PLEASE add a 800 expertise minimum in 50s PvP.

[Merras]

I agree with the people who says expertise should be removed completely from SWTOR. This stat is one of the biggest fails of the game. Make available the same gear to PvP and PvE people, make a new bracket to the best geared people and problem solved.

[Arkerus]

Yes, because in PvE you are fighting other players in the instance and not attacking NPC Bosses, working as a team to progress to the next portion of the instance. Removing stats from gear for PvE like you say makes the NPC's feel like they are not being treated unfairly. This is why removing gear stats from PvE makes everyone on both sides happy. NPC's will no longer complain about handicaps.

/sarcasm.

 

I know you feel wronged somehow. But it is the only way to PvP right. It's the way it was done long before SWTOR or WoW. Everyone enjoyed themselves. No one felt like they were inadequate against another in a one on one. They would queue again and again, and not feel apprehensive about doing so. Because practice makes perfect. Not gear. Trust me. Adding handicaps (gear stats/Expertise) only creates unwanted borders. PvP Progression needs to take a different path, and not follow PvE's way.

 

Lol. I wasn't aware there was a right and a wrong way. There are just ways of creating and maintaining the experience in an MMO.

 

The only reason PvE players support removal of PvP expertise is so they can waltz into WZs and stomp on people. And yes, people felt inadequate. browse old WoW forums: PvE players were stomping all over PvP players because PvE gear was vastly superior. The way it was done was not right and people truly felt ripped off because they didn't run raids but they had no rewards except a crappy blue set of terrible gear.

 

 

NOW if you claim you simply want PvP to not be stat related then what's the difference if PvE became non stat related? They could just give you a nominal set of stats in each instance (easy mode, HM, NIM) and then you can get a group of buddies to try and beat it.

 

 

There is no difference. You either accept that PvP and PvE have different types of gear OR you accept a system where the game isn't gear based. Which one do you want? And no, you can't say PvP should not give gear rewards while PvE does because then you are just making yourself special.

 

And in case you forgot, people can use WZ gear very effectively in HM FPs and some operations. If you remove gear from PvP then a large portion of the population can't run PvE.

 

So again, you either accept reality that PvP and PvE have different progression sets, or you take ALL stat gear out of the game and play horizontally.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Arkerus

[DarthFamine]

I will subscribe to that when I can go into NM mode Ops in my EWH gear. The argument for removing expertise is so the PvE players can jump into PvP without needing to have PvP gear, and still be able to roflstomp people in their PvE gear.

 

Again, PvP gear is EASY to acquire. After a week of PvP on a fresh level 50 I made, I was almost entirely set up in WH gear. And yes, during that time I got smashed fast and smashed hard. But it sure as hell didn't take long to get gear to where I can now not only survive, but I can dish it out now too.

 

I think you should be able to go into ops in EWH. It's ridiculous that you have to change gear from one to the other.

To flip that it makes no sense that I can use DG gear to down a 60ft tall tentacle monster but still can't hit the guy next to me in it.

 

As for the ease of getting the gear simply restore valor rank requirements, should be a decent balance.

[Briljin]

How about everyone has set stats? So the playing field is always even. Then you use comms to buy unique gear.

 

And we can apply the same logic to PvE content as well right? After all we want the playing field to always been even...

[chaindramon]

A minimum expertise value doesn't necessarily make sense. I heal in my min-maxed, all 63 PVE gear on my scoundrel, and I usually heal more than any other healer in the match. Yes, I take more damage due to my lack of expertise, but I also heal more than a min-maxed war hero. To add to that, I tank in my augmented, min-maxed PVE tank set occasionally in PVP, and that also does me fine. The issue isn't with xp, it's with the players. My PVE geared scoundrel can thrash half the people he plays against, who are usually in PVP gear, while healing half a million easy.

[jgoldsack]

As for the ease of getting the gear simply restore valor rank requirements, should be a decent balance.

 

I wish they had done that. Make expertise a flat equal value across all PvP gear, and simply left in Centurion, Champion, Battlemaster, War Hero, Elite War Hero gear, all tied to needing to have a certain Valor level to acquire the next tier of gear.

