What happens when developers don't realize they're making a Star Wars game?

[AelixVII]

On another note, where is the bathroom, my player has been peeing in those potted plants for over a year..

My character tried the airlock to give it some use. Not recommended!

[Izorii]

It does seem a shame when they wrote the TOR story line they didn't think of giving good reasons to have to run back to the same area 3 or 4 times. However I suspect by the time most people get to lv 50 they have forgotten a lot of the time sinks that went into it.

[Puppypickles]

Perhaps someone should give the devs a nudge to try The Secret World. Handing in quests via a mobile phone call.. whatever next!

[Eillack]

New to MMO's?

[chuixupu]

I think they *could* rewrite some of the quests to have holocalls pop up more often. Funny thing is, even WoW has tremendously cut down the amount of time sinks of running around that they used to have in the game by having npcs communicate to you telepathically through magic while you're questing. It really does bug me when I have to do a lot of running through mobs just to share a small bit of information. That particular part of the quest chain on Taris was one of bad ones. I really hated that place because of it.

[HypnoticMeat]

Kubernetic, your argument that the contact doesn't accept holocalls for security purposes is understandable. And it can work to explain similar hoops the agent has to jump through for other questlines. But, I don't think it applies here, and my counterargument is equally effortless:

 

"But he does."

 

There are multiple instances throughout the Taris questline where that contact is perfectly happy to talk to you over the holophone. Furthermore, in this particular case, he doesn't provide any sort of confidential or delicate information, instead basically telling the agent to go where the bad guys are already heading and beat them to the [spoiler info redacted].

 

As for the operative/sniper choice - I'll admit that was a hard sell. For all the other classes I've played, one choice had always stood out as far more entertaining (in my opinion of course). I'd been playing a Marauder previous to this toon though, and the prospect of sniping enemies from super far away instead of wading into the middle of them was too enticing to pass up.

 

Finally, maybe I'm being dense here, but what does CTIA stand for? Google didn't come through for me on that one.

 

Okay, next up: lordspyder. You reference the opening scene of Episode 4 where the Rebel ship is captured by Darth Vader, however, if you think about that situation and compare it to the one I posted about, it becomes fairly obvious that they're fundamentally different.

 

So let's break it down. Let me preface this by admitting that I don't have a solid understanding of how holophones function or how the Stars Wars equivalent to the Internet (hereafter the SWInternet) functions. I'd go look it up on the Star Wars wiki, but that prospect frightens me because I imagine I'd spend my entire day reading all sorts of Star Wars fun facts. From various dialog provided in game, I know that neither technologies are providers of instantaneous communications (like the quantum entanglement doohickies from Mass Effect for example). So the messages have to be routed to their destination. That's enough information for my argument.

 

Okay, so Episode 4. In the hypothetical situation you provided, the Princess is holophoning/emailing Rebel HQ on Yavin 4. She's doing this inside a heavily damaged ship that's in the process of being dragged inside a much larger Star Destroyer. Assuming that the Imperials are complete imbeciles and haven't already destroyed the ship's communications array (I think that's actually one of the first shots of the movie - the Star Destroyer shoots a laser at their communications dish, blowing it up), its a safe bet they're jamming any communications the ship might try to make.

 

But let's go at this from a different angle by asking the question: would the Rebels even use SWInternet at all? This is a galaxy wide communications network - a resource of immeasurable strategic value. And this is a galaxy ruled by a totalitarian regime that doesn't see anything wrong with destroying an entire planet in an effort to ensure compliance. You can bet every dollar/credit/whatever that the Imperials have that under lock and key. And in a universe where droids and planet destroying spaceships and hyperdrives exist, the computational power available would be similarly monstrous - certainly enough to provide impressive monitoring capabilities on the routers that facilitate the network's functioning. Even more so for communications carrying large attachments - say for instance the complete plans to a giant murder station.

