OP-owertechs

[ArchangelLBC]

@ ArchangelLBC

 

First off thanks to you as well for keeping up the actual useful conversation, rather than the non-useful.

 

I pretty much agree with you on everything there, but I do still have to maintain that for its burst phase, the Infil hybrid in question, 0/27/14, actually requires absolutely zero setup. I always start straight off with FiB, into Breach, into Project. That is my core burst phase, as Shadow Strike is proc-dependent, and everything else is either situational, or filler. That's it really. 3 instant abilities, in 3 GCD's, none of them at all dependent on any of the others. I find that Breach is a sufficiently powerful attack even without stacks of Exit Strategy. I do not spec into the reduced cd for Breach, so over the 15 sec cd, I usually build up 1-3 stacks. This leads to about a 4k crit, which slowly grows closer to 5k with more stacks. I still find it plenty worthwhile. I do wish we had some crit or mainstat or something in our trees to make gearing a little fairer, PT's get 15% crit to RS, their only real non-tech attack, and then if they spec 4/6/31 (which I do) they get another 6% tech crit, and a further 6% elemental crit on top of everything. I can stack full power gear on my PT and still have basically the same or more crit than my shadow

 

And I tend to avoid choosing random PT's because I find that so many are bad FOTM chasers flocking to the 4 button I win class

 

And thank God for the huge force regen we get from blackout during that opening am I right? And yeah that ease of gearing is ultimately what I think helps push it over the edge for PTs, at least on average. Your opening is not setup dependent but it does still depend on crits and you're just not getting help from anywhere with force crits if you aren't using Potency, and that leads to less power blah blah you're smart enough to know where this goes =)

It just means that the shadow in question has to have the almost right exact mix of stats to milk the most from their gear and that's more grinding etc.

 

After that initial 3 GCD burst phase our follow up is going to take us in close, and as you said what follows up is either filler, situational, or proc dependent, and that's the other thing that's the problem. If that opening burst hit hard enough, and we got the shadowstrike proc, and the shadowstrike crits (hooray for 9% extra crit on SS if any of those force attacks crit), and then we can finish them off with spinning strike, which also crits, our Burst is incredible, and we potentially just put someone in the dirt in 5-6 GCDs. If we whiff on the crits it kinda falls flat. With VG technically you need a 3 GCD setup. SG > AP > Set target on fire. 2 of those can be done from greater than 10m if they decide what the hell and use Hammershot to proc plasma cell. They might also use a GCD harpooning the target to them to yank them away from their support. But then it's nothing but pain and death for the next 3 GCDs as those heavy hitters come in, compounded by the delayed damage from SG and AP. It's one hell of a punchline, especially if their healers didn't start reacting as soon as the flashing christmas lights showed up.

 

But to be perfectly honest you're right. If we're talking ranked teams we're going to choose people we know don't suck regardless, I guess I just feel it's easier to not suck at VG, or to be mediocre and still get really good damage from it anyway.

 

I think Cycao's problem is that in the commonly understood current meta, shadows are not big burst DPS classes. This is because they've carved out that niche as a node guard/harasser with super utility, and a powerful niche it is lets not kid ourselves, but it means you don't have those roving bands of FotM Shadows running around DPSing people. That being said my guild has been starting to use shadow DPS in ranked, to varying success (my main set was pretty much exclusively power because of the Tank Hybrid's auto crits, so I still have some gear min/maxing to do, what do you guys find is the ideal crit chance for 0/27/14? 30% Buffed? 35% Buffed?)

 

VGs are a known quantity, and they're a quantity that's known to put on quite a lot of hurting. I think time will tell and we'll see the idea start to gain some traction. It's just you can't bring a shadow DPS till you've brought that shadow guard. Even if the burst is ultimately a tad weaker on average the tactical advantage of stealth DPS with high mobility is an argument all by itself.

[cashogy_reborn]

I know this, I was making the statement towards VG'S / PT'S that don't taunt. I've seen them do those numbers or around them with no taunts.... An Assault merc putting up those numbers isn't shocking.

 

oh, the other guy that started saying that seemed to think it was a powertech putting up that damage, and called me bad. lol

[UGLYMRJ]

This

its not catering to 5% of your player base; its balancing the game around the greatest potential of each class.

And this...

the game should be balanced for the highest level of play.

 

And from this stand point powertechs are fine.

 

If you don't balance the game from each characters full potential than you end up in a situation where, sure... in most cases all of the AC's are performing on par for the most part until a skilled player turns a specific AC into a wrecking ball.

 

True balance will only come from the potential of each class... not what thousands of key board turning clickers are doing on average with it.

