Same gender romance discussion

[Palar]

I'm not sure, with the Macros... I've barely been playing since around the time it came in, with work and such, and it sounded a lot like the Archaelogy thing WoW had; which made me steer well clear of the whole thing.

 

Minge got through... I'm tempted to think back to the old high school slang and see what else can slip through.

[AelixVII]

They're all women, aren't they?

 

(I don't have a Pub character who's done those quests, but Imp side was all ladies.)

I don't remember getting any male flirts on my male Pubs (and I'm sure I'd remember!) also I'm going on the premise that I also don't remember seeing any whinging in the chat about 'why my character can flirt with males... is it a bug?' etc etc... Only Cytharat got that kind of -ahem- attention

 

 

Yeah bollocks.

 

(Holy crap, bollocks isn't censored. I love British swearing, Americans seem to have no idea what's going on. Does ****** work? Minge?)

 

Oh my god. Minge got through D: What the hell Bioware?

 

Splendid.

 

This is my chance! All the people that have caused me grief over the years on swtor about my characters being gay and all the complains I've had to put up with about SGR content are arse biscuits, wankstains, tossers, gob***** and divvy bollocks.

 

Bugger me.

 

Edit: Wow. Really? really? S.h.i.t.e was the only thing blocked out of all that? Har-de-har.

[Tatile]

BECAUSE IT IS TOO FUNNY NOT TO SHARE HERE:

 

Q: How many male novelists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

A: He demurred. People often complained he only wrote one dimensional lightbulbs. Efforts to explain that his lightbulbs were there to shed light on the main characters fell of deaf ears. Wasn’t it better not to include any lightbulbs at all?

~ http://the-toast.net/2013/11/04/male-novelist-jokes/

 

(Also, haha, wankstain. That's one of my favourites XD)

 

I can see the Bioware writers now: Hall looked at his keyboard, the feeling of ennui rising in his chest as he regarded the little crumb of blue stilton sitting insulting close to the 'e' key. What were those little whines, that filtered everso continuously from the far-away offices of the "Customer Relations Team"? Who, he dared to ask himself, could possibly complain, at having one lone, shining example of male homosexuality, in this vast galaxy, given for a single, pure and beautiful kiss, and then snatched away, forever to remain untainted and uncorrupted by the coming war? Why for, would someone lament having such a brilliant, crystalline moment, to watch for all eternity, when surely, their love would have otherwise faded, and fallen silent?

 

(Damn, I couldn't make it purple enough. Curses.)

[fabiyun]

"masculinity is so fragile that apparently even the slightest brush with the feminine destroys it" (source)

 

One could say the same of heterosexuality - the hint of the non-hetero suddenly sends the cishet into a spiral of gender dysphoria and bi-curiosity.

 

Also - to Mr. Wall of White Men Are Great And Brilliant, "cis" is not an acronym (though, reading your post, I can see why you loved to leap at "clinically isolated syndrome" and cling to it like a raft in an empty, incredibly dry, nowhere-near-the-sea, street), but rather the use of a Latin term meaning "on the side of" - literally in this case "cisgender" means "on the side of (the assigned) gender" - it refers to those people who are comfortable with their assigned birth gender, which is based on their birth sex. But well done for using this as a soapbox to tell us how great white men are and how they're not at all responsible for any of the wrongs in this world. *claps* well done.

 

Loss of menergy? It's all part of the conspiracy.

 

Menergy though, as so many things, is an appropriated term from the gay club scene. Patrick Cowly recorded a track with the name, that he also gave to a party at The EndUp in SF. (I love Disco )

But that's heterosexism and heteroprivilege right there, can just appropriate things, claim them, and change their meaning to something mysoginist and homophobic, and people will eat it up (quite literally too in this case).

[Tatile]

Menergy though, as so many things, is an appropriated term from the gay club scene. Patrick Cowly recorded a track with the name, that he also gave to a party at The EndUp in SF. (I love Disco )

But that's heterosexism and heteroprivilege right there, can just appropriate things, claim them, and change their meaning to something mysoginist and homophobic, and people will eat it up (quite literally too in this case).