 

But let's dismiss that, and go from yet another angle. Accessing the SWInternet would provide a trivial means for the Empire to track down Rebel locations. Just follow the data requests. From the movies, we see that the Rebels enjoy making bases on remote, unsettled planets. Farming out data processing to droid intelligence, the Imperials could easily make a map of SWInternet requests filtered by star system and even planet. Cross reference that with known population centers - hmmm, it looks like some data requests are coming in from the *whatever system Yavin is in* system - Yavin 4 in particular. No registered settlements on Yavin 4, mark it for probe exploration. Now granted, when you account for smuggling, pirating, and the inevitability of incomplete records for a government that rules over a galaxy, there'd be a lot of false positives - a lot of probes being sent out to dead ends. But considering the lengths the Rebels go to in their efforts to remain undetected, it's likely they wouldn't take the risk.

 

Now, of course, all of these arguments are only assumptions and you could easily throw the old adage of what that makes of the two of us in my face. But I think they're rational. So let's consider the situation I described in the original post.

 

I'm on a planet that's largely been destroyed. There's no war raging. I'm not being hounded by agents of a galactic government. And I'm trying to communicate with someone who's on the same planet and within a short speeder ride's distance to me. Oh, and the topic of our conversation isn't galaxy shattering in importance. Oh, and the galaxy wide communications network is run by a third party desperately trying to maintain neutrality (not that SWInternet factors into this situation at all, but its worth mentioning).

 

So...that was a lot of rambling on my part.

 

One last thing. I've noticed many of the posts are along the lines of "well that's just how MMO's are", and as I pointed out in the original post, I understand that. To reiterate, the fact that I have to run back to talk to the contact isn't what bothers me. There are hundreds of quests where you have to do that - it's not fun, but it's shrug-worthy. What got me upset was that the quest just seemed a blatant example of the developers not even trying to leverage the Star Wars universe into the Star Wars game they were making. And as others pointed out, the game is rife with these kinds of moments.

 

I suppose its a situation of the straw that broke the camel's back.

[Altyrell]

I'm just going to say, I think this is totally in line with star wars movies. I think the original poster should change the thread title to "What happens when I forget I'm playing a Star Wars game"

For proof just look at the opening of Episode 4, Why couldn't Leia just holo-phone up General Akbar and say "Hey, so uh, yeah, Darth Vader is boarding my ship as we speak and I don't think we're going to get out of this one. But on the brighter side, I got those Death Star plans. I shooting them out as an e-mail attachment as we speak, so good luck and may the force be with you."

No, instead she has to record the message on a droid, send the droid to a desert planet to find an old decrepit ex-Jedi to hand deliver the message to the rebels on Yavin IV.

So tell me again how rough it was for you to run back a few minutes to talk to a contact.

 

Not to mention, just because this is a Star Wars MMO doesn't stop it from still being a MMO. Pretty much every MMO out there has you go to location X then back to location Z to talk to NPC Alpha again.

 

Also, if they had it to where you constantly have to talk NPC's using your Holodisc or w/e it is called people would probably start complaining about that.

 

Plus, by running back to the NPC, you will come across more things to kill, and oh look MORE XP GAIN.

[Rafaman]

Been on Taris many times now with several different toon including my agent, and... not a huge deal. I didn't find inconsistent or implausible. And tbh, traveling through is a snap once you know where your going.

[Arkerus]

First world problems.

 

 

Seriously. It's a game. Get over it.

[TheBabyEater]

Two words: "time sink"

[Lium]

Before I get started, fair warning: I'll be briefly discussing a class quest for the Imperial Agent on Taris. I'll try to make it spoiler free.

 

So, the class quest I'm going to use as an example is [The Cult of Ki Sazen]. Without getting into details, I had just finished beating up some alien punks and getting information from them about their boss. I called my contact using my holophone or whatever. They weren't impressed with the information I got, and wanted some more. I told them I could go talk to another contact of mine that I'd met when I'd first arrived on Taris. Good deal, let's give him a call.

