Same gender romance discussion

[ChrisOld]

I am still looking forward to COMPANIONS that are gay/lesbian. If they ever add more companions and/or rewrite some of them.

 

Does anyone think that will happen? Been 2 years and other than a small romance option on Makeb there is no word on this. Esp. on gay/lesbian companions.

[Highborne]

I don't really think any of this is some sort of devious master plan to frustrate lgb gamers or raise up straight male gamers. That seems like reading way too much into it. I think it's more that they either didn't put a huge amount of thought into it at the start and just went with tradition, or that there was some kind of executive meddling along the way and now it takes a lot longer to develop new things than people think. Either way the result is the same on our end, but there's no reason to develop a persecution complex or anything.

 

I don't think they're deliberately doing squat to us. But they sure as hell don't give a damn about us or what we want from SWTOR.

[Highborne]

I am still looking forward to COMPANIONS that are gay/lesbian. If they ever add more companions and/or rewrite some of them.

 

Does anyone think that will happen? Been 2 years and other than a small romance option on Makeb there is no word on this. Esp. on gay/lesbian companions.

 

Never happen. Period. Here's what it would require them to do:

 

EITHER

 

(a) Introduce an entirely new companion (either one per class, or another version of Treek/HK-51), arrange for and pay a voice actor and do a whole bunch of coding;

 

OR

 

(b) Rewrite companions to be gay.

 

Either way, given that BioWare can't be arsed even telling us what's going on honestly, I don't see them going to that much effort.

[Tatile]

I don't really think any of this is some sort of devious master plan to frustrate lgb gamers or raise up straight male gamers. That seems like reading way too much into it. I think it's more that they either didn't put a huge amount of thought into it at the start and just went with tradition, or that there was some kind of executive meddling along the way and now it takes a lot longer to develop new things than people think. Either way the result is the same on our end, but there's no reason to develop a persecution complex or anything.

 

Bioware are consciously aware that the lack of information on this (and more) subjects are driving people away from the game. Regardless, they passively accept this fate and do nothing to actively rally against it, i.e. put out more information or engage in discourse.

 

It is tacit assent through silence - people can mark this as a "progressive" game, even if it has done very little, and use it as their own baseline to meet, not exceed. Their many months of silence prior to Makeb allowed for people to make many vitriolic, hurtful and downright disgusting threads and posts, displaying their bigotry and homophobia, on the basis of perceived tacit consent from Bioware's silence.

 

Still now, there are threads which ask for an "anti-gay/SGRA" toggle, despite it being against the forum rules, because of perceived tacit consent on Bioware's part.

 

Bioware might think that their lack of action dives an air of impartiality, but in reality it is taken as agreement: "We can't say we agree with the bigots, the misogynists, the homophobes, the racists, so we won't say anything", and it's damn hard to give facts against that when the quotes and information you're relying on are dated from 10 to 12 months ago. Or 24 as it is now.

 

It would just be nice to get a "Hey guys, no concrete info yet, but we're working on it!" or a "Hey guys, we're still reading this thread and like your ideas". Something that can show up in the Dev Tracker. Something that can be pointed to and we can go "hey, look, they still care". But they're not reading this thread, they're not engaging with the community, they're not acknowledging anything but the latest bug-crises-whine, they're not volunteering information, they're not putting up Developer Blogs any more, they're not doing articles or FAQs or anything interesting. They are doing, at best, the bare minimum to keep people mildly calm. Make of that what you will, but for me it does not seem to bode well.

[ChrisOld]

Being silent is an EA trademark. Never talk to the community or tell them anything, or even stop in and say "hi".

The only exception to this rule I have seen is the SIMS forums, which might be a reason why it is one of their largest franchises.

 

To be honest the policy of "We will charge you an arm and a leg for our products and then sit here smugly not listening to you about your wants as a customer or even giving the slightest hint of gratitude" is probably one of the main reasons they were voted worst company in America two years in a row.

 

It is called public relations, and giving the impression that their basic sentiment is "we got your money, bugger off" certainly does not help with that at all.

