Why does Smash hit harder than Annihilate?

[Darth_Lycan]

Yeah with all this being said I honestly prefer using Carnage for PvP. I like the play style and utilities that come with it. The only reason I would spec Rage is merely because of the output in total damage at the end of a match that can be obtained.

 

Nice signature by the way Omophorus.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Darth_Lycan

[Aluvi]

Annihilation relies on dots. Dots do 40% or more of the damage from the spec. Rage relies on Smash. Smash does 40% or more of the damage from the spec.

 

If they made annihilation hit as hard as smash, they would need to rebalance the rest of the tree. I have always felt that anni didn't hit hard enough though.

[planet_J]

You are all forgetting a ramped up annihilate comes back every 7.5 seconds and a ramped up smash comes back in 15 seconds...I will take 7.5-9k every 15 seconds over 6k every 15 seconds.

[Lostpenguins]

Rage is currently unbalanced.

 

There really isn't anything more to it than that atm.

That's not why Rage suddenly became imbalanced. Smash was hitting that hard for a while, it's just that they reworked the rage tree to get Shockwave stacks in other ways (Berserk) and the ability to quicken to cooldown on Obliterate and Smash. Still, it's not OP if you know how to avoid a smasher.

 

Smash may do a lot of damage by itself, but annihilate is meant to be the best sustained DPS. The only time I ever go Rage spec in an operation is when it's a heavy aoe fight. Basically a heavy AoE fight I go Rage, all other times I'm Carnage or Annihilation depending on the boss.

[Never_Hesitate]

Because of reasons.

 

But take the aoe factor into your comparison: 4.5k vs 5 times 5k

Rage is ridiculous at the moment

Edited January 30, 2013 by Never_Hesitate

[byteresistor]

You are all forgetting a ramped up annihilate comes back every 7.5 seconds and a ramped up smash comes back in 15 seconds...I will take 7.5-9k every 15 seconds over 6k every 15 seconds.

There's a talent that reduces the active cd on smash and obliterate. Besides, I'll take an auto critting aoe attack that also happens to be the biggest hitting attack in the game anyday. Plus getting big hits and crits with annihilate is situational because there's no armor penetration tied to it.

[Jayshames]

Actually, I'd say Annihilation is better for 1v1 than Rage, people only angry about it because it's a high hitter.

 

If you could simultaneously do two abilitys that hit 3.5k each people wouldn't moan

soon as it's 1 ability that does 7k it's all QQ

[Dire]

Actually, I'd say Annihilation is better for 1v1 than Rage, people only angry about it because it's a high hitter.

 

If you could simultaneously do two abilitys that hit 3.5k each people wouldn't moan

soon as it's 1 ability that does 7k it's all QQ

 

Yea,

 

Personally I feel rage is weaker than annihilation in most pvp situations.

 

Only amateurs think Smash can't be dealt with. I find them easy. Damage increase or decrease is not the problem solver here, kids.

[Omophorus]

Yea,

 

Personally I feel rage is weaker than annihilation in most pvp situations.

 

Only amateurs think Smash can't be dealt with. I find them easy. Damage increase or decrease is not the problem solver here, kids.

 

You're high.

 

Annihilation is still one of the strongest dueling specs in the game, even after having self-heals nerfed, but to say that it's better in *most* PVP situations is farcical.

 

Rage has nigh-on peerless, nigh-on unavoidable burst (and AoE burst at that), insane amounts of mobility, resource generation nearly on demand, great survival thanks to lower CD Undying Rage, and nearly all of the filler between bursts either sets up the next burst or reduces the CD on the next burst.

 

The impact of smashbombing can be mitigated by having an entire team of people with good situational awareness, but there still isn't squat you can do when 3 smashbombers pick a single target and coordinate their burst. Especially if it's a hard-switch and they've all built their Shockwave stacks on other targets, so there's no clear indicator of who the smashbomb target is.

 

About 80% of all 5k+ single attacks come from Smash/Sweep. If that doesn't tell you that Rage/Focus is about as strong a PVP spec as exists in the game, I don't know what does. Burst is king in PVP, and Rage/Focus is the king of burst.

[Zamppa]

They already nerfed sorcerer hybrid dps trees around 1.2 because most bad players kept crying "omg sorcs are so overpover because they actually have some burst damage! They kill me so often, nerf them or I end my sub and never come back". Now they want BW to nerf rage marauder and take away their most powerful attack because again the bad players are dying because of it.

 

My hint for you people is: learn to play and stop whining if you die because the other player is more skilled and knows his/her class better than you know yours.

