Premades vs PUGs - Why is this happening?

[Rilfan]

How do you define premade? Can I queue with one friend, two friends or three friends that I enjoy playing with?

 

Do you know how rarely we run against teams that do not have at least 3 people from the same guild?

 

I would say the majority of my warzones are against other premades because there are so many.

 

Do you know what I do when I queue solo and go up against a premade? I try to win and don't run to the forums to cry about it.

 

Amen.

[criminalheretic]

The people that say the solution is to form your own premades show how horrible our school system is. sigh.

 

Yes, to suggest that you emulate an obviously successful, and universally available method for achieving your goals, is indicative of not only faulty education, but reverse eugenics.

 

Edit: Actually you are right. If you are horrible at PvP, you ARE going to have a hard time either getting accepted into a group with good players, or winning with the 3 other baddies who deigned to group up with you. So to suggest that forming a premade is a universal recipe for success, is in fact inaccurate. But then if you are bad, the real issue is not that you are facing premades, it's that you are bad. So I would suggest changing the title of most of these threads to:

 

"Dear Bioware,

 

I am bad. Please make sure I only have to play against other people who are bad."

 

If you are NOT bad. Then YES, forming a premade IS the solution.

Edited January 4, 2013 by criminalheretic

[Kerensk]

Face it, there aren't enough people queing on each server to make it feasible. If they implement cross-server PVP, I understand then you actually have a large selection of queing people to actually have matchmaking. But as is, forget about it and stop crying.

What abandoned server are you on? I play at 2am and fleet still has 3 instances running. PvP queues pop in less than a minute.

 

And the system is definitely sending PUGs vs Premades by default. I can play 5 games on my republic toon and every one is pug vs. Pre, sometimes 2 premades vs a pug. I immediately switch to my Imp toon and it'sthe EXACT same tthing. I didn't even know Republic fielded Premades till I got my imp to level 50 and went up against them night after night.

 

It's obviously a bug in the system that needs to be fixed.

 

As for the gear vs class vs composition issue, thats all BS. Any premade is better than pug even if it's 3 low level casual guildies playing because PvP is won by teamwork. And premades beat pugs at teamwork by default no matter "What kind" of premade it is. The fact that it's 3 people willing to listen to each other is more than alot of pugs have.

And if all are on teamspeak the advantage is multiplied 10 times so no Pug has a chance unless the premade sucks HARD!

Edited January 4, 2013 by Kerensk

[Z-ToXiN]

What abandoned server are you on? I play at 2am and fleet still has 3 instances running. PvP queues pop in less than a minute.

 

And the system is definitely sending PUGs vs Premades by default. I can play 5 games on my republic toon and every one is pug vs. Pre, sometimes 2 premades vs a pug. I immediately switch to my Imp toon and it'sthe EXACT same tthing. I didn't even know Republic fielded Premades till I got my imp to level 50 and went up against them night after night.

 

It's obviously a bug in the system that needs to be fixed.

 

As for the gear vs class vs composition issue, thats all BS. Any premade is better than pug even if it's 3 low level casual guildies playing because PvP is won by teamwork. And premades beat pugs at teamwork by default no matter "What kind" of premade it is. The fact that it's 3 people willing to listen to each other is more than alot of pugs have.

And if all are on teamspeak the advantage is multiplied 10 times so no Pug has a chance unless the premade sucks HARD!

 

Whoa, 3 instances of fleet at 2am? Nice.

 

And I dont get the problems people are having. Some of my characters i exclusively do premades with, some I only solo que with. I dont get the issue. I certainly dont feel like im constantly running up against premades when I solo que. I actually win a lot more than I lose when I solo que. Maybe its just how things are on my server? If people are not very good and not very geared, the problem isnt with the system, its with them.

[PloGreen]

In after all the people who complain about premades start lumping gear/skill along with being part of a premade, in a thinly veiled attempt to really say "I want to compete, but I don't want to compete against anyone that has a good chance of beating me. PS I also don't want to take any responsibility for helping myself win."

 

^this

[ObiJuanShenobi]

The solution is to make group que take you into WZ matches that you can only get in as part of a group...making the solo que only taking you to WZ's filled with other solo quers....making it a legit pug. Edited January 4, 2013 by ObiJuanShenobi

[Coldin]

The solution is to make group que take you into WZ matches that you can only get in as part of a group...making the solo que only taking you to WZ's filled with other solo quers....making it a legit pug.

