Shadows and Scoundrels

[MindgameZ]

The duel between those 2 is complicated and the scoundrel start obviously with an advantage (dps one).

Shoot first (8 sec CD) is far better then kik (1 minute), dodge (4 sec) vs resilience (3 sec) is better, recuperate give them HP recovery, they also have Underworld Medicine, Kolto Pack, Diagnostic scan as healing, tendon blast keep the target in place, slow from shadow only slow for 50%.

Scoundrel started as GOD mode class, wich make players believe they get nerfed every single time Bioware try to fix the class, wich is not true ofc. They were good in 1.3 but got rebufed in next patches specaily 1.4. They need NERFS to be fixed proper.

If this game have 2 stelth class then both need to have similarities. I wish kik same as shoot first, i wish slow same as tendon blast, i wish resilience 4 sec like dodge, i wish recuperate, i do not wish healing, but i wish dot talent with instant cast to prevent stelthers vanish without using a CD for that like dodge or resilience. Then it will be a fair balance.

 

Just think on that, scoundrel is strongest dps class atm in 1v1 duels.

 

1 think you forget , shadows have medigation and almost every shadow is running 27/0/14 or 23/1/16

[Riggz]

Nerf operatives

[Sathid]

Is this a joke? no scoundrel should ever beat a Shadow,unless there was some seriuos gear issue's.

[Zunayson]

Just stack more intelligence.

 

Noone here played kotor lol

 

Oh and scoundrels were bad, scout or soldier were better since no jedi classes had a lot of skill progression

[LarryRow]

Is this a joke? no scoundrel should ever beat a Shadow,unless there was some seriuos gear issue's.

 

I checked the date twice to make sure it didn't say 2011.

[NoTomorrow]

Would be nice if we had a designated assassin hard counter in this game, just as melee and snipers have their own respective hard counters. Hell, even a pyro can be close to hard countered by a good sniper.

 

Here is the best possible solution: any stealth class needs dot cleansing in order to give them a chance to combat stealth. This is why they got force shroud. However make it only cleanse the tech dots, but stll remain vulnerable to any other tech attacks and stuns, while keeping the resistance to foce attacks and stuns.

 

This way the game will be balanced with force users being vulnerble to tech while tech users to force. the sorc cleanse, merc cleanse and operative all work on this principle.

 

Tech users need a buff against assassins.

Lets see how Shinarika will faceroll after a change like this.

Edited December 20, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[fungihoujo]

You do know that devs do not want class balance, right? They need FOTM classes so that people will keep rerolling which means more subscription money.

 

Or it'll just mean 1.5 million people will unsub in 3 months after a huge nerf to the most popular classes.... is what I would have said back in March and gotten laughed at for suggesting such a thing.

 

Can you imagine if they'd did that back with patch 1.2? Heck- this game might have even gone f2p in the first year if they'd done something like that!

 

 

Also- nerf operatives, too powerful compared to shadows.

[ObiJuanShenobi]

While I do not play Shadow/Assassin, as a Scoundrel Healer I can tell you this:

 

I know how to play my class pretty well. I consistently heal 300k-800k per WZ (depending on the WZ and the tasks at hand), manage my CD's and HoT's well enough to consistently keep people up, and I manage my self protection CD's and stealth well enough that I rarely die. So, I think I comfortably offer an opinion on this topic.

 

Overpowered to the shadow/assassin in direct combat? I disagree. Funny enough, the moments I DO die...it usually comes at the hands of a very skilled assassin.

 

I think this is the case of the OP not knowing the shadow class well enough. Just because you are good at one class, doesn't mean you are good at playing another. Step back and examine how you are playing. Sometimes, I feel like a god with my Smuggler, but when I try to jump over to my Inquisitor or my Guardian, I put the lowest numbers up of anybody on my team. It was shocking to me at first that as good as I felt I was playing with those other classes, the outcome of my efforts was equal to piss and sh--. Then I realized that maybe I just don't understand the Inquisitor and guardian classes like I thought I did, and the Smuggler is my only real niche that I have.

