Powertech players it is time to stand up and be heard!

[LovarBoy]

No. DoTs certainly have a place in PvP and are one of the most effective ways to bring down a tank/healer combo. The problem is, most DPS players think they should be able to destroy anything on the field, and that's simply not the case.

 

A DoT spec going up against a class that can cleanse DoTs is obviously a bad choice when you read this sentence. However, while playing, I see that most players don't choose their targets, they just start swinging at whatever is closest to them. Mara/Sent and Agent/Smuggler both have high DPS specs that rely almost 100% on DoT damage and they are able to pull huge numbers. There's no reason why Pyros can't do the same, absolutely none at all.

 

The class has changed. Adapt or re-roll. That's all there is to it.

 

 

They have DoT-damage and potential, high burst. We got... no real hard hitting ability. ~ 6k Railshot & ~ 6k Rocket Punch are a bit... lame in comparison. Especially Operatives DoT-spec lethality has got an extremely strong "burst" ability ( Cull ), Marauders get it as a 45 point talent. We get nothing near their potential burst skills.

 

The Marauder has got Vicious Throw and the new double saber throw - both very hard hitting, especially the first - and that next to their other burst abilities. If PT's get some execute skills: ok. But we have none.

Edited April 20, 2013 by LovarBoy

[Aetrus]

A DoT spec going up against a class that can cleanse DoTs is obviously a bad choice when you read this sentence. However, while playing, I see that most players don't choose their targets, they just start swinging at whatever is closest to them. Mara/Sent and Agent/Smuggler both have high DPS specs that rely almost 100% on DoT damage and they are able to pull huge numbers. There's no reason why Pyros can't do the same, absolutely none at all.

 

PTs can still pull huge numbers. But its all fluff. You don't actually kill anything against a good team. Its like Madness Sorcs in 1.7. They could put up big numbers, too. But it didn't matter, because you're not killing anything with it because you have zero burst. Burst is king in ranked. No one is going to let you chase their healer around for 45 seconds spamming Flame Burst on their ***.

Edited April 21, 2013 by AnusReaper

[TheronFett]

PTs can still pull huge numbers. But its all fluff. You don't actually kill anything against a good team. Its like Madness Sorcs in 1.7. They could put up big numbers, too. But it didn't matter, because you're not killing anything with it because you have zero burst. Burst is king in ranked. No one is going to let you chase their healer around for 45 seconds spamming Flame Burst on their ***.

 

I understand what you guys are saying, but I disagree. Burst isn't always the best thing in the world.

 

Powertech is now basically an AoE and DoT class. Not so much DoT stacking like an Annihilation Marauder, which can burn through a single target's health, but hitting multiple targets. Combined with AoE from other teammates, it adds up pretty quick. Control the other team's healer, enter your team's smash monkey, and you've just removed 4 enemies from the field at once. That's a significant role to play in PvP.

 

Would you rather kill off the other team one at at time, or take them all out at once? That style of play is supported on every single map and AoE and DoT is a big part of it.

Edited April 21, 2013 by TheronFett

[LovarBoy]

Sorry, but your scenario is Utopia.

 

You won't kill 4 enemies at once if there are healers, at least one healer.

 

AoE and DoT's melt down the HP from the other team, but they won't kill them if there are healers. And that's the problem, there are and will be always healers ( they are very strong right now, way too strong in PvP ).

[steave]

Your opinion has been rendered useless. Try again.

Don't really care what you think.

 

That is skewed anyway, since there is no way your raid was all full 69 gear or whatever... meaning you could have seemed "balanced" by having more gear than the guy to your left or right. Or their new gear they put on, wasn't optimised so it actually was a lateral grade chance instead of the perceived upgrade. I dont think comparison numbers in an ops is going to work until we get everyone on equal footing for gear.

 

But for PVP, you cannot argue at all, that they destroyed our burst... and gave us nothing for survivability. Sure we might be doing the same damage overall in a WZ, but it is not the damage that counts... it is the kills. You are just padding the meters at that point instead of suggesting that you are bringing REAL value to the team.