 

...or not. No, it turns out I can't just call him up on my holophone. I have to run back through the tediously lengthy Rakghoul infested sewers, take a speeder back to the starter zone, ride out to where I first found the contact, wade through another tedious Rakghoul infested building, and finally talk with him face to face. And what happens? He gives me some information. It's not on a disc or a card and he doesn't give me any maguffin to complete my next task. Words come out of his mouth into my ear. That's it.

 

Let's break it down. Fighting my way back out of the sewers is fine. I'd have to do that anyways to get on with questing elsewhere, and by then its very likely that quick travel is off cooldown and begging to be used. But everything past that is, quite frankly, unacceptable. Why do I have to run all the way back to this guy when all that's necessary is a call from my holophone. It screams out as just a way to keep you in the game longer. I'm not saying that was the intent - I don't think the developers are sitting in their offices coming up with malicious ways to waste all our times - but when its this blatant, its hard not to get upset.

 

So I got upset. I got so upset that I exited out of the game and started looking for a way to contact Bioware to tell them how upset I was. And when I couldn't find an email address dedicated to taking crap from whiny customers, I decided to write a forum post and whine to the community. And here we are.

 

The time wasted on the long run and the grinding through trash mobs isn't the problem. I've played World of Warcraft for close to 5 years and I've been playing ToR since launch - those things aren't fun, but they're expected. It's hard to get upset by them when they're such a core piece of the experience. What makes me so upset is that the developers didn't seem to realize they were making a Star Wars game.

 

They knew they were making a game. Games have quests. Easy enough. What do you do in quests (standard MMO style quests that is)? You go kill bad guys. Easy enough. What do you do when you're through killing bad guys? Well that's the best part! You go back to town and get your reward! Easy enough. But hang on. Aren't we making a Star Wars game? Yeah. Okay, so why do we need to run back to town to get our reward? Characters have holophones. They've got credit accounts. Why not call up the interested parties when the job's done? Maybe something like:

 

Player: *calls up Freddy on the holophone*

 

Freddy: Hello?

 

Player: Hey Freddy, just wanted to give a shout out - those Jawas won't be bothering you anymore.

 

Freddy: Is that a burning sandcrawler behind you? Is that screaming?

 

Player: It was like that before I got here. Don't worry about it Freddy. Let's settle up.

 

Freddy: Alright. I'll transfer some credits into your account - maybe a little something extra since you came through so quickly...

 

Player: Thanks Freddy. You're good people.

 

Easy enough right? I'm not saying every quest needs to be completed via holophone - the current method works for many quests in the game. It gives the sense of your character slowly earning a reputation in a given location as a problem solver - more quests begin to open up, people take note. And of course there's all the quests where you need to physically pick up the *insert techno-babble maguffin here*. But for those quests where all you're doing is running a great distance to talk to someone (of which I've noticed many), this would be a Godsend. And more importantly, it adds that much more immersion into the universe we all love.

 

"Aww man, I'm done with these Jawas but now I've got to ride all the way back to the spaceport to tell Freddy."

 

"No you don't man, just call him up on your holophone!"

 

"Oh yeah! I've got a holophone!"

 

"Hell yeah you've got a holophone! This is freekin Star Wars!"

 

To borrow a line, that's all I've got to say about that. But I'm interested in what other people think. What are some other examples where you've seen proof that the developers didn't know (or maybe they just forgot for a second - let's not be too mean) they were making a Star Wars game?

 

I'll close on a positive note. To be frank, these complaints are fleeting things - easily forgotten and readily forgiven. At the end of the day, I'll remember a far more enjoyable time. Prowling through a broken city - buildings like cracked ribs of a beast that died long ago. Hunting. Scheming. Such a small thing...that little red dot - seems wrong that it should bring so much death.

 

I guess I closed on a melodramatic note. I won't apologize for that.

 

Not sure if it's been mentioned or not, but The Secret World does this. You go out and kill X number of mobs, then instead of running all the way back to the quest hub, you simply call your contact and the money is put into your account as well as any other reward.