[Ceasaigh]

Dude, you're going to roflstomp a player in Recruit, too.

 

If you think that that player in Recruit is going to do better than a player in optimized 61/63 gear, you're confused.

 

Nobody is saying don't bring PvP gear to a match. But if you're just starting, and you have a choice between Recruit or 61/63 PvE gear (as a gateway to getting WH/EWH) Recruit is going to get you killed faster.

 

If you don't believe it, put on Recruit and try dueling someone in your spec wearing end-game PvE gear. You're going to get smashed to bitty bits.

 

Yes I see your point but 800 expertise (what you get with Recruit Gear) is far better that 0 expertise you get with 61/63 PvE gear.

 

Expertise trumps all in SWTOR War Zones. Until they day it does not give you a damage bonus and a DAMAGE reduction against players it will be THE stat to have.

 

The other issue really is not the damage output but the ability to do damage against someone wearing expertise gear. I can always tell the players that have low or no expertise, I liken it to being swatted with a fly swatter or being shot with a Nerf gun. They just don't do enough damage to me to make me worry about them. Then they get Smashed or Master Strike for 7K and you know they have low to no expertise.

 

Expertise right now is the magical stat for SWTOR. With it you can kill players and reduce the damage you take. With out you will get smeared into paste. Some expertise is better than none at all. Use the recruit gear mix and match if you have to but until you get around 1200+ expertise expect to get killed quickly.

[OrionSol]

I use Campaign Armorings and also put war hero mods/enhancements in my gear so I run with about 500 expertise...

 

Usually I do about 500-700k heals, and rank number 1.

 

What was your point again?

[Tamanous]

So when in hell is this so called expertise normalization happening where all pvp gear will have the same expertise?

 

I've already vocalized my disdain for any sort of gear race in instanced "sport" pvp but removing the expertise race seems like a hell of a step forward.

[Khevar]

Yes I see your point but 800 expertise (what you get with Recruit Gear) is far better that 0 expertise you get with 61/63 PvE gear.

 

Expertise trumps all in SWTOR War Zones. Until they day it does not give you a damage bonus and a DAMAGE reduction against players it will be THE stat to have.

 

The other issue really is not the damage output but the ability to do damage against someone wearing expertise gear. I can always tell the players that have low or no expertise, I liken it to being swatted with a fly swatter or being shot with a Nerf gun. They just don't do enough damage to me to make me worry about them. Then they get Smashed or Master Strike for 7K and you know they have low to no expertise.

 

Expertise right now is the magical stat for SWTOR. With it you can kill players and reduce the damage you take. With out you will get smeared into paste. Some expertise is better than none at all. Use the recruit gear mix and match if you have to but until you get around 1200+ expertise expect to get killed quickly.

You are half right.

 

But that 800 expertise applied to garbage gear doesn't outweigh 0 expertise on high-end gear.

 

Let's take damage being dealt. Full Recruit gear MK-2 has about 944 expertise, giving a 19% damage boost. Primary damage is 695-960 . Add 19% against PvP players to that and you get 828-1104. Let's say you're fighting against an Elite War Hero player with 1396 expertise, with a 20% damage reduction. Primary damage goes down to 662-883.

 

Wet noodle.

 

Yet high-end PvE gear gives you a base of 1097-1400. Attack that same EWH player (20% PvP damage reduction) and it goes to 877-1129.

 

Sure, it may be wet noodle, but it's better than Recruit.

 

That's my point.

 

And as I've said, if you don't believe the math, try a duel. One player in Recruit, the other in 61/63 PvE. Same A/C, same build. Pick a simple rotation for each side to take skill out of the equation. The Recruit player will be toast.

 

Edit: Note that I've also done that same duel but against a WH-geared player. It should be NO SURPRISE that the WH player wiped the floor with me. My point isn't that you shouldn't wear PvP gear. My point is that Recruit is so garbage, that if you happen to have 61/63 PvE gear, it's viable as a stepping-stone for WH/EWH.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Khevar

[Asunasan]

Just revert the daily to needing wins rather than being able to lose your way through it. It would suck for a little bit but then people would start playing to win again out of necessity and the level of play in regular wzs would go up. Hell we might even get less complains about premades after the pugs started playing to win.

