I'm feeling Nickel and Dimed by Makeb

[DrewFromPhilly]

If you can get to 55 via pvp or just doing the daily HM fp I don't care about the new planet/quests at all.

 

Its just going to be the same fetch quests, kill so and so quests, go use this device on this thing quests, and so forth hidden behind voice acting. If that was still fun I wouldn't have a bunch of toons gathering dust on the starter planets, as facing the daunting task of slogging through everything again is just too much.

[timmyw]

Lol BW clearly states on those cartel packs that there's only a chance at rare loot. It's your own fault for spending money on them, not theirs.

 

Do you ***** when you go play lottery and not win too?

 

You missed the whole point of what I was trying to say, fool. I don't play lottery and I am saying that these things shouldn't be in a game and truly I wasn't expecting it. I do agree with you it is my own silly fault for doing it but I certainly won't be doing it again. There are people out there who ARE doing it again though and still getting nothing.

 

Hence the title of the thread by the OP. I put that example of mine in there for amusement, and also to illustrate that if you are going to spend any substantial amount of cash on these things to try and support the game you should definitely be receiving something decent which is what everyone expects.

 

How about contributing something important next time instead of saying something useless and stupid?

[timmyw]

so...people are complaining about $10 for an expansion to an MMO? *blink*

 

i've been paying (happily i might add) AT LEAST $20-40 per expansion since 2000. that's 12 years. Maybe i just don't understand because i'm old school and we pay for NEW things? In your opinion, this expansion is "too small" and "it should be free".

 

yeah, tell that to the developer sitting behind a desk for 12 hours a day trying like heck to get you this expansion, tell that person they aren't worth $10.

 

To the people who are complaining: spoiled rotten, the whole lot of you. and get off my lawn !

 

Wait a minute. For a start we don't really know what exactly is in this "expansion" yet. From everything I have read they are hyping it up to be huge but the actual facts are very hard to come by. An expansion is supposed to change the game.

 

Just because there is a dev sitting behind his desk for 12 hours doesn't mean we should instantly just hand over any and all cash. I would like to see a proper expansion if they are going to do it, with physical copies and Storyline updates and huge sweeping changes with new just about everything.

 

You can't just hype up a content patch by calling it an expansion and expect people to be happy about it. That's my fear: That this expansion will just give you enough stuff (Quests and Space missions) to hit 50 then just give you a new lot of dailies to chew on and max level.

 

I want to see more information about this thing before making a decision, because these guys have a history now of not delivering. The reason I am here even bothering is because I actually want something like that in a game with huge potential and hope that the "Devs" are actually reading this.

 

I think everyone should be thinking about this especially people saying stuff similar to the post I quoted here. The only way these guys are going to listen to us is if we vote with our hip pockets.

Edited December 27, 2012 by timmyw

[Arkerus]

If you can get to 55 via pvp or just doing the daily HM fp I don't care about the new planet/quests at all.

 

Its just going to be the same fetch quests, kill so and so quests, go use this device on this thing quests, and so forth hidden behind voice acting. If that was still fun I wouldn't have a bunch of toons gathering dust on the starter planets, as facing the daunting task of slogging through everything again is just too much.

 

While its very possible that all the quests will all be kill and acquire we don't know that yet. We don't know what they have been working behind the scenes. I would assume they are working on something different. Player feedback from the first 50 levels was pretty clear: we want something more than kill XX or find XX.

 

That said, well see.

[Jedi_Thran_Kuro]

Of course you feel nickel and dimed. We have been. From before Day 1. This has been the entire experience of this game. They make grand promises, let out no info, talk up how great "it" with no real info on what it is, and then over a period of time drop cryptic remarks that tend to walk back some of the promises, so that when they fall far short, they can say, hey, we never promised that.

 

Understand that EA is interested in shortterm gains based largely on marketing bumps to share value rather than a reputation for quality. This is how executive pay works now, boys and girls, bonuses and options tied to share prices on certain dates. So, don't be shocked, it's nothing new.