 

Seems you suffer from the same problem. Just...you don't realize it yet.

[warultima]

Ops healing is good no question about that.

But it takes a completely clueless newb shadow to get owned by a concealment operative but most shadows are completely clueless newbie derps anyways hence you still see shadows/sins die to something like an operative or merc/mendo in 1v1. I know its sad but the solution should be nerf operative, so the common majority of derps that picked a Sin/Shadow should never ever die to an operative 1v1 ever again, even if they go afk.

 

New Passive Ability (learned from level 10): Wrath of the Shadows / Anti-Assassination for Shadows/Sins.

Everytime the shadow is being damaged by an operative, there's a 100% chance that this puts a stacking buff on the shadow increasing shadows damage mitigation by 50%, max 2 stacks, this effect may not occur more than once every 0.5 second, also putting a debuff on the operative, preventing all heals and stealth to or from the operative, this debuff persist thru death. lasts 3600 seconds.

Edited December 20, 2012 by warultima

[ArchangelLBC]

Would be nice if we had a designated assassin hard counter in this game, just as melee and snipers have their own respective hard counters. Hell, even a pyro can be close to hard countered by a good sniper.

 

Here is the best possible solution: any stealth class needs dot cleansing in order to give them a chance to combat stealth. This is why they got force shroud. However make it only cleanse the tech dots, but stll remain vulnerable to any other tech attacks and stuns, while keeping the resistance to foce attacks and stuns.

 

This way the game will be balanced with force users being vulnerble to tech while tech users to force. the sorc cleanse, merc cleanse and operative all work on this principle.

 

Tech users need a buff against assassins.

Lets see how Shinarika will faceroll after a change like this.

 

 

I still don't understand your beef with Shadows. Also what Shin does could hardly be called facerolling. It takes quite a bit of skill to pull off what she does.

 

Hard counter to shadows would be other shadows (actually some of my best moments in pvp, win or lose, are against assassins), smart PTs/Vanguards, and the zerg. We are seriously so lackluster in the zerg, especially on offense.

 

Also why does a class NEED a hard counter. That hard counter crap is a mentality you got into because it justifies the incredible advantage snipers have over Knights/Warriors because you're their hard counter, and justified that stealth classes are yours, but that idiotic metaphor has always been very limited in scope, and only applicable to the sents/maras and now smash juggs/guardians that are running everywhere.

 

 

Meanwhile Sorcs and Sages hard counter nothing really (though those bubble stuns sure make the melee's lives miserable amirite?), and Mercs and Commandos are just cannon and saber fodder.

 

Get off of this crusade dude, it's pointless. Snipers and Assassins are the closest to balanced classes we have in this game. Other classes should be so lucky, and OTHER other classes could afford to be taken down a peg or two. Enough nerfs. BW has proven again and again that they can't be trusted to wield a nerf bat. It's always a sledgehammer they use and the only class that can afford that kind of nerf now are Rage Maras/Focus Sents since they have other viable PVP specs (and Guardians and Juggs would be SoL without serious buffs to Vig/Veng if Focus/Rage got nerfed).

 

Nerf Shadows into the ground the second you take away leap and interrupt immunity from snipers. Don't dish it out if you can't stand it.

[warultima]

Again most shadow sin players really have very very little clue how much better they have it over most other ACs. Only reason its not as frequently refered to as "FotM" is because it takes more work to do it right compare to say rage monkeys. But Shadow/Sin are probably one of the most OPed class only if you know how to play, noobs need not to reply.

 

Seeing a post coming from one of the longest "hidden" fotm class, and possibly the most powerful solo/dueling AC in game, QQing about a perceived crap dps AC being too strong when shadowsin is better than operatives in 90% of the categories.

 

But just like my last post said, most shadow/sins are completely clueless newbs anyways. And these completely amazingly clueless players are probably the ones that actually kept shadow/sin from being nerfed. So be thankful to them shadow/sin newblets.

[NoTomorrow]

I still don't understand your beef with Shadows. Also what Shin does could hardly be called facerolling. It takes quite a bit of skill to pull off what she does.

