Fix Force Shroud!

[Venjirai]

http://www.pic-upload.de/view-17588989/Screenshot_2013-01-05_05_51_16_387808.jpg.html

 

Every hit was resisted, even the first tick, still cced.

Still believe it's not broken?

[DarthMaulUK]

Read the posts on the past few pages. They explain that shroud doesn't make a player immune to tech/force attacks. It drastically increases the chance to negate them, but it is not immunity. People misunderstand the tooltip. In short increased 100% chance does not = immunity in this game.

 

Maybe you should read what he wrote. FORCE STUNNED. And I really don't know where you are getting your info from because FS DOES resist force attacks that's the whole idea of it. Funny how it USED to work before 1.4 and since then, it doesn't. Therefore its BROKEN.

 

You clearly don't play the class

[DakoHawk]

Maybe you should read what he wrote. FORCE STUNNED. And I really don't know where you are getting your info from because FS DOES resist force attacks that's the whole idea of it. Funny how it USED to work before 1.4 and since then, it doesn't. Therefore its BROKEN.

 

You clearly don't play the class

 

Everything that guy said went way over your head.

[StJon]

http://www.pic-upload.de/view-17588989/Screenshot_2013-01-05_05_51_16_387808.jpg.html

 

Every hit was resisted, even the first tick, still cced.

Still believe it's not broken?

this just tells me you dont know how force chocke works.... the stun portion of it is applied on the first hit but i doesnt "refresh" every time you get damage...

 

Simple way to prove it is the fact that you get 800 resolve from force choke either it lasts all 4 seconds or 0.1 secs

 

So the way i see it his accuracy bypassed your FS one time but not the rest on the damage.. nothing out of the ordinary

 

Maybe you should read what he wrote. FORCE STUNNED. And I really don't know where you are getting your info from because FS DOES resist force attacks that's the whole idea of it. Funny how it USED to work before 1.4 and since then, it doesn't. Therefore its BROKEN.

 

You clearly don't play the class

 

I'm an assassin been playing since launch and i can tell it never worked 100% of the time no matter what patch you were in... it was never the I WIN button it was never GODMODE button.. it just helped a whole bunch

Edited January 5, 2013 by StJon

[Reveillere]

For people claiming it's not suppose to work 100% of the times, get your f-king facts straight alright? 202% resistance should outweight any accuracy

 

Proof 1: http://assets-cloud.enjin.com/users/3664689/pics/original/1346008.jpg

 

And here is how awesome this ability is,

 

Proof 2: http://assets-cloud.enjin.com/users/3664689/pics/original/1346007.jpg

 

I just saw someone posted a similar ss to mine being force choked, I want to add that this isn't a case only with force choke/stasis, I've been knocked back, knocked down by operatives, smashed, pulled, force stunned, electrocuted in force shroud. (It all started a few months ago, around august-september)

[Venjirai]

this just tells me you dont know how force chocke works.... the stun portion of it is applied on the first hit but i doesnt "refresh" every time you get damage...

 

Simple way to prove it is the fact that you get 800 resolve from force choke either it lasts all 4 seconds or 0.1 secs

 

So the way i see it his accuracy bypassed your FS one time but not the rest on the damage.. nothing out of the ordinary

 

 

 

I'm an assassin been playing since launch and i can tell it never worked 100% of the time no matter what patch you were in... it was never the I WIN button it was never GODMODE button.. it just helped a whole bunch

 

And this just tells me you don't know how to read.

First tick was resisted.

Often you also get knockbacked even when you resist the attack.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Venjirai

[LastWizard]

Because it simply is not working and is more random then a PvE geared player in a wz.

 

When I used to pop Shroud, I would rush over (a firetrap but not on fire) for example with the ball but now, I still get stunned, rooted, pulled - all this even with a full resolve bar.

 

Once bandicam sorts out its update(it doesn't like windows 8 and the latest Ati drivers) I will post some videos. Today I was stun locked by an Op, popped shroud and was again stunned, I mean, come on please. Has the amount of stuns in the game confused this ability?

 

I have an assassin and through much study this is what I've learned, if a stun and force shroud are both used at the same time, you have a chance of being stunned because the buff you get from force shroud is late. I get stunned in the first second all the time, never in the middle of it. I don't know whether its lag or something else but thats the only way it happens to me. Its most def a bug.