 

From a gaming perspective, consider, this game has not even been able to give us minor cosmetic changes that we've been asking for since the game began. Hood-down options on jedi robes, for instance. The models have been in game all along. Visit Tython or Ilum if you'd like to see them. But somehow, applying that model as an alternative skin to existing items is too much for them to manage. Not because it's technically hard to do, but because they don't care. They will string you along with vague promises of how they're working on it, and they know you'll keep paying your sub fees in hopes that they'll someday create the game they promised you years ago. They won't. All they want is another month of your sub fees, which you pay so that you can once again run the same old raid. If you want new gear, sorry, look to cartel packs. Why implement something that already exists in game when we can make you pay more money?

 

Now the "expansion" we were promised free as subscribers comes along with a price tag. And what is it? It's one planet and a level cap rise. No new class story. No new companion story. It's a little bit, just enough to make you feel you need to plunk down your money so as not to miss out on the benefit of being max level.

 

Remember back during development when folks here and on the beta forums had all sorts of suggestions, and BW told us that it was their game, and not ours, and they would do it the way they wanted to? You see the continuation of that business model here. When was the last time someone at Customer Service was actually helpful to you (or responded in anything like a normal amount of time)? Hell, when was the last time you submitted a ticket and the response you got (if you got one) actually had any relation to what you wrote?

 

We have a reskinned WOW. There's little character customization. There's NOTHING to do except combat. For those of you wondering what that means, you know there used to be MMOs that had minigames, and all sorts of non-combat activities. Like running your own shops, real crafting, cities and player housing with interiors you could actually put items in. You could use emotes without having to buy random packs to find little widgets that let you access what was once understood to be basic content.

 

So, our expectations are as low as can be, and yet, I suspect, BW/EA will still find a way to disappoint with this "expansion."

 

Oh, and I LOVE the lifeday celebration and anniversary event. Lol, some free fireworks? Gee, thanks. I really feel well-requited on being part of this community since 2008. I know, I know, there isn't one. But they might try a little harder to fool me.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Jedi_Thran_Kuro

[Dampylle]

Maybe it is because I spent a good long while playing FFXI (where mini expansions eventually became fairly common even to the point of breaking a larger expansion into three smaller parts) but the idea of sequential updates or even mini expansions does not really bother me so long as the price is reasonable.

 

Square-Enix charged 10-20 USD for their mini expansions. The amounted to a short (compared to the larger 40 dollar expansions that is) Story quest and a reward of some viable armor at the very end. But for 10 bucks it seemed a decent deal. To be clear they also did tweaks to the game and often additions and upgrades to various in game events but they pretty much always charged for any sizable addition. They later broke a larger expansion into 3 parts and instead of charging 40-60 for it up front they charged 20 for it in three installments (totaling 60 in the end) before doing a "bundled" deal later on.

 

So for me, so long as it is a full sized planet and not some dinky little number and so long as the story is enjoyable I probably will not mind the 10 dollar price tag. If it is a large enough chunk of content that may even end up feeling like a fairly decent deal.

[jedimasterjac]

It's 10 dollars. Just pay it, and be happy. It's not an 'update', it's an expansion.

[mothear]

It's 10 dollars. Just pay it, and be happy. It's not an 'update', it's an expansion.

In your opinion it's an expansion, in mine any others who have posted on these boards, the information currently given by EA does not meet our criteria of an expansion. Just because you/EA say it is doesn't make it so.

Edited December 28, 2012 by mothear

[Vitas]

In your opinion it's an expansion, in mine any others who have posted on these boards, the information currently given by EA does not meet our criteria of an expansion. Just because you say it is doesn't make it so.

 

In Star Wars Galaxies, pretty much all new explorable worlds came in expansions. You can see how most people perceive this to be an expansion rather than an update.

 

I think we should hold off judging the expansion until January or February when more features have been revealed. It's possible they could reveal something before January 7.

Edited December 28, 2012 by Vitas

[Styxx]

While its very possible that all the quests will all be kill and acquire we don't know that yet. We don't know what they have been working behind the scenes. I would assume they are working on something different. Player feedback from the first 50 levels was pretty clear: we want something more than kill XX or find XX.

 

That said, well see.

 

Something tells me that Bioware did not find the only thing MMO`s are after ... how to change the quest model. The thought itself is ridiculous, for this developer.

 

After all.. their new space missions are just some crap excuses to make people buy the cash ship parts, not some incredible tech marvel.. and their F2P model didn`t go past "lets take things from them, instead of giving them an incentive to get new ones". Yea... totally trustworthy...