 

Hard counter to shadows would be other shadows (actually some of my best moments in pvp, win or lose, are against assassins), smart PTs/Vanguards, and the zerg. We are seriously so lackluster in the zerg, especially on offense.

 

Also why does a class NEED a hard counter. That hard counter crap is a mentality you got into because it justifies the incredible advantage snipers have over Knights/Warriors because you're their hard counter, and justified that stealth classes are yours, but that idiotic metaphor has always been very limited in scope, and only applicable to the sents/maras and now smash juggs/guardians that are running everywhere.

 

 

Meanwhile Sorcs and Sages hard counter nothing really (though those bubble stuns sure make the melee's lives miserable amirite?), and Mercs and Commandos are just cannon and saber fodder.

 

Get off of this crusade dude, it's pointless. Snipers and Assassins are the closest to balanced classes we have in this game. Other classes should be so lucky, and OTHER other classes could afford to be taken down a peg or two. Enough nerfs. BW has proven again and again that they can't be trusted to wield a nerf bat. It's always a sledgehammer they use and the only class that can afford that kind of nerf now are Rage Maras/Focus Sents since they have other viable PVP specs (and Guardians and Juggs would be SoL without serious buffs to Vig/Veng if Focus/Rage got nerfed).

 

Nerf Shadows into the ground the second you take away leap and interrupt immunity from snipers. Don't dish it out if you can't stand it.

 

Force Shroud destroys some of the most basic, elementary abilities vs counter abilities balancing in this game. Why should a PT AP, Pyro (unload is a joke for PT), sorcerer, operative have ALL of their attacks completely rendered useless just beause the asassin has one single IWin button? (again, dont ask operatives to snipe asassins, as it is a joke) .

 

I said it before and i say it again, i am completely OK with stealthers countering snipers, but this single cooldown is ridiculously stupid. It comes nowhere close to whatever other CD you try to make it look powerful. Even 50% defense CDs can be countered by using tech attacks or in some cases accuracy buff that gunslingers have. Even if you'd take an entrenched sniper with orbital strike casted on him, plasma probe as well is still nothing even remotely powerful to what force shroud is. (btw somebody was whining about it too, i pointed out that with use of certain talents and CDs maras can have up to 90% DR from orbital strikes and PP). Even against his worst matchup, a marauder had tools to deal with snipers, obfuscate, cloak of pain, saberward, force camo.

 

Think about much more balanced the matchup of scoundrels vs asassins would have been if force shroud did not completely block tech damage. This would benefit the entire pvp class balancing.

Edited December 20, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[ArchangelLBC]

Again most shadow sin players really have very very little clue how much better they have it over most other ACs. Only reason its not as frequently refered to as "FotM" is because it takes more work to do it right compare to say rage monkeys. But Shadow/Sin are probably one of the most OPed class only if you know how to play, noobs need not to reply.

 

Seeing a post coming from one of the longest "hidden" fotm class, and possibly the most powerful solo/dueling AC in game, QQing about a perceived crap dps AC being too strong when shadowsin is better than operatives in 90% of the categories.

 

But just like my last post said, most shadow/sins are completely clueless newbs anyways. And these completely amazingly clueless players are probably the ones that actually kept shadow/sin from being nerfed. So be thankful to them shadow/sin newblets.

 

Perhaps, but like I said having a ton of tools which can be leveraged to great effect , but taking a high skill cap to actually fully and completely leverage those skills is the bar BW should aim for with ALL class balance. Lots of tools are a good thing and then you can seperate the goods from the bads based on how they utilize those tools. For what it's worth I feel like my sent also has quite a lot of tools. Their access to easy mode DPS in Focus/Rage spec doesn't suddenly do away with those tools, it just makes their use less necessary for good performance (though necessary for incredibly good performance).

 

My first class, and my PVE main, is DPS commando. I know EXACTLY how good shadows have it.

 

I'll say it again: More tools good. Less tools bad.

