Analysis of the smashdemic

[UltimateKrucible]

FP wouldn't be used for SS. You are missing his point. Which is auto-crit.

 

Yeah - I was confused why he brought that up, and thought I'd missed something. Have to say, going into auto-crit chances is really splitting hairs when what we're really talking about is damage.

 

The point, which I don't think anyone has overturned yet, is that rage specced-smash is OP in that it's not matched by other classes' abilities.

 

Both yourself and the other poster have been trying to argue that Shadow's Spinning Strike does similar damage - but I think I've managed to educate you (I hope) on how the two cannot be compared because of the restrictions on using Spinning Strike, and the lack of similar for smash.

[CharterMonkKent]

Yeah - I was confused why he brought that up, and thought I'd missed something. Have to say, going into auto-crit chances is really splitting hairs when what we're really talking about is damage.

 

The point, which I don't think anyone has overturned yet, is that rage specced-smash is OP in that it's not matched by other classes' abilities.

 

Both yourself and the other poster have been trying to argue that Shadow's Spinning Strike does similar damage - but I think I've managed to educate you (I hope) on how the two cannot be compared because of the restrictions on using Spinning Strike, and the lack of similar for smash.

 

This is not at all what we were saying. Where did you get that? That would be as nonsensical as saying someone hit smash 3 times in 4 seconds.

 

If you can't understand what we are talking about we'll have a difficult time discussing it.

[L-RANDLE]

Yes, yes ... I get you now. But it makes no difference as Spinning Strike cannot be used unless the oponent is at 30% hp.

 

So, basically, you're putting even more stumbling blocks in the way of a Smash-style hit from a Shadow than the ones I've outlined.

 

Care to undermine your argument further? The floor is yours...

 

I am not even referring to Spinning Strike... The fact is there are plenty of highlevel autocrit attacks that a Shadow can output, that matches a Smasher output over a given amount of globals.

I got a Sage, but a Shadow can do pretty much the same stuff

i.e.

FP>>FiB>>>PRO>>>>FB

(All crits)

v.

Leap/Crit Proc/Buff Proc>>Smash>>>???>>>>???

(1 crit and a bunch of fluff; unless you get a lucky crit)

 

 

Now tell me again that Shadows don't have an equal amount of burst over the same globals...

[UltimateKrucible]

This is not at all what we were saying. Where did you get that? That would be as nonsensical as saying someone hit smash 3 times in 4 seconds.

 

If you can't understand what we are talking about we'll have a difficult time discussing it.

 

Um - well, it's what I've been saying. If you don't disagree, why are you quoting my posts and arguing against them

 

Also, I think you misunderstood me earlier. I didn't mean that my opponent got three smashes off in 4 seconds (the time I took to deliver a Spinning Strike). Such a feat would indeed be impossible - and only a feeble mind could conceive of such a scenario.

 

But I realise I may have not have been concise enough. Let me make it simpler for you.

 

I meant that in the duration of our combat (2-3 mins, maybe longer) I was smashed twice, while the jugg also fired one off at someone else (executing them) while I ran at her to engage.

 

Therefor, I was able to give her one big hit with spinning strike during our duel, due to the restrictions imposed on my 'big hit' ability, while she had time to use smash three times before dying. (Translation - three smashes to my one spinning strike)

 

I thought I had exagerated, but seeing your other thread about juggs firing off smash twice in a minute, I realise I had not.

 

But let us not talk at cross purposes, if that is what we've been doing.

 

I believe that Rage-specced Smash is OP because of the frequency with which it can be used, the lack of restrictions affecting it and the damage it delivers.

 

What say you?

Edited January 4, 2013 by UltimateKrucible

[UltimateKrucible]

I am not even referring to Spinning Strike... The fact is there are plenty of highlevel autocrit attacks that a Shadow can output, that matches a Smasher output over a given amount of globals.

I got a Sage, but a Shadow can do pretty much the same stuff

i.e.

FP>>FiB>>>PRO>>>>FB

(All crits)

v.

Leap/Crit Proc/Buff Proc>>Smash>>>???>>>>???

(1 crit and a bunch of fluff; unless you get a lucky crit)

 

 

Now tell me again that Shadows don't have an equal amount of burst over the same globals...

 

I'm not saying that Shadows can't do similar damage if the circumstances are right, although I'm not sure you have the math right in any case in terms of damage output.

 

I'm comparing Spinning Strike to Smash on a like for like basis -in response to another poster. Please go back and read my posts.

Edited January 4, 2013 by UltimateKrucible

[L-RANDLE]

I'm not saying that Shadows can't do similar damage. I'm comparing Spinning Strike to Smash on a like for like basis -in response to another poster. Please go back and read my posts. And remember Google translate if they are too much for you.

 

This is common game lingo... if you cant dechiper, then L2R.... no one else has a problem understanding, and I am talking about your own class... LOL...

Edited January 4, 2013 by L-RANDLE

[CharterMonkKent]

Um - well, it's what I've been saying. If you don't disagree, why are you quoting my posts and arguing against them

 

Also, I think you misunderstood me earlier. I didn't mean that my opponent got three smashes off in 4 seconds (the time I took to deliver a Spinning Strike). Such a feat would indeed be impossible - and only a feeble mind could conceive of such a scenario.