Edited December 28, 2012 by Styxx

[Styxx]

In Star Wars Galaxies, pretty much all new explorable worlds came in expansions. You can see how most people perceive this to be an expansion rather than an update.

 

I think we should hold off judging the expansion until January or February when more features have been revealed. It's possible they could reveal something before January 7.

 

Why? They ask the money NOW, so we should judge it NOW.

[mothear]

In Star Wars Galaxies, pretty much all new explorable worlds came in expansions. You can see how most people perceive this to be an expansion rather than an update.

 

I think we should hold off judging the expansion until January or February when more features have been revealed. It's possible they could reveal something before January 7.

Never played SWG but from what I understand a new planet in a sandbox MMO will usually have some unique elements to further the sandbox experience.

 

I will hold off deciding whether to buy the expansion until the times that you say but will not hold off judging it as it is already up for sale. In my judgement it is lacking.

[Dampylle]

In your opinion it's an expansion, in mine any others who have posted on these boards, the information currently given by EA does not meet our criteria of an expansion. Just because you/EA say it is doesn't make it so.

The opposite is also true though. You and others have no more ability to arbitrarily decide what is or is not an expansion than those on the other side of the argument.

 

The information given does meet the criteria used by some games even if it does not meat that used by others. We do not have an established concrete criteria for what is considered a "SWToR expansion" because to date we have not had one.

 

So any insistence is simply opinion at best, assertion at worst.

[Nemmar]

In your opinion it's an expansion, in mine any others who have posted on these boards, the information currently given by EA does not meet our criteria of an expansion. Just because you/EA say it is doesn't make it so.

 

I bet like the OP you think an exampansion must add a new faction have 2 full raids, several 5 mans, level cap raise, several planets, new abilities and talents and new items.

 

There are some views there that are absolutely insane. Just the adding of a new expansion would require remaking most of the game.

For the record, none of the WoW expansions meet the criteria of the OP, so maybe... hmm someone is beeing unresonable?

 

Either way i dont mind. I cant wait for the expansion and im gonna be having a ton of fun. <3

You can keep on the fence cause youre beeing nickle and dimed for an expansion that costs 8 euros/10 dollars. How hilarious is that?! Enjoy from the sidelines, if you can.

Edited December 28, 2012 by Nemmar

[mothear]

The opposite is also true though. You and others have no more ability to arbitrarily decide what is or is not an expansion than those on the other side of the argument.

 

The information given does meet the criteria used by some games even if it does not meat that used by others. We do not have an established concrete criteria for what is considered a "SWToR expansion" because to date we have not had one.

 

So any insistence is simply opinion at best, assertion at worst.

 

Correct the opposite is true, that's why it's called an opinion. Neither are right or wrong, we have different opinions. My understanding of how marketing should work, when you ask for money, is that you provide your customer with a overall picture of what is changing and not a 'well further details to follow', which could mean (not that I think it does) telling you the release date.

[mothear]

I bet like the OP you think an exampansion must add a new faction have 2 full raids, several 5 mans, level cap raise, several planets, new abilities and talents and new items.

 

There are some views there that are absolutely insane. Just the adding of a new expansion would require remaking most of the game.

For the record, none of the WoW expansions meet the criteria of the OP, so maybe... hmm someone is beeing unresonable?

 

Either way i dont mind. I cant wait for the expansion and im gonna be having a ton of fun. <3

You can keep on the fence cause youre beeing nickle and dimed for an expansion that costs 8 euros/10 dollars. How hilarious is that?! Enjoy from the sidelines, if you can.

 

You bet wrong and if you had read some of my other posts you would know you are wrong, but go ahead and hate on all those who have an opinion that is different from yours

 

Won't be ordering until I know what rest is on offer and understand how they are going to implement the level increase. If there was no level increase I would have ordered like a shot, but no crafting of level 55 stuff will prevent me from purchasing it, until I can with cartel coins (maybe a month after it is launched).

 

Copied from the 'did you buy' thread so you can see my main reason for putting it off.

Edited December 28, 2012 by mothear

[Draloch]

In the end, they're basing their decision on making the most money right now, instead of a strong customer base going into the future.