[cultivatedmass]

Obviously the OP was not playing when Carolina Parakeet was viable. The OP was also not playing when PPA had no internal CD. The OP was, again, not playing when a PT could use IM > TD > RS from 30m, doing over half the target's HP in damage before even closing in to 10m just to proc PPA and get another RS in immediately afterwards.

 

Sorry to all the haters - If you're pressing any less than 5 buttons regularly to do damage, as a PT Pyro, you're a bad and doing it completely wrong. I know you non-PT Pyro bads like to pretend we only need to press 3, maybe 4, but it's way more involved than that. Our objective damage is 99% single-target, which can easily be out-shone by a competent Lethality Sniper. And that's just the damage dealing side of it...A good PT Pyro also needs to worry about survivability and all the intrinsic complexities involved with actually staying alive in this glass-cannon spec.

 

Sure, PT's are Heavy Armor and get ~32% DmgReduc...But that's ONLY for Kinetic and Energy damage types. Other than than, PT's only get a piddly 10sec self-HOT and a 25% OA DmgReduc for 12 seconds. Our pull (Grapple) CANNOT be used if our target is resolved out, and we only get 6.5 seconds of total available CC time, which pales in comparison to almost every other AC.

 

A really good player can use all these tools and rock the house, but nearly every player in an MMO is not going to be on that level. Stop crying just because some noob can deliver a 4.5k attack once every few seconds. If you're dying to non-optimized scrubs playing a glass-cannon, maybe you should reanalyze your own personal skill level instead of trying to place the blame elsewhere.

 

this just shows how broken they were. it doesn't matter how many nerfs a class gets if they're still too strong after them all. the internal cd was a massive nerf and it hardly did anything to them. they need to be adjusted even more.

Edited January 30, 2013 by cultivatedmass

[EatenByDistance]

Skimming over the rest of your little piece because a) rankorssgs debated most of your points well and b) you misidentify my blunt posting style as elitism, but I refuse to leave this idea be:

 

Also the fact that your spec is superior in live play to others is precisely due to the fact that its simpler than other specs which require much more attention.

 

This is completely and utterly wrong and contradicts my entire point of simplicity being a nonfactor in rated play. My spec doesn't excel because it is easier to play than others. There isn't some big secret to it. It's good because it has high burst constricted by low-cd abilities instead of force, adaptive range and adequate survivability.

 

If your concept of my spec was true, then in theory full Madness or Mad Maul would be superior because they are mechanically more intricate. But that's not at all the case, they fail to perform to the expected standard for a variety of other reasons, none of which are due to their "difficulty of use".

 

Sorry if you think I'm being an elitist. If I think I'm right or you're wrong I'm not going to sugercoat it, get over it if you expect me to respond to you. And as for your rage at me "shrugging you off", I don't feel the need to validate myself or my posts to someone who thinks pt burst is both "unstoppable" and "instant". On that note, the only instant pt ability that matters is rail shot, ED and TD tick before doing damage and you have plenty of time to respond to it via defensive CDs, calling for guard, or whatever.

 

I never said I was the best assassin, I never said I was the best at anything. But I know what I'm talking about when it comes to PvP in this game, and to the uninitiated accurate self-assessment can look like vanity to other people. Again, sorry if it offends you but if you can get over having your feelings hurt you might find that I'm usually right about what I'm talking about.

[JustinxDuff]

Rateds are kind if irrelevant, they should not be used to balance PvP. Edited January 30, 2013 by JustinxDuff

[oslek]

All nerf threads boil down to the same thing: I HATE LOSING! PLEASE NERF EVERY CLASS THAT BEATS ME!!!

 

Seriously, either learn to accept that you can't beat every class in the game or stop PVPing.

[CharterMonkKent]

Rateds are kind if irrelevant, they should not be used to balance PvP.

 

This is one of the most realistic posts in this entire thread. This game is about dollars and cents, balance (when profit minded) = keeping the player base populated and paying.

 

Fact, balance in this game is profit minded. Balance does not mean 8 v 8 of the best players with the best gear, best talent, best coordination, etc. I know a lot of players want it to be that (myself included) but no one should fool themselves (again, myself included). We can say the game "should be this or that" all we want, but it's not and will never be. But it's still fun.

 

We need to remind ourselves that MMOs are for the masses not for the few. Because of this it will remain a simple game. Because of this the game will continue on a nerf/buff cycle driven by complaints. Because of this people will complain about certain classes or abilities regardless if they have been nerfed before. Because of this the game gets boring for certain types.

 

Because of this.... pvp is an extremely small aspect of this game.