 

I just realised "great white men" is entirely too close to "great white sharks" for my comfort, because I love Great White Sharks, they're my favourite shark. They're gorgeous and airborne and wonderful. Petition to change all white male NPCs in this game into Great White Sharks <3

[copperjack]

I just realised "great white men" is entirely too close to "great white sharks" for my comfort, because I love Great White Sharks, they're my favourite shark. They're gorgeous and airborne and wonderful. Petition to change all white male NPCs in this game into Great White Sharks <3

 

...airborne?

[Tatile]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/airborne

 

also

 

 

 

(We have a local aviation event of that name, so it's suck to me with the meaning "things what go in air")

[copperjack]

Before now it's never been a word I particularly associated with sharks. That's quite impressive though.

[Tatile]

Before now it's never been a word I particularly associated with sharks. That's quite impressive though.

 

Now imagine them with lightsabres

[Palar]

When I think airborne sharks, I think Makos - she needs a new character model as well...

 

(Makos, Mako... whatever the plural is)

Edited November 10, 2013 by Palar

[Tatile]

I admit, if given the choice, I'm sure my Warrior would romance a Shark over Quinn. Quinn's fun and all, but... ****, zi's a SHARK!

[Palar]

 

The SW simply getting over the betrayal would make more sense that way, too.

 

 

"I'm sorry about biting your leg off, my Lord, but I thought you were a seal... I'm a shark, what do you want?" According to The Clone Wars, there are shark-people in Star Wars so it could happen.

 

(As a plus for Mako Mako, BioWare could troll the OGRs for once. Turns out the cloners split some crumbs from their flake sandwich into the petri dish.)

Edited November 10, 2013 by Palar

[copperjack]

The SW simply getting over the betrayal would make more sense that way, too.

 

 

"I'm sorry about biting your leg off, my Lord, but I thought you were a seal... I'm a shark, what do you want?" According to The Clone Wars, there are shark-people in Star Wars so it could happen.

 

(As a plus for Mako Mako, BioWare could troll the OGRs for once.)

 

Might want to spoiler mark that for people who haven't played SW yet.

Edited November 10, 2013 by copperjack

[Palar]

Done - I always forget we have that option... I keep thinking the gear icon is something else.

[Tatile]

(As a plus for Mako Mako, BioWare could troll the OGRs for once. Turns out the cloners split some crumbs from their flake sandwich into the petri dish.)

 

I do sometimes wonder what would happen if, for all future games for the next twenty or so years, the "gruff, cishet white male" archetype were removed, to be replaced with women, bi- or agender individuals, transmen, men of colour, women of colour, panromantics...

 

The next, I dunno, Assassin's Creed style game is about a black transwoman lesbian, assassinating heads of corporations and government officials in space, but through using her prowess and her mental acuity, rather than the tired "femme fatale" trope. And so, for every game. Master Chief takes off his helmet and is Idris Elba. (cis)Men removed from combat duty in Call of Duty, replaced with women who actually look like soldiers.

 

And then we use the dying nerd boy's rhetoric against his pitiful pleas...

[Seireeni]

^ In battlefront games, good enough reason play a sniper. Not inclueding the "heroes" and "villains" in battlefront 2, I found exactly one female soldier

 

But I was happy since there was at least one. ^^ It's better than none.

[copperjack]

Race and sexuality would probably be pretty easy to do, but for most games I don't think it would be possible to include gender identity in a way where it's relevant and not done badly. I guess maybe a gender neutral protagonist could be done just by using 'they' but that's about it.

 

It would be nice if there were more games where women accomplished things without needing to use sex appeal. I think every game I've played with a female protagonist has been good on that front, but I can count them on one hand.