 

Not sure if every quest in that game is like that, but the main story quests are.

[Vandicus]

Anyone else remember in beta when NPCs used to hand players stuff even though they were holocalling in? Good times.

 

Anyways, they don't have a holocall option for every single quest because that would totally counteract their design. Character interaction and animation is a key part of the VO. This means that they have to pick and choose places to do a holocall instead of a face to face conversation(though given the nature of the game they will tend to favor face to face conversations).

 

Would holocalls or better NPC placement be useful in some cases? Yes, but the people who do the animations aren't the same people who design maps aren't the same people who write the story. There will be unclear communication of intent, and things that weren't considered when a scene was animated. In the end these result in some minor flaws that don't really matter all that much.

[rbkrbk]

It's pretty simple. It's a time sink. Every game has it. Just count your lucky stars you were not leveling back in the day when you weren't given a free Emergency Fleet Pass after completing your Chapter 1/2 mission.

 

Every class has time sinks. There are parts of the operative story where you have to go from one planet to another, then back again, then to a new planet, and all you do it talk to someone at each point of contact.

 

These days, it is much easier than it used to be. Mike "Gabe" Krahulik of Penny Arcade actually made a vicious post about the game and this very issue. The thing he complained about has been noted and fixed. I will not disagree with you OP, that sometimes it can get annoying, and as much as I want the time sink gone, it won't happen. Just like the end game grind, developers HAVE to use some technique to keep people from finishing/getting the best gear too quickly. The longer you play, the more you have to pay (if you are subbed that is, which you clearly are). That's their reasoning anyway.

[CaptRavenous]

OP, you've obviosly not played Lord of the Rings online.

 

Quests there having you running back & forth to multiple areas, far away, just to return to the questgiver and be told he needs you to run off to other far-flung places, multiple times, back & forth!

 

Many quests are like that there. More than I care to remember.

 

A little back & forth happens in MMOs. I've not seen it much here, and find the quests here easy to do. It seems to me you are just lacking some patience, so to make up for it, you posted long-drawn out threads about how miffed you are that game-missions are made pretty much the way other MMOs make them, and how it is unfair, time-consuming, and shouldn't be that way.

 

Since you seem to know better, please begin development of your own Star Wars MMO. We will then compare the two games and see who really does know better.

 

What makes me laugh is, running across a world area through enemies annoys you, yet you feel your time was not wasted coming here to rant about it.

 

Crazy is as crazy does.

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

I do 100% agree with the OP and with YOU! And there is more that annoys and has nothing to do with fun anymore. It's all about money. Why for example do we have to buy adaptive gear with real dollars to look like a Jedi/Sith/Smuggler/Agent etc? Why? Why is this not earnable? Why is it that we can now all run around as Jedi for example crossdresed in Jugg armor? THIS IS ALL WRONG!!!!

 

Yeah, because the good guys dressing as the bad guys is deifinietely not something that happens in Star Wars.

 

http://webspace.webring.com/people/pa/adam_smith_010/fig_luke_stormtrooper_ref.JPG

[Altyrell]

Yeah, because the good guys dressing as the bad guys is deifinietely not something that happens in Star Wars.

 

http://webspace.webring.com/people/pa/adam_smith_010/fig_luke_stormtrooper_ref.JPG

 

Yeah but to be fair that would be part of a Mission and not something he did every day

[Dawgtide]

OP, you've obviosly not played Lord of the Rings online.

 

Quests there having you running back & forth to multiple areas, far away, just to return to the questgiver and be told he needs you to run off to other far-flung places, multiple times, back & forth!

 

Many quests are like that there. More than I care to remember.

 

A little back & forth happens in MMOs. I've not seen it much here, and find the quests here easy to do. It seems to me you are just lacking some patience, so to make up for it, you posted long-drawn out threads about how miffed you are that game-missions are made pretty much the way other MMOs make them, and how it is unfair, time-consuming, and shouldn't be that way.