[cashogy_reborn]

This is one of the most realistic posts in this entire thread. This game is about dollars and cents, balance (when profit minded) = keeping the player base populated and paying.

 

Fact, balance in this game is profit minded. Balance does not mean 8 v 8 of the best players with the best gear, best talent, best coordination, etc. I know a lot of players want it to be that (myself included) but no one should fool themselves (again, myself included). We can say the game "should be this or that" all we want, but it's not and will never be. But it's still fun.

 

We need to remind ourselves that MMOs are for the masses not for the few. Because of this it will remain a simple game. Because of this the game will continue on a nerf/buff cycle driven by complaints. Because of this people will complain about certain classes or abilities regardless if they have been nerfed before. Because of this the game gets boring for certain types.

 

Because of this.... pvp is an extremely small aspect of this game.

 

if you want to make money, you need to keep subscribers.

if you want to keep subscribers, they need to enjoy playing the game.

for players to enjoy playing the game, combat needs to be balanced.

 

crazy how logic works.

 

 

and you can have a "simple game" and have balance. why do people have to get all dramatic and act like balanced PvP requires a complete reformation of game mechanics? it certainly does not.

 

and PvP being a "small part of the game" is laughable at this point. the devs have continued to acknowledge since the start of this game that a larger part of the community participates in PvP than in Operations. they say in interviews that they are adapting for that reality, yet their actions speak otherwise.

 

this game may have been designed with a PvE focus, but even a deaf dumb blind kid could understand that this game would benefit massively from some PvP lovin'

[UGLYMRJ]

Rateds are kind if irrelevant, they should not be used to balance PvP.

 

Gotta disagree with you guys here.... you can talk dollars and cents and I understand it from a business perspective completely...

 

However, you simply can't create balance on average performance... it will do nothing but create a further imbalance.

 

To simplify it as much as possible, if they were to balance based on maximum performance capable of the class it then becomes the players fault for not not meeting that potential.

 

Balancing it on performance by average players... which on average are below average... creates a never ending tweaking based on FOTM's performance. For example... say there was a class that was far tougher to play than any other class. (none are very difficult in this game IMO). With the theory of balancing around average performance in regular war zones, that difficult class would be buffed to meet over all numbers that the other classes are producing BECAUSE MOST PLAYERS WOULD UNDER PERFORM WITH IT.

 

So, what would you think happens when that class gets in the hands of a competent player?

 

Normally I try to stay open minded to other people's perspectives but balancing classes on a top tier level of game play is something that I feel should go without saying.

Edited January 30, 2013 by UGLYMRJ

[EatenByDistance]

balance in a game like this isn't gonna have a major impact on how well this game sells unless the changes are truly atrocious/extreme which they have not been yet (though the resolve change was completely retarded I do agree with that)

 

 

its all about content updates

[CharterMonkKent]

if you want to make money, you need to keep subscribers.

if you want to keep subscribers, they need to enjoy playing the game.

for players to enjoy playing the game, combat needs to be balanced.

 

crazy how logic works. It will never be balanced, I think everyone understands that in all MMOs. They strive for a combination of "balanace" and keeping subs and the majority playing & paying

 

 

and you can have a "simple game" and have balance Agree, but when I mean simple I don't mean simple like a FPS. Simple means easier to balance (good bye trinket relics, good bye time consuming augment slots). . why do people have to get all dramatic and act like balanced PvP requires a complete reformation of game mechanics? it certainly does not. Agree, I think things are fine where they are (except bubble stun ). I'm being realistic, the developers can only do so much to "balance" in the eyes of the majority. Skill, team composition, grouping, etc. all are extremely important in striving for "balance". Sad fact is that the majority seem to think balance is all 1v1s. While they care about end game / best player balance they understand that sort of balance isn't good for the bottom line. I hope that makes sense?

 

and PvP being a "small part of the game" is laughable at this point. it's not laughable, there are 5 WZs and there are how many PvE missions/planets/operations/flashpoints/events/etc. PvP compared to PvE content is a very small part of this game, well under 1%, all missions considered. A lot of us pvp, but that doesn't change the fact there are 5 WZs the devs have continued to acknowledge since the start of this game that a larger part of the community participates in PvP than in Operations. they say in interviews that they are adapting for that reality, yet their actions speak otherwise. I really hope for more PvP too, viable open world PvP, which is where I think mercs will shine even as is

 

this game may have been designed with a PvE focus, but even a deaf dumb blind kid could understand that this game would benefit massively from some PvP lovin' or a dumb developer?