 

Force Shroud destroys some of the most basic, elementary abilities vs counter abilities balancing in this game. Why should a PT AP, Pyro (unload is a joke for PT), sorcerer, operative have ALL of their attacks completely rendered useless just beause the asassin has one single IWin button? (again, dont ask operatives to snipe asassins, as it is a joke) .

 

I said it before and i say it again, i am completely OK with stealthers countering snipers, but this single cooldown is ridiculously stupid. It comes nowhere close to whatever other CD you try to make it look powerful. Even 50% defense CDs can be countered by using tech attacks or in some cases accuracy buff that gunslingers have. Even if you'd take an entrenched sniper with orbital strike casted on him, plasma probe as well is still nothing even remotely powerful to what force shroud is. (btw somebody was whining about it too, i pointed out that with use of certain talents and CDs maras can have up to 90% DR from orbital strikes and PP). Even against his worst matchup, a marauder had tools to deal with snipers, obfuscate, cloak of pain, saberward, force camo.

 

Think about much more balanced the matchup of scoundrels vs asassins would have been if force shroud did not completely block tech damage. This would benefit the entire pvp class balancing.

 

3 seconds (5 seconds in a tank or tank hybrid spec) buys time. If tank specced they don't really have the burst to completely finish you off in that time, and no spec of assassin or shadow is killing you two GCDs. I seriously don't understand all the beef with Resilience. It's powerful, but if you use at low life it's not gonna save you. If you use it at high life it's gonna let you get ahead, but then it's gone, which means they're now committed to the fight because Force Cloak is no longer a reliable option. Use the tools YOU have to take the upper hand again.

 

Or don't. If you tell me that equally played a high skilled shadow should always win a 1v1, that wouldn't be the worst thing. It's what they excel at. You keep ignoring the fact that they aren't nearly as good in the zerg. You've never been one of those people who say "the game isn't balanced around 1v1" right? Because if you were it would be extremely hypocritical to complain that a class is strong 1v1.

 

Not to mention nerfing force shroud has serious PVE implications (it's one of TWO defensive cooldowns a tank class gets). If you nerf that you better be prepared to give tanks another defensive cooldown.

 

In the meantime, as a means of PVP balance, without Resilience we'll never reliably combat stealth again, and considering the "run and gun" nature of Infil spec, that would pretty reliably kill that one.

 

As a sniper, you have plenty of white damage so I'm not sure what your specific beef is.

 

Call it OP blindness if you want, and I won't deny the thing is useful, but even if they removed it entirely it's not going to make PVP any more balanced. Just make your favorite class to irrationally hate on be easier to kill. Other people like to hate on smash juggs and bubble stuns.

Edited December 20, 2012 by ArchangelLBC

[Technohic]

Stealth Counters?

 

I actually think Mercs should get an extra thing with the stealth scanners to where they can pop multiples out around a given area that stay there until they move or, as they cast beyond whatever limit they have, the oldest one dissapears.

 

Lord knows that shouldn't be the only thing given to mercs.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Technohic

[CharterMonkKent]

Stealth Counters?

 

I actually think Mercs should get an extra thing with the stealth scanners to where they can pop multiples out around a given area that stay there until they move or, as they cast beyond whatever limit they have, the oldest one dissapears.

 

Lord knows that shouldn't be the only thing given to mercs.

 

I like this idea. Stealth scan could be applied to a friendly, self or otherwise. Same cooldown and range.

[ArchangelLBC]

I like this idea. Stealth scan could be applied to a friendly, self or otherwise. Same cooldown and range.

 

I actually think you should be able to keep it up all the time, and the range should be a little better if we're honest. Merc/Commando would need some serious buffs, but it'd be nice to have a niche as a stealth counter. Right now engineering sniper's play that game better than we do.

[Washingtoon]

I don't really get what soundrels/operatives are complaining about either. They have the most OP tree in the game, the heal tree, and their dps trees are doing what they're supposed to do. It's a 1 vs 1 class and they can still burn people down while stunning back to back ( I don't know if that is a bug but I was stunned from full health to death by one yesterday with no option of breaking it). Operatives can atleast play the objective by guarding while commandos are total garbage, just like the sage tele tree. The balance tree isnt much to cheer about either, no survivability and poor force management. Hence, if you don't have a tree that place in top three, or even top five, of trees to be fixed you shouldnt complain.