 

But I realise I may have not have been concise enough. Let me make it simpler for you.

 

I meant that in the duration of our combat (2-3 mins, maybe longer) I was smashed twice, while the jugg also fired one off at someone else (executing them) while I ran at her to engage.

 

Therefor, I was able to give her one big hit with spinning strike during our duel, due to the restrictions imposed on my 'big hit' ability, while she had time to use smash three times before dying. (Translation - three smashes to my one spinning strike)

 

I thought I had exagerated, but seeing your other thread about juggs firing off smash twice in a minute, I realise I had not.

 

But let us not talk at cross purposes, if that is what we've been doing.

 

I believe that Rage-specced Smash is OP because of the frequency with which it can be used, the lack of restrictions affecting it and the damage it delivers.

 

What say you?

 

You're right, I have no idea what you are talking about. You somehow started comparing Rage Smash to Spinning Strike and then tied me into the conversation.

 

Spinning Strike is an execute move, other classes have them. It's not the strongest attack of any of those specs. Depending on your spec.. shadow strike, breach w/proc, project w/proc are stronger.

Edited January 4, 2013 by CharterMonkKent

[UltimateKrucible]

This is common game lingo... if you cant dechiper, then L2R.... no one else has a problem understanding, and I am talking about your own class... LOL...

 

I do believe I'm being trolled here - and what does 'dechiper' mean in this 'game lingo' you speak of?

[DarkSaberMaster]

Comparing a single target attack to an AoE lol nice try

 

You said hardest hitting ability in the game. I showed you that it wasn't.

[Marisblood]

Many people think smash is over-tuned. People arguing otherwise enjoy holding their crutch and are pointless to argue against. Where did smash go wrong? Well lets analyze some of the aspects of smash.

 

 

• It is in the rage tree for both Juggernaughts and Marauders
  
• A free critical is given to smash on use of obliterate and force-charge within 20 seconds
  
• Stacks of shockwave increase the critical hit damage
  
• Build up 4-5 stacks using force choke, beserk, or force-crush
  
• Rage passive has a 30% armor penetration bonus
  
• Rage passives add extra critical hit damage
  
• Juggernaughts have the ability to use the "Unstoppable" passive in the Vengeance tree giving them CC immunity after force charge
  
• Smash is instant
  
• Smash hits 5 enemies within 5 meters
  

 

So what is the issue with smash?

 

Beserk setup

Unlike its force-choke counterpart, the Beserk setup for smash cannot be mitigated. When you have a well-coordinated team you can have allies interrupt force-choke, or a healer purge force-crush. This mitigates the number of stacks of shockwave they receive. A warrior with 1-2 stacks of shockwave deals considerably less damage than one with 4-5.

 

Instant-smash

In patch 1.5 they changed smashes mechanic to become instant. Unless you have a bubble ready to pop on the slightest bit of damage, or have very close to zero network latency (very low ping) you won't be able to stun the warrior who is immediately going to smash following the force-charge or obliterate.

 

The window for stopping a smash is no longer half a second as it was before. The 1 GCD you have to stop smash is consumed by the air-time animation of charge, and network latency (the smashers machine to the server, and then the server to you).

 

Leaps

Unlike their carnage counterparts, Rage gets a free leap for under 10 meters called obliterate. This was always the case, but was not as big of an issue when smash was not-instant. With both obliterate and force-charge there is nowhere you can go except out of sight. If you keep smash instant but remove obliterate, the class quickly falls in line with the other tree's (annihilation and carnage) in terms of shutting out damage.

 

This does not bode well for objectives in an objective based maps. Hence why smashers are very popular. They don't need to seek targets, the targets have to come to them or risk loosing the warzone.

 

Unstoppable

A hybrid juggernaught cannot be stopped from smashing. You need to shut him out when he builds his stacks.

 

Extra armor penetration

A now completely un-neccessary component of the tree. This was never a problem until smash became over-tuned because most players had the ability to shut-out rage-specced warriors right before they smashed. Now with the instant smash you need to stop the choke/crush setup instead. You cannot stop the beserk setup, except with heavy focus fire on the smash-warrior.

 

With the increased difficulty in stopping setup, and shutting out smashers, it is a wonder why they get extra armor penetration on top of the shockwave stacks. When you also factor in Juggernaughts ability to sunder armor, and marauders ability to use bloodlust it's over-tuned.

 

Before you cry about smash cry about scoundrels/operatives initial burst wich is hiest from all game (no class can open with a 6-7k crit from SF - with about 640 power and 31% crit, 78% surge, this is my dmg on scoundrel). As scoundrel i have no problem in 1v1 with any class. Before a smasher open on me he is more then 30% HP left or even dead (stunlock is the king, just learn to use it). If they balance the game they need to modify alot before doing it. NERF SMASHER.

[funkiestj]

 

Obviously a skilled troll -- look at all the attention he is getting.