 

I know I know you are all going to say that is a terrible idea, but remember back on the origin servers when you could count on your pugs to actually do things? They don't have to win the 1v1, but they do have to call inc, not get ninja capped, not give up and farm defender medals 1/3rd of the way into the wz. They would get the expertise gear because they would want the wins and if they were on a losing streak they would look that much harder for an edge to get their dailies done, in this case expertise gear.

[Arkerus]

So when in hell is this so called expertise normalization happening where all pvp gear will have the same expertise?

 

I've already vocalized my disdain for any sort of gear race in instanced "sport" pvp but removing the expertise race seems like a hell of a step forward.

 

It already did. As far as I know, recruit sets have over 1000 exp on them now. EH and EWH have slightly more.

[DarthOvertone]

As long as you contribute you could play naked for all I care. I see plenty of geared people who don't have a clue.

 

No doubt. For a great many peeps I see in WZs, all the gear in the world won't help them. So I honestly could care less what they are wearing. They will need to be carried anyway.

 

As long as everybody fights and nobody quits, I'm a happy camper...win or lose.

[jgoldsack]

Just revert the daily to needing wins rather than being able to lose your way through it. It would suck for a little bit but then people would start playing to win again out of necessity and the level of play in regular wzs would go up. Hell we might even get less complains about premades after the pugs started playing to win.

 

I know I know you are all going to say that is a terrible idea, but remember back on the origin servers when you could count on your pugs to actually do things? They don't have to win the 1v1, but they do have to call inc, not get ninja capped, not give up and farm defender medals 1/3rd of the way into the wz. They would get the expertise gear because they would want the wins and if they were on a losing streak they would look that much harder for an edge to get their dailies done, in this case expertise gear.

 

I also remember taking 5 hours to get my daily done because my pugs were so bad I could not get a win.

 

There is a reason they made the daily matches played.

[Smashbrother]

Black hole or higher is definitely better than recruit gear.

[criminalheretic]

How about then you can't queue for fp's or do any ops while having more then 200 expertise. I'm sick of pvpers saying their pvp gear is as good or better then then lessor level pve gear. If your to lazy to gear pve gear you shouldn't be able to queue for pve stuff....

 

However on another note when you compare full recruit lets say vs full black hole if checked the BH gear would probably come out ahead. Yes expertise lowers damage take but armor on BH gear is a lot more. expertise increases healing done but so does pve gear thats a higher level. More damage done in black hole vs lower end gear also.

 

However people need to realize this is NOT as much as you want it a PvP game. Its a PvE game and PvP is just a small side game as much as you may love it. PvE is the name of the game. PvP will never ever be a major focus of any sort in sw:tor. If your all about PvP best to find a game designed around that but swtor simply is not that.

 

Lastly the better fix would be to queue 50 pvp through a expertise / gear check. If your in recruit your stuck with those in recruit - 2/3 WH. If your in full WH its WH-EWH. However would need to once queued lock whatever gear you currently have on and not allow it to be changed until drop the queue or finished with the WZ. This would be to prevent people from queueing in recruit gear just to change to EWH later just so they slaughter all.

 

Yeah except my EWH gear actually IS better than Columi... I'm not too lazy to grind out some Columi gear, what do you think my companions are wearing?

[L-RANDLE]

A main stat minimum should suffice if you are not carrying any EXP.

 

1500 Main with no EXP is about recruit level (and will have better stat allocation).

[Masarko]

Well depends entirely on the person's gear, someone with full dread guard/campaign(0 EXP) will shred a guy in full recruit(800exp).

So when it come to this case, are you gonna force a guy to wear inferior gear just for the sake of having "800 EXP"?

 

Also please keep in mind I've done my fair share of min-maxing of PVP gear so don't say I'm making excuses for people with PVE gear.

 

Edit : Alot of PVP'ers see expertise as a main stat, it is NOT. It is simply a boost made to separate PVP'ers from PVE'ers. Done badly I might add.