 

The real problem is probably, just as for shadows, that operative dps require a bit more from the player.

[CharterMonkKent]

I actually think you should be able to keep it up all the time, and the range should be a little better if we're honest. Merc/Commando would need some serious buffs, but it'd be nice to have a niche as a stealth counter. Right now engineering sniper's play that game better than we do.

 

Problem is, conceal opers aren't in rateds, so giving commandos this ability wouldn't help them be competitive.

 

Hopefully merc/commando get's some love (run and gun proc for some non channeled action)... and hopefully opers will get some love too (bring back the damage so they actually matter)

 

Both my merc and oper are shelved for the time being.

[ArchangelLBC]

Problem is, conceal opers aren't in rateds, so giving commandos this ability wouldn't help them be competitive.

 

Hopefully merc/commando get's some love (run and gun proc for some non channeled action)... and hopefully opers will get some love too (bring back the damage so they actually matter)

 

Both my merc and oper are shelved for the time being.

 

I was referring to shadows too

 

It'd be nice if Commando got some love. Can't say I really seriously hope for much these days though.

[-Mythix-]

Problem is, conceal opers aren't in rateds.

 

That's because so few are good at it, but if you find someone who is solid at it, they're not too shabby at all.

[NoTomorrow]

Perhaps, but like I said having a ton of tools which can be leveraged to great effect , but taking a high skill cap to actually fully and completely leverage those skills is the bar BW should aim for with ALL class balance. Lots of tools are a good thing and then you can seperate the goods from the bads based on how they utilize those tools. For what it's worth I feel like my sent also has quite a lot of tools. Their access to easy mode DPS in Focus/Rage spec doesn't suddenly do away with those tools, it just makes their use less necessary for good performance (though necessary for incredibly good performance).

 

My first class, and my PVE main, is DPS commando. I know EXACTLY how good shadows have it.

 

I'll say it again: More tools good. Less tools bad.

 

 

 

3 seconds (5 seconds in a tank or tank hybrid spec) buys time. If tank specced they don't really have the burst to completely finish you off in that time, and no spec of assassin or shadow is killing you two GCDs. I seriously don't understand all the beef with Resilience. It's powerful, but if you use at low life it's not gonna save you. If you use it at high life it's gonna let you get ahead, but then it's gone, which means they're now committed to the fight because Force Cloak is no longer a reliable option. Use the tools YOU have to take the upper hand again.

 

Or don't. If you tell me that equally played a high skilled shadow should always win a 1v1, that wouldn't be the worst thing. It's what they excel at. You keep ignoring the fact that they aren't nearly as good in the zerg. You've never been one of those people who say "the game isn't balanced around 1v1" right? Because if you were it would be extremely hypocritical to complain that a class is strong 1v1.

 

Not to mention nerfing force shroud has serious PVE implications (it's one of TWO defensive cooldowns a tank class gets). If you nerf that you better be prepared to give tanks another defensive cooldown.

 

In the meantime, as a means of PVP balance, without Resilience we'll never reliably combat stealth again, and considering the "run and gun" nature of Infil spec, that would pretty reliably kill that one.

 

As a sniper, you have plenty of white damage so I'm not sure what your specific beef is.

 

Call it OP blindness if you want, and I won't deny the thing is useful, but even if they removed it entirely it's not going to make PVP any more balanced. Just make your favorite class to irrationally hate on be easier to kill. Other people like to hate on smash juggs and bubble stuns.

 

Again, i never ever objected assassins vs. snipers MM and Engineering matchup, i am ok with that except for lethality being made completely useless against tanks which it was supposed to counter. You see the problem of fs is that that it is not some random skill that you pop up just for some extra measure, extra defense, its a counter skill to many many spec rotations.

 

Against lethality, all you have to do is wait for sniper to apply corrosive dart and corrosive grenade, then BAM! Force shroud, both dots are cleansed, now CULL is useless. The irony in that is 1.2 gave specifically to lethality weaker dots reapplying after being cleansed so cull could still function, but hey we have force shroud. So we basically got a spec that will destroy a PT tank (which i can even handle with MM) , while doing nothing to Asassins.