[Chlomamf]

Take a look in the other Smash QQ thread. There are screenshots of an Assassin who got a 10k+ hit. Guess they should be nerfed too huh? And FYI, my Sentinel isn't a tank.

 

The difference being that 9/10 Sins can't do that much damage, whereas 9/10 Marauders can.

 

Your argument is invalid.

[CharterMonkKent]

Obviously a skilled troll -- look at all the attention he is getting.

 

Trolls are people starting multiple dubious threads. What doesn't make someone is a troll is posting in another topic of the month(s) thread.

[CharterMonkKent]

The difference being that 9/10 Sins can't do that much damage, whereas 9/10 Marauders can.

 

Your argument is invalid.

 

You say that 90% of marauders hit for 10K then tell someone what they say is invalid...

 

giggle

[L-RANDLE]

I do believe I'm being trolled here - and what does 'dechiper' mean in this 'game lingo' you speak of?

 

Spelling police.... ok...

[LuciferinDNA]

 

For reference tank sins/shadows (with some DPS gear) can hit 5k on poorly geared toons with spinning strike.

 

So a combat tech shadow with DPS gear can hit a single person for 2/3 DMG of smash to a low geared toon with a finishing spell (you can use it, just under 30%) - this one made my day : p

 

Any way, I'm rather in an opinion to upgrade the lacking AC's then nerf the OPs. When you get a nerf it can happen that you simply leave the game, if you see that other ACs are starts to be viable as well, you will roll them with a big chance. The result goes to the same direction - balance, but its more wise to lingering the subscription time in an mmo, then nerf the population.

So I support upgrade and I even expect it.

[NuSeC]

Tank class not spec.

 

Sins are single target, no comparison. Look at the disparity in class popuations, why do you think so many people play warriors now? Hmm I wonder...

 

Ill I see is qq qq qq

 

Sins/OPs are also able to come in stealth with out being detected. ZOMG OP

They can also break out of sight and restealth if they start losing. ZOMG OP

 

Maybe one day my juggy can do that.

 

Stop crying and L2P

[L-RANDLE]

Rage/Focus Spec is much like front-loaded contracts in pro sports... You get big money in the first year, then the remaining years you "make" league minimum...

 

 

At the end of the day, after all globals are accounted for, it is no more OP'd than a few other DPS AC's, and actually underwhelming when enemies know how to counter you.

 

 

Instead, people ignore the fact that their own class not only has the tools to limit the damage, but also ignore the other globals where their damage is significantly higher than a Rager, especially the ones that drop crit chance entirely...

 

All they see is big numbers on the screen, and it automatically causes butthurt....

Edited January 4, 2013 by L-RANDLE

[JustinxDuff]

Ill I see is qq qq qq

 

Sins/OPs are also able to come in stealth with out being detected. ZOMG OP

They can also break out of sight and restealth if they start losing. ZOMG OP

 

Maybe one day my juggy can do that.

 

Stop crying and L2P

 

You are fired.

[CharterMonkKent]

So a combat tech shadow with DPS gear can hit a single person for 2/3 DMG of smash to a low geared toon with a finishing spell (you can use it, just under 30%) - this one made my day : p

 

Any way, I'm rather in an opinion to upgrade the lacking AC's then nerf the OPs. When you get a nerf it can happen that you simply leave the game, if you see that other ACs are starts to be viable as well, you will roll them with a big chance. The result goes to the same direction - balance, but its more wise to lingering the subscription time in an mmo, then nerf the population.

So I support upgrade and I even expect it.

 

Another troll picking one part of a chained discussion to take out of context. I wasn't comparing it to rage smash. I wasn't comparing it to anything. It was used in reference because some moron said that tank smash was the hardest hitting attack in game.

 

Tollfest 2013 today.

[JustinxDuff]

Another troll picking one part of a chained discussion to take out of context. I wasn't comparing it to rage smash. I wasn't comparing it to anything. It was used in reference because some moron said that tank smash was the hardest hitting attack in game.

 

Tollfest 2013 today.

 

Nah see now you are taking what I said out of context. I never said tank spec, I said tank class. You can disagree or agree with me that a jugg is a tank class but that doesn't change the fact what I said was NOT referring to their tanking spec.

[L-RANDLE]

 

tollfest 2013 today.

 

:d:d:d:d:d

[CharterMonkKent]

Nah see now you are taking what I said out of context. I never said tank spec, I said tank class. You can disagree or agree with me that a jugg is a tank class but that doesn't change the fact what I said was NOT referring to their tanking spec.

 

[JustinxDuff]

Edited January 4, 2013 by JustinxDuff

[madcappah]

Rage/Focus Spec is much like front-loaded contracts in pro sports... You get big money in the first year, then the remaining years you "make" league minimum...

 

 

At the end of the day, after all globals are accounted for, it in no more OP'd than a few other DPS AC's, and actually underwhelming when enemies know how to counter you.

 

 

Instead, people ignore the fact that their own class not only has the tools to limit the damage, but also ignore the other globals where their damage is significantly higher than a Rager, especially the ones that drop crit chance entirely...

 

All they see is big numbers on the screen, and it automatically causes butthurt....

 

 

 

/end thread