 

I believe ranked was supposed to address that to a degree. But they made it restricted to only 8 man groups. It'd be interesting to see what would happen if they also allowed 4 man groups to run ranked.

[sirullrich]

Look people the reason why pug's cry is because they are not WINNING!!!!! If the pugs were facerolling the premades there will be not one thread about this. Also how do u know that your team does not have a premade of 4 friends with different guild tags????? I play with people from other guilds all the time.

 

This is the mentality of the pugs who post this nonsense. " Look another group of premades it's over". Right there you lost already. Weak minded people always need a reason on why things didn't go there way. Stop making excuses. You have a choice to play with other people or not. You decided not to play with other people so in a honesty it is still your fault!!!! So put your big boy pants and suck it up!!!

[ObiJuanShenobi]

Look people the reason why pug's cry is because they are not WINNING!!!!! If the pugs were facerolling the premades there will be not one thread about this. Also how do u know that your team does not have a premade of 4 friends with different guild tags????? I play with people from other guilds all the time.

 

This is the mentality of the pugs who post this nonsense. " Look another group of premades it's over". Right there you lost already. Weak minded people always need a reason on why things didn't go there way. Stop making excuses. You have a choice to play with other people or not. You decided not to play with other people so in a honesty it is still your fault!!!! So put your big boy pants and suck it up!!!

 

You must be an Imp on Po5. Don't want BW to ruin what is a fantastic thing for you? Lmao!

[SomeJagoff]

The people that say the solution is to form your own premades show how horrible our school system is. sigh.

 

If you think UCLA is horrible, then yeah, you're right, otherwise, you're just a troll.

 

It's simple: If you queue solo, you have a 50% chance of getting into a match somebody just ragequit out of. If you queue group with 3 other people, you have a 0% chance of getting into a match somebody just ragequit out of.

 

Premades will not give you an automatic win, but they will prevent automatic losses.

 

It's pretty clear that bioware likes pugstomping and it's even more clear that they're not going to do anything about it. So your chocies are to either continue to queue solo, get put into losing matches somebody else left, then come on here to the forums to complain about premades or form a premade yourself of you and even just 1 other random person (make threads here on the forums if you like about starting pug premades so you can avoid getting into failmatches), then you'll start winning more often because you'll get grouped with other premades and then YOU can become the pugstomper.

 

In Soviet Russia, Pugs Stomp YOU!

[bradsr]

Look people the reason why pug's cry is because they are not WINNING!!!!! If the pugs were facerolling the premades there will be not one thread about this. Also how do u know that your team does not have a premade of 4 friends with different guild tags????? I play with people from other guilds all the time.

 

This is the mentality of the pugs who post this nonsense. " Look another group of premades it's over". Right there you lost already. Weak minded people always need a reason on why things didn't go there way. Stop making excuses. You have a choice to play with other people or not. You decided not to play with other people so in a honesty it is still your fault!!!! So put your big boy pants and suck it up!!!

 

Of course you play with people from other guildes all the time. It's what is happening now. Guildes are teaming up to beat on pugs because it's easier than facing each other. That is why no one isqueing in ranked anymore. Your not queing with friends. Your stacking the deck in you're favor and telling people to quit crying about it. Your not fooling anyone.

[Dabrixmgp]

If they did that I dont think I would win a single WZ ever again. Imp PuGs on Jedi Covenant are fail. Even with a premade we still lose to PuGs sometimes. Edited January 5, 2013 by Dabrixmgp

[sirullrich]

Of course you play with people from other guildes all the time. It's what is happening now. Guildes are teaming up to beat on pugs because it's easier than facing each other. That is why no one isqueing in ranked anymore. Your not queing with friends. Your stacking the deck in you're favor and telling people to quit crying about it. Your not fooling anyone.

 

Read it again. I play with other guilds, but what I was saying is that how do you know that your team doesn't have the same situation. FYI on POT5 we rank everyday. Last night we played 10 matches against 6 different teams. Again excuses on why you are not winning.

 

Anybody can ask there friends to play in this game. Everybody has the opportunity to play with other people. If you do not want to do that then why are you crying. It's not like you can't ask people to play. If you dont want to ask that is your bad.