 

I am still holding off on passing judgement too harshly on PVE since it has not upset my raid roster position yet, and my awesome sauce playing and ability to not suck in an ops is winning out over potential dps loss in my raid group. But if we hit that wall on NiM mode again, where SOMEONE isn't pulling enough dps, I dont want it to be me that gets benched, because I chose to play this class. I SAW it happen on NiM EC... for every fight. Especially with Kephess, since you need just the right, well, everything to even consider bringing him down.

 

Of course it's skewed, but if anything I was on the low range of the gearing table, and the main point is the "but below 30% I pull ahead" - we where not that far behind on the PTS dummy parses, and the armor debuff plus effect of burnout in combination with an updated rotation is what brings us up in line with the others. I should also have mentioned that during our 16 man raid parsings, the other PT in our guild was right up there with me above everyone else.

 

I am indeed not arguing about PVP though. I never really liked my PT for PVP anyway, I like being able to stealth so I usually play my assassin or operative there.

[Natholomew]

But for PVP, you cannot argue at all, that they destroyed our burst... and gave us nothing for survivability. Sure we might be doing the same damage overall in a WZ, but it is not the damage that counts... it is the kills. You are just padding the meters at that point instead of suggesting that you are bringing REAL value to the team.

 

I am indeed not arguing about PVP though. I never really liked my PT for PVP anyway, I like being able to stealth so I usually play my assassin or operative there.

 

Again, what are you even doing talking here? You bring nothing of value to the conversation but pure distortion and fact-bending.

 

Try that our DPS spec is near the bottom in ability to kill anybody because the all of the power-hits have seen some of reduction in volume. We're doing roughly half the numbers that Sith Warriors are capable of, and 3/4 the damage of sith inquisitors' attacks.

 

Oh right, you don't care what I think,

probably because it helps you avoid the actual issue of a humongous nerf on PT PVP.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Natholomew

[steave]

This is about both PVE and PVP viability. I dispute the claim that we're not viable in PVE, but have no input on PVP. Those are 2 different issues.

 

Until you get back on topic instead of trying to call me out, I'll simply ignore any future posts from you.

Edited April 21, 2013 by steave

[Natholomew]

Try that our DPS spec is near the bottom in ability to kill anybody because the all of the power-hits have seen some of reduction in volume. We're doing roughly half the numbers that Sith Warriors are capable of, and 3/4 the damage of sith inquisitors' attacks.

 

Basically, the class being transformed into a dot-applying dps class means that shorter fights show less PT damage overall. Half the game's NPC lifespan-after-engagement end in under 10 seconds, the other half is somewhere closer to 24 seconds for heroics and under a minute for non-boss champions. So, the greater majority of fights don't allow for most lately applied dots to account for their full damage. This is MMO basics, front load damage is king in just-about every avenue of dps, pvp or pve.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Natholomew

[steave]

Basically, the class being transformed into a dot-applying dps class means that shorter fights show less PT damage overall. Half the game's NPC lifespan-after-engagement end in under 10 seconds, the other half is somewhere closer to 24 seconds for heroics and under a minute for non-boss champions. So, the greater majority of fights don't allow for most lately applied dots to account for their full damage. This is MMO basics, front load damage is king in just-about every avenue of dps, pvp or pve.

 

While that is true, I just don't see it as a problem for PVE - when dealing with those short fights, they'll die soon enough anyway, and it's often your AOE damage that decides how fast you progress, which we had boosted in 2.0 with the ability to apply our CGC dot with flame sweep. It may or may not take a little longer to clear trash, but trash don't have enrage timers, so it doesn't really matter.

 

The place it really matters in is the boss fights, and while the nerf to CGC was significant there, the changes to the tree means we can pick up everything we used to go into AP and ST for while still maintaining a full pyro tree, so with the cost reduction on IM, the talent to boost it and the dot on TD (in addition to having TD in the first place, it does more damage than your other attacks, it just wasn't worth the talents needed to get there) we still get enough extra damage to compensate - but you need to get below 30% for burnout before that becomes really noticeable, and you need to learn to work them in to the rotation the right way without wasting heat or PPAs. Personally, I alternate between a TD and IM every railshot and follow it up with a RpS to get heat down which ends up keeping TD on pretty much constant CD, and IM refreshed right around the time it needs to be while wasting no railshots. Obviously combine with cooldowns when appropriate, and it provides very good results.