 

They probably have some formula where they try to compare how many subs they will lose due to the patch fee vs. how much revenue they'll generate. Something like:

 

$10 represents 5% of a yearly subscription at $15/month. So if they lose 5% of their subscribers as a result of this new policy, that will be a break-even number. If they assume that players who pay once will pay again, they can suffer the 5% player loss and not have to suffer it again the next time they charge for a content update.

 

So then they look at what if they lose 10% of their subscribers and how long it would take for them to recoup those losses with more $10 updates.

 

The thing that I disagree with is that Makeb could, instead, be this really positive thing for the game if they just treated it like this exciting content update. If they advertised it as what the development team was capable of as far as updating the game for subscribers and just treated like what it is (a solo content update), then you'd have a bunch of enthusiastic people cheering the game on.

 

Instead, this is a divisive issue that has pretty much dominated (and divided) the forums all holiday season. It's just terrible policy and I hope they seriously reconsider when they come back from the holidays.

[Goretzu]

I don't think of the new level cap as a benefit. I think it's more something that they came up with as a way of putting this content patch behind a paywall. With no level cap, the 10 dollars would be optional. If you want to play the planet, you pay 10 dollars for it. If you don't want to play it (or don't want to pay), then you just don't get it and it doesn't really matter - you just lose access to a presumed daily area and maybe a flashpoint if that ends up being part of it.

 

They're raising the level cap so that they can force everyone who plays the game to buy Makeb. They won't be expanding the game at the level 50 tier any more, so if you want to benefit from your subscription, you MUST fork over an additional 10 dollars.

 

I understand that they are under the microscope of the EA shareholders and it's a very tough position to be in. Most of us heard the "miss" comment from the last quarterly loud and clear.

 

The thing is, if you can't treat your subscribers the way subscribers are supposed to be treated, then what the heck are you doing running an MMO in the first place? If you want to embrace free to play, then convert the game to free to play and charge for everything. If you want the guaranteed revenue stream of 12-15 bucks a month from subscriptions, then you really should be treating those subscribers with respect.

 

After having a couple weeks to consider this issue, I've decided that I won't be supporting this new and unprecented business model. I'm a responsible consumer and there are competing products out there that I can spend my entertainment budget on. When my current 6 month subscription wears out, I'll be converting to month to month and as soon as I'm unable to download a patch because it's locked behind a paywall, I'll unsubscribe and find another game to spend my money on.

 

I have nothing against the quality of the game and there's a small part of me that hopes the community team will compile a summary of the torrent of blowback threads from the past couple weeks, which will convince the business group at Bioware to change course. I'm in a guild that has been successful with the Operations content and I hate to leave those guys, but as we get closer to the paywall lock and there's no reversal of policy on charging subscribers, I'll be informing them of my decision so they can find a replacement for me before I go.

 

This is a very sad post for me. I've been playing this game since February of 2011 (fairly early on in beta testing). If not for the unfriendly business structure, I'd still like to play this game for a couple more years at least. My great hope was that I'd play this game until Titan and be ready to move on at that point. It looks like another game will probably have to be that bridge instead. Needless to say, I'm extremely disappointed.

 

 

 

Yeah I think this is WHY it's being done too, certainly I don't think an extra 5 levels and a planet the size of Belsavis is what SWTOR needs right now.

 

I'd much rather see no level increase and an expansion like Scars of Velious that adds LOADS of content from L30ish to L50 and the end game.

[Goretzu]

Why? They ask the money NOW, so we should judge it NOW.

 

They should at least be realsing full details at the point they want your cash.

[Nitblade]

They should at least be realsing full details at the point they want your cash.

 

That's the problem, they can't do it.

They still don't know how much content will be gutted from this "expansion" to pad the next update that hits.

 

If you been here long enough you know that Makeb was to be 1.5 and have Cathar. F2P came and wiped that away and it became 1.4, 1.5, 1.6 and the foreseeable 1.7 and maybe even 1.8 before we finally get Makeb

[grombrinda]

Wow all the other threads go deleted...a little miffed there Ea ??

[maxetius]

as soon as I'm unable to download a patch because it's locked behind a paywall, I'll unsubscribe and find another game to spend my money on.

