Same gender romance discussion

[BartElroy]

Yeah I meant Dorian from DA. I don't know how I feel about his story. On the one hand, I hear the devs talking about how his story really resonated with players going through something similar so it has value in that respect; on the other hand, the father-disapproves-of-his-gay-son-until-he-learns-to-accept-him story is THE most played out gay trope to ever exist. I'm in my early 30s and I've always made a point to follow gay characters on TV shows and in films since my early teens so that is around 20 years of seeing the same story over and over and over and writers are still doing it. I don't know if David Gaider was trying to educate people or what but making gay people sit through that after school special for the millionth time when most of us lived it or at least know someone who did makes me roll my eyes so hard.

 

More on topic, I took a break from my IA for a couple of reasons: On the off chance (no hope really) that there might be some 1-50 SGR content coming with KOFTE and also that being able to respec our companions to perform any combat role will also be included from 1-50 because I'm getting really fed up with Kaliyo but I need her because I am really crap at playing a sniper.

 

So I started a SW and I think I prefer his personality (and definitely his voice) anyway. Is Malavai Quinn going to break my heart? I obviously can't tell just by looking at screen shots

 

If you make it through the SW storyline without wanting to shove your lightsaber in Quinn's eye socket and swish it around a bit, you'd be one of the very, very few. Lt. Pierce, on the other hand...

[Foelhe]

Yeah I meant Dorian from DA. I don't know how I feel about his story. On the one hand, I hear the devs talking about how his story really resonated with players going through something similar so it has value in that respect; on the other hand, the father-disapproves-of-his-gay-son-until-he-learns-to-accept-him story is THE most played out gay trope to ever exist. I'm in my early 30s and I've always made a point to follow gay characters on TV shows and in films since my early teens so that is around 20 years of seeing the same story over and over and over and writers are still doing it. I don't know if David Gaider was trying to educate people or what but making gay people sit through that after school special for the millionth time when most of us lived it or at least know someone who did makes me roll my eyes so hard.

 

I won't drag this out - because it's off topic, you're right - but it's damn nice to hear that someone else feels that way about it.

 

If you make it through the SW storyline without wanting to shove your lightsaber in Quinn's eye socket and swish it around a bit, you'd be one of the very, very few. Lt. Pierce, on the other hand...

 

I think Quinn's the second most-hated companion, based on what I've heard from random groups of fans. That said, some people seem to like him, so it's not exactly impossible.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Foelhe

[Asheris]

I think Quinn's the second most-hated companion, based on what I've heard from random groups of fans. That said, some people seem to like him, so it's not exactly impossible.

Some? There are quite a bit of us Quinn-lovers all around the game, both women and men

I'll go as far as to say it's 50/50 but the haters are pretty vocal

[Zandilar]

Some? There are quite a bit of us Quinn-lovers all around the game, both women and men

I'll go as far as to say it's 50/50 but the haters are pretty vocal

 

As of last night, my uber-LS gay Sith Marauder forgave Quinn. It's just sad that he's not able to romance the guy.

 

Put me in the Quinn likers club? I think he did the best he could in a poor situation - he probably thought he was dead either way, and thought that Baras, being older and more experienced, probably gave him the higher probability of surviving.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Zandilar

[Foelhe]

Fair to say, listening to random groups of fans is not the most accurate of polling methods. Edited August 31, 2015 by Foelhe

[ForjKlahaa]

If you make it through the SW storyline without wanting to shove your lightsaber in Quinn's eye socket and swish it around a bit, you'd be one of the very, very few. Lt. Pierce, on the other hand...

 

Ah well... at least I won't be pining over him. Then again I have odd tastes so who knows?

 

I won't drag this out - because it's off topic, you're right - but it's damn nice to hear that someone else feels that way about it.

 

Those who aren't a fan of Dorian or his storyline tend to keep quiet as they don't want to be seen as betraying the cause or giving ammunition to GG-ers who can then cry "See, even gay people think the gayness is too in your face!", which is not what I mean at all. It's just, as a gay man, I don't really enjoy being lectured on acceptance and tolerance. At least be more nuanced about it. The whole storyline, as well as Krem's, was just too on-the-nose for a fantasy setting in my opinion. However, my position on this is no more valid than those who feel differently; especially if it spoke to them on a personal level.