[Tatile]

Race and sexuality would probably be pretty easy to do, but for most games I don't think it would be possible to include gender identity in a way where it's relevant and not done badly. I guess maybe a gender neutral protagonist could be done just by using 'they' but that's about it.

 

Gender neutral pronouns (not necessarily "they") would be a start - also, gender is irrelevant in almost every case, hence why having other genders shouldn't be so much of a big deal.

 

It would be nice if there were more games where women accomplished things without needing to use sex appeal. I think every game I've played with a female protagonist has been good on that front, but I can count them on one hand.

 

And thus, my proposal. If we can force game developers to stop thinking inside their heteronormative, cishet white man box, then we should get more nuanced, more respectful and more diverse representations of women, people of colour, non-neurotypical individuals, LGBT individuals and etc.

 

Of course, it's also entirely possible that many existing game studios will crumble and cry - loudly - at having their toy taken away from them, saying that they can't possibly play with all the other, more interesting, brand new toys, but that just opens up options for newer developers to make themselves known in the market. Everybody wins!

Edited November 10, 2013 by Tatile

[copperjack]

I know gender is irrelevant a lot of the time, but trans in itself is not a gender. I just don't see an easy way to drop 'this character is trans' into the game. I don't think knowing what's in their pants would be relevant to gameplay and beyond that there's not that many differences between playing as a cis or trans woman.

[Tatile]

I know gender is irrelevant a lot of the time, but trans in itself is not a gender. I just don't see an easy way to drop 'this character is trans' into the game. I don't think knowing what's in their pants would be relevant to gameplay and beyond that there's not that many differences between playing as a cis or trans woman.

 

There are other ways of doing it, also, "other genders" doesn't necessarily refer to trans* people, but also agender, bigender, genderfluid, etc.

 

It would certainly require more attention to detail and care than is to be found in almost any current major games studio, and some of the indie.

[copperjack]

Yeah, that was me combining two different arguments i think. I don't think there is a good way to have a trans protagonist in any game similar to the mainstream ones now. I think gender neutral ones would be easier but I dislike the rainbow of pronouns people are coming up with when there is a perfectly good gender neutral one already. I haven't seen people propose a way of including other genders that doesn't boil down to clothing choice, which is nice but not exactly a gender thing.

[Tatile]

Well, it doesn't necessarily have to be overt. You're rummaging through your own medicine cabinet because GAME STORY and find your HRT patches and go "oh, should really remember these", or might be going through your old photo-albums because GAME STORY and see that time when you were ten and for whatever contrived reason you were still dressing/being forced to dress as/etc. your assigned birth gender. Or perhaps you were never under that pressure, and there's ten year old you in clothing of your choice. Whatevs. It doesn't have to be "look in my knickers, look in my knickers, oh, won't you look in my knickers?" - it could be a casual reference to stuff like experiencing male privilege/being seen as a woman (both things that have been touched upon by trans* individuals - I remember one man talking about the change he experienced in fat-shaming when people stopped perceiving him as a woman, and suddenly a lot of the fat-shaming he had been subject to either disappeared or changed from being thinly veiled comments on his appearance.)

[copperjack]

Well, it doesn't necessarily have to be overt. You're rummaging through your own medicine cabinet because GAME STORY and find your HRT patches and go "oh, should really remember these", or might be going through your old photo-albums because GAME STORY and see that time when you were ten and for whatever contrived reason you were still dressing/being forced to dress as/etc. your assigned birth gender. Or perhaps you were never under that pressure, and there's ten year old you in clothing of your choice. Whatevs. It doesn't have to be "look in my knickers, look in my knickers, oh, won't you look in my knickers?" - it could be a casual reference to stuff like experiencing male privilege/being seen as a woman (both things that have been touched upon by trans* individuals - I remember one man talking about the change he experienced in fat-shaming when people stopped perceiving him as a woman, and suddenly a lot of the fat-shaming he had been subject to either disappeared or changed from being thinly veiled comments on his appearance.)