[cigawd]

What's happening has more to do with lack of communication and coherent strategy in pugs IMHO. My recomendation, and i know before anyone points it out that this is frowned upon by most MMO players, is in game or at least in warzone voice chat. From my experience pvping with guild members on mumble the ability to voice where u are, what condition a node is in, or who to focus down is invaluable during a warzone. I do realize that there is in game ops chat for this but it requires taking ur eyes of the playfield and or typeing out instructions instead of using your attacks. The only variable that can be directly linked to premades having an advantage over pugs is team composition and even then for non ranked wrzs it can only influence half the team.

 

Imagine that upon entering a warzone you could quickly developer a strategy with ur team, assign roles and them change all that up on the fly during the match to counter what the opponent was doing with all eight players being on the same page. There are plenty of cons as well with annoying children and people with no clue what their mike is picking up among the worst offenders. I just wanted to see how the community felt on this issue a year into the game.

[cashogy]

lol @ people claiming their anecdotes are evidence of a matchmaking system.

 

it doesnt matter that "it appears" that you are matched up often with other premades, or that "it appears" to struggle matching a odd sized pre-made. it is 100% luck of the draw, until proven beyond a doubt otherwise. given to how simple it is to game the queue into getting two 4-man premades into the same WZ, the likelihood that an actual matchmaking system exists at all is slim to none.

 

and lets be serious. do you really think if bioware had a great matchmaking system, or that they even attempted one, that there would not have been some blog "feature" about it?

[ArchangelLBC]

The solution is to make group que take you into WZ matches that you can only get in as part of a group...making the solo que only taking you to WZ's filled with other solo quers....making it a legit pug.

 

And someone with a premade of 3 just hopes that there is another premade of 3 and one of 2 for them to get matched with? If their queue magically pops and then someone DCs what then?

 

As for all the anecdotes I pretty much always PVP with guildies, in premades ranging from 2 to 4, and I'd say I get matched up against Imp premades a significant portion, quite possibly the majority, of the time.

 

Thus either random draw is random, the system is in fact trying to match up Premades with Premades and then filling in the holes with Solo queuers, or on Shadowlands a significant portion of the PVP population has realized that they'll probably have a better chance of success in PVP by forming a premade.

 

You PVP a lot you tend to see the same faces. You start grouping up with the faces you recognize that are good. During all this time you're gearing yourself out.

 

That's why premades own you. They've been practicing, been gearing, and been building teamwork.

 

Get better, suck it up, or stop playing.

 

Sound harsh? Yes. But thems the breaks. I get frustrated going up against well organized teams too, especially when my team is much less organized. But while venting on the forums is certainly occasionally cathartic; getting better personally, getting my own gear squared away, and grouping up with my own premade means I actually win more, and overall have a better PVP experience most nights.

 

Everything else is just an excuse.

Edited January 5, 2013 by ArchangelLBC

[Aebrynis]

What abandoned server are you on? I play at 2am and fleet still has 3 instances running. PvP queues pop in less than a minute.

 

It's possible that he's playing on an APAC server. Dalborra is barely functional, Gav Daragon is slowly choking, and Master Dar'Nala suffocated on its lack of population some time ago. F2P injected some new blood, but PvP for these people is brutally restricted.

 

I am what I would consider 'average' in PvP. If I find myself up against a premade that is roflstomping my team into the dust, I do the only thing I can do. I finish my dailies, collect my 100/100 normal/ranked, and then stop queuing for PvP for the day. And I go do something else, in-game or otherwise. I like participating in warzones, but if it isn't fun, I'm not going to stress out by continually wondering why people aren't going after the ball carrier, aren't fighting on the pylons/doors, or aren't calling out incomings.

 

And I'm certainly not going to come here and ask for a change in the system. There are issues (such as the aforementioned APAC servers) that have languished for months, and still haven't been fixed. What makes anyone think that a PvP revamp would receive a higher priority, when it really isn't broken (and some of these other things most certainly ARE broken)?

 

Get out and do your best. Make sure you have max comms before hitting 50. And if it really gets to you, stop queuing for the warzones for the day. Do your dailies, and then stop contributing to free kills for the opposing premades. Adverse effects on the queues? Maybe. But them's the breaks.

[V-Serp]

I believe ranked was supposed to address that to a degree. But they made it restricted to only 8 man groups. It'd be interesting to see what would happen if they also allowed 4 man groups to run ranked.