 

I think I have to quote myself again to let people know what's the thing with rage marauders nowadays ^^ Bad players whine because the rage marauders know their classes better and kill them! End of story, move along, nothing more to see here!

[verfallen]

Imo rage needs balancing.

 

Both buff at some place and nerfs at other.

 

This is shown by the overabundance of smashers in pvp, and the lack of them in ops and FP.

 

The medal system also encourage smashers with the "5k" hit medal. Thats a freebie for them.

 

So yes pvp isn't exactly balanced right now.

[landino]

They already nerfed sorcerer hybrid dps trees around 1.2 because most bad players kept crying "omg sorcs are so overpover because they actually have some burst damage! They kill me so often, nerf them or I end my sub and never come back". Now they want BW to nerf rage marauder and take away their most powerful attack because again the bad players are dying because of it.

 

My hint for you people is: learn to play and stop whining if you die because the other player is more skilled and knows his/her class better than you know yours.

 

Well said....

[planet_J]

E

You're high.

 

Annihilation is still one of the strongest dueling specs in the game, even after having self-heals nerfed, but to say that it's better in *most* PVP situations is farcical.

 

Rage has nigh-on peerless, nigh-on unavoidable burst (and AoE burst at that), insane amounts of mobility, resource generation nearly on demand, great survival thanks to lower CD Undying Rage, and nearly all of the filler between bursts either sets up the next burst or reduces the CD on the next burst.

 

The impact of smashbombing can be mitigated by having an entire team of people with good situational awareness, but there still isn't squat you can do when 3 smashbombers pick a single target and coordinate their burst. Especially if it's a hard-switch and they've all built their Shockwave stacks on other targets, so there's no clear indicator of who the smashbomb target is.

 

About 80% of all 5k+ single attacks come from Smash/Sweep. If that doesn't tell you that Rage/Focus is about as strong a PVP spec as exists in the game, I don't know what does. Burst is king in PVP, and Rage/Focus is the king of burst.

 

So...let me make sure I have this right...

 

You think that sniper ambush and cull and snipe and orbital strike...marauders annihilate and ravage and bladestorm and pt's thermal detonator and rail shot, plus juggernaut masterstrike ALL account for 20% COMBINED and smash is 80%?

 

I am afraid you've been smoking something...those numbers reversed might be giving smash too much credit.

Edited February 7, 2013 by planet_J

[Omophorus]

E

 

So...let me make sure I have this right...

 

You think that sniper ambush and cull and snipe and orbital strike...marauders annihilate and ravage and bladestorm and pt's thermal detonator and rail shot, plus juggernaut masterstrike ALL account for 20% COMBINED and smash is 80%?

 

I am afraid you've been smoking something...those numbers reversed might be giving smash too much credit.

 

Yes, that's exactly right.

 

Ambush breaks 5k on a crit only.

 

Cull breaks 5k over 3 seconds (and is thus easier to heal through). Same with Orbital Strike.

 

Snipe takes an act of a loving God to break 5k on anyone who isn't in green PVE gear.

 

Annihilate rarely breaks 5k, and Annihilation is a weak PVP spec at 50 due to the ease with which bleeds are cleansed.

 

Ravage breaks 5k over 3s, and only Carnage is reliably going to break 5k on the final hit. It's also probably the single-most-frequently interrupted channeled attack in the entire game.

 

TD and Rail Shot are the nearest equivalent to Smash, but frequently hit in the 4000-4500 range, breaking 5k with a fair degree of regularity.

 

Smash, on the other hand, instantly hits up to 5 targets, and nearly always does 5k+ damage (except on full tanks) once geared properly. On squishy targets it frequently breaks 7k.

 

There are plenty of classes that *can* break 5k. There are very few that can do it nigh-on constantly (maxed out PT). There are none besides a Rage spec'd Warrior or Focus spec'd Knight who can do it every 10s on up to 5 targets simultaneously.

 

5k+ damage spread over a 3s channel isn't remotely comparable as it is far, far easier to heal through. If a target has 5k HP and gets hit for 3500 by Orbital Strike because they strayed into the AoE, they're still alive and can be healed (often before the next hit lands if they don't escape the AoE). If they get hit by Smash, they're more than likely dead. If a Sniper is lining up an Ambush and you notice in time, you can often (but not always) LOS. If a Marauder leaps to you, you have virtually no way to avoid being hit with Smash. If you're not in cover, you can do practically nothing to prevent said Marauder from leaping to you.

 

There's a big reason Pyro PT and Rage/Focus Warriors/Knights are the most frequently-seen DPS in RWZ and the most frequently-seen DPS atop leaderboads (and not just doing fluff damage). That reason is unavoidable burst. Nothing else in the game has the same on-demand, unavoidable burst. Not even PT has the AoE burst of Rage/Focus.