 

Since you seem to know better, please begin development of your own Star Wars MMO. We will then compare the two games and see who really does know better.

 

What makes me laugh is, running across a world area through enemies annoys you, yet you feel your time was not wasted coming here to rant about it.

 

Crazy is as crazy does.

 

Lol so true. Remember in LOTR Online, the book 15 I think it was with Delossad, Rivendell and other areas such as Forochel. There was so much running back and forth they had to change it.

 

Nothing like running across 3 continents and Elrond says "Thank you for your help. Now head back to Delosaad and ask about........"

 

Or in the next expansion Eregion, where you would go do a quest to kill enemies at a camp. You would come back and the quest giver would say now head back into said camp and light these torches or pick up these pickaxes. You would go back and the quest giver would say I need one final errand for you to go back to said camp and call out the leader. Rinse and repeat for each quest hub.

 

This game has nothing on a game like LOTRO.

[craic_fox]

What got me upset was that the quest just seemed a blatant example of the developers not even trying to leverage the Star Wars universe into the Star Wars game they were making.

 

I have to agree with this. It's not the activity itself that is offensive, it's the blatant lack of imagination and the failure to consider how these tired old time-sink mechanics could be properly implemented into the game in a way that suits the setting. It's the thoughtlessness that counts.

[mArchangel]

Yeah but to be fair that would be part of a Mission and not something he did every day

 

Correct! It just destroys immersion, dilutes everything into a 'does not matter' soup and with that ends the motivation to achieve.

[mArchangel]

Not to mention, just because this is a Star Wars MMO doesn't stop it from still being a MMO. Pretty much every MMO out there has you go to location X then back to location Z to talk to NPC Alpha again.

 

Also, if they had it to where you constantly have to talk NPC's using your Holodisc or w/e it is called people would probably start complaining about that.

 

Plus, by running back to the NPC, you will come across more things to kill, and oh look MORE XP GAIN.

 

Yeah I agree there, but.....! But this is only worthwhile IF the areas we are playing in are actually worth exploring iE Rare Mob hunt, some special little places with iconic background(without being needed for quests, just for fun). SOMETHING that makes it all less linear and more fun to basically browse the settings. But nada, zip, zilsh....BOOOOORING! This then ends in a complete debacle for quests like the one described, because we all would not mind so much if we actually felt immersed in our environment and had something to sidetrack us a little you know!?

[mArchangel]

First world problems.

 

 

Seriously. It's a game. Get over it.

 

Seriously it's Star Wars and for a lot of us 'very close to home' you know. Glad you don't care. Why bother posting?

[mArchangel]

Yeah, because the good guys dressing as the bad guys is deifinietely not something that happens in Star Wars.

 

http://webspace.webring.com/people/pa/adam_smith_010/fig_luke_stormtrooper_ref.JPG

 

I already responded to your unqualified gibberish a bit further up but had to repost it. To make clear what kinda 'I don't care' folks and their oppinions are destroying this game by letting the devs get away with crap like this.

[mArchangel]

So basically you wrote a wall of text because you had to walk out of one of the quest instances, which for the vast majority of quests you don't have to do?

 

First world problems.

 

Seriously...

 

Yes he did. So what? It's a forum to share joy and grief. Stop trolling dude. SERIOUSLY!

[AngelCath]

There are games like the Secret world where you pick up a phone first thing and then call in to get your quest reward after finishing, no running back and forth. Great idea, loved it.

 

However, in many MMOs I guess they send you back in case they want you to see new questgivers for the same area but it's more out of habit than actually necessary.

You don't HAVE to make quests that way.

[GoldenHornet]

Yet another QoL feature I miss from City of Heroes (there are so many things this game could learn).

 

Speak to a contact, pick up a quest chain. After that simply call him/her for the subsequent missions. Less running around, more "arresting" bad guys. It was just more fun.

 

MMOs don't have to waste your time.