[ChrisOld]

Never happen. Period. Here's what it would require them to do:

 

EITHER

 

(a) Introduce an entirely new companion (either one per class, or another version of Treek/HK-51), arrange for and pay a voice actor and do a whole bunch of coding;

 

OR

 

(b) Rewrite companions to be gay.

 

Either way, given that BioWare can't be arsed even telling us what's going on honestly, I don't see them going to that much effort.

 

 

I agree that EA would not want to shell the moeny out for something they would not make an immediate profit on. For example, they can not sell Vette being gay/bi as an expansion pack it would be a free feature, so why pay for making it and give it away free? That does not help the bottom line, does it?

 

The fact though is that it is an MMO, and maybe therefore, the answer is yes, it does help the bottom line. Because they promised same sex romance a long time ago and that measly semi romance on Makeb was basically a joke.

A lot of people, such a s myself, consider that promise unfulfilled as a result.

 

It is quite possible, that as result it could hurt their bottom line quite easily. Why would I want to subscribe to a game when they promise a feature, and two years later they have yet to fulfill their promise, or even acknowledge it? This could effect my decision to subscribe, as well as many others.

 

Now I will acknowledge that some do not like the concept of gay characters. Me, I am okay one way or the other, but they did make that promise. I feel the promise was not fulfilled and I am getting sick of the silence. I also do not like companies reneging on their promises.

[Tatile]

Anyone who was going to unsubscribe over SGRAs has already done so, with Makeb. Now all Bioware is doing, is driving away people who are waiting and shunning people who might subscribe for story content (what with story content no longer being a thing.)

 

They're hurting their own profits by assuming not having a one-time sale for companion SGRAs means they'll get no money. They could adopt new players with the news, who might then become subscribers or people who purchase off the CM, the former being something Bioware acknowledges, the latter being something they adore.

 

It's ludicrous that this silence and general air of disdain is allowed to continue.

[ChrisOld]

I agree. they are short sighted, they are doing the same with story content. Once people run through all 8 classes they might just unsubscribe...they need to add more to keep the subscriptions going. But they seem to only be interested in the cartel marktet.

 

What good is that? Do they think people will just spend money on cheap cartel things forever? It is the story that drags them in, without that, there is no customer base for the market.

[Tatile]

It seems that spending money on creating companion SGRAs and future class story content would be far better than buying me nachos.

 

Nachos that stay in a vault in Austin.

[Palar]

So I'm guessing the Space thing is where they've put all their eggs from the last year... all because Hero-Alpha ('the little Enginge that couldn't') can't handle actual PvP. Gotta do what all the other games do, even if it's not on their level.

 

Setting aside the niggling issues that can be taken from 'chasing the dudebro market, the rest of you shut up and take what we give you', and simply looking at "We're like every other MMO, just not as sturdy"... I don't get it. They want to be the Home Brand of MMOs? I thought that was Aion's niche, but what would I know?

 

Dunno, but I'm done in a few days when my sub ends.

 

Good luck to those who are still going to wait around.

 

Another long-timer bites the dust... adios, Stuffy - hope you had as much fun as the rest of us.

[Highborne]

So I'm guessing the Space thing is where they've put all their eggs from the last year... all because Hero-Alpha ('the little Enginge that couldn't') can't handle actual PvP. Gotta do what all the other games do, even if it's not on their level.

 

Setting aside the niggling issues that can be taken from 'chasing the dudebro market, the rest of you shut up and take what we give you', and simply looking at "We're like every other MMO, just not as sturdy"... I don't get it. They want to be the Home Brand of MMOs? I thought that was Aion's niche, but what would I know?

 

 

 

Another long-timer bites the dust... adios, Stuffy - hope you had as much fun as the rest of us.

 

Yeah, the 3.0 announcement - that it was all about PvP and space combat - was enough to inspire me to cancel my renewing subscription. I like space combat more than most, but I wanted storyline advancement. More importantly, I wanted Bioware to actually start fulfilling their promises, damnit!

[Tatile]

Setting aside the niggling issues that can be taken from 'chasing the dudebro market, the rest of you shut up and take what we give you', and simply looking at "We're like every other MMO, just not as sturdy"... I don't get it. They want to be the Home Brand of MMOs? I thought that was Aion's niche, but what would I know?