 

Youre all wrong, I dare you to heal a PvE geared one. go ahead, make my day

Instead of getting smashed for 9k he gets smashed for 5k

Edited January 22, 2013 by Masarko

[Khevar]

Youre all wrong, I dare you to heal a PvE geared one. go ahead, make my day

Instead of getting smashed for 9k he gets smashed for 5k

See, I've done three things:

 

1. Theorycrafting, calculating the effect of expertise, followed by

2. Actually playing in warzones with Recruit and then playing warzones in my end-game PvE gear

3. The one-on-one duel as described above

 

That guy getting smashed by 9k while wearing full Dread Guard, you're saying he would only get smashed for 5k if he put on Recruit?

 

Shenanigans. You're either misinformed, or you're comparing WH/EWH to Dread Guard, which isn't the point being made.

[Darth-Rammstein]

I use Campaign Armorings and also put war hero mods/enhancements in my gear so I run with about 500 expertise...

 

Usually I do about 500-700k heals, and rank number 1.

 

What was your point again?

 

As I told someone else with the same situation as you expertise isn't as important to a healer. You can still cast off great healing numbers with little to no expertise. You will still get owned though if you are focus targeted, a smasher would get a 7k+ crit off you with that much expertise. Anyways back on point, try playing a dps in pve gear and pulling 500-700k damage...highly unlikely. They'll probably also have the most deaths of anyone.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Darth-Rammstein

[L-RANDLE]

Youre all wrong, I dare you to heal a PvE geared one. go ahead, make my day

Instead of getting smashed for 9k he gets smashed for 5k

 

So your telling me its possible to get 56% mitigation from EXP?

 

 

 

 

[Keyran-Halcyon]

You really cant put a requirement on queuing like this, there are always ways around it. All a PVE'er would need is to wear the recruit gear while in the queue and then once in the wz they just switch back to their PVE gear. Same goes for requiring less than 200 expertise to queue for flashpoints and ops.

 

They have this same mechanic in WoW and people always get around it. In WoW there is a min item level required to queue for raids, so alot of people will inflate their item level by wearing either pvp gear or gear not even good for their spec.

 

There isn't really much that can be done

 

EDIT* I am sure people will continue to argue this but its a mute point, having a requirement won't stop these people from queuing

Edited January 22, 2013 by Keyran-Halcyon

[xorcist]

Lol. I wasn't aware there was a right and a wrong way. There are just ways of creating and maintaining the experience in an MMO.

 

The only reason PvE players support removal of PvP expertise is so they can waltz into WZs and stomp on people. And yes, people felt inadequate. browse old WoW forums: PvE players were stomping all over PvP players because PvE gear was vastly superior. The way it was done was not right and people truly felt ripped off because they didn't run raids but they had no rewards except a crappy blue set of terrible gear.

 

 

NOW if you claim you simply want PvP to not be stat related then what's the difference if PvE became non stat related? They could just give you a nominal set of stats in each instance (easy mode, HM, NIM) and then you can get a group of buddies to try and beat it.

 

 

There is no difference. You either accept that PvP and PvE have different types of gear OR you accept a system where the game isn't gear based. Which one do you want? And no, you can't say PvP should not give gear rewards while PvE does because then you are just making yourself special.

 

And in case you forgot, people can use WZ gear very effectively in HM FPs and some operations. If you remove gear from PvP then a large portion of the population can't run PvE.

 

So again, you either accept reality that PvP and PvE have different progression sets, or you take ALL stat gear out of the game and play horizontally.

 

It seems I need to explain in the long version so you understand.

 

And yes, there is a wrong way to design PvP, because there are inadequate flaws with what is there currently. Obvious ones at that. WoW PvP and any that had the same style format, came from the designs from online games such as Unreal Tournament series, and Quake Series etc. Those were first person shooter games. Fun as hell, and very entertaining to take part in. No one will deny that. Later, other gaming companies tried incorporating that style to their MMORPG projects for their own PvP. Seeing the overwhelming success it created, they figured they could somehow make it work for their own projects. The problem with that integration into MMORPG's, that has already been stated was that PvE'ers were roflstomping those who PvP exclusively. Unfair to be sure. So, enter PvP gear, with PvP progressive stats for those who do not PvE. That created another new problem. This manor of progression breeds handicaps versus other players. As such, without cause, without reason, leaves those without the proper PvP stats handicapped if you will, and for what justification? Because they were new? Sorry. Very unsatisfactory justification. Unreal never did that. Quake never did that. Yes, they needed to make changes. But the MMORPG designers made a bad call trying to incorporate their PvE progression into a PvP style format. Therefore new players must become pretty useless. Punching bags for other more advanced PvP geared players to feel special. Such is obviously not the same, when in PvE instances.