Edited August 31, 2015 by ForjKlahaa

[BartElroy]

Ah well... at least I won't be pining over him. Then again I have odd tastes so who knows?

 

 

 

Those who aren't a fan of Dorian or his storyline tend to keep quiet as they don't want to be seen as betraying the cause or giving ammunition to GG-ers who can then cry "See, even gay people think the gayness is too in your face!", which is not what I mean at all. It's just, as a gay man, I don't really enjoy being lectured on acceptance and tolerance. At least be more nuanced about it. The whole storyline, as well as Krem's, was just too on-the-nose for a fantasy setting in my opinion. However, my position on this is no more valid than those who feel differently; especially if it spoke to them on a personal level.

 

Krem's I was fine with. Krem's was basicallly "Yeah, I'm a trans man. Yeah, it sucked growing up. I left, found a group of people who accept me for what I am, and I'm happy and mostly angst free. In fact, what angst I do have is entirely over my concern that the boss's horns are going to break off one night while me and the boys are dragging his sorry drunk *** back to his tent."

 

Honestly, when it comes to Dorian, I liked him a lot as a character, but yeah, his storyline was tired. I thought Steve Cortez was much better done in ME3. Sera on the other hand... I think she's a wonderful character, but as a Romance, I wouldn't touch that. My Inquisitor considered it, but eventually ended up with Josephine.

[BartElroy]

Some? There are quite a bit of us Quinn-lovers all around the game, both women and men

I'll go as far as to say it's 50/50 but the haters are pretty vocal

 

Quinn rubbed me the wrong way right from the start. Even before the Quinncident, I couldn't stand him. He was introduced as a huge sycophant. He's openly racist towards Vette. He's one of only two or three companions that openly displays racism at all, even on the imperial side. His pissy attitude towards Pierce. The man pretty much throws a jealous hissy fit when you bring Pierce onto the ship. I don't hate his as much as Skadge, but even without knowing ahead of time about the Quinncident, I spent the whole time expecting him to turn out to be Bariss' spy, and he did not disappoint.

 

I think, on my list of least favorite companions, Quinn ranks second. Oddly, I think the Inquisitor is the only one who doesn't have at least one companion I'd rather get rid of.

[Damask_Rose]

Some? There are quite a bit of us Quinn-lovers all around the game, both women and men

I'll go as far as to say it's 50/50 but the haters are pretty vocal

 

I suspect the majority of Quinn haters don't really understand his story. Even the very first conversations with Tremel lay the foundation of his predicament. There is far more depth to his story than most of the other companions have.

 

And I suspect if he had ***** like the ultimate betrayer, Kaliyo, more people would forgive him

 

And as for Pierce, after his misogynistic "take it for the team" conversation, I haven't been able to stand him!

[Diviciacus]

As of last night, my uber-LS gay Sith Marauder forgave Quinn. It's just sad that he's not able to romance the guy.

 

Put me in the Quinn likers club? I think he did the best he could in a poor situation - he probably thought he was dead either way, and thought that Baras, being older and more experienced, probably gave him the higher probability of surviving.

 

No, Quinn knew he was walking to his death. He knew there was no way an idiot with a blaster and a couple of droids was going to take down a Sith Lord. He was blindly following orders, which makes what he does even dumber, since his whole companion arc is all about him not taking the idiocy of higher ranked people lying down.

 

And then he just straight up rolls over for Darth Baras. The only way what Quinn does makes sense is if he was playing you for Baras from the moment you met. Sorry, Female and gay Male Warriors, he never loved you. He was using you.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Diviciacus

[MIkeBear]

I would imagine that an SGR thread is a very LGBT friendly biased place for discussion of Dorian.

 

For LGBT people/allies - yeah, Dorian's story line was very familiar and tropey, possibly echoing many of our own experiences with our families, or the stories we've seen in TV and film for years.

