Same gender romance discussion

[markcymru]

Well that's your problem right there. You're taking someone else said - but which isn't sourced to Bioware - as fact. There has been some datamining, and it shows that almost all companions are showing up again. But, it's not from Bioware so I wouldn't trust it any further than I can throw it.

Well not exactly as FACT, Divvers! I did say 'if true', and 'could it be?'

 

It IS speculation, I know, but it would also be a very neat solution for BW, no?

Edited August 5, 2015 by markcymru

[Zandilar]

No. Wanting to play a gay character does not mean one would have to play a character with a gay companion. Playing a gay character would just mean, there was no LI option on that particular class.

 

And what I said was, let the NPC decide. We know Kaliyo is bi, so the Agent would have had that option. You on the other hand seem to just think herosexual is the way to go, and that's fine.

 

I actually have mixed feelings about herosexual LIs. On the one hand, I know it can be done and done well, in such a way that dialogue for each gender of PC is unique to that gender, that references past relationships, and effectively leaves it up to the player to determine if the NPC is gay, bisexual, or straight through choices in dialogue without the player even necessarily realising it's happening.

 

On the other hand, I've never seen it done well. At best, it leaves the NPC's sexuality entirely ambiguous. At worst, it reuses lines between genders with just the pronouns changed.

 

But either way, it would be better than what we have for 1-50 now.

 

However, with this new expansion we're getting a companion reset, so to speak, with a whole new cast of companions coming in... A shared cast of companions. Companions we apparently can recruit regardless of class. If they wanted to introduce companions with individualised sexualities, now's the time. No one will feel shorted because their class didn't get a gender-and-sexuality appropriate love interest, because all LIs will be available to all classes. Of all the compromises, this is probably the best compromise of all - even better than herosexual.

[Cythereal]

Personally, in addition to Kaliyo I strongly suspect Risha will be a bisexual romance option in the expansion if they add that feature. People like to talk about Akaavi because she's butch, but she talks about an ex boyfriend a lot and more importantly Risha damn near gets on her knees and proposes to a lady smuggler who maxes her affection, talking about how the smuggler has become such an important part of her life and how whenever Risha tries to imagine the future the lady smuggler is always in it.

[Saelinne]

Just for curiosity sake Zandilar (sorry for taking it away from swtor) - what problem did you find/had with the way DA2 did the herosexuality?

[Diviciacus]

Well not exactly as FACT, Divvers! I did say 'if true', and 'could it be?'

 

It IS speculation, I know, but it would also be a very neat solution for BW, no?

 

Shh

 

It would be a neat solution, but I'm not sure if matches with reality - they pulled pretty much the whole house back in for VA work. Even if Jaesa/Akaavi/Temple haven't said anything since lvl 50.

[CharmerLeonhart]

Personally, in addition to Kaliyo I strongly suspect Risha will be a bisexual romance option in the expansion if they add that feature. People like to talk about Akaavi because she's butch, but she talks about an ex boyfriend a lot and more importantly Risha damn near gets on her knees and proposes to a lady smuggler who maxes her affection, talking about how the smuggler has become such an important part of her life and how whenever Risha tries to imagine the future the lady smuggler is always in it.

 

 

While I doubt anything will be done with old companions (seriously, I think the fact that they're so unwilling to talk about companions/romances is less hype and more "we dont want a forum riot")

 

I was under the impression that some companions were originally bisexual, and one of the higher-ups basically said "no. not doing it."

 

This is what makes me laugh when people say "you can't just change a character's sexuality! they're all straight because there's no same sex romance!" I feel like responding with "How do you know? Did you write the character?"

 

Take Catwoman from DC for example, so many people lost their s*** when she was recently confirmed as bisexual in the canon. There was so much outcry of people saying "But she's straight! Why make her bi? Typical lgbt people, having to be represented in media! You can't just retcon a character!"

 

Her writers response? "She's always been bisexual ever since I started writing the character. She just hasn't been seen to act on it in canon, until now."

 

Sorry if I got off-topic but I just feel that's a good example of why it could work/should have worked with the old companions

[SithKoriandr]

While I doubt anything will be done with old companions (seriously, I think the fact that they're so unwilling to talk about companions/romances is less hype and more "we dont want a forum riot")

 

I was under the impression that some companions were originally bisexual, and one of the higher-ups basically said "no. not doing it."

