn't die either. Basically he fell down a shaft according to the flashpoint, which could easily have the same thing happen like Luke did in The Empire Strikes Back at the end. Falls down a deep shaft sucked into one of the disposal shoots.

 

Edited March 30, 2013 by Raideag

[lokdron]

Malgus is dead his writer said so he is not coming back.

[Quething]

He may not be Thrall but there's still way the hell too much Revan in this game. Revan is a customizable character in a BioWare RPG. It's not about having "a" Revan or "the" Revan. The point of the game was to live the story of my Revan and your Revan. Maybe yours was a Grey Jedi black dude who lived a celibate life and fell to the Dark Side because he wanted to help too much to be careful and abandoned the Jedi Order after learning they'd mindwiped him out of fear. Maybe mine was a Dark Side Asian woman who loved Juhani and fell because she was ambitious and prideful and fell once again once she learned of the Council's betrayal of her. Maybe somebody else's was the generic LS white dude who seduced Bastila with a bunch of douchey flirt lines and welcomed the Jedi Council's mindwipe as a form of redemption who's currently canon. The point is, they were all personal; each story belonged to the person who played it, each Revan was unique, and that specific Revan was the one that was important to the player.

 

I can live with the book putting down a bunch of canon because it's pretty damn easy to ignore. Just don't read it. It's a whole different medium, it doesn't have to affect anything. But in this game? This game that is the closest we'll ever have to KotOR III? Revan should have been exactly what he is in that quest on Korriban: a mythic figure from the past who left behind interesting relics, whose motives and history and even gender are unknown to the NPCs who discuss it. I like the idea of exploring a tomb, even seeing a Force Ghost all KotOR II style with no voice or defining features. But a name, a face, a particular personality and story and a damn boss fight... it's a real betrayal of KotOR I and the wRPG ideal that BioWare once cleaved to.

[Aelther]

I can live with the book putting down a bunch of canon because it's pretty damn easy to ignore. Just don't read it. It's a whole different medium, it doesn't have to affect anything. But in this game? This game that is the closest we'll ever have to KotOR III? Revan should have been exactly what he is in that quest on Korriban: a mythic figure from the past who left behind interesting relics, whose motives and history and even gender are unknown to the NPCs who discuss it. I like the idea of exploring a tomb, even seeing a Force Ghost all KotOR II style with no voice or defining features. But a name, a face, a particular personality and story and a damn boss fight... it's a real betrayal of KotOR I and the wRPG ideal that BioWare once cleaved to.

 

Well in my opinion the book was great, it connected Kotor, Kotor 2 and SWTOR very well, it even included tiny details such as how did Revan find his old mask again, which he lost when jedi captured him. Though I have to admit that a lot of my affection for the book may come from the fact that my KOTOR Revan was pretty much exactly like the one from that book, even the face is similar. The only thing that bothers me in SWTOR is how they ended his life in SWTOR. But as Drew Karpyshyn says on his site:

"I should also warn you that Revan is a dark and even tragic novel – it’s not all rainbows and lollipops. This also angered some of the KOTOR fans, especially those who feel a strong attachment to Revan and the Exile. I knew that was a risk going in, but I felt it was necessary to provide some closure on the parts of Revan’s tale left dangling from the KOTOR series. Inevitably, someone was going to write this story, and I figured I was the best person for the job."

 

Someone would have canonised Revan's story in some way or another sooner or later, so better it be the guy who created him in the first place.

Also it's not the first game which ruins previous games multiple endings and various choices by canonising one of them and it certainly won't be the last, unless every single game starts importing saves, like mass effect did.

 

Revan should have been exactly what he is in that quest on Korriban: a mythic figure from the past who left behind interesting relics, whose motives and history and even gender are unknown to the NPCs who discuss it.

 

Also that was in Dromund Kaas, not Korriban. And if Dromund Kaas was the only way to see any relics of Revan, it would upset a lot of Republic players greatly.

Edited March 30, 2013 by Aelther