Summary: PvE stuff inside of PvP areas

[MrSchmo]

So many assumptions in this thread. Instead of a 2 sided argument where not one side knows the true details, we wait for more info before people get their panties in a ruffle.

 

There is not one fact given that any PVE objective or mission is in a pvp area, or that west Ilum will even still be PVP focused.

 

Everyone is arguing for the sake of arguing when we ALL don't know the true answer. This is like a gameshow without a host telling us what the correct answer is.

[TheSeventhJedi]

That's not necessarily what will happen just what people are expecting to happen and so we have a certain level of frustration on the part of the PvE oriented players.

 

Of course, there are plenty of PvP players commenting that they are going to be doing exactly that which only fuels the debate.

Except, that is EXACTLY what happened during the HK event. After literally hours of doing everything I could to try to get that stupid vendor part, I got lucky and another guild went in to ambush the DOZENS of sith morons camping the vendor, and I was able to buy the item before being murdered.

 

Even if it doesn't happen to you, the possibility of it happening is too much. I know how to play my class. I don't PvP. Even if I did, I have a Guardian Tank - which I hear are worthless in PvP anyway. I shouldn't have to grind PvP up to the event to get new gear with new stats that MAY help me to survive, and then respec when I go into an area, just to do something for a PVE questchain. Want open world PvP? That's what PvP servers are for. If that's what you want, why oh WHY are you on a PVE server? The answer, I find, is that they're not good enough to hang with the PvP crowd, and get their jollies from ganking people who don't PvP and don't have a single expertise point.

[anstalt]

This is exactly what I'm talking about as well -- requiring people to do a HM flashpoint is also complete BS and is just as unfair as the PvP section.

 

Its this sort of logic that leads to watered down crappy MMOs which are 99% solo that people play through once and then quit.

 

You can never please everyone 100% of the time. Something is always going to seem unfair to someone, and the line in the sand is different for each individual player. So, whilst you think requiring a HM flashpoint is BS, I think it was actually a good move. Likewise, you think having PVP objectives as part of "optional" questlines is BS because you don't like PVP, whereas I think differently.

 

 

Personally, I think Bioware simply need to clarify their goals when designing new content. The HK quest was actually really good, because it required players to participate in all aspects of the game (questing, dailies, pvp, flashpoints plus leveling both imps and pubs) but this is also a bad thing because someone will inevitably dislike at least one aspect of it.

 

With 1.7, Bioware need a clear goal: is this an event for everyone that happens to be based in the pvp area? Is this the pvp revamp designed to sustain open world pvp? Is this a PvE questing area with forced pvp?

 

 

At the moment, it is unclear, hence all the negativity. My personal hope is that this is a PvP event, designed for PvPers and that the event will kick start long term sustainable open world pvp on Ilum. I can guaruntee there will be rewards in the new event that some pvers will want (like mounts, pets, cosmetic clothing) so there is guarunteed to be whining from someone, but thats just how the game works. PvPers have to raid if they want exclusive mounts and pets, PvEers have to pvp if they want the pvp pets/mounts. As long as the rewards remain either exclusive to the activity (pvp rewards for pvping etc) or completely fluff (clothing, pets etc) then we should be fine.

[Jacen_Starsolo]

Bw is givin something to PvP player, because actually the PvP is really poor. Not forcing you to have a super uber cool armor. You can avoid it. Ah troll, sorry i don't have to feed it.

 

Feeding yourself again?

 

Why would they need to put PvE content in a PvP area when they have PvP servers made for just such a thing? Now if you can answer that without trying to troll, go for it. Btw, the troll was weak with that one you tried.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Jacen_Starsolo

[mothear]

Feeding yourself again?

 

Why would they need to put PvE content in a PvP area when they have PvP servers made for just such a thing? Now if you can answer that without trying to troll, go for it. Btw, the troll was weak with that one you tried.

 

Just because it;s a click quest, kill NPC quest doesn't mean it is a PVE quest. If they happen to be in a PvP area and the rewards/reputation go towards 'PvP exclusive' content - be that mounts/ weapons/cuddly toys whatever then they are essentially PvP quests and you can choose to do them or not.

 

All PVE 'complainers' in this debate seem to be suggesting is that Illum, as a PvP area, should not exist on a PVE server which was never BW's intention. Of course you can act like it doesn't exist by never going there and your perceived problems are solved.

[Jacen_Starsolo]

Just because it;s a click quest, kill NPC quest doesn't mean it is a PVE quest. If they happen to be in a PvP area and the rewards/reputation go towards 'PvP exclusive' content - be that mounts/ weapons/cuddly toys whatever then they are essentially PvP quests and you can choose to do them or not.