 

This is what makes me laugh when people say "you can't just change a character's sexuality! they're all straight because there's no same sex romance!" I feel like responding with "How do you know? Did you write the character?"

 

Take Catwoman from DC for example, so many people lost their s*** when she was recently confirmed as bisexual in the canon. There was so much outcry of people saying "But she's straight! Why make her bi? Typical lgbt people, having to be represented in media! You can't just retcon a character!"

 

Her writers response? "She's always been bisexual ever since I started writing the character. She just hasn't been seen to act on it in canon, until now."

 

Sorry if I got off-topic but I just feel that's a good example of why it could work/should have worked with the old companions

 

The Catwoman and many of the others are cop out answers. "She's always been...we just now show it" No, she wasn't, they're just afraid to try it with new characters and prefer to rely on old popular heroes. They do it for more than just turning characters to lgbt. Notice they have yet to say "Oh, this character has always been transgender, we just haven't shown it until now"

 

But that does work for the PCs. Nothing says a PC has to be gay and celebate. It just means they didn't flirt and get into a romance with an NPC ON SCREEN.

 

Looking at KotFE though, I don't think this will be a problem. I think any character who will beable to be a companion that's at least near human, will be either LI or Non-LI able. Maybe the Sith can have their harem

[Palar]

50/50 on the Catwoman thing. If the current writer had created the character, her "I've always written the character that way" would actually mean something... but they've been doing little nudge-winks about Selina as far back as I can remember.

[Zandilar]

Just for curiosity sake Zandilar (sorry for taking it away from swtor) - what problem did you find/had with the way DA2 did the herosexuality?

 

Mostly because of the ambiguity. The more egregious example I can think of is Anders mentioning his romantic history with Karl to male Hawkes, but not to female Hawkes.

 

But I will warn you, the last time I played DA2 was... umm... 2012. So my memory might not be the best.

[sentientomega]

People like to talk about Akaavi because she's butch, but she talks about an ex boyfriend a lot

 

They might've been an FtM, unlikely, but not totally out of the realm of possibility. Wishful thinking maybe, as I have a tiny smuggler (sawbones) who would love to take their relationship further.

 

Risha damn near gets on her knees and proposes to a lady smuggler who maxes her affection, talking about how the smuggler has become such an important part of her life and how whenever Risha tries to imagine the future the lady smuggler is always in it.

 

Something to look forward to, particularly as at least my curvy smuggler (another sawbones) has an eye for Risha.

Edited August 6, 2015 by sentientomega

[Saelinne]

Mostly because of the ambiguity. The more egregious example I can think of is Anders mentioning his romantic history with Karl to male Hawkes, but not to female Hawkes.

 

But I will warn you, the last time I played DA2 was... umm... 2012. So my memory might not be the best.

 

Fair enough, especially about Anders...

But to go back on topic....err...somewhat - I don't know if I want for them to bring back the current companions or just leave them as NPCs with lots of things to say and give us new compananions. And the reason I kinda wish for new ones is because if they are fewer they can hopefully give them more to say/ more ways we can actually...I don't know how to say it...instruct them where to go? (I would love to make Ashara more Sith (tho not to the point where she backstabs me:) ) and not all about peace as she is now....although that option is good to have too).

And if they bring back the small army of current companions I am not sure they will have the resources to do that:)

Edited August 6, 2015 by Saelinne

[Cythereal]

50/50 on the Catwoman thing. If the current writer had created the character, her "I've always written the character that way" would actually mean something... but they've been doing little nudge-winks about Selina as far back as I can remember.

 

In my opinion it's also meaningless in most cases, given that Catwoman is Batman's designated primary love interest most of the time and saying "she's actually bi" reeks of catering to young male readers. Same thing for the comics that give Harley Quinn an on-again off-again relationship with Poison Ivy: she's the Joker's love interest, and DC's not fooling anyone.

 

Something to look forward to, particularly as at least my curvy smuggler (another sawbones) has an eye for Risha.

 

It's a sweet scene that I like to imagine faded to black with Risha going "I never thought I'd ever feel attracted to a woman, but..."

 

Akavi's max affection scene, on the other hand, ends in her going "Nothing will ever bring my clan back, but this? This is kinda close."