[Smashbrother]

One guy earlier posted a SS of your resist chance when using shroud. It said something like 205% I believe. Well some people have like 110% or so chance to hit with special attacks. 205-110 = 95% chance to resist. This is why sometimes **** goes through. Edited January 6, 2013 by Smashbrother

[jizerai]

For people claiming it's not suppose to work 100% of the times, get your f-king facts straight alright? 202% resistance should outweight any accuracy

 

Proof 1: http://assets-cloud.enjin.com/users/3664689/pics/original/1346008.jpg

 

And here is how awesome this ability is,

 

Proof 2: http://assets-cloud.enjin.com/users/3664689/pics/original/1346007.jpg

 

I just saw someone posted a similar ss to mine being force choked, I want to add that this isn't a case only with force choke/stasis, I've been knocked back, knocked down by operatives, smashed, pulled, force stunned, electrocuted in force shroud. (It all started a few months ago, around august-september)

 

That's because you don't understand how Accuracy works. SWTOR uses a Two Roll system, where you first checks to see if a hit lands and the second, if it's a critical, shielded or normal attack. The first roll is simply a matter of Accuracy vs Defense/Resistance (Deflect, Miss, Dodge, Resist and Parry are treated the same way mathematically, but they can trigger different effects).

 

Source - or you can Google it yourself. The truth is out there.

[Chlomamf]

Wow, you must have some extreme bad luck, as whenever I use it to score on Huttball it always works. Legshots have no effect, stuns have no effect, pulls have no effect etc.

 

It's my "wait-until-you-realise-that-you-cannot-stop-me-from-scoring" ability.

[iesnbold]

One guy earlier posted a SS of your resist chance when using shroud. It said something like 205% I believe. Well some people have like 110% or so chance to hit with special attacks. 205-110 = 95% chance to resist. This is why sometimes **** goes through.

 

in that case it's 205-10, ie 195% chance to resist. It's only what is above 100% accuracy that reduce your opponent's defense/resist chance.

 

As stated above, it's just lag/animation delay. Like sometimes in duels you throw an attack just before losing the duel, your opponent eats the attack but you lost just before that.

[jizerai]

in that case it's 205-10, ie 195% chance to resist. It's only what is above 100% accuracy that reduce your opponent's defense/resist chance.

 

As stated above, it's just lag/animation delay. Like sometimes in duels you throw an attack just before losing the duel, your opponent eats the attack but you lost just before that.

 

No. Every point above 100% reduces your opponents Defense. Had you read the actual article, you would probably have deduced it.

 

Let's take some examples:

 

#1 You have a 100% Hit Chance. Your opponent has 10% Defense. You hit 90% of the time, he Deflects/Dodges 10% of the time.

#2 You have a 90% Hit Chance. Your opponent has 30% Defense. You hit 60% of the time, he Deflects/Dodges 30% of the time and you Miss 10% of the time.

#3 You have a 10% Hit Chance. Your Opponent has 5% Defense. You hit 5% of the time, he Deflects/Dodges 5% of the time and you Miss 90% of the time.

 

The same is true of Resistance. Your Accuracy reduces the chance of your opponent Resisting the attack. That is why Resistance is increases by 200% (and not 100% as it says in the tooltip). Let's say your opponent has 110% Hit Chance on a Force/Tech attack, that would mean that your actual Resistance Chance against said attack would be 200 - 110 = 90%

 

Here's another article for you all to read that should clear it up even further.

 

Edit: Just to make things clear here, it's late and I might've made some errors. The point is this: Defense/Resistance directly negates Accuracy

Edited January 6, 2013 by jizerai

[jizerai]

Wow, you must have some extreme bad luck, as whenever I use it to score on Huttball it always works. Legshots have no effect, stuns have no effect, pulls have no effect etc.

 

It's my "wait-until-you-realise-that-you-cannot-stop-me-from-scoring" ability.

 

Do you use Sabre Ward as well, because I'm pretty certain Leg Shot is a Ranged (aka weapon) attack and therefor not even remotely governed by Resistance.

[vladllen]

The same is true of Resistance. Your Accuracy reduces the chance of your opponent Resisting the attack. That is why Resistance is increases by 200% (and not 100% as it says in the tooltip). Let's say your opponent has 110% Hit Chance on a Force/Tech attack, that would mean that your actual Resistance Chance against said attack would be 200 - 110 = 90%

no, its complete opposite, defense reduces your chance to be hit by lowering your opponents accuracy, its even written in the article you gave: ChanceToHit = Accuracy - Defence, so if your accuracy lower than your opponent defence rating, the attack misses

and even in the example #3 you gave

#3 You have a 10% Hit Chance. Your Opponent has 5% Defense. You hit 5% of the time, he Deflects/Dodges 5% of the time and you Miss 90% of the time.

