sexy outfits

[MGriffith]

Seriously? In a Genre like comic books. where every single male hero is a perfectly chiseled Adonis, with muscles upon muscles that don't even exist in the human body, who's clothing is always somehow just being ripped off of them at every turn in nearly every combat scene you are saying that the objectification is on women only? Also I'm not sure where full bodysuits so skin tight every rippling muscle beneath can be seen with celerity is practical for you. But I have some gay friends that would love to visit that place.

 

I was going to reply to all of this but JediMB has already explained the gist of the point I was trying to make.

Let me just add to it that you overlooked, or skipped in quoting, where I said that superhero comics are not exactly a shining beacon of gender equality and that that was not the point I was making.

 

Let me clarify something for you there is nothing wrong with seeing a man wearing revealing clothing. We didn't clear the theater when Christian Bale took his shirt off, or cringe every time a spartan came on screen in 300. There is absolutely nothing wrong with men in revealing outfits no one has a problem with it. You are showing an extreme example of a man in a pink (it shouldn't, but color does matter) outfit where he is wearing a bikini thong like bottom. That is why people find it absurd. Just like they would if he were wearing a pink frilly knee length skirt. But they wouldn't if he were wearing the same exact length skit but it was in the style of a kilt. The amount of skin showing is of no matter there. Its the style of the outfit showing the skin.

 

Actually, that was exactly the point of that image. NOT that showing skin is in and of itself objectionable, but the fact that female characters are habitually shown in clothes so skimpy that removing anything else would necessitate the use of censor bars. The image put the same costume on a male character to show the double standard being applied in the imagery.

And I brought up this image because the difference in clothing between male and female heroes in this game follows the same pattern, allbeit to a much less extreme degree than is found in superhero comics. The point is that the female characters get to parade around half dressed in midriff baring tops and even in their skimpiest underwear (the dancer outfit), while men have the option of running around dressed head to toes in ****** armour. Or silly robes, but both genders are subjected to those.

 

That would be like me saying that men are objectified because the invisible chest shows their bare chest but underwear on women that it's perfectly practical for a man to show his chesty bits but not a woman... No, it doesn't work that way it's not about skin shown its about how skin is shown. and what we think is normal. and OK as a society.

 

And this comment is another reason why I said that you understood the point less than you think. The argument is not, and never had been, about showing skin. It is about presenting a different image for male and female hero characters. As JediMB explained. Male heroes (and our characters in this game are heroes) are dressed as a power fantasy. Female heroes are (or can be) dressed as a male (sexy) fantasy. The positive point about this game is that it allows female heroes to dress more like a male power fantasy as well, but the point remains that outfits are designed from the point of view of the male psyche.

It would be nice to have outfits for both genders designed as women's power fantasy and a woman's sexy fantasy.

 

repeated argument snipped

 

when it comes to works like this game the bar is not at the same place because everyone is a socially accepted attractive person. I pose that male characters are chosen and dressed just as much for their looks as female characters in this game.

 

Yes. They get chosen and dressed to appeal to the male hero fantasy. They are dressed in such a fashion that male players can imagine themselves more heroic.

Women are dressed in a way that male players would like to see women run around more. The designs are not primarily about making women feel more confident and heroic. Again this is much more visible in the superhero comics than it is in computer games. But not that much more either. Just look at the average korean grindfest MMO and see if you can pick up the (not so) subtle hints expressed by the (very limited) choice in clothing for male and female avatars.

The two side by side comparisons I pointed out in that blog were specifically about comparing the way a male hero dressed to the way a female hero is dressed. You may have noticed it wasn't the men that were shown in a bikini and their lingerie.

 

Male characters get words like cool, BAMF, awesome and the like when being described, while females get words like cute, sexy, hot, and so on. However both sets of characters are being judges based on looks. What you seem to have a problem with is that some of the clothing for females is based on what society says is sexy on a woman which is less clothing. But you don't seem to have a problem at all with the idea that men looking good is based around chiseled muscles heavy armor and strength of arm.