 

Same thing that's happening now. Either the 4 person group blames the other 4 person group or they realize they're not good and go back to PUG stomping.

 

Also I don't buy that 8 people is too much. What is the difference between "making 3 friends" vs making 7? Premades love to defend the imbalance for pug stomping by insisting it's an MMO so solo queuers should get stomped, but then when you tell them to get 8 people they make excuses and don't even see the hypocrisy in that.

 

This game's PVP is a complete joke and there is no real skill to speak of. Anybody that thinks they are really skilled at this game probably also thinks breathing and typing at the same time is a difficult, high level feat. The skill cap for this game is ridiculously low. The difference is virtually always in game imbalances, whether premade vs PUG, gear, or class imbalance. There's very little that can be done on a PUG side to overcome these imbalances, and it is hilarious that people babble these dumb anecdotes and poorly reasoned arguments.

 

This is a PVE game. It's pretty damn fun in a group in PVE. I don't see how PVP even in a group can be fun since it's the same boring warzones over and over. In PVE at least you go to different areas and have stories and such, although at endgame it's pretty boring too. The main draw of this game is the PVE leveling experience however. And really it doesn't take more than a few months to get that done, hence why making this an MMO was a ridiculous plan.

 

I'm subbed only until the class stories are done or my siblings get bored and want to cancel. Or until the game dies. I would stay subbed for PVP if it was solo queue by itself since it adds some randomness and can make it more fun that way, but that's not a real option, and my time is pretty limited anyway, so I know that won't be what keeps me.

[criminalheretic]

Of course you play with people from other guildes all the time. It's what is happening now. Guildes are teaming up to beat on pugs because it's easier than facing each other. That is why no one isqueing in ranked anymore. Your not queing with friends. Your stacking the deck in you're favor and telling people to quit crying about it. Your not fooling anyone.

 

Yes, in exactly the same way kids "stack the deck" by picking the athletic kids for kickball. Or stacking the deck the way coaches do by having tryouts for football.

 

People are competing, on a team, and they are trying to assemble a good team. It's not malicious, dishonorable, or unfair. It's just common sense. You join a bowling league, you ask the guy you know can bowl, to be on your team. You don't roll into the alley and say "I demand that all our teams are assigned randomly!"

 

If you're not getting picked for kickball, or your after work bowling league, I'm sorry. But it's not Bioware's responsibility to create a C-League for you. I say c-league, because Non-ranked is already B-League. That's why those 'nasty premades' aren't allowed to queue teams of 8.

 

OR - Maybe you're the best kickball player AND bowler on the planet, but you also think you are the only person with a job or responsibilities outside the game, and you can't be bothered to try to group up. Again, sorry, but your responsibilities outside the game should not dictate the structure the game.

 

Bottom line, EVERYBODY has the ability to at least try to control who 3 of their 7 teammates are. If you choose not to take advantage of that opportunity, that is your right. But people need to stop acting like those that do, are exploiting them somehow.

[MachoLL]

Seriously Bioware. Change your matchmaking system so pre-made groups do not get matched up against PUGs except in the most rare of circumstances. This isn't fun for anyone except perhaps the people running the premades.

 

And please, no comments about how people should just form their own premades. That's no a solution, that's just compounding the issue of a badly designed matchmaking system.

 

The biggest issue in pvp is mostly that imps are unfocused and uncapable for the most part. When I join pugs on rep side I win around 7/10 warzones while on the imp wins 2/10. The reps have a much better communication and are far more focused.

 

So don't always presume you are loosing because off pre-mades, but yes their is alot of pre-mades vs. pugs. This however ain't much of a issue in my opinion, removing it also removes the possibility of being social, which is the point of an mmo. Creating a match-making system might work, and might not. Because people would complain nonetheless, now they would rather complain about always fighting groups with more skills than themselves. So as suggested before; their might need to be a ranked system implemented to those who group up for pvp, otherwise it would pretty much be the same over again.

[criminalheretic]

Same thing that's happening now. Either the 4 person group blames the other 4 person group or they realize they're not good and go back to PUG stomping.

 

Also I don't buy that 8 people is too much. What is the difference between "making 3 friends" vs making 7? Premades love to defend the imbalance for pug stomping by insisting it's an MMO so solo queuers should get stomped, but then when you tell them to get 8 people they make excuses and don't even see the hypocrisy in that.