 

But I would think that for straight gamers, particularly ones who have had little to no experience with gay people, playing through Dorian's story, seeing how he is treated by his father, seeing the way it impacts him, etc. would be a really positive thing and something that they haven't seen before.

 

Whether that sort of thing is desired by players on either side of the debate is a different question. I didn't mind it, and actually really liked that they gave him a story that dealt with his sexuality.

 

More on topic: I think that works in a single player story driven experience. In an MMO I think generic playersexual is the way to go.

[Diviciacus]

I would imagine that an SGR thread is a very LGBT friendly biased place for discussion of Dorian.

 

For LGBT people/allies - yeah, Dorian's story line was very familiar and tropey, possibly echoing many of our own experiences with our families, or the stories we've seen in TV and film for years.

 

But I would think that for straight gamers, particularly ones who have had little to no experience with gay people, playing through Dorian's story, seeing how he is treated by his father, seeing the way it impacts him, etc. would be a really positive thing and something that they haven't seen before.

 

Whether that sort of thing is desired by players on either side of the debate is a different question. I didn't mind it, and actually really liked that they gave him a story that dealt with his sexuality.

 

More on topic: I think that works in a single player story driven experience. In an MMO I think generic playersexual is the way to go.

 

The thing about Dorian was that just because we're not gay doesn't mean straight people don't see the media. We see the same plotlines in television sitcoms and dramas. We see the same news. We see the same internet. It's not like we're wearing blindfolds in the dark and Dorian's story was a mystical and rare insight into the trials and tribulations of coming out.

 

Illo dicto, I would tend to agree with you that playersexual would be the most logical route for an MMO. Given Bioware's storytelling, however, I'd like to think that although Theron and Lana will remain playersexual (or perhaps even be stated as bisexual), that forthcoming companions and NPC's will have defined sexualities and not just be playersexual. Playersexual has always felt the tiniest bit of a copout to me.

[BartElroy]

No, Quinn knew he was walking to his death. He knew there was no way an idiot with a blaster and a couple of droids was going to take down a Sith Lord. He was blindly following orders, which makes what he does even dumber, since his whole companion arc is all about him not taking the idiocy of higher ranked people lying down.

 

And then he just straight up rolls over for Darth Baras. The only way what Quinn does makes sense is if he was playing you for Baras from the moment you met. Sorry, Female and gay Male Warriors, he never loved you. He was using you.

 

That was pretty much my assumption from the get go. "This guy is Baras' stooge, tagging along to spy for master." My Warrior wasn't even surprised, or particularly angry when he betrayed her. It was more of just, "Really? This is the best you could do?"

 

Personally, if I were in charge, I would have set it up so that if you hadn't taken the collar off Vette by a certain point, she stops giving you conversations, and then, she actually figures out how to get the collar off herself, helps Quinn with the betrayal, and disappears during the fight. If you let DS Jaesa torture her, she slips Jaesa a little poison, and you get back to the ship to find your Padawan dead. So, depending on the choices you make, you could end up loosing three companions during the Quinncident. Because that would be an awesome moment of "choices have consequences."

[Asheris]

And then he just straight up rolls over for Darth Baras. The only way what Quinn does makes sense is if he was playing you for Baras from the moment you met. Sorry, Female and gay Male Warriors, he never loved you. He was using you.

Yeah, he probably was working for Baras all along but I tend to disagree on the "he didn't love you" part. The whole romance is amazing because he doesn't want to get involved, you actually have to fight for his affection which makes the whole "Quinncident" even a more twist and makes me think that thing didn't exactly go as he planned it. But they obviously rushed the whole thing and it makes little to no sense at all with his cocky dialogue on that station.

 

He would make such a great SGR but it just won't happen, won't it?

[Foelhe]

For LGBT people/allies - yeah, Dorian's story line was very familiar and tropey, possibly echoing many of our own experiences with our families, or the stories we've seen in TV and film for years.

 

But I would think that for straight gamers, particularly ones who have had little to no experience with gay people, playing through Dorian's story, seeing how he is treated by his father, seeing the way it impacts him, etc. would be a really positive thing and something that they haven't seen before.