 

Actually, what JediMB and I (and many women) have problem with is the objectivication. It is not that the men are drawn as excessively muscled. It is that men are not defined by their appearance but by their actions. While women are reduced to an attractive body.

That is why every time the subject of sexy armours in this game comes up you will also see a few players complain. Not because they don't want sexy armour. They want it available to both genders so not one gender is reduced to something that is nice to look at.

 

While I will not pretend to know the complete demographics of the game community I doubt that you can deny that the amount of body type 1/2 females and body type 2/3 males are abundant. These are the "perfect" body type and most pleasing to our eyes thanks to years of societal norms.

 

Everybody wants to look attractive, male and female. That is NOT the point of these complaints. Bioware keeps adding 'sexy' clothes only for female characters and has an extremely one dimensional idea of what sexy is in clothing. That idea has a lot in common with what motivates the superhero comic book artists when they design clothes/lingerie, action poses/supposedly sexy contortions and fighting/preening sequences for their male and female characters respectively. Superhero comics do this extremely magnified, but we are asking Bioware to break away from the stereotype and provide some intermediate range outfits for both male and female characters as well.

As I said in my post I wish that I could find the series of images somebody made with mock up sexy clothes for male companions in this game. It would give a much clearer picture of what would be welcomed by the female players of this game as -their- dress up fantasies for men. And then do for the female characters a similar range of outfits that find a middle ground between the combat armour or nuns habits and dancer bikini that we have now.

 

I'm not a woman, so I can never ever understand it from your point of view because I haven't lived it. But I do recognize that this isn't strictly a female issue, and neither is it strictly a male enforced stereotype. Like I said in my first post. If females had to be body type 3 and wear bull body armor, there would be a lot less women that would want to play this game just like if males were forced to wear bikini's and be body type 4. but its not a fault of the game. It's a fault of what we as a society find attractive on our males and females. that includes what women expect and like to see on females as well as what males like and expect to see on men.

 

No, it is the fault of the game to cater to only one subset of its playerbase.

In the end you will see most companions and player characters run around with normal armour, not the dancer outfit. By your logic that means the later should not be in the game either.

Also, I would recommend against the 'I am not a woman' empathy play and then proceed to dismiss concerns women might have about an issue. I do not think you did it intentionally but let me assure you that it does make you come across in glowing colours.

Most of all though, comments like these show that you keep missing the point.

 

Video game are a business and in a business you don't cater to a minority. If they added 4 more outfits for male only that were skimpy Speedo's or slave outfits like the ones linked in this thread do you think that a majority of players would put their male characters in it?

 

I do not know, and neither do you, because no game has ever given its players the opportunity. Most players do not put their female players in their underwear either so we are talking about two niche markets, one of which habitually gets catered for while the other gets ignored. You are justifying the status quo by refering to the status quo.

We are not talking here about male insecurities. Or rather, we are when you get down the root of the issue, but we shouldn't.

 

Like I said The slave Leia outfit was requested day in and day out before the game was created. The players gobble up every skimpy outfit made for women, and any "BAMF" outfit made for men and ask for more. If you look at these forums and the archives from pre launch you will see many request for males to get pants... not so many for them to have slave outfits and swimwear. That is why there are none.

 

Players have asked for a great many things, most of which were filed away for future consideration (aka the round archive). Bioware chose to implement the dancer outfit for female characters, mostly because it was part of the Star Wars mythos ever since Carrie Fisher showed up in it in Episode 5. But also it never occured to them that there was anything wrong with displaying female characters in what amounts to skimpy underwear, just as it never occured to them to display male characters in anything but what enhances their image of heroism.

 

When we ask for a 'male slave or dancer' outfit, what we really ask for is for Bioware to be aware of the cultural double standard they are perpetuating and doing something about it, just as they made the conscious decision to challenge the heteronormative standard in computer games (where the male hero saves the world and gets the princess) and instead allowed the female hero save the world and get the prince, or princess if she liked and where the male hero could get the prince as well.

It is not that huge a leap to do something similar with clothes and outfits.

[Beltane]

Okay... I read this whole thread, and I just want to say:

 

1) I am a woman.

2) I am a feminist.

3) This is what one of my characters wears.