 

(Emphasis mine.)

 

Well, since Bioware have ditched the one thing that made them stand out (story content), now they have to become a generic MMO in order to be remembered, which makes about as much sense as anything else at the moment.

 

They had a few things which made them "not quite a WoW clone", but very rapidly Bioware are trying to drop the "not quite", when in actuality they should have been making moves to become more unique. But that would have required thought and innovation, which are hard, but copy-pasta is easy.

[Bleeters]

I wouldn't exactly call space combat copy pasting World of Wacraft features, myself.

[Tatile]

I wouldn't exactly call space combat copy pasting World of Wacraft features, myself.

 

True, I was being a rather disingenuous on that point. Still, I wonder if the success of it would mean? More mini-games to make a slightly less mediocre MMO and a pouring into simplified=easier to balance system? If the expansion does not live up to expectations, would Bioware halt production on similar things and concentrate on the Cartel Market, standard PvP things (I don't PvP, are the new arenas capture-the-flag things like warzones?) and further daily zones as 'end-game'? (I like raiding, but can't speak for the complexity of the latest ones, as I did SM Fortress and Palace last night for the first time and had the expected teething problems when not steam rolling due to gear.)

[Tatile]

I'm too tired to wail in frustration, so I'll just mildly grunt and slink off to bed.

 

Soon

 

Also - holy ****, I'm not on his blocked list. There's a surprise.

[Bleeters]

More daily quest hubs with terminal questgivers, obviously. Edited October 12, 2013 by Bleeters

[Tatile]

More daily quest hubs with terminal questgivers, obviously.

 

Highly likely, but not until after the PvP expansion comes out, which will be April? So June?

[MCaliban]

Like take Scorpio. Scorpio isn't a woman. Scorpio is a droid. Who happens to have a female chassis and voice modulator. "She's" no more female than a car the owner calls by a female name.

Cars don't have self-identity, intelligence, or personhood though, Scorpio does. The codex entry suggests she identifies as female.

[Tatile]

Cars don't have self-identity, intelligence, or personhood though, Scorpio does. The codex entry suggests she identifies as female.

 

It is worth noting that the maleAgent does get a [Flirt] option with SCORPIO, but only after she puts on a human guise. This further implies that there are writers in Bioware: Austin (I do not know if Mr. Freeman wrote all of the Agent's interactions, or only ones of the main story, as there are different writers for different companions e.g. Ms. Helper and Corso) that there is a certain way women (or people) should look and present themselves, in order to qualify as a romantic or sexual interest. I bring this up mostly because of EDI and Joker's relationship in the Mass effect series, which - to my understanding - is based, in part, on Joker's attraction to EDI's personality and voice, rather than wholly her physical form.

[copperjack]

It is worth noting that the maleAgent does get a [Flirt] option with SCORPIO, but only after she puts on a human guise. This further implies that there are writers in Bioware: Austin (I do not know if Mr. Freeman wrote all of the Agent's interactions, or only ones of the main story, as there are different writers for different companions e.g. Ms. Helper and Corso) that there is a certain way women (or people) should look and present themselves, in order to qualify as a romantic or sexual interest. I bring this up mostly because of EDI and Joker's relationship in the Mass effect series, which - to my understanding - is based, in part, on Joker's attraction to EDI's personality and voice, rather than wholly her physical form.

 

To be fair, when EDI was basically a shiny ball on a stick she and Joker didn't have any kind of attraction, it was only after she got a female body that he started flirting.

[markcymru]

Off topic, but...

Happy Thanksgiving from Canada to all !

Edited October 13, 2013 by markcymru

[Euphrosyne]

To be fair, when EDI was basically a shiny ball on a stick she and Joker didn't have any kind of attraction, it was only after she got a female body that he started flirting.

Nooooooope.

 

The Collector attack on the SR-2 is clearly meant to be the turning point in their relationship there. EDI makes her first joke ("I enjoy the sight of humans on their knees...that was a joke") and refers to him as "Jeff" for the first time. Joker in turn stops constantly pissing and moaning about "it", thanks her for her concern ("Are you going to be all right, Jeff?" "No...but thanks for asking."), and then refers to her as, well, "her" in the debrief with Shep, Miri, and Jacob afterward.