 

Force shroud off? Who cares?? The rotation is ruined, corrosive grenade is on 12s CD.

 

Do i need to continue and give further examples?mas a concealment operative, if your acid blade poison is cleansed, you cannt go lacerate immediately after FS wears off because without dots, it will not proc a free TA.

 

Pyro spec, no dots? , bye bye railshots, that will also often miss because itsva ranged attack. You can basically delay an entire pyro spec rotation by 3-5 sec, FS gone use one of many CC delay pyro yet again.

 

Sorc, lol, i dont know where even to start here how easy it is, you are smart enough to figure it out yourself.

 

So there you go, one tiny puny CD - entire specs ruined.

 

And pls lets not cover our assses with PVE balance with a PVP breaking issue. We are not that low to go for such dirty tricks.

 

PS: yeah yeah i use white damage attacks as a sniper, dont worry.

[CharterMonkKent]

I was referring to shadows too

 

It'd be nice if Commando got some love. Can't say I really seriously hope for much these days though.

 

I don't find opening up out of stealth that important on my shadow. On my oper it's life or death. Strange, if they took stealth away from shadow/sin it would still be excellent. If they took stealth away from opers, well, we all know what would happen, ha.

 

I hear ya on the no buff to commando... so many ideas that could make a commando/merc fun/better. But I stopped posting them months ago, patch after patch of small tweaks, no big changes, it starts to become pointless.

[CharterMonkKent]

That's because so few are good at it, but if you find someone who is solid at it, they're not too shabby at all.

 

I like to think I'm pretty good on my oper. But I help out my team more if I'm on my PT, Jugg, or Sorc.

[Altheran]

Against lethality, all you have to do is wait for sniper to apply corrosive dart and corrosive grenade, then BAM! Force shroud, both dots are cleansed, now CULL is useless. The irony in that is 1.2 gave specifically to lethality weaker dots reapplying after being cleansed so cull could still function, but hey we have force shroud. So we basically got a spec that will destroy a PT tank (which i can even handle with MM) , while doing nothing to Asassins.

 

Force shroud off? Who cares?? The rotation is ruined, corrosive grenade is on 12s CD.

 

Do i need to continue and give further examples?mas a concealment operative, if your acid blade poison is cleansed, you cannt go lacerate immediately after FS wears off because without dots, it will not proc a free TA.

 

Pyro spec, no dots? , bye bye railshots, that will also often miss because itsva ranged attack. You can basically delay an entire pyro spec rotation by 3-5 sec, FS gone use one of many CC delay pyro yet again.

 

Sorc, lol, i dont know where even to start here how easy it is, you are smart enough to figure it out yourself.

 

So there you go, one tiny puny CD - entire specs ruined.

 

And pls lets not cover our assses with PVE balance with a PVP breaking issue. We are not that low to go for such dirty tricks.

 

PS: yeah yeah i use white damage attacks as a sniper, dont worry.

 

For Lethality DoTs, it doesn't seem to work anymore. They can get rid of the main DoTs reducing the incoming damage, but they get stucked with Lingering DoTs that leaves Cull damage unchanged.

 

For other specs you metionned, I'd like to bring your attention on something else... They are Tech/Force heavy. And as you know, these kind of attacks ignore tanking stats. So what will occur if the tank who relies the most on tanking stats and has the least dmg reduction of all tanks, would not have a personal way of dealing with these kind of attack which happen to also be the biggest chunk of incoming damage in PvP ?

[Thoop]

I like to think I'm pretty good on my oper. But I help out my team more if I'm on my PT, Jugg, or Sorc.

 

they are so crazy OP and need a nerf so bad, yet they aren't considered worthy of being put on a rated team, better off playing anything else. That totally makes sense.....? (at least everyone wants ops dps on their raid team tho right)

 

What I got from this thread is that the OP doesn't know how to play shadow to it's potential, not even close