 

Am I doing it wrong?

 

I won't get into the whole "male gaze" and female objectification in video games, comics, movies, media, etc. It is all very true. Yet TOR's armor options are a very pleasant surprise compared to every single other MMO I can think of. Yes, there's some revealing pieces--but the vast majority are not revealing. There are many sexy/attractive armor options for women that don't let everything hang out. As for the ones that ARE revealing--who cares?

 

It's not only men that want female avatars to dress sexy. Women dress sexy IRL all the time, and sometimes women want their online avatars to also dress sexy. Of course, opinions of what is sexy and what is trashy vary.

 

I personally am bored of the midriff tops and bikinis and would love to see some armor that is low cut yet covering otherwise. See? There's a request for more revealing clothes that isn't Female Fantasy Armor (i.e. pasties and thongs).

 

Anyway... objectification of women is far less of an issue in TOR than it is in many others. As for the whole slavegirl thing, the slave Leia costume is one of the most iconic things from the entire Star Wars franchise, so of course they have included it.

[SithKoriandr]

*whole lot of stuff snipped to save space*

 

When we ask for a 'male slave or dancer' outfit, what we really ask for is for Bioware to be aware of the cultural double standard they are perpetuating and doing something about it, just as they made the conscious decision to challenge the heteronormative standard in computer games (where the male hero saves the world and gets the princess) and instead allowed the female hero save the world and get the prince, or princess if she liked and where the male hero could get the prince as well.

It is not that huge a leap to do something similar with clothes and outfits.

 

What we need is male castanic armor from TERA transplanted over to TOR. ^_^ And while we're at it transplant castanics to TOR.

 

That said, while I'm all for it, it's never as simple as posts like this make it sound. Maybe TOR is different, but every MMO I've played had the devs saying the same thing, what they want to add and what the players want them to add when it comes to costumes isn't easy as they have to make it clip as little as possible with every body type, but also they have to ask is it worthwhile to add it.

 

Judging purely by what I see in game, I'm not sure it would be. We have the option for males without shirts on, and I can honestly say I don't see that option in use much at all. I admit I only have one server to really base this off of. But one could easily have their male companion running around topless.

 

That said, I'm still for it. In fact, they could look over at Tera, get some ideas, make 1 outfit similar but Star Wars upped and then see how well it gets used. If it looks to be worth it, then they can either go "Okay, it sells, lets make more and recolor them!" or "Okay, it's not selling, we tried."

[Projawa]

The slave outfit is not skimpy enough. Remove the flaps and some of the ornaments like the upper arm bands and the collar. Shrink the top. Then we're in business.

[Planar]

 

Take Satele's outfit: only the arms are bare, and she has high boots. Nothing revealing. But many would consider that sexy. And the Cartelmarket would probably overheat from all the purchases if that outfit was added to the next set of packs.

 

Totally agree, add Satele armor to a future Cartel market, you did Reven and you could even do Malgus

[SithKoriandr]

Totally agree, add Satele armor to a future Cartel market, you did Reven and you could even do Malgus

 

We could use some better thigh high boots. Do Satele's look good?

[AsheraII]

We could use some better thigh high boots. Do Satele's look good?

They're the only thigh highs where the backside isn't open on the upper leg. They're not really "sleek" though, there's a couple of big ornaments on them. But it'd definitely be welcome addition. But combined with her top, they look very good.

[JediMB]

Okay... I read this whole thread, and I just want to say:

 

1) I am a woman.

2) I am a feminist.

3) This is what one of my characters wears.

 

Am I doing it wrong?

 

Of course not. We should all be able to dress our characters however we want.

 

That should just include (among other things) an option for a proper Investigator Robe for my Inquisitor, as well as slave/dancer/casual outfits for male characters.

 

EDIT: That's actually a really cool look. I, too, noticed on my Inquisitor that the dancer's pants work really well when colormatched to certain robes/tops (like the customizable black robe you get on... either Korriban or Dromund Kaas), but I ended up getting the Battle Aspirant robes because I wanted something purple.