 

I agree with a lot of what you said

[CharterMonkKent]

Gotta disagree with you guys here.... you can talk dollars and cents and I understand it from a business perspective completely...

 

However, you simply can't create balance on average performance... it will do nothing but create a further imbalance.

 

To simplify it as much as possible, if they were to balance based on maximum performance capable of the class it then becomes the players fault for not not meeting that potential.

 

Balancing it on performance by average players... which on average are below average... creates a never ending tweaking based on FOTM's performance. For example... say there was a class that was far tougher to play than any other class. (none are very difficult in this game IMO). With the theory of balancing around average performance in regular war zones, that difficult class would be buffed to meet over all numbers that the other classes are producing BECAUSE MOST PLAYERS WOULD UNDER PERFORM WITH IT.

 

So, what would you think happens when that class gets in the hands of a competent player?

 

Normally I try to stay open minded to other people's perspectives but balancing classes on a top tier level of game play is something that I feel should go without saying.

 

I agree, it should go without saying. But from a software development point of view it isn't always (usually isn't) the best way to go. Yes the more complicated and capable the users/players have the most realistic complaints, but these usually get pushed to the side because the rest of the users have less complicated (and more) complaints to fix.

 

Real example that I'm sure developers of this game can see some comedy in...

 

Complicated: I need this document to be uploaded and validated with the US patent office within 2min of completing the form, not 10min.

 

Simple: Why do I have to click the "submit" button instead of just hit enter?

 

One takes 1min to adjust, one takes weeks/months and meetings with government officials. The simple one that takes 1min to adjust is a complaint of many, while only 10 or so will demand the complicated adjustment is made. Even tho the complicated adjustment is more helpful it's not worth the time/money.

 

Again, I completely agree with you. Just saying why the developers aren't going to prioritize the few high skill end game pvpers over the majority. F2Pers that buy WZ passes on the cartel market probably get more priority.

 

Overall, like Waka said, more content will keep this or any game slugging along. 5 wzs is terribly small amount of content though...

 

Now some randomized maps formats... that would be excellent, even if off topic

[JustinxDuff]

Gotta disagree with you guys here.... you can talk dollars and cents and I understand it from a business perspective completely...

 

However, you simply can't create balance on average performance... it will do nothing but create a further imbalance.

 

To simplify it as much as possible, if they were to balance based on maximum performance capable of the class it then becomes the players fault for not not meeting that potential.

 

Balancing it on performance by average players... which on average are below average... creates a never ending tweaking based on FOTM's performance. For example... say there was a class that was far tougher to play than any other class. (none are very difficult in this game IMO). With the theory of balancing around average performance in regular war zones, that difficult class would be buffed to meet over all numbers that the other classes are producing BECAUSE MOST PLAYERS WOULD UNDER PERFORM WITH IT.

 

So, what would you think happens when that class gets in the hands of a competent player?

 

Normally I try to stay open minded to other people's perspectives but balancing classes on a top tier level of game play is something that I feel should go without saying.

 

I completely understand what you are saying but if you can't balance the game off an average player than its no better to balance the game off rateds where people have friends, voip, organization, best of the best gear etc.

 

There has to be a middle ground but what it is? I don't know.

[ArchangelLBC]

Skimming over the rest of your little piece because a) rankorssgs debated most of your points well and b) you misidentify my blunt posting style as elitism, but I refuse to leave this idea be:

 

 

 

This is completely and utterly wrong and contradicts my entire point of simplicity being a nonfactor in rated play. My spec doesn't excel because it is easier to play than others. There isn't some big secret to it. It's good because it has high burst constricted by low-cd abilities instead of force, adaptive range and adequate survivability.

 

The fact that it contradicts your point doesn't make it wrong a priori. There are other specs with high burst et. al.

 

If your concept of my spec was true, then in theory full Madness or Mad Maul would be superior because they are mechanically more intricate. But that's not at all the case, they fail to perform to the expected standard for a variety of other reasons, none of which are due to their "difficulty of use".

 

Mad Maul (if that's the spec I'm thinking of) IS theoretically superior. That superiority fails in practice precisely because it's too intricate to reliably milk the most out of it in actual live play. Whatever other factors may or may not contribute, and I'll happily hear your points on these, this one can't be ignored. You simply aren't going to reliably reach it's potential ingame against anything but a training dummy. Too many other factors.

 

I am not saying that a simple spec automatically wins over a complicated one. If the simpler spec has a low enough damage potential then it doesn't matter. There's nothing simpler in the game than running around as a vanguard spamming your basic attack, that doesn't make it the best option. I agree that simplicity isn't enough.