Edited August 6, 2015 by Cythereal

[Zandilar]

In my opinion it's also meaningless in most cases, given that Catwoman is Batman's designated primary love interest most of the time and saying "she's actually bi" reeks of catering to young male readers. Same thing for the comics that give Harley Quinn an on-again off-again relationship with Poison Ivy: she's the Joker's love interest, and DC's not fooling anyone.

 

I don't know, the Harley/Ivy thing has been going on for quite some time, and I have a feeling that she's not been Joker's "main squeeze" for quite some time too. I'd really be happy if they permanently broke Harley and Joker up, tbqh, regardless of whether Harley and Ivy were on or off.

 

As for Catwoman, meh. Who knows what DC's going to do in the next incarnation of their universe. I was alarmed to realise I'm down to... uh... No DC comics on my pull list at the moment (well, technically there's Batman and Batman Detective, but those two are my partner's choices). I'm not sure where all my lady led titles went, but they appear to have vanished into the inter-reboot realm. (Well the ones I was collecting anyway, Catwoman wasn't one, she'd been culled off my list ages ago because I was having trouble keeping up with my reading, and not even her coming out as bi tempted me to pick it back up, which is really saying something.)

 

It's a sweet scene that I like to imagine faded to black with Risha going "I never thought I'd ever feel attracted to a woman, but..."

 

Akavi's max affection scene, on the other hand, ends in her going "Nothing will ever bring my clan back, but this? This is kinda close."

 

Hmm.. time to hit the youtube to see if I can find the Fem!Smuggler/Risha friendship arc, it's been such a long dang time since my Smuggler maxed her affection with Risha, I can hardly remember it.

[leviathanmirror]

Akavi's max affection scene, on the other hand, ends in her going "Nothing will ever bring my clan back, but this? This is kinda close."

 

That's strange. Akaavi's last words to both my female smugglers were, "When I joined your crew, I told you that I would never serve another's interests again. I could not trust anyone's purpose to suit my own. I was wrong. The longer I stay, the more loyalty I feel. There is nothing in my lifetime that could make me leave your side."

 

Edit: And by strange I mean I'm wondering if I'm not getting a conversation with her?

Edited August 6, 2015 by leviathanmirror

[SithKoriandr]

I don't know, the Harley/Ivy thing has been going on for quite some time, and I have a feeling that she's not been Joker's "main squeeze" for quite some time too. I'd really be happy if they permanently broke Harley and Joker up, tbqh, regardless of whether Harley and Ivy were on or off.

 

As for Catwoman, meh. Who knows what DC's going to do in the next incarnation of their universe. I was alarmed to realise I'm down to... uh... No DC comics on my pull list at the moment (well, technically there's Batman and Batman Detective, but those two are my partner's choices). I'm not sure where all my lady led titles went, but they appear to have vanished into the inter-reboot realm. (Well the ones I was collecting anyway, Catwoman wasn't one, she'd been culled off my list ages ago because I was having trouble keeping up with my reading, and not even her coming out as bi tempted me to pick it back up, which is really saying something.)

 

 

 

Hmm.. time to hit the youtube to see if I can find the Fem!Smuggler/Risha friendship arc, it's been such a long dang time since my Smuggler maxed her affection with Risha, I can hardly remember it.

 

Harvey/Ivy has been young boy fans slash almost since day one. When they made them an official couple, it was total catering to young boy fans and not some since of "equality" Though, I do believe they also realized it was a good idea to move Harley away from Joker and make her, her own hero, due to her popularity, so it was a way to really cater to many people.

 

Catwoman coming out came out as feeling to be nothing more than young reader fantasy. People complain about comics being a male fantasy...well that was a male fantasy writing choice. Karma (of X-Men), Mystique (X-Men) and Batwoman never felt like they were doing it for the male fantasy (though I'm sure they've done some eye popping scenes for that audience).

 

Also, Spider-Woman/Spider-Gwen/Silk are better anyways, than Catwoman

Edited August 6, 2015 by SithKoriandr

[Quething]

Mostly because of the ambiguity. The more egregious example I can think of is Anders mentioning his romantic history with Karl to male Hawkes, but not to female Hawkes.

 

But I will warn you, the last time I played DA2 was... umm... 2012. So my memory might not be the best.

 

Gaider has explicitly said that Anders and Karl had a fling regardless of Hawke. It's just that he doesn't tell femHawke about it. He's also slept with Isabela in all universes (and you will get that banter regardless of gender) so he's a fixed bi character.