 

All PVE 'complainers' in this debate seem to be suggesting is that Illum, as a PvP area, should not exist on a PVE server which was never BW's intention. Of course you can act like it doesn't exist by never going there and your perceived problems are solved.

 

Actually it does mean that. NPCs are part of the environment not players. What do you think PvP stands for? Player vs what?

 

And open world PvP exists on PvP servers and if people want that, they roll on that. If they don't, they pick PvE servers. Then there is those of us who roll on both so we can do whatever we want that time.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Jacen_Starsolo

[Quraswren]

Just because it;s a click quest, kill NPC quest doesn't mean it is a PVE quest. If they happen to be in a PvP area and the rewards/reputation go towards 'PvP exclusive' content - be that mounts/ weapons/cuddly toys whatever then they are essentially PvP quests and you can choose to do them or not.

 

Agreed.

 

However, a problem arises when you creat a large PVE content patch such as the HK quest and put in a portion that forces PVE players to go flagged for PVE just to reach an area to buy one item and then run away.

 

It's an encounter design that is not needed and since players keep seeing this happening in games. It's really starting to piss them off when content that is clearly PVE driven like the HK quest line is but BW seems to think PVE players have this deep urge to PVP.

 

Which BTW - They do not have. Thats why people are skeptical of what is in store for them.

 

If it turns out to be a PVP patch, in the old PVP area with the same forced flagging once you land and is clearly all PVP. Then most PVE players will not care since they wont go there anyway and PVP players can rejoice.

 

Just don't hide it as some PVE content and throw on PVP just for the sake of PVP like the HK series was.

 

All PVE 'complainers' in this debate seem to be suggesting is that Illum, as a PvP area, should not exist on a PVE server which was never BW's intention. Of course you can act like it doesn't exist by never going there and your perceived problems are solved.

 

It's not that is should not exist. It's just that PVE and PVP questing or content should not overlap in the ways it's being used.

 

Just thinking back to the HK quest line again. No real reason to have the PVP portion in it when any vender, anywhere in the world could have done the same thing. It added nothing to the story or the content by throwing in PVP in such a way. It was just a nuisance and made the game not fun for a large number of people. Many that dreaded doing it before it ever even happened cause most knew what it would turn into.

 

Hell, BW could have created 2 venders, one PVP and one PVE and given players a variety of what to choose to do just to keep down the drama but that didn't happen either.

 

It would be Ok though if this was like wintergrasp. It's a PVP zone for a portion but once it's captured it becomes a PVE zone for the side that captures it. That would seem to solve many problems except on servers where the sides are not close to even or poorly populated servers.

[Jacen_Starsolo]

Agreed.

 

However, a problem arises when you creat a large PVE content patch such as the HK quest and put in a portion that forces PVE players to go flagged for PVE just to reach an area to buy one item and then run away.

 

It's an encounter design that is not needed and since players keep seeing this happening in games. It's really starting to piss them off when content that is clearly PVE driven like the HK quest line is but BW seems to think PVE players have this deep urge to PVP.

 

Which BTW - They do not have. Thats why people are skeptical of what is in store for them.

 

If it turns out to be a PVP patch, in the old PVP area with the same forced flagging once you land and is clearly all PVP. Then most PVE players will not care since they wont go there anyway and PVP players can rejoice.

 

Just don't hide it as some PVE content and throw on PVP just for the sake of PVP like the HK series was.

 

 

 

It's not that is should not exist. It's just that PVE and PVP questing or content should not overlap in the ways it's being used.

 

Just thinking back to the HK quest line again. No real reason to have the PVP portion in it when any vender, anywhere in the world could have done the same thing. It added nothing to the story or the content by throwing in PVP in such a way. It was just a nuisance and made the game not fun for a large number of people. Many that dreaded doing it before it ever even happened cause most knew what it would turn into.

 

Hell, BW could have created 2 venders, one PVP and one PVE and given players a variety of what to choose to do just to keep down the drama but that didn't happen either.

 

It would be Ok though if this was like wintergrasp. It's a PVP zone for a portion but once it's captured it becomes a PVE zone for the side that captures it. That would seem to solve many problems except on servers where the sides are not close to even or poorly populated servers.

 

Yep. That HK vendor purchase made no addition to the quest line. Especially since everyone let me get a free pass each time I went into Outlaw's Den. Did BW think people would really fight over being able to buy an item? If they wanted it in a PvP area, they should have made it available if a faction held position for a set period of time then it drops into inventory. It wasn't even worth fighting over buying a part from the vendor.