 

Pretty much, and this [paywall locked updates] are almost here already. You HAVE to buy Makeb even if it's content is weak as hell. Future endgame content will be for 55. Not 50. How is this different from any other game, you ask? It's not, except you are getting less for your money. They have already said Makeb is AS big as their 'bigger' planets. Like Hoth. So in other words, you have a new host of planet quests to do that will take you to 55. New class abilties which they HAVE to do. Otherwise, No new classes, no new races. Wow.

 

As a consumer I will not tolerate this and I know i am not alone. This is some of the worst I have ever seen and i've played truly horrible MMOs. [shadowbane]

 

I am playing for the class stories. Bioware is not extending those, so a few more characters to have fun levelling up and then its unsub time.

Edited December 31, 2012 by maxetius

[Thaed]

*Disclaimer: I can only share my own views. They are not 100% indicative of everyone displeased with the expansion announcement, though I like to think that there is at least some cross-over.

 

1) I do not care about the price. I doubt anyone else cares about the price. I threw down $20 on LoL the other day because I feel that Riot deserved it. So yeah, $10 is nothing to me.

 

No, what I have a problem with is the principle of the matter. Bioware originally stated, when Makeb was first announced, that it would be a free, extremely large content update (unlike any other in the MMO genre, I believe). They also stated in the F2P announcement/FAQs/What-have-you, that the experience would not change at all for a subscriber who continued to subscribe. They then turn around and say that Makeb is no longer classified as a content update, but an expansion, and that subscribers will also have to pay to continue playing at endgame. Essentially, they lied, changing circumstances be damned.

 

2) They've set up another sleazy cash-grab to get optimists to fork over more money. We have almost no information about Makeb other than the +5 levels, new planet with faction quests and no new class story. They set a time limit on this pre-order so that when they do go into specifics on what Makeb will entail, those who pre-ordered cannot back out of the deal if they find it to be lacking.

 

3) As of this point, Makeb is not an expansion, it's a content update. We already have planets, we already have levels, we already have faction stories, we already have operations, flashpoints and warzones. What happened to open world PvP? What happened to the super secret space project that we'd find out about at the end of last year? What happened to SGRAs? Where's pazaak and swoop racing? Where's the customisable housing and/or ships? Where are the things that make this an expansion and not a content update?

 

Using WoW as an example: BC introduced flying mounts and new races, WotLK introduced a new class, Cataclysm completely redesigned the original continents and offered continuity in it's story and MoP introduced a new class and pet battles. Some of those things are small, some might not appeal to you, but they introduced new elements of gameplay and expanded the game.

 

Honestly, I want Bioware to prove me wrong on this one. I really, really do. But the way this game's been going, I simply don't have it in me to believe that they will.

 

4) Chosing to support Makeb means choosing to support the game going in this direction. Vague promises of content that everyone has to pay for every now and then, subscribers be damned. What will you say when they release a real ~$50 expansion ontop of the pissy little $10 'expansions'? I'd be more than happy to pay for a real expansion that extended class story and added some new element to the gameplay, but supporting Makeb means supporting more expansions like Makeb, which do not appeal to me at all as a subscriber.

 

I've been here since 2008. I bought the CE and I loved the game. I have no regrets. But I am sorely, sorely dissapointed in the direction that this game is being taken. It's depressing to see a game that had such massive potential flounder into obscurity.

 

I'm aware that my views do not align with anyone on either side of the argument. But please, just stop and consider that there might be more to our argument before you assume we're all cheapskates that don't have $10 to spare.

Edited January 1, 2013 by Thaed

[AboB]

I think I got the gist of what you are saying:

You want them to give us content that changes the game (like Gods and Kings did for civilization) instead of getting shoehorned in as close as possible to the original game (like Shivering Isles did for Oblivion) ?

 

If so, I fully agree. Although,I think that we're going to get a Shivering Isles type deal, with the information provided by BW. if subs weren't charged for it, there would be a lot less kerfuffle over the expansion, and people would stop treating it like the Armored Horse (which is clearly the better simile for the Cartel Market). Am I getting what you are saying here?

Edited January 1, 2013 by AboB

[TheBBP]

I think I got the gist of what you are saying:

 

The gist of what he is saying has been said many times over in many other threads.