Edited February 1, 2013 by JediMB

[SithKoriandr]

They're the only thigh highs where the backside isn't open on the upper leg. They're not really "sleek" though, there's a couple of big ornaments on them. But it'd definitely be welcome addition. But combined with her top, they look very good.

 

Oh! Saw them today! I wasn't think they were HER boots! *facepalm* OH YES! Everytime I see her, I'm saying "I WANT HER BOOTS!"

[Ryofo]

So many people are missing the point and this thread has gotten far off topic.

 

Sexy doesn't mean more skin it means sexy, I refer you to

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=avengers+black+widow+costume&hl=en&safe=off&client=opera&hs=lJL&tbo=d&rls=en&channel=suggest&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=jioNUZyEKqia1AXCgoCIDQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAA&biw=1000&bih=583

 

no one can deny SJ looks sexy as Black Widow without showing any skin and I would love my Imp agent to be in something like this.

[SithKoriandr]

So many people are missing the point and this thread has gotten far off topic.

 

Sexy doesn't mean more skin it means sexy, I refer you to

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=avengers+black+widow+costume&hl=en&safe=off&client=opera&hs=lJL&tbo=d&rls=en&channel=suggest&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=jioNUZyEKqia1AXCgoCIDQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAA&biw=1000&bih=583

 

no one can deny SJ looks sexy as Black Widow without showing any skin and I would love my Imp agent to be in something like this.

 

Agreed. But that doesn't mean showing skin can't be sexy (though honestly I still don't see the appeal of the Slave Bikini Bottom), and showing skin fits in with Star Wars as Force Users don't need armor. So the less is more arguement (imo) is invalid. And the non force users can all be equipped with armor.

 

Though I have to wonder. What's the difference between Imperial Officers outfit and Slave Bikini when it comes to protection from lightsabers and blasters?

 

I understand the complaints when done in a D&D style setting (and even then, there's usually full armor styles to use, even if you don't like them), but in Star Wars, the chainmail bikini arguement is the dumbest arguement.

[MGriffith]

Agreed. But that doesn't mean showing skin can't be sexy (though honestly I still don't see the appeal of the Slave Bikini Bottom), and showing skin fits in with Star Wars as Force Users don't need armor. So the less is more arguement (imo) is invalid. And the non force users can all be equipped with armor.

 

Though I have to wonder. What's the difference between Imperial Officers outfit and Slave Bikini when it comes to protection from lightsabers and blasters?

 

I understand the complaints when done in a D&D style setting (and even then, there's usually full armor styles to use, even if you don't like them), but in Star Wars, the chainmail bikini arguement is the dumbest arguement.

 

The argument is that this reasoning is applied only to amour/clothes meant for women and never to men. It perpetuates, however unintentionally, the tired and old (and outdated) 'men look heroic, women look available' style of character design that started in the 1950 (with illustrators like Frank Frazetta) and that persists to this day even if the demographic it was intented to appeal to no longer is the only playerbase, or even majority of it.

 

I like my avatar to look sexy, but my idea of sexy falls in an entirely different spectrum than what is available in this game (where it is measured primarily or even exclusively along the lines of the amount of skin shown). I do not think I am that unique in this regard. Both in the wanting to look sexy and in the not finding it in this game.

[DavidSkyy]

There are more than enough "barely there" outfits. Hit the GTN, people can hardly sell them, they are super cheap.

 

Really? I can't find them. What search term should I enter? And what do you call "super cheap"? What I have found have been over 250,000.

[drakensang]

Really? I can't find them. What search term should I enter? And what do you call "super cheap"? What I have found have been over 250,000.

 

For female characters there are the dancer outfits. For males it looks bad. Even the regal apparel mini magically sprouts leggings on a male character, and invisible pants to combine with a longer top don't seem to exist, so there is no option to show off some well formed, muscular thighs and shanks. Mira's jacket, the trenchcoat and the relaxed sets allow to show some pecs and the sixpack, but that's all.

 

Ally my guys have to keep their legs chastly covered even in Tython summer for lack of shorts or scissors, needle and thread to improvise some.

 

 

This thread has a few nice suggestions on how to solve the problem. I don't expect major clipping problems or a terrible increase in workload from simply cutting and recoloring existing outfits.