 

I get that, but I'm a little bit tired of gay characters mostly existing so straight viewers can sympathize with them. And I'm a little bit tired of having to cover Homosexuality 101 every time we get a few new stragglers into the classroom. I mean, yeah, it's important stuff, but we're never going to have everybody on the same page, so either we keep spinning our wheels with the same stories forever or we get up and get moving.

 

Illo dicto, I would tend to agree with you that playersexual would be the most logical route for an MMO. Given Bioware's storytelling, however, I'd like to think that although Theron and Lana will remain playersexual (or perhaps even be stated as bisexual), that forthcoming companions and NPC's will have defined sexualities and not just be playersexual. Playersexual has always felt the tiniest bit of a copout to me.

 

I'd definitely prefer it that way. At this point I'd honestly be fine with either - if playersexual is what they need to get everything to work, I'll live with it happily.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Foelhe

[Cythereal]

I get that, but I'm a little bit tired of gay characters mostly existing so straight viewers can sympathize with them. And I'm a little bit tired of having to cover Homosexuality 101 every time we get a few new stragglers into the classroom. I mean, yeah, it's important stuff, but we're never going to have everybody on the same page, so either we keep spinning our wheels with the same stories forever or we get up and get moving.

 

Eh, I can forgive it in Dorian's case because he's one of four gay/bi characters and the only one who plays it that way. Josephine never once mentions the PC's gender or her own sexuality, she simply reciprocates the PC's interest and does so regardless of gender or for that matter race.

 

I'd definitely prefer it that way. At this point I'd honestly be fine with either - if playersexual is what they need to get everything to work, I'll live with it happily.

 

Agreed. Especially given the constraints of the existing game, playersexual might be the best compromise. Especially for light-siders given that Lana's completely gone off the rails from being a sane, highly reasonable and rational woman to being a bog-standard dark side Sith from what we've seen of the expansion so far and Theron, if he is a companion in the expansion, is morally dubious at the best of times.

 

Star Wars has a long issue of almost every LGB character in the setting being a bad guy or having very close calls with it. Two Mandalorians in one of the Traviss books, an Imperial Moff in one of the latest books, a fallen Jedi who can be redeemed in KOTOR, a Jedi Padawan who can fall (also in KOTOR), a Sith Lord on Makeb, and a Sith Lord and a morally ambiguous spy in Shadow of Revan. Lemda Avesta stands out for being a reasonably nice, if curt and snappish, bisexual individual in Star Wars.

[sentientomega]

More on topic, I took a break from my IA for a couple of reasons: On the off chance (no hope really) that there might be some 1-50 SGR content coming with KOFTE and also that being able to respec our companions to perform any combat role will also be included from 1-50 because I'm getting really fed up with Kaliyo but I need her because I am really crap at playing a sniper.

 

For the time being, use SCORPIO, ranged dps really only properly works if your comp is a tank, and deception/infiltration and concealment/scrapper, due to having to get behind a target frequently.

 

And as for Pierce, after his misogynistic "take it for the team" conversation, I haven't been able to stand him!

 

What conversation is this?

 

if playersexual is what they need to get everything to work, I'll live with it happily.

 

Absolutely, we, the player, with our character, get to pick the sexuality of our comps, unless they have a clearly defined history detailing past liaisons.

 

a Jedi Padawan who can fall (also in KOTOR)

 

If you mean Belaya, she's a Jedi Knight, and LI of Juhani, iirc.

 

It's the legacy of the mentality behind the making of Basic Instinct (note the year of production: 1992), and every film that is basically anti-LGBT propaganda-filled, if you're anything but totally 100% straight, you must be a monster, or at the very least, not remotely like anyone's ideal friend//LI or whatever.

 

I sincerely hope that 4.0 breaks that tradition of LGBT demonisation, or erasure, whatever's applicable to whichever situation.

Edited August 31, 2015 by sentientomega

[Cythereal]

What conversation is this?

 

One of Pierce's war buddies you recruit for the Bastion assault is a woman who got a cushy job by becoming an old but powerful Moff's mistress. Pierce tells her to get the guy's troops for the Bastion assault, she objects on the basis that she hates sleeping with a dirty old man. Pierce tells her to take one for the team.