[TUXs]

I have a suggestion...

 

Wait.

 

Please wait until we have more details. MOST of us PvPers don't want Ilum to simply be an area to gank PvEers - we want to incentivize PvP, not force PvP. Everyone is happier that way.

[Jacen_Starsolo]

I have a suggestion...

 

Wait.

 

Please wait until we have more details. MOST of us PvPers don't want Ilum to simply be an area to gank PvEers - we want to incentivize PvP, not force PvP. Everyone is happier that way.

 

If we didn't have the weak way it was done with HK51, I would say wait too. But waiting will probably mean BW will give us the same weak force PvP that people just ignore anyhow how dumb it's made. They need to know to do better next time.

[MiaRB]

Actually it does mean that. NPCs are part of the environment not players. What do you think PvP stands for? Player vs what?

 

And open world PvP exists on PvP servers and if people want that, they roll on that. If they don't, they pick PvE servers. Then there is those of us who roll on both so we can do whatever we want that time.

 

PVE servers also have open world areas, is common in many MMO's. is also common to have PVE objectives in open world PVP areas that PVPers can fight over... reason for it is so PVP can occur naturally instead of having exploits and kill trades( which is what happens when you get direct rewards for kills ).

 

if you are so dead set against PVP, then dont take part in the event. there will be more PVE only content added to the game( much more than PVP content ). just because there are some PVE NPCs or even PVE bosses, doesnt mean its not a PVP event that is geared for and intended for players who want some open world PVP content.

[LogicalPremise]

So the answer from PVP players is universally "if you don't like objectives in PvP areas do not participate in the quest period."

 

Please do not be surprised when your so-called 'PvP focused event' is not PvP focused and we have to tell you 'we told you so'. Also please do not be surprised when gankers come out and ruin people's time. Also do not be surprised when the 'reward' is of zero value in PvP.

 

Instead of saying "hey, let's have options on where we place this stuff so that people who want to PvP focus can do so and still win and people who want to PvE focus can do so and still win" you would rather scream "But PvE haz enuff stuffs already" when that isn't even the point of the thread. Might as well lock it then, done being trolled by people who won't bother to listen and offer up strawman arugments.

[MaximusRex]

I think it all depends on which sort of content it is in regards to. If it is a PvE-centered piece of content, with PvE-centered rewards such as a PvE questing companion pet, I'd say auto-flagging areas ought to be avoided.

 

However, if it's a PvP-centered event with PvP-centered rewards, then auto-flagging ought to be in.

 

I don't think many would disagree with you. I think the main issue is force mixing the content types in some bizarre hope that creating a bad situation for players is going to encourage them to want to participate in that activity ongoing.

 

I PvP and PvE in this game almost every time I play, but I don't think mixing them is a good idea if you want happy customers.

[Jacen_Starsolo]

PVE servers also have open world areas, is common in many MMO's. is also common to have PVE objectives in open world PVP areas that PVPers can fight over... reason for it is so PVP can occur naturally instead of having exploits and kill trades( which is what happens when you get direct rewards for kills ).

 

if you are so dead set against PVP, then dont take part in the event. there will be more PVE only content added to the game( much more than PVP content ). just because there are some PVE NPCs or even PVE bosses, doesnt mean its not a PVP event that is geared for and intended for players who want some open world PVP content.

 

Funny you mentioned exploits. This game has them or they wouldn't want us to be their exploit police as the login message said. So much for the no exploit idea.

 

What BW is hoping for is the gankfest. Wait for someone to be fighting a Boss NPC then when health is down, instant kill. That's what comes from doing this. It didn't happen with HK51 because most players saw the reason to fight wasn't worth it. Just to fight to reach a vendor to buy an item? LOL.

 

And I have same number of toons on a PvP server (Pot5) as on PvE server (Shadowlands). I don't "avoid" PvP except when I play on Shadowlands. My first server was on a PvP server but game sucked too bad that most everyone in that guild left. A friend was on Krayt Dragon so made toons there to play with him too. And KD got merged to Shadowlands.

 

So get off the "if you want to avoid PvP" crap. I do both. And depending on the mood of the moment, determines which server I log into that day.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Jacen_Starsolo

[mothear]

I think it all depends on which sort of content it is in regards to. If it is a PvE-centered piece of content, with PvE-centered rewards such as a PvE questing companion pet, I'd say auto-flagging areas ought to be avoided.