As mentioned, our in-raid parsing suggest that PTs are just as viable as ever for PVE with that in mind, but until we get a second dummy set to constantly be at 25% hp (that would be pretty awesome actually...) where we can test execute range and until you include a armor debuff that you'll always have in raids it can't be shown on a dummy.

[ScytheEleven]

I stand by my previous statement that the initial kinetic damage to Thermal Detonator needs to be upped to it's previous amount to give burst back to the PVP crowd.

 

As for PVE, I understand that TD begins to work better in sub-30% burn phases. My parses on a dummy show about a 40-50 DPS loss from taking TD (2120 no TD, 2080 w/ TD). At no point IMO should taking the full tree build be less than a build where you opt out of the TOP TIER TALENT.

 

So the kinetic damage increase would make a full Pyro build do more damage at ALL TIMES than the no-TD build.

 

Make it happen BioWare.

[steave]

My gear is starting to settle in more now, so I did parse yesterday: http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=combat_2013-04-22_02_41_00_980034_-_Kopia.txt, 2530 truncated dps - I stopped the parse at a pretty bad time with half the duration still left on IM, so the original had 18 seconds at the end with no/only IM damage, so its unaltered form would be pretty misleading.

I have the set bonus and a 72 offhand, but other than that my gear is roughly 69 (a few 72s weighted up by a few 66s) with a 66 mainhand.

Edited April 22, 2013 by steave

[Aetrus]

I stand by my previous statement that the initial kinetic damage to Thermal Detonator needs to be upped to it's previous amount to give burst back to the PVP crowd.

 

As for PVE, I understand that TD begins to work better in sub-30% burn phases. My parses on a dummy show about a 40-50 DPS loss from taking TD (2120 no TD, 2080 w/ TD). At no point IMO should taking the full tree build be less than a build where you opt out of the TOP TIER TALENT.

 

So the kinetic damage increase would make a full Pyro build do more damage at ALL TIMES than the no-TD build.

 

Make it happen BioWare.

 

At this point I just want them to buff AP. The loss of Energy Rebounder plus the added burst of EVERY other DPS class means that even if Pyro got their burst back we'd still be worse than most because of our horrendous survivability.

[Senga_J]

Thought about it, and honestly I don't have any 55's other than my PT, which isn't fun to PvP with anymore. So I voted with my wallet until they fix it. See you guys around. Guess I'll go actually play a game for fun.

[Ajaxduo]

I was going to link into the 'Bounty Hunter and Trooper changes' thread because the Dev's were asking for feedback, majority of the replies were negatives about how Powertech's have lost there burst, Pyrotech is dead and the only decent build being hybrid. I posted a constructive reply and others responded but now it seems that the Dev's have removed the thread altogether lol. My advise is that seeing as we are all in this together is to build constructive replies rather than shouting to have the nerfs reverted. Reason is if the message is consistent they'll see that something is wrong and maybe do something about it. I love my Powertech but after 2.0 I feel more of a burden to my Ops group, seems like we're being pushed towards Shield Tech, Advanced Prototype is okay but that's about it.

[Shatterstar]

I wouldn't bother with Shieldtech either. It seems they nerfed the hell out of the dr of shielding and absorb ratings. Before 2.0 I ran at about 57/59% in them (wearing all 61's and 63's), after the expansion went live for all, I am down to 40/41%. So, I lost a third of my most important stats almost, heck I had better stats in the days of full Tio gear. The only place a PT tank shined was in their near-constant damage intake, without the spike damage Juggs and Sins suffered. Now that is gone. Extra dps for my tank is nice, but it isn't worth giving up my ability to take hits, that is my job, isn't it Biofail?

I have now shelved mine (except for crafting) until they fix that.

[nicusor]

Yep, that awkward moment when the players are more knowledgeable of their class than the developers.

 

 

So True ...... I WANT MY PYRO TO HIT LIKE BEFORE 2.0

[nomadh]

I miss a lot my Powertech, he's the reason i started playing Swtor. Being a fan of bounty hunters since i saw the SW movies and played SWG because of that. Perhaps like many others. And i play PVP...on my other chars which i find more usefull then my pt.