 

Hmm, I guess that could work. I was thinking about different types of games and also having visions of developers saying "Well we have to make it obvious visually that she's trans, let's give her more of a square jaw and add 6 inches to her height."

 

That said I'm not sure I'd trust any developers to do a good job with a trans character. The major ones are still wrapping their heads around gay characters and a lot of the more indie people that want trans inclusion tend to have a bit of a fetishizing tone. Not necessarily sexual, but more just being incredibly pleased with how diverse and accepting they are and putting way too much emphasis on those aspects of the characters. I wouldn't want to play a game all about a character being trans any more than I would want to play one all about the character being gay or straight.

[Tatile]

Hmm, I guess that could work. I was thinking about different types of games and also having visions of developers saying "Well we have to make it obvious visually that she's trans, let's give her more of a square jaw and add 6 inches to her height."

 

That said I'm not sure I'd trust any developers to do a good job with a trans character. The major ones are still wrapping their heads around gay characters and a lot of the more indie people that want trans inclusion tend to have a bit of a fetishizing tone. Not necessarily sexual, but more just being incredibly pleased with how diverse and accepting they are and putting way too much emphasis on those aspects of the characters. I wouldn't want to play a game all about a character being trans any more than I would want to play one all about the character being gay or straight.

 

It comes up very often, when calling for diversity in games or other media, that people immediately assume that having a character be black, or trans, or bi, will make the story - and the character - entirely about "that". Yes, it's highly likely that the interactions and the point of view of the story will be coloured by the character not being a cishet white male, but that's because most stories are told by or about cishet white males, and that's considered to be "normal" - anything else is a self-congratulating deviation.

 

Mentioning that Master Chief is a transman wouldn't make the Halo series suddenly all about trans* issues, or the unique experiences of a transman in the military, unless that is the story that the writers want to tell.

 

I imagine, Assassin's Creed is not all about Altair or Ezio's *****es, simply for them being cismen, but more about their assassinating. The same can be true about a game with a trans* lead, or a ciswoman lead, a PoC lead etc. if it is allowed to be - if that is what the writers want it to be.

 

EDIT I CAN'T SAY *****? FINE. MIGHT MAN MEAT SAUSAGE SWORD WHAT SITS IN THEIR TROUSERS BEING ALL MANHOODY. THERE. *****.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Tatile

[copperjack]

It comes up very often, when calling for diversity in games or other media, that people immediately assume that having a character be black, or trans, or bi, will make the story - and the character - entirely about "that". Yes, it's highly likely that the interactions and the point of view of the story will be coloured by the character not being a cishet white male, but that's because most stories are told by or about cishet white males, and that's considered to be "normal" - anything else is a self-congratulating deviation.

 

Mentioning that Master Chief is a transman wouldn't make the Halo series suddenly all about trans* issues, or the unique experiences of a transman in the military, unless that is the story that the writers want to tell.

 

I imagine, Assassin's Creed is not all about Altair or Ezio's *****es, simply for them being cismen, but more about their assassinating. The same can be true about a game with a trans* lead, or a ciswoman lead, a PoC lead etc. if it is allowed to be - if that is what the writers want it to be.

 

EDIT I CAN'T SAY *****? FINE. MIGHT MAN MEAT SAUSAGE SWORD WHAT SITS IN THEIR TROUSERS BEING ALL MANHOODY. THERE. *****.

 

No I don't automatically assume that the character would be about that, and I think it would be great to have more characters where those things were a one of mention and complete non-issues. But a lot of the people I have seen pushing for inclusion of gay and trans people have been wanting things like a trans man whose issues are fighting transphobia and bigots and having to bind his chest and suchlike. That is making the game revolve around the character's gender.

 

I was reading a different discussion a while back about female characters in video games and someone said that a great way to have the female characters be distinct from the male characters would be to have them face sexism in the game. They'd be able to punch out the person harassing them after, but the consensus was that that would be a terrible idea as most people play games for escapism and don't want to face their everyday problems in them.