if your opponent has 10% Defence, you misses 100% if the time

the same system applies for force/tech attacks, FS gives you 200% resistance, its impossible to have this much accuracy, so it should block any force/tech attack

the simply 1st roll looking like this: IF( Random number 1-100) < Accuracy - Defence THEN Attack hits, and thats how game mechanics works!

and another moment that I want point to, smugglers/IA has an similar ability - dodge/evasion, the tooltip says: "Increases your chance to dodge melee and ranged attacks by 100% for 3 seconds", like FS it increases your defence chance by 200%, and the question: did you ever see that your melee/ranged ability hit through dodge/evansion?

resilence/FS completely broken, force/tech damage that comes through it (what happens very often) is not part of game mechanics, by speaking the words BW understands, NOT "working as intended"

Edited January 6, 2013 by vladllen

[randiesel]

Today I was stun locked by an Op, popped shroud and was again stunned, I mean, come on please. Has the amount of stuns in the game confused this ability?

 

Sin

-----

Spike

Electrocute

Low-Slash (Deception-only, talented skill)

 

Op

-----

Hidden Strike

Debilitate

 

Sins have the same amount of stuns as an Op, not counting Flash Bang b/c that's a mez (whereas Sins have Overload to knock back). Low-Slash gives Sins an extra stun, Spike can be used out of stealth by tanks/hybrids. I love the Op > Sins arguments about how many stuns an Op has. Even a vanguard can keep someone stunned longer than an Op can, and dish out more damage.

Edited January 6, 2013 by randiesel

[jizerai]

no, its complete opposite, defense reduces your chance to be hit by lowering your opponents accuracy, its even written in the article you gave: ChanceToHit = Accuracy - Defence, so if your accuracy lower than your opponent defence rating, the attack misses

and even in the example #3 you gave

 

if your opponent has 10% Defence, you misses 100% if the time

the same system applies for force/tech attacks, FS gives you 200% resistance, its impossible to have this much accuracy, so it should block any force/tech attack

the simply 1st roll looking like this: IF( Random number 1-100) < Accuracy - Defence THEN Attack hits, and thats how game mechanics works!

and another moment that I want point to, smugglers/IA has an similar ability - dodge/evasion, the tooltip says: "Increases your chance to dodge melee and ranged attacks by 100% for 3 seconds", like FS it increases your defence chance by 200%, and the question: did you ever see that your melee/ranged ability hit through dodge/evansion?

resilence/FS completely broken, force/tech damage that comes through it (what happens very often) is not part of game mechanics, by speaking the words BW understands, NOT "working as intended"

 

Yes. If you have 10% Accuracy (in total) and your opponent has 10% Defense, you will never hit. That's how it works (in reality, he will Dodge/Deflect etc 10% of the time and you will Miss 90% of the time which actually has implications).

 

I've noticed it on several occasions that Force Shroud does not give you a complete immunity - but look at the ability if you don't believe me! The tooltip says "... increases your chance to resist Force and tech attacks by 100% for 3 seconds." It is not an immunity, as certain other abilities are.

 

Just because the internal mathematical calculations are not the same, does not mean they don't behave the same way in-game. One derives the chance of Hit/Miss based on Accuracy - Defense = ChanceToHit and the other derives the chance of Hit/Resist from Resistance - Accuracy = ChanceToResist. For example: 200 - 110 = 90. That will explain why people are experiencing being hit anyway.

 

Let's take Evasion for example. You have a base 5% Defense Chance. That is then increased to 105% during 3 seconds. Now, when being attacked by someone with higher Accuracy than 105% you can still be hit. The same is true of Saber Ward or any other ability that can increase Defense and/or Resistance.

 

I see absolutely no problem here. With that being said, until BioWare actually tells us how their internal mechanics work, or that the ability is indeed broken in some way, we simply have to make estimates here. And for most of the time, people are not hit by Force/Tech attacks during the duration. That makes me believe that it is working as intended.

 

Edit: It seems I didn't read your question regarding Evasion very well (I should've been in bed hours ago...). You're correct that Evasion gives you 200% when looking at the Defense Chance (it still states 100% on the tool tip though). I cannot answer your question here and now, since I cannot recall if anyone has hit me during Evasion or not, but I can absolutely try to make some research on the subject and test it in-game. It's easy enough to do.

Edited January 6, 2013 by jizerai

[vladllen]

I've noticed it on several occasions that Force Shroud does not give you a complete immunity - but look at the ability if you don't believe me! The tooltip says "... increases your chance to resist Force and tech attacks by 100% for 3 seconds." It is not an immunity, as certain other abilities are.