Edited December 10, 2013 by drakensang

[Bluecloud]

Hot pants for everyone

[Fevee]

SWTOR has enough of those. Instead, let's try casual-looking outfits.

 

We have robes, we have armor plating, we have bikinis that solders and mercenaries like to run around in. The smuggler's stuff looks the most casual, let's expand on it. Normally long sleeve, or no sleeve, can we not meet in the middle and have short sleeves? There is no such thing as short sleeves in this game. Pants and robes are all long, or we have the bikini bottoms of slave girl outfits (with the exception of the regal apparel miniskirt). Let's perhaps see some shorts in this game.

 

Characters are stupid-enough-looking running into the warzone with their bikini and assault canon. Then SWTOR comes out with Jori Daragon's outfit, now we got Zangiefs (plural) running into the battlefield. This isn't the Playboy mansion, it's Star Wars. But if we're going to insist on so many outfit options, let's get some casual-looking clothes in the game; I'd like to see some t-shirts and more miniskirt varieties and shorts.

[DawnAskham]

SWTOR has enough of those. Instead, let's try casual-looking outfits.

 

We have robes, we have armor plating, we have bikinis that solders and mercenaries like to run around in. The smuggler's stuff looks the most casual, let's expand on it. Normally long sleeve, or no sleeve, can we not meet in the middle and have short sleeves? There is no such thing as short sleeves in this game. Pants and robes are all long, or we have the bikini bottoms of slave girl outfits (with the exception of the regal apparel miniskirt). Let's perhaps see some shorts in this game.

 

Characters are stupid-enough-looking running into the warzone with their bikini and assault canon. Then SWTOR comes out with Jori Daragon's outfit, now we got Zangiefs (plural) running into the battlefield. This isn't the Playboy mansion, it's Star Wars. But if we're going to insist on so many outfit options, let's get some casual-looking clothes in the game; I'd like to see some t-shirts and more miniskirt varieties and shorts.

 

I would love to see more skirts and shorts, in simple styles, that color well with dyes, and that don't clip. That and better footwear that is simple and casual.

 

Add in more tops like the Sensuous Dress or Mira's tops which look cute and feminine AND can be used in mix and match combination as they DO NOT have stupid doodads and flaps hanging off of them.

 

I actually would wear something like the Rep Dancer's Top (which dyes nicely) or the top which looks like the low level Sentinel top (which doesn't dye well) IF they could be used as dye-able mix and match tops with pants, skirts, and shorts.

 

Sadly, even though those tops and many others are basically bra / athletic type tops which I would wear IRL, the vast majority of them are saddled with crap like doodads and flaps that clip or clash with any bottoms that consist of anything more than a bikini (which I wouldn't run around IRL, and which stupid of stupid CAN be worn in SWTOR without the flap or doodad offending tops and look ridiculous).

Edited May 23, 2014 by DawnAskham

[DomiSotto]

I would love to see the simple white silky shirt on a male with a wide-open collar (abs showing is nice), wide sash and jewelry (or a neck bandana (?) at the throat, combined with a bandana as a headpiece for either a piraty or more docile 19th century romantic look). if something like that is already available, please let me know the name of the outfit.

 

The same idea with a black shirt with white pants would be great too.

 

And some selection of leather vests with cool detailing as chestpieces.

Edited May 23, 2014 by DomiSotto

[TizonaDelCid]

o.O

 

I don't know about you, but my female bounty hunter is wearing armor. If you're female characters are wearing the slave bikini, that's all on you (and yes people, it's WAY WAY WAAAAY over done )

 

That said, I think the Black Talon Marauder Jacket and all it's copies in different colors and some with armored shoulders are what is sexy! Doesn't matter what gender the character wearing it is, it's sexy!

 

That said, port Aspiring Jedi Vest for females and males to Empire side! Add a hood to the Agile Judgement vest (and it's copies)! Well, don't add a hood to those, but make a version of it with a hood down!

 

I think someone needs to get a little sunshine... ..maybe interact with some actual humans? you're talking about pixels here.