 

If you mean Belaya, she's a Jedi Knight, and LI of Juhani, iirc.

 

Yeah, and if you kill Juhani rather than save her, it drives Belaya nuts and she pops up on Korriban as a Sith.

[eartharioch]

One of Pierce's war buddies you recruit for the Bastion assault is a woman who got a cushy job by becoming an old but powerful Moff's mistress. Pierce tells her to get the guy's troops for the Bastion assault, she objects on the basis that she hates sleeping with a dirty old man. Pierce tells her to take one for the team.

 

That's arguably tacky, not misogynistic.

[Zandilar]

Illo dicto, I would tend to agree with you that playersexual would be the most logical route for an MMO. Given Bioware's storytelling, however, I'd like to think that although Theron and Lana will remain playersexual (or perhaps even be stated as bisexual), that forthcoming companions and NPC's will have defined sexualities and not just be playersexual. Playersexual has always felt the tiniest bit of a copout to me.

 

It's not a cop out, at least not for this game it wouldn't be. It's a very real solution to limited resources. It'd sure be nice if every single LI-able NPC had their own sexualities and sexual histories that come up in conversation sometimes - but they just don't have the 0s and 1s and $ to do it justice... Especially not with two factions and two alignments which have to be taken into account in romances as well.

 

Also, bear in mind that "defined sexualities" would limit the number of gay/lesbian/bisexual NPCs. We've got (stab in the dark for KotFE) like 6 companions available to us - they'd probably make at least one male and one female available for SGR in KotFE, and faction doesn't seem to be a big factor for this expansion, but then you're facing alignment... Would they be LS or DS? Would one be one and the other be the other? Would LS females be SOL? LS male? DS female? DS male? Because some of those combinations would be left out (unless they decided to make both SGLIs at least alignment neutral - which they won't because Lana got announced as a companion, and assuming she continues as a bisexual LI, she's DS).

 

This has happened already in the game. Imperial males got one male love interest in RotHC, and Republic females got one female love interest in RotHC. If you were an Imperial female or Republic male? Too bad, you were SOL. Also to a certain extent in SoR with Lana's romance cutting off abruptly for Republic PCs, and Theron's cutting off for Imperials. Giving us a shared pool of companions goes some way to address the Imperial/Republic divide, but it doesn't address LS/DS issues... Unless they gave us at least two SGLI options per gender, and do we honestly think that's likely to happen when all evidence to this point suggests that they won't?

 

 

I can't remember who mentioned her, but Lemda Avesta is not a good example of a bisexual love interest. The only reason people say she's bisexual is because Cytharat on the Imperial side is gay (in that his flirts only come up for male PCs), neither of them have any indications of their sexualities outside of who their flirts are available to. She's also emotionally removed, distracted, and never really seems to warm up to the PC. She doesn't even send you a follow up mail, leaving it up to her uncle to convey her "I'm busy" message that we're supposed to interpret as "I miss you". In short, there's a whole lot of context missing from that romance arc.

 

All that said, I really do like her and hope she comes back in some form - my female scoundrel would definitely appreciate that, especially if the attraction between them could be explored... I'd like some indication that my character's affections are returned. Hmm... maybe I should write some fan fiction... That may well be the only way I'll get any satisfaction...

[SithKoriandr]

It's not a cop out, at least not for this game it wouldn't be. It's a very real solution to limited resources. It'd sure be nice if every single LI-able NPC had their own sexualities and sexual histories that come up in conversation sometimes - but they just don't have the 0s and 1s and $ to do it justice... Especially not with two factions and two alignments which have to be taken into account in romances as well.

 

No. it is a cop out. It's just a cop out you dont mind having. The idea of the game is it's your story. Not your story by making up what all the NPCs are, but how your character reacts to those NPCs. Yes, you're given a short amount of options, and really I have no idea why they can't add 4th or 5th choices to the wheels, but to make them playersexual just so players can decide who those characters are and to just make them feel happy, is a cop out.

 

And now it wouldn't even feel all that great. If we go by that idea of "we pick our NPCs" then I may just want someone else rescuing me instead of Lana on every character. The idea being that one can choose to make the NPC characters however they want then leads to the PC deciding which NPC does what and how and if they do it.