 

However, if it's a PvP-centered event with PvP-centered rewards, then auto-flagging ought to be in.

 

By this do you mean that all mounts/pets etc are PVE rewards? Surely if they are in a PvP area they are PvP rewards.

[Eric_Riot]

I was thinking, PvP vs PvE. There has got to be some kind of cool balance. The way it stands now is that you put a PvE item in a PvP area, the hope is that you pull more of the player base into a PvP environment and some of them enjoy it, increasing your PvP base.

 

Personally I think PvP consist of a very small group of people compared to PvE side. So even if 1% of the PvE’er go into the area looking for said item (for an example the HK-51 part on tat.) the PvP would get a quite a large boot to PvP. Star wars is not good on open world PvP. There really is no place to go, I mean when I first went looking for my HK part on Tat and entered the open area PvP I spent about a half hour looking around and didn’t see another soul. So obviously that is not working, and in SWTOR you can just Q up for a mini 5v5 battle (I’m not sure on the specifics I’m a PvE’er and have never done it). So people don’t even go looking for open world PvP.

 

Here’s an idea, they need to put a PvE item near, or even better above a PvP area, so that the PvE can watch the PvP without fear of being greifed/Trolled. And you can even make it a Plat forming thing, where if the PvEer would miss the jump they would be thrust into the PvP. To make the area attractive to PvPer’s (I mean more attractive then falling PvErs to greif, which in itself is fun) put a world buff control point underneath. Which ever faction control’s this little “fortress” (it can be more lore related) it gives a small buff to their whole faction. Lets say 10% less armor ware, or 5% XP buff to the whole Imp side, or better yet a PvP buff to each side as well, something everyone in the game wants for their side.(Yes I stole this idea from Lotro). That way it is hotly contested area with PvE falling from the sky.

 

Now it doesn’t have to be plat forming, it could be you run in and if you don’t get your item with in a certain amount of time you get pushed off the ledge by falling boulders or something.

 

That way everyone is happy. The PvP gets an influx on PvPer’s, a goal to achieve for their faction. PvEer’s can just sit by and watch the PvP fun. There’s nothing a PvEer could complain about, after they fall and die at the hands of the overpowered PvPer they span leave the area hit the cantina for 5 mins drop the PvP tag and go back and try again, how much different is that from just regular plat forming anyhow, we have all pounded our desk with frustration on missing that last jump on some difficult datacron plat forming crap.

 

What would be really cool is if PvEers could interact free of risk! *chuckles* Like the water rides from an amusement park, you have a group of people in the a round tube enjoying the ride and when they come around the bend spectators can put in a quarter and shoot them with a stationary powered water gun. The people in the ride are already wet and having a blast, the spectators are having a blast shooting them with a unexpected water gun. The people in the ride unaware, but not mad you get that mild surprise that makes you smile afterwards, and the people on the ride want to get out and shoot some one else. Its all in fun no one is upset. That’s what they need to add to PvP, some PvE fun! It should be something that everyone is happy about, maybe a small push for your side. The more PvE’er for one side could help the PvPer’s for their side, like a cheerleader! lol

 

There should be a PvE Water gun! That PvPer’s and maybe the other factions PvEers could attack and take down. Respwan every 30min/hour or so, something that a PvEer could do to help defend the way point. After a while I bet you would get a bunch of casual PvEr’s to dabble their feet in PvP. They have fun watching, interacting in a safe environment, and maybe the get involved in killing other players instead of the same old AI crap. They see a wall being breached and maybe they jump out of the PvE area and into the PvP area and get their feet wet, defending something. *shrugs* something they can get attached to and defend.

 

I’m no PvPer by any means when it comes to MMO’s, Zach and I can tare it up in Battlefield and we are quite good at League of Legends. But we don’t PvP in MMO’s. But I would love to toss a missile into the PvP fray if it was safe.

 

Open world PvP with the numbers that PvE can bring. They need to do something to combine the two sides. And the worst thing they can do is force a PvE to be in a PvP area against their will for end game content, or just desirable content in general. Content should NOT be locked away through some PvP avenue.

[Eric_Riot]

*bump*

[TahlRedux]

I just ran into this yesterday on Tattooine. The ONLY way to my PVE mission was straight through the PVP area there, and I am not a fan of PVP (have zero interest in it, frankly). Needless to say, I was NOT happy to be auto-flagged for PVP and searched fruitlessly for a way to "unflag" myself.