 

It never occured to everyone that if a company needs to give away a whole set of gear (another band-aid if you will) so that new players can at least enter PvP matches, there is something broken about it. Is it better than nothing? Maybe. Maybe not. It does not shake the obvious, that you know it shouldn't be that way. That is your first clue. Because PvE does not require such a thing to make it work. It's objectives are different. It's played differently than PvP. A preset Non player boss never changes his stats unless the team desires it for a challenge. That would be stupid to have in PvP, no? He always does the same mechanics at the same times and depending on your set difficulty you've chosen, that will never change.

 

Basically as I've said. Someone tried to tie in PvE progression in PvP, but never realized the implications of how it would work. "OK we'll fix this. Ok we'll fix that. Ok we'll do this. Ok we'll do that". Nothing but band-aids. What we have now, here, is not PvP the way it was meant to be, and in no way should be acceptable to pass off as true PvP. Real PvP, fun PvP came from similar online video games I previously mentioned that were erroneously copied into MMORPG's. Everyone was on equal footing and a weak talented player couldn't roflstomp a fresh new player without a good fight. They were my best experiences Versus other players online. Here, and WoW, it is the opposite. Skill is not the deciding factor. It is gear and stats. Undesirable is all I have to say about that...

 

Just because WoW took that PvP and altered it to suit their needs. Doesn't mean it's acceptable to paste those same handicaps and errors in SWTOR. Let WoW have their broken PvP if they want. We should be better than that. Above that level. Beyond that.

 

I believe you also hadn't noticed that PvE instances are Player versus Non player characters that are preset. Otherwise why would you say there is no difference. The NPC does not care how badly you roflstomp him. He doesn't feel anything. Correct? Correct. So what I fail to see, is how you don't understand the differences between PvE and PvP.

I hope you understand the differences in how it affects people playing the two styles.

 

I can easily say that PvP should not have gear stats based progression, because the two encounters are entirely different play styles in every sense of the word, as I've already explained above. It is necessary to differentiate PvE and PvP. for that reason. However, You are also talking about PvE gear and vice versa, being used in PvP matches and vice versa. I said, all gear stats. Not just Expertise. For Warzones only. Why? Because it is a match between players versus players. A fair match. Not a single 3 hour instance where its player versus a preset number of NPC Bosses and mobs that wait for you to attack first. The challenges are not at all similar. The opponents are not at all similar. The rewards should also not be at all similar. In essence, there is no handicap forced in PvE. It doesn't exist. No complaints about it.

 

There needs to be a different path for progression in PvP. Something else just as rewarding, that does not create handicaps versus other players.

 

Players are being punished because they have not played as many matches on their characters than other players have. That justification is wrong, and unfair when it is put in perspective as I just have. The PvP we have now is nothing more than a band-aid of sorts, and still very much handicaps players. We need to see real change in the PvP department to make it work for the better.

Edited January 23, 2013 by xorcist

[thesadplanet]

I completely support this and I really can't see any reason why this wouldn't be a bad idea. Having a requirement like this would mean that at the very least fresh 50's would have to go and get their recruit gear to queue up, which would eliminate the chances of anybody queueing up in leveling blues and greens which still happens frequently.

 

You can make the argument that min maxed pve gear is better than recruit gear, but this scenario only applies to a small number of people, and with war hero gear being so easy to get nowadays it would only be a temporary inconvenience.

[Darth-Rammstein]

I understand if you are a raider and rarely do wzs and your pve gear is better than the recruit and you're just queuing for acouple matches to kill time. I do however have a serious problem with the people in pve gear that have zero interest in spending their comms on pvp gear for themselves but just on gear that they can r/e for stabilizers. They should just remove the option to r/e pvp gear....tired of farmers in my matches.