 

What the game could use, is some purely SG companions. They plan to make all the NPCs fall into line for all the classes really, so why not make a few new ones who are SG only?

[Zandilar]

No. it is a cop out. It's just a cop out you dont mind having. The idea of the game is it's your story. Not your story by making up what all the NPCs are, but how your character reacts to those NPCs. Yes, you're given a short amount of options, and really I have no idea why they can't add 4th or 5th choices to the wheels, but to make them playersexual just so players can decide who those characters are and to just make them feel happy, is a cop out.

 

The romances in this game are already in your cop out territory. Do you think it's really realistic that Ashara "I'm still a Jedi!" Zavros would stay with a Dark V Sith Inquisitor, let alone romance him? Well, she stays, and she's a LI and she will romance somemale who gets her affection high enough. Cop. Out.

 

What the game could use, is some purely SG companions. They plan to make all the NPCs fall into line for all the classes really, so why not make a few new ones who are SG only?

 

Because the pool is going to be too small, there will not be enough of them to do it properly... And we'll end up with some people's PCs ending up SOL. So either you're going to have to be content with some of the NPCs being bisexual (which people will call playersexual just because people seem to have problems acknowledging bisexuals as even existing), or you're going to have to find some soothing words for those of us who are annoyed/angered when we found ourselves SOL. Again.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Zandilar

[SithKoriandr]

The romances in this game are already in your cop out territory. Do you think it's really realistic that Ashara "I'm still a Jedi!" Zavros would stay with a Dark V Sith Inquisitor, let alone romance him? Well, she stays, and she's a LI and she will romance somemale who gets her affection high enough. Cop. Out.

 

 

 

Because the pool is going to be too small, there will not be enough of them to do it properly... And we'll end up with some people's PCs ending up SOL. So either you're going to have to be content with some of the NPCs being bisexual (which people will call playersexual just because people seem to have problems acknowledging bisexuals as even existing), or you're going to have to find some soothing words for those of us who are annoyed/angered when we found ourselves SOL. Again.

 

People have been asking for sg companions. "If you can't go back and change them to playersexual, make some new sg ones!" But if they do that, you say "Well, people may not like them."

 

I'm sure plenty will like them. You have not only bi ones, you'd have gay ones, so if the gay ones aren't appealing, you'd have the bi ones to go after.

 

Ashara was always planned to be the male LI's love interest, so no, it's not a cop out. I think the cop out there is they decided to not let people kill companions, and maybe, I can only guess here, they could have left on their own if it made sense. As I stated in another thread, I find there's quite a few companions I wonder why they're still on the ship.

[Saelinne]

No. it is a cop out. It's just a cop out you dont mind having. The idea of the game is it's your story. Not your story by making up what all the NPCs are, but how your character reacts to those NPCs. Yes, you're given a short amount of options, and really I have no idea why they can't add 4th or 5th choices to the wheels, but to make them playersexual just so players can decide who those characters are and to just make them feel happy, is a cop out.

 

 

Eh it's really not a cop out:) We really didn't decide who the DA2 companions are...we were just lucky enough for our chosen LI to be who we want them to be. That is why I have a problem with people who insist DA2's characters are all bisexual. They are not. The only one who is is Isabella and maybe Anders....and possibly someone else I am forgetting, but Merrill...etc? As far as we know they just happen to be gay or straight:)

 

About Lana rescuing you...do we know....well...why? Does she sense you or something and search for you specifically or does she just...stumble on you? Because if it's the second option then no one of your chars will have a problem with her coming to the rescue....well maybe if you are a Sith...or maybe a JK....as you will be a ''damsel in distress'')

[Cythereal]

About Lana rescuing you...do we know....well...why? Does she sense you or something and search for you specifically or does she just...stumble on you? Because if it's the second option then no one of your chars will have a problem with her coming to the rescue....well maybe if you are a Sith...or maybe a JK....as you will be a ''damsel in distress'')

 

From what's been shown, yes she sensed you through the Force and came looking for you specifically.