 

Fortunately, no one attacked me and I was able to complete my PVE mish and quick travel out immediately. I'm not sure if this is some lame attempt to "attract" people (!!!) to PVP, but if it is, it's totally misguided. Most of us are familiar with PVP and either like it or don't. PVE players should NEVER be forced into PVP zones. Period.

[Tamanous]

It's all pretty simple:

 

PVE objectives inside a pvp area that flags you is ... pvp content!

 

This is an mmo so any open world pvp will and should have pve within it. If no mobs, no craft nodes and no non-player objectives exist it would be nothing more than an instance.

 

The point of pve objectives in pvp flagged areas is to cause conflict. They are therefore actually pvp objectives. Pve players need to understand and get over it.

[LogicalPremise]

The point of pve objectives in pvp flagged areas is to cause conflict. They are therefore actually pvp objectives. Pve players need to understand and get over it.

 

Regardless of whether or not PvE players want said PvP?

 

Again. I'm going to laugh my butt off when this turns out to be a scaled-up version of what we saw in the outlaw's den. If you want to get PvE only people to PvP then you have to reward them for doing so. Subjecting them to open PVP when they are unlikely to be geared or prepared for it isn't a reward. If the answer is "then don't do it" then the entire content will be mostly ignored.

[Fantazm]

I just ran into this yesterday on Tattooine. The ONLY way to my PVE mission was straight through the PVP area there, and I am not a fan of PVP (have zero interest in it, frankly). Needless to say, I was NOT happy to be auto-flagged for PVP and searched fruitlessly for a way to "unflag" myself.

 

Fortunately, no one attacked me and I was able to complete my PVE mish and quick travel out immediately. I'm not sure if this is some lame attempt to "attract" people (!!!) to PVP, but if it is, it's totally misguided. Most of us are familiar with PVP and either like it or don't. PVE players should NEVER be forced into PVP zones. Period.

 

I think I might know what you're on about there and I thought the same.

 

However I found there's another tunnel that leads from the Dune Sea back into Jundland. It's not on the main map though, only shows up when you're close to it.

[Chlomamf]

I was lucky enough to successfully get the HK part without getting ganked at all. There was a Shadow that came along who was also there for the HK part but we just ignored each other.

 

And I can remember helping a guy out who wanted to know where the HK part was so him and his friend could get it. I showed him and we started to leave, then I saw his friend come along. They where in their level 40s (I think) so I think his friend freaked out when he saw a level 50 coming towards him. Little did he know it was me and I was heading for the exit, so he activated his stealth to hide. I whispered the guy I helped out to tell his friend that I wasn't going to attack him.

[mothear]

Regardless of whether or not PvE players want said PvP?

 

Again. I'm going to laugh my butt off when this turns out to be a scaled-up version of what we saw in the outlaw's den. If you want to get PvE only people to PvP then you have to reward them for doing so. Subjecting them to open PVP when they are unlikely to be geared or prepared for it isn't a reward. If the answer is "then don't do it" then the entire content will be mostly ignored.

Probably not on PvP servers, but you may be right. What I think will happen if it is the same as old Ilum is that both sides will mainly ignore each other.

 

I hope it's different this time though.

[TahlRedux]

It's all pretty simple:

 

PVE objectives inside a pvp area that flags you is ... pvp content!

 

This is an mmo so any open world pvp will and should have pve within it. If no mobs, no craft nodes and no non-player objectives exist it would be nothing more than an instance.

 

The point of pve objectives in pvp flagged areas is to cause conflict. They are therefore actually pvp objectives. Pve players need to understand and get over it.

 

Oh! So PVE players should just "get over" the fact that their PVE mishes take them to PVP areas. . . . wait, what? That makes zero sense. The point of placing a PVE mish in the middle of a PVP zone is to create conflict? To provide unsuspecting, unwilling fodder for PVP losers (I say "losers" because it's usually lvl 50s hanging out on Tat for unsuspecting lvl 20-ranges to show up)? Maybe so, but that's lame. If PVP is so lacking in this game that non-PVPers have to be lured into PVP areas to be hunted fodder for PVPers. . . hmph! Who is the joke on then?

 

I'm a casual PVE player, do you really think I pose any challenge to a PVPer? Nope. So all that makes me understand is that PVP is dead.

[Miggzy]

I was lucky enough to successfully get the HK part without getting ganked at all. There was a Shadow that came along who was also there for the HK part but we just ignored each other.

 

This was actually the experience of most people, at least on the Harbinger. Dont know how this one is gonna turn out of course but in regards to the HK part, the vocal minority on the forums was making it seem wayyy worse then it was in game.