 

After the Collector attack, there's a new conversation line for them. Shep can ask how Joker is holding up and he'll act as though everything's fine (after briefly unloading on the Commander in a mild ***** session). EDI mentions that he may have suffered a number of stress fractures; Joker responds with "that's what pills are for, EDI!...she is so my mom." Shep brings up this rather dramatic about-face - from loathing to friendship in the space of a few hours.

 

Joker: "Huh. No, I hadn't really noticed that. EDI, should I have noticed that?"

EDI: "No, Jeff. It is not worth noting."

Joker: "Well there you go Shepard, looks like we haven't noticed anything."

Shep: "I think you're taking the 'human-machine interface' a little far."

Joker: "I'm just having a little fun with you, Commander. No need to get all, 'Unnatural!' on me."

EDI: "What Jeff and I are exhibiting is more a platonic symbiosis than hormonally-induced courtship behavior."

Joker: "...okay, yeah, that was...a little creepy."

 

Yeah, that's flirting. The conversation option about "human-machine interface" even says "You're flirting with the ship."

 

What was unfortunate about the Sexy Robot Body sequence was that it kind of...obscured the earlier character development. (I actually thought the EDI body thing was a fairly elegant way of solving the gameplay dilemma of potentially killing off the crew in ME2. And I also thought that the whining about objectification in a game with linear "romance arcs" and omnisexual blue alien girls was stupid. But leave that aside.) People didn't really pay attention to the stuff that happened in ME2 after the expedition to the Derelict Reaper at Mnemosyne. And there wasn't much shown of Joker and EDI in ME3 before she hijacked "Dr. Eva's" body. So it looked more or less like we went straight from grease on her bridge cameras to "I would've baked a cake!"

 

Some conversation options in the ship dialogue with EDI and Joker immediately after she gets her "robot body" sounded like they ought to have come immediately after the escape from Earth, but were shoe-horned into the other conversation to compress things. Those conversation options - "oh, she got crafty, Commander" - again would have fleshed out Joker and EDI's relationship without the distraction of a metal rack. Other conversation options came up, but were probably ignored, like how EDI mentions that Joker initially got pissed off and told her that she didn't need a sexy robot body to impress him, and "I then called him on his bull****, and we proceeded to talk normally." The problem is that it's really not bull, at least not totally. But a lot of people playing ME3 took that comment at face value.

Edited October 13, 2013 by Euphrosyne

[theStirge]

To be fair, when EDI was basically a shiny ball on a stick she and Joker didn't have any kind of attraction, it was only after she got a female body that he started flirting.

 

Joker was clearly extremely fond of her, though. I mean, when you consider that even with organic women his condition means having to be extremely careful, his willingness to try it with a robotic woman means there's probably some pretty serious emotions involved. It's not like she's the only woman he could get, either. He's fairly attractive, he's funny yet guarded, loyal to a fault, I know tons of women(or men, for that matter) that would be on him like white on rice.

 

Also, on a related note, Traynor was all over EDI's voice before she even knew she was sentient, much less mobile. Joker probably had similar thoughts, but, knowing EDI was sentient and initially disliking her, kept them to himself, and then later, when they started getting along, who's going to talk like that about someone they know? ...well, okay, lots of people. But not Joker.

[copperjack]

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that they went directly from Joker hating her to them getting it on once she got a sexy human body. I just didn't read their interactions at the ed of ME2 as anything more than friendly, and then almost the first thing that happens in ME3 was her getting a new body. So yeah, their relationship would probably have developed the same way if she hadn't gotten her body until later in the game, but what's actually shown is their friendship turning into attraction around the same time she gets *****.

[Palar]

I'm too tired to wail in frustration, so I'll just mildly grunt and slink off to bed.

 

Soon

 

Also - holy ****, I'm not on his blocked list. There's a surprise.

 

They changed Lead Writers? Must have missed that... I'm kinda surprised they didn't just dump the position, at this rate.

 

(Off-hand, I'd say the SSSP thing is to copy EVE.)