 

This game's PVP is a complete joke and there is no real skill to speak of. Anybody that thinks they are really skilled at this game probably also thinks breathing and typing at the same time is a difficult, high level feat. The skill cap for this game is ridiculously low. The difference is virtually always in game imbalances, whether premade vs PUG, gear, or class imbalance. There's very little that can be done on a PUG side to overcome these imbalances, and it is hilarious that people babble these dumb anecdotes and poorly reasoned arguments.

 

This is a PVE game. It's pretty damn fun in a group in PVE. I don't see how PVP even in a group can be fun since it's the same boring warzones over and over. In PVE at least you go to different areas and have stories and such, although at endgame it's pretty boring too. The main draw of this game is the PVE leveling experience however. And really it doesn't take more than a few months to get that done, hence why making this an MMO was a ridiculous plan.

 

I'm subbed only until the class stories are done or my siblings get bored and want to cancel. Or until the game dies. I would stay subbed for PVP if it was solo queue by itself since it adds some randomness and can make it more fun that way, but that's not a real option, and my time is pretty limited anyway, so I know that won't be what keeps me.

 

It's not hypocrisy to say finding the perfect 8 man composition is harder than finding four. Is it harder? Sure. But even if it were super easy, no one has the RESPONSIBILITY to avoid the normal queue, just because you don't want to play against them.

[Z-ToXiN]

Same thing that's happening now. Either the 4 person group blames the other 4 person group or they realize they're not good and go back to PUG stomping.

 

Also I don't buy that 8 people is too much. What is the difference between "making 3 friends" vs making 7? Premades love to defend the imbalance for pug stomping by insisting it's an MMO so solo queuers should get stomped, but then when you tell them to get 8 people they make excuses and don't even see the hypocrisy in that.

 

You people seriously have no idea. Its not hard to get a good 4 man premade; its very difficult to get a good 8 person team of a deceent CLASS COMPOSITION.

 

I remember not too long ago we had a 7 person group and we waited an hour and a half to find a healer. You may say class composition may not be that big a deal, but when the only other team queing is the best team on the server, good luck surviving with 1 healer or no tanks. I used to be in an elite PVP guild a long time ago that died partly because we just couldn't get 8 people on at a time (and for some reason the GM absolutely refused to do ranked matches with anyone outside the guild on our team, but thats another issue). So we often ran 4 man teams and guess what... we got told to go do rateds by the people we faced in regs because we were owning the other teams so hard.

 

So getting a good 8 person team for rateds is not easy, especially now that so many of the good PVPers have left the game. Hence, we are left to do regular WZs.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Z-ToXiN

[PloGreen]

I wouldnt even bother apologising for playing regular warzones with 3 of my friends. Its been like this since launch. We are doing nothing wrong, I solo queue and win, I group queue and I win. I play pvp because I enjoy it - i don't choose my opposition, its completley random. You need to stop this "big bad evil premade crap", its nothing but ridiculous hyperbole, and it just makes you look like a bitter player.

 

Unranked warzones are not exclusively for solo players, the problem some of you seem to have is that you think they are. They are for everyone, not just solo players who like to complain, they just warzones where we dont play for rating - we play for comms.

 

Same as when people say voice chat in a pug game is a massive advantage, we are just chatting about anything but the game most of the time, its not rocket science to say "3 west", mark the healers, call incs, read a game in ops chat.

 

Neither are any of the maps particularly complicated to understand or develop simple tactics for. You really don't need voice chat at all to win against a 4 man premade. It's a simple game, there is not really a gear gap anymore and you can do the same as anyone else in the game. So basically it is "fair", if you are losing all the time then thats on you, not me.

Edited January 5, 2013 by PloGreen

[Zataos]

BW needs a matchmaker system to which there is none, 2 man group matched up against 2 man group and so on and so fourth.

[SomeJagoff]

Thus either random draw is random, the system is in fact trying to match up Premades with Premades and then filling in the holes with Solo queuers, or on Shadowlands a significant portion of the PVP population has realized that they'll probably have a better chance of success in PVP by forming a premade.

 

lol, I wouldn't be surprised if Shadowlands has reached an ideal eutopic future where people get along, work together, and pwn together, while here on Harbinger, seems like we're still stuck in the dark ages, and every time you tell people to form their own premade, their only response is, "WITCH!!! WITCH!!"