 

Anders' relationship with Hawke in general is very different between genders. I would never romance him as a woman, he's all kinds of patronizing and gross. He treats male Hawke much more equally.

 

Now, Merrill and Fenris are more in the line of Lana and Theron, with no known consensual sexual past of any kind, so you're free to draw your own conclusions per playthrough. I don't find that particularly jarring either, though. Neither is the type to talk about it, and I can't really see Theron or Lana regaling you with their sexual pasts in the middle of a fight for the galaxy either.

[BartElroy]

Harvey/Ivy has been young boy fans slash almost since day one. When they made them an official couple, it was total catering to young boy fans and not some since of "equality" Though, I do believe they also realized it was a good idea to move Harley away from Joker and make her, her own hero, due to her popularity, so it was a way to really cater to many people.

 

Catwoman coming out came out as feeling to be nothing more than young reader fantasy. People complain about comics being a male fantasy...well that was a male fantasy writing choice. Karma (of X-Men), Mystique (X-Men) and Batwoman never felt like they were doing it for the male fantasy (though I'm sure they've done some eye popping scenes for that audience).

 

Also, Spider-Woman/Spider-Gwen/Silk are better anyways, than Catwoman

 

Harley officially gave Joker the permanent boot a while back, during the "Death of the Family" storyline. As for Harley and Ivy, considering that whole thing got started on Batman the Animated Series, I doubt it started out as fanboy service.

 

I will be honest. I *hate* that they changed Harley's costume from the traditional Harlequin suit to the **** bomb outfits she wears in Arkham Asylum and the later comic books, but the Harley and Ivy thing didn't grow out of fan service. It grew up because so many people responded to the two pairing up in the cartoon, that DC included them when they brought Harley over to the comics. In short, fans pretty much demanded it.

Edited August 8, 2015 by BartElroy

[SithKoriandr]

Harley officially gave Joker the permanent boot a while back, during the "Death of the Family" storyline. As for Harley and Ivy, considering that whole thing got started on Batman the Animated Series, I doubt it started out as fanboy service.

 

I will be honest. I *hate* that they changed Harley's costume from the traditional Harlequin suit to the **** bomb outfits she wears in Arkham Asylum and the later comic books, but the Harley and Ivy thing didn't grow out of fan service. It grew up because so many people responded to the two pairing up in the cartoon, that DC included them when they brought Harley over to the comics. In short, fans pretty much demanded it.

 

Yes, the animated series had them partner up, but making them a couple was fanboy slash fic started by those episodes.

 

Agreed on the changing of the original outfit. :/

[Diviciacus]

Harley officially gave Joker the permanent boot a while back, during the "Death of the Family" storyline. As for Harley and Ivy, considering that whole thing got started on Batman the Animated Series, I doubt it started out as fanboy service.

 

I will be honest. I *hate* that they changed Harley's costume from the traditional Harlequin suit to the **** bomb outfits she wears in Arkham Asylum and the later comic books, but the Harley and Ivy thing didn't grow out of fan service. It grew up because so many people responded to the two pairing up in the cartoon, that DC included them when they brought Harley over to the comics. In short, fans pretty much demanded it.

 

Just because they make the show doesn't mean they're not fanboys

 

I do think the outfits of most superheroes DO need updating, but comic book-types are the only slice of geekdom worse than gamers for a reputation of sexism and resistance to change. Remember the nerd-rage a few years ago when they had a character redesign for Wonder Woman to wear pants and a jacket? Fans shat so many bricks they scrapped it. And now in the upcoming Batman vs. Superman movie, she's pretty much just eye candy wearing a corset and miniskirt. GGWP, internet. This is why we can't have nice things.

 

I do agree the Harley Quinn one was completely gratuitous... apparently in comic-writers' minds, crazy woman = ****ty woman. GGWP, DC. This is why we can't have nice things. But that being said, it also does look a lot better than the stupid unitard she wore before that. I just don't think booty shorts/form fitting leather pants and a corset that's falling apart are really the best substitute.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Diviciacus

[Coist]

This whole controversy about SGR has surprised me greatly. I don't think it should be a big issue. RPGs (yes, even MMOs) are supposed to provide players with flexibility and choice when creating their characters and conducting their personal narrative, and these romance options provide just that. The world is filled with all kinds of people: heterosexual, gay, lesbian, bisexual, transexual, and all of these groups (although some intolerant people may claim otherwise) play videogames and would want to express their own identity in the virtual world, or in some cases, just try something different. For instance, I'm a heterosexual male but I happily played a lesbian Shepard in ME because it provides for a compelling narrative and moral twist. People who are taking offense with this decision by BioWare should be reminded it's just an option provided to everyone, but absolutely no one is forced to play a gay character if he/she is not willing to. Is it absolutely necessary for the game? Of course not. Is it a nice role-playing choice for a portion of the game's fanbase? Absolutely. People should be a little bit more tolerant and respect every SWTOR player.