 

I have as much fun smashbombing as the next person, but if *anyone* genuinely believes it is balanced, they need their heads examined. AoE instant burst on the level of a buffed Smash is a TERRIBLE game design choice. It would be in the best interest of PVP and the overall balance of the Warrior/Knight classes to have Smash toned down and Rage's single target DPS buffed significantly (because it's awful, currently).

Edited February 7, 2013 by Omophorus

[planet_J]

Smash is easy to counter though...are people just not intelligent enough to overcome it?

 

Force push kills a smash so does saberward or invincibility or backhand

 

Forcewave kills a smash...so does stun...tkt also males it extremely bearable....plus cooldowns on a shadow or assassin

 

Energy shield kills a smash...so does stun for pt

 

Sniper has entrench +orbital strike plus cover pulse kills a smash...

 

Ultimately the only trick is to move them off of you or pop a cooldown before they hit smash and they blew their wad for naught. You can almost see the toon start to cry when they realize they just hit you for 1.5-2k or even nothing if you pushed.

 

Really? People it isn't difficult at all...my vengeance jugg eats lolsmash monkeys all day...

 

Plus on something like a sniper...after you push...they will flat out lose a boat race if they want to come at you from range again. Especially if you got them with orbital strike or land an autocrit snipe after your shattering shot and proc followthrough for about 10k in 2 seconds...

Edited February 7, 2013 by planet_J

[Amebia]

Shockwave stacks last 20 seconds.

 

Point invalid

 

Since when does force push remove offensive buffs?

 

/thread

[planet_J]

You push as they smash...smash does not hit because you're outside radius of it...they burned their shockwave when they smashed.

 

/intelligence issues noted

[Omophorus]

You push as they smash...smash does not hit because you're outside radius of it...they burned their shockwave when they smashed.

 

/intelligence issues noted

 

If Smash doesn't hit anyone, Shockwave stacks are not consumed. Doesn't change that Smash is put on CD, but you'll have enough time to get another Smash in off the same set of Shockwave stacks that weren't used the first time.

 

And more importantly, the "counters" you bring up for Smash are the same counters you use against *any* class.

 

It's great, in theory. If you happen to have the appropriate CDs ready to go. In an ordinary melee, that may not be the case. In fact, it usually isn't the case. If it were, the spec wouldn't be as effective or as popular.

 

There's a reason it is both popular and effective. It's better at doing damage than people are at not-taking damage from it.

[Racter]

What's your highest annihilate hit? I hit a sage for 6943 tonight in an ahg, but that was with bt and wz buff. I can usuallycount on a 5K medal from it though. Obviously still way less than the highest smash. Edited February 8, 2013 by Racter

[Tykhelituss]

Focus/Rage can be balanced with two changes.

 

First: Nerf the 2%/4%/6% Force Critical Chance Boost in the Focus/Rage Line to either 1%/2%/3% or get rid of the skill entirely. This will force the player to stack Crit on their gear, thus reducing the high-end damage of their AoE but not to a frightening degree. This will also increase their single target damage without making the AoE outright ridiculous or hurting the other trees for both ACs.

 

Secondly: Decrease the damage of the AoE based on how many players are hit. For example: Typically a Smash or Sweep hits for upwards of 6000 on five targets (optimal conditions here obviously). Decrease the multiplier based on how many players are affected. So let's now say that there are five players standing there on a node (lack of intelligence to spread out and not all get smashed at least with the current system), and let's say a Smash is let off by their opponent. 6000 should not be obtainable on five people. I believe 4500-4800 would be fine as it puts it in balance of a Balance Inquisitor, Tactics Vanguard, Any Spec of Gunslinger, etc. That's saying that the player has maximum stacks of Shockwave. And if they just select one person with the maximum stacks, then the normal 6000 hit you see now could be possible. You will rarely see the abilities of other classes hit for upwards of 5000 consistently AND Be an Auto-crit AoE. They should have originally had the Auto-crit on Smash mean that it output less damage due to the fact it's a guaranteed monster hit. Very few other classes have an auto-crit ability as-is, why would you put an Auto-crit on an AoE that you know does upwards of 5000 consistently? I mean really. That's a common sense issue, sadly.

 

The simplest thing they could do would be to revert to 1.2 Focus/Rage without the Animation garbage. Thoughts?

Edited February 8, 2013 by Tykhelituss
Missed a key part of Info.