 

I AM saying that where two specs have the same damage potential, or a near enough damage potential, the one that is simpler to pull off will perform better in practice. If a spec has a higher theoretical potential, but the effort/conditions required to reach that potential are significantly high, then it will fail in practice to a spec with a lower theoretical, but practically easier to achieve, potential .

 

Are there factors that lead to a spec being viable besides just simplicity? Yes, absolutely. Factors besides just theoretical damage potential? yep sure are. Acting like simplicity isn't a factor though is just silly.

 

Sorry if you think I'm being an elitist. If I think I'm right or you're wrong I'm not going to sugercoat it, get over it if you expect me to respond to you. And as for your rage at me "shrugging you off", I don't feel the need to validate myself or my posts to someone who thinks pt burst is both "unstoppable" and "instant". On that note, the only instant pt ability that matters is rail shot, ED and TD tick before doing damage and you have plenty of time to respond to it via defensive CDs, calling for guard, or whatever.

 

I never said I was the best assassin, I never said I was the best at anything. But I know what I'm talking about when it comes to PvP in this game, and to the uninitiated accurate self-assessment can look like vanity to other people. Again, sorry if it offends you but if you can get over having your feelings hurt you might find that I'm usually right about what I'm talking about.

 

I don't honestly care if you think you're right and I'm wrong. I am not all offended by actually BEING wrong. I am a graduate student. Being wrong is pretty much a default state of being for me. There's a difference between "not sugar coating it" and "this person is clearly not worthy of responding to". The former is fine: "No, you're wrong, you're very wrong, and here is why". This serves to either educate me, or at least possibly educate others who may feel worthy of learning something if you're just going to assume I'm not. Explain why I'm wrong and be as blunt as you want.

 

What you did was say "no you're wrong" and left it at that. First off, why should I believe you? I'm glad that you personally feel that you've climbed high enough atop the PVP heap that you don't need to back up things you say. I don't know you though. If it comes to validation then really anyone can be confident enough in their own abilities to just blatantly assert things without backing them up. After all backing up their opinions might make them actually think through things and that might make them realize they're wrong, or it might expose an oversight on that point to others who will point out that their thinking is wrong, and hopefully why. If you're looking for validation then backing up what you say may just be the exact opposite of what you should do.

 

If you want to actually make your case though when presented with what you feel is an erroneous opinion, then just having you tell me I'm wrong isn't gonna cut it. I don't know you. I have no reason to believe you over the whacko in the commando forums who claimed he was getting 5k hits with grav round and 10k hits with demo. I don't have any reason to think you're actually that crazy either, but the point is "nuh uh" is a response for 5 year olds by 5 year olds. In the world of not 5 year olds you best back up your claim or keep silent.

 

Your well reasoned arguments may very well fall on deaf ears. This is the internet after all. On the other hand even if I remain stubborn someone else (say someone from Cycao's ranked team) might read your arguments and realize that they have a lot of merit, that Shadow DPS IS an absolutely excellent option, and thus someone learns something from this thread. For that matter I might learn something from your response.

 

You say you know what you're talking about when it comes to PVP? Cool. Prove it. Actually talk. Say something that's worth being right about. No one gets a free lunch. I'm not gonna take what you say on faith, and neither should anyone else. You sure you know what you're talking about? Then talk. If you're right most of the time, then that rightness will bear out and those who were ignorant but willing to learn will be enlightened. For those times when you're wrong, you might just be corrected and then you'll become an even better PVPer than you are.

 

TL;DR Be blunt as you want, but back up what you say, or keep silent. I'm willing to be educated, but just telling me I'm wrong is pointless.

Edited January 30, 2013 by ArchangelLBC

[cashogy_reborn]

I agree with a lot of what you said

 

 

and i am of the opinion that once the Smash situation is dealt with, bubble stun is fixed (still dont know why this wasnt just hotfixed, the fix is blatantly obvious), and Merc/Mando gets bumped up to at least sort of competitive level, PvP will be as close as its gonna get to balanced. that and resolve should get another look-see, its a great example of bioware's "good intentions gone wrong" that is so evident everywhere in this game.

 

shouldnt be too complicated, but who knows

[Jarfunkz]

Can we all just agree to nerf operatives?

[Jarfunkz]

this just shows how broken they were. it doesn't matter how many nerfs a class gets if they're still too strong after them all. the internal cd was a massive nerf and it hardly did anything to them. they need to be adjusted even more.

 

If you are having problems with a pt, then you must be having a lot of problems with an operative, mara, juggernaut, sin, sage, and sniper.

[Jarfunkz]

Can we all just agree to nerf operatives?