 

I dont even have to read anything else that has been post. I agree totaly with what you say here.

I am gay. For me its not a must but it would be fun to choose something different sometimes. But like you say its not necessary but it is a nice twist to the role-playing part of the game.

[sentientomega]

Why should straight be treated any differently from LGBT? If LGBT isn't a must, then neither is straight. Or are we suddenly to believe that because our category of romantic/sexual relationship isn't as prevalent, it should be viewed as less than another?

 

You wouldn't call straight storylines a "twist", and let's not forget that in a fictional universe no-one could give two ***** about who goes with whom.

Edited August 8, 2015 by sentientomega

[SithKoriandr]

Just because they make the show doesn't mean they're not fanboys

 

I do think the outfits of most superheroes DO need updating, but comic book-types are the only slice of geekdom worse than gamers for a reputation of sexism and resistance to change. Remember the nerd-rage a few years ago when they had a character redesign for Wonder Woman to wear pants and a jacket? Fans shat so many bricks they scrapped it. And now in the upcoming Batman vs. Superman movie, she's pretty much just eye candy wearing a corset and miniskirt. GGWP, internet. This is why we can't have nice things.

 

I do agree the Harley Quinn one was completely gratuitous... apparently in comic-writers' minds, crazy woman = ****ty woman. GGWP, DC. This is why we can't have nice things. But that being said, it also does look a lot better than the stupid unitard she wore before that. I just don't think booty shorts/form fitting leather pants and a corset that's falling apart are really the best substitute.

 

Actually, the character was written as loving her outfit. The change was because of people who didn't read the comic. People wanting it changed because they don't care for a leotard, is saying she can't decide for herself what to wear.

 

Also, look back. That costume change that people said would "get them to read it" never got them to read it Her sales didn't all of a sudden go up.

 

Though, as much as I was against WW's costume change, I was also against Harley's and I was also against changing Han to shoot second

[Cythereal]

Still, same-sex romances can't come fast enough. I'm working on the rest of my lady smugger's crew affection, and despite turning him down every single time my smuggler still gets flirt prompts with Corso at 8k affection.

[sentientomega]

That's because they think persistence is the key, which makes you wonder how many sexual harassment laws the Republic has on the books, or rather, holobooks.

 

But then let is not forget, Corso is pretty much Dukes of Hazzard meets Star Wars.

 

Are all the options you're picking to reject Corso's advances typically number 3s?

 

That was the option that youtube vid showed when the female warrior said "Wait, why no women?" to Vette's sister, when Vette responded with that which made no sense for her to say.

 

And, rejection of Doc comes by way of the number 3 option, too.

 

Option 3, is typically, the option that you hope no-one picks. It's the nuclear trigger of conversation options, usually.

Edited August 8, 2015 by sentientomega

[Cythereal]

That's because they think persistence is the key, which makes you wonder how many sexual harassment laws the Republic has on the books, or rather, holobooks.

 

But then let is not forget, Corso is pretty much Dukes of Hazzard meets Star Wars.

 

Are all the options you're picking to reject Corso's advances typically number 3s?

 

That was the option that youtube vid showed when the female warrior said "Wait, why no women?" to Vette's sister, when Vette responded with that which made no sense for her to say.

 

And, rejection of Doc comes by way of the number 3 option, too.

 

Option 3, is typically, the option that you hope no-one picks. It's the nuclear trigger of conversation options, usually.

 

Yep, Corso's just standing out as very, very persistent about it. Doc is almost as bad about "Are you SURE you don't want to romance this guy?" Even Torian ended in "[flirt]" or "Screw off, you idiot loser."

 

Some of the men take rejection gracefully, but Corso's gives me Nice Guy creeps. Going to dump him off without hesitation in the expansion if I can.