[Omophorus]

Nerfing Malice does more to nerf Annihilation and Carnage than it does to change Rage. The important skill auto-crits anyway.

 

You'd want to go after the auto-crit on Smash, not the Force crit on everything else.

 

Could see damage spread between targets, but that would make it unique amongst AoE attacks. Again, dealing with the auto-crit may be more useful or easier to implement.

 

I'd rather not revert to 1.2, but I'm entirely fine, oddly, with reverting the animation. The windup made for quality of life issues, but it also made landing Smashes take a little skill. Now it really is as simple as fly into a group and let one loose. The animation change was one of the biggest reasons it's become mocked as a "no skill" spec because it's no longer any challenge at all to successfully Smash.

[therealeasy]

Smash does not seem too powerful to me. If facing known smashers should not be clumped together and it has a considerable cooldown, even with 'max' reductions. Edited February 8, 2013 by therealeasy

[planet_J]

If Smash doesn't hit anyone, Shockwave stacks are not consumed. Doesn't change that Smash is put on CD, but you'll have enough time to get another Smash in off the same set of Shockwave stacks that weren't used the first time.

 

And more importantly, the "counters" you bring up for Smash are the same counters you use against *any* class.

 

It's great, in theory. If you happen to have the appropriate CDs ready to go. In an ordinary melee, that may not be the case. In fact, it usually isn't the case. If it were, the spec wouldn't be as effective or as popular.

 

There's a reason it is both popular and effective. It's better at doing damage than people are at not-taking damage from it.

 

That's exactly my point...they are the same as any other class...yes they hit hard...but they're not dynamite to anyone's rock/paper/scissors.

 

Of course, anything that makes people have to think is considered "OP" these days. That's why Pyro's have 10m range on TD now...

 

Also, outside of the 1 cooldown that breaks mez...I find I normally have atleast 1 defensive CD up almost 90% of the time, but then, I don't burn them all the second I get engaged either like so many do. There's a LOT of bad ranged dps out in WZs right now popping entrench the second anything starts to come at them...or burning up their pulse before people get in range.

 

Also, if you spec'ed it, Ambush can push somebody back 10m on impact...which is a great anti-smash tactic as well. Further, I never said they didn't hit anyone just not me. In WZs these days, with the insanity, they normally catch a piece of one poor unsuspecting fool who's not paying attention.

 

Either way...smash can be countered by someone who thinks about it.

[Tykhelituss]

Nerfing Malice does more to nerf Annihilation and Carnage than it does to change Rage. The important skill auto-crits anyway.

 

You'd want to go after the auto-crit on Smash, not the Force crit on everything else.

 

Could see damage spread between targets, but that would make it unique amongst AoE attacks. Again, dealing with the auto-crit may be more useful or easier to implement.

 

I'd rather not revert to 1.2, but I'm entirely fine, oddly, with reverting the animation. The windup made for quality of life issues, but it also made landing Smashes take a little skill. Now it really is as simple as fly into a group and let one loose. The animation change was one of the biggest reasons it's become mocked as a "no skill" spec because it's no longer any challenge at all to successfully Smash.

 

I don't know many Carnage Maras that really use Malice (being that Scream is an auto-crit and no other skill is Force Based for them usually) and if you nerf it by half, Annihilation Marauders usually already have enough Crit for their Bleeds that they don't need it. That remains true for PvP and PvE. Rage Marauders and Juggernauts usually pours three points into Malice and majority doesn't bother adding any Crit to their gear as for the maximum return on Smash and the other Force abilities.. That being said they still Crit a lot more than they should with no consequence given the fact their biggest hit is guaranteed to hit very hard. Other professions cannot get away with that. So, I can agree with you on the Auto-Crit issue but I want to know how you would change the Auto-Crit on Smash. Removal or Restructure? I also don't see how it isn't already unique in the fact that no other AoE is an auto-crit, so why not just enforce the fact and change it entirely? I mean, you don't see many Death Fields or Freighter Flyby's hitting for 6000 and upwards in a single hit over and over and over with a reduced CD either. I can agree with you about the 1.2 Rage taking some skill but regardless it was an issue that was brought to their attention, whether it be via forum QQs or via GMs. That being said, it was in fact changed and there's nothing that can be done about it now. It was brought to my attention that the buffs could have been a PvE related change but aside from trash clearing, it really isn't as viable as the other two even with the buffs regardless. So I have to wonder why they made the changes, you know?

Edited February 8, 2013 by Tykhelituss

[Racter]

You are clueless in regards to rage spec. You put one point in Malice because it is literally required to advance up the tree, no more. The talent is only good for annihilation Marauders and vengeance juggs.