Because Unsoppable buff grants you immunity only to cc effects, while FS gives resistance to all force/tech attacks

The word "immunity" should be applied only to controling effects and it also was implemented by BW quite recently, when you trying to control character with full resolve you will see white flytext "Immune"

Unstoppable and FS are two different abilities and they applies two different in-game effects:

FS:

ModifyStat: AmountMin=>2, Stat=>Tech Defense, AmountMax=>2 (means 200% defence)

Unsoppable

CallEffect: FromActor=>Caster, EffectNumber=>2

SetDuration: MaxDuration=>4000, Duration=>4000, Toughness=>3

ModifyStat: AmountMin=>0.2, Stat=>Damage Reduction: Energy, AmountMax=>0.2

Thats why they have different descriptions

 

Just because the internal mathematical calculations are not the same, does not mean they don't behave the same way in-game. One derives the chance of Hit/Miss based on Accuracy - Defense = ChanceToHit and the other derives the chance of Hit/Resist from Resistance - Accuracy = ChanceToResist. For example: 200 - 110 = 90. That will explain why people are experiencing being hit anyway.

It's not proven that this stats are calculating the different ways and even more there are no logical reasons why it should behave differently from each other. Only proven source is game designer interview that stands that defence chance lowers your opponents accuracy durring first roll. All other explanation of FS situations are only your guessing (so does mine, but at least, they are based on something). All I know, that before 1.4 I didnt get damaged/cc'ed by force/tech attacks so often as I do now and I think a lot of players feels the same way. Until certain explanation from BW will appear, I consider FS completely broken

 

Let's take Evasion for example. You have a base 5% Defense Chance. That is then increased to 105% during 3 seconds. Now, when being attacked by someone with higher Accuracy than 105% you can still be hit. The same is true of Saber Ward or any other ability that can increase Defense and/or Resistance.

No it's not, it grants your 200% defence chance

And i never saw someone being white damaged through evasion unlike FS

[jizerai]

Because Unsoppable buff grants you immunity only to cc effects, while FS gives resistance to all force/tech attacks

The word "immunity" should be applied only to controling effects and it also was implemented by BW quite recently, when you trying to control character with full resolve you will see white flytext "Immune"

Unstoppable and FS are two different abilities and they applies two different in-game effects:

FS:

ModifyStat: AmountMin=>2, Stat=>Tech Defense, AmountMax=>2 (means 200% defence)

Unsoppable

CallEffect: FromActor=>Caster, EffectNumber=>2

SetDuration: MaxDuration=>4000, Duration=>4000, Toughness=>3

ModifyStat: AmountMin=>0.2, Stat=>Damage Reduction: Energy, AmountMax=>0.2

Thats why they have different descriptions

 

I absolutely agree. They are different and should be treated differently. I am simply giving you an example as to why it doesn't necessarily mean that it was intended to give you an absolute "immunity" to Tech/Force attacks. I disagree that it "should" (and therefor must) be applied to CC only - but that's just semantics, really.

 

It's not proven that this stats are calculating the different ways and even more there are no logical reasons why it should behave differently from each other. Only proven source is game designer interview that stands that defence chance lowers your opponents accuracy durring first roll. All other explanation of FS situations are only your guessing (so does mine, but at least, they are based on something). All I know, that before 1.4 I didnt get damaged/cc'ed by force/tech attacks so often as I do now and I think a lot of players feels the same way. Until certain explanation from BW will appear, I consider FS completely broken

 

As we both have stated, we are not aware how the mechanics work exactly. But it is quite obvious that they work in different ways, as they would be the same otherwise, which they obviously aren't (Tech/Force ignore both Defense and Shield for example). Your guesstimates are just as good as mine on this. I make a hypothesis, find empirical data and come to a conclusion. So do you. My conclusion is different from yours, obviously, and only one of us can be right. But you have absolutely no more proof on your side then I do considering the fact that we don't know anything of the said mechanics at work. And trust me, I've tried to find some information on this, but there just aren't anything available on the subject that I can find (btw, as an interesting point, in their own manual you can find that Accuracy does reduce Resistance, not that I put any real faith in it).

 

However, it would be quite easy to gather some data on the subject. All we need to do is a controlled experiment and see how many times we come up with a successful Tech/Force ability and compare it to what we should find if I'm correct. If I have time, I will do just that.

 

No it's not, it grants your 200% defence chance

And i never saw someone being white damaged through evasion unlike FS

 

Had you read me edit, you would see my response to this.

Edited January 6, 2013 by jizerai

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Unplayable