 

Now, dont you all say pt's are not usefull anymore, i can happily admit that at lvl 51 i make plenty of cash with armstech selling mk-9 kits:-) He's parked in Imperial fleet.

 

Well, thanks for reading this rant, i just woke up and dont want to write anything usefull. I'll go smash things away. YAY

[steave]

I wouldn't bother with Shieldtech either. It seems they nerfed the hell out of the dr of shielding and absorb ratings. Before 2.0 I ran at about 57/59% in them (wearing all 61's and 63's), after the expansion went live for all, I am down to 40/41%. So, I lost a third of my most important stats almost, heck I had better stats in the days of full Tio gear. The only place a PT tank shined was in their near-constant damage intake, without the spike damage Juggs and Sins suffered. Now that is gone. Extra dps for my tank is nice, but it isn't worth giving up my ability to take hits, that is my job, isn't it Biofail?

I have now shelved mine (except for crafting) until they fix that.

 

Ratings where nerfed, but shield now works VS force and tech attacks if they do energy or kinetic damage. Huge boost.

[Draakel]

I have put my powertech to bed. I figure my dps has dropped 40% with 2.0. Between railshot nerf, CGC reduction, and the total destruction of TD I am basically useless to a pvp group. In fact if there are more than 2 in the group, we will lose as we won't have the dps to take down healers fast enough.

 

So now to decide Smash Monkey or Sniper 9k crits.... hmmmm

[nicusor]

Maybe with full conqueror + full 28 augments it will be different:cool:

[Natholomew]

1. I doubt the Juggs who are throwing down 3 different 8k attacks, some getting over 10k, in the first 2 weeks of the expansion had full min/max gear.

2. When a pyro PT gets that full min/max gear, you think it will allow for our 3 prime attacks to start doing around double what they do currently?

[Shatterstar]

Ratings where nerfed, but shield now works VS force and tech attacks if they do energy or kinetic damage. Huge boost.

 

I am well aware of that, sir. Sorry, but I don't feel that addition warranted the rating nerf-bat we were just hit with. The fact remains, I take far more spike damage now, across the board, then I did before the patch. Doesn't matter, he is now parked on fleet, working his cybertech craft forever.

[steave]

I am well aware of that, sir. Sorry, but I don't feel that addition warranted the rating nerf-bat we were just hit with. The fact remains, I take far more spike damage now, across the board, then I did before the patch. Doesn't matter, he is now parked on fleet, working his cybertech craft forever.

 

As does the other 2 tank types. We are effectively back to tionese/columi, that is to be expected.

[Shatterstar]

As does the other 2 tank types. We are effectively back to tionese/columi, that is to be expected.

 

Actually, both the other tanks had a far more balanced approach to stats prior to 2.0 than we did. So while their ratings took a hit, it didn't hurt nearly as much as it did for a geared PT. I guess my big beef is that the PT tank no longer has a defined "we are best at this" role, like we once had. Tanksins handle ae best (with awesome utility), and Jugg's are solid single target threat. We were once the best at passive mitigation, taking a far more constant damage than the spikes the other two suffered. Now that is not really the case.

Now, I fully expected shield rating to take a hit with them enabling shields to be more effective on additional damage types. I just never expected them to crush both shield and absorb rating so badly. It just seems there is little reason to bring a pt tank over the other two now, and that we will see even more assassins running around than we already do.

[Taankjr]

I've read a lot of threads about how bad the PTs are and decided to try it.

 

He's about to ding lvl 36, and he seems to suck

 

The biggest hit i've seen was 5k from the railshot, whereas i got hits even for 9k (snipers, sins)

 

So what they did are, basically, more HP for all classes and damage for all, except of the PTs ?

 

How do they justify the fact that a 35-meters ranged class hits 2x harder than 4-meters melee? Plus we have only one ability, that does damage above 4k.

 

Edit: however, topping the dps charts is not that hard (running adv. prototype now)

 

It's all from the perspective of 30-54 bracket. I highly doubt that 55 bracket will change anything.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Taankjr