Mandalorians (Controversy)

[Aurbere]

For those who say the jedi's precognitive abilities where blocked during the prequel era by Sidious (Aurbere and Wolfninja I'm looking at you), There are plenty of examples of during the clone wars of Jedi using their 'spidey senses'. The idea that Sidious was blocking ALL the jedi's short range- short time frame precognitive abilities (Battle Precognition) is silly. What Yoda is saying in his overused quote is in reference to the specific Farsight ability.

 

Now, Sidious was also occupied fighting Yoda during (part of) order 66 (I think) so the idea of selectively blocking at certain times is also silly. The reason I say that quote was about Farsight is that Sidious was known to rely on it heavily, thus it makes sense he would learn to block it as Yoda was a well know user of farsight as well. (you never see Yoda and Windu mention their lack of precognitive abilites in regards to their combat effectiveness, but when they're meditating is when they mention it. I'd think something like losing a major weapon in your arsenal would warrant more than vauge warnings and concerned glances but rather galaxy-wide man hunts and intense discussions.

 

And for one more thing, the Jedi rely more on emotions in the force around them more than in precognitive abilities to foresee their opponent's attacks (mind reading if you will, combined with precognitive abilities) thus a droid or long range sniper (1-2 miles easy) can avoid this jedi defensive mechanism. Now, mines and grenades are still unusable but snipers and droid become perfect options (one example is the Imperial Agent sniping a jedi in the class video for this game, the jedi even sensed it a bit and still died.)

 

Yet another hole in precognitive abilities is that they are mostly quick visions and emotions up for interpretation, meaning a jedi may be frozen with indecision or take an action that would easily get them killed.

 

Edit: Here I should mention some jedi did in-fact survive Order 66, (like Yoda who, as it turns out, seemed to sense the clones lethal intent.) I agree that the clone thing was because there was no real malice and Yoda was meditating when approached (possibly) allowing him to actually read their minds as opposed to emotions (or he heard the holo with enhanced hearing).

 

I'd love for someone to teach me something if I'm wrong or bring up counter arguments, but if we're going to discuss this more can we make another thread? Lets get back on topic here now.

 

Sidious wasn't blocking their precognitive abilities. Like you said, he was blocking their ability to see the future (Farsight) and diminish their ability to use the Force. Their precognitive abilities were still intact. Now one could ask: "Why didn't they see the clones' attack coming then?"

 

This is for a number of reasons.

 

1. They were in the heat of battle (not as big a deal as the later ones)

2. They considered the clones allies and trusted them

3. The clones had no malice, hatred etc. for the Jedi to pick up on. They were just following orders

 

Yoda sensed the attack coming because he felt the Jedi being wiped out almost simultaneously and made the connection. Not only that, but Yoda's precognitive abilities are incredibly good.

 

I go into this more in my Order 66 thread.

[StarSquirrel]

They only couldn't sense it, because Sidious was blocking them.

 

This right here was the reason for my post. As well as your comment about Windu and Yoda mentioning the Farsight, having nothing to do with Battle Precognition which was what Wolf was referring to.

 

I realize that after the page of posts previous to mine the reason was lost. Sorry if I was late to the party. (pages 3-4)

 

Edit: stuff keeps hitting me after I finish my posts. This whole thing was in regards to Order 66 and wolf's assumption that lack of Battle Precognition was the doom of Jedi. I totally agree with everything you've said Aurbere save for that comment you made about Windu and Yoda which I think was an issue of context.

Edited December 10, 2012 by StarSquirrel

[mefit]

A Large Amount of StarWars fans are unbudging and unwilling to have StarWars be about anything else but ForceUsers .

I myself only play ForceUsers , I have made strides to play another class like Bounty Hunter , Operative , but in the end I love playing my Jedi Knight .

 

StarWars is name alone shows that it is much more than Jedi and Sith . Heck in all 6 movies you can get to like many of the main Characters .

To call Mandalorians a Mary anything is far from the truth as it gets .

Karen Traviss might be a Black Mark on the history of StarWars Novels but to anyone who cared less about Mara Jade , those books are still seen as great books .

 

People who hate her have no idea how Books get published . Nothing she wrote was unchecked or not looked at . If anyone is to blame for her Writing , it is those of the Editors , LucasFilm , and George Lucas himself.

I mean she did not just write one book , and if the crazies didn't blow their top about Mara Jade being killed (OMG HORRIBLE) , Karen Traviss would have likely still been paid to write books.

 

Mara Jade had to die , to show that Luke Skywalker can be hurt . It was likely to bring a God to someone Human levels .

Mandalorians are cool even before Karen Traviss came to write anything about them . The Armor was used before she even wrote her first book for LucasFilms.

The issue is some fans are too far into SW to know the difference between reality and fiction . Mara Jade was a Character , and in a growing world people have to eventually die to build story further and to show that work is able to grow . Sometimes Villians have to win , and someone loved has to be lost . Mara Jade's death was wrote just fine , she died by someone more powerful then herself and no matter who wrote it , she would have likely died in some fasion that her fans would go Crazy over and say the whole book and the writer were just bad.

(Look at any Main Character that dies , the writers of those books are usually casted out and end up haveing to leave the SW Books . Always the same Period. )

 

StarWars is plagued by bad writing by people who make characters into Gods as a way to define them . Luke Skywalker from the Movies is awesome , Luke Skywalker from EU is garbage .

No wonder George Lucas had no respect for the EU , look how they treated his Character . Turned him from something that could be seen as Human into a Mortal God .

Edited December 10, 2012 by mefit

[Ventessel]

First, I love how off-topic this thread has become. Start talking about those silly Mandos, and we get a Jedi powers flame war. Outstanding work.

 

Second, to address the issues raised about Mandalorian culture not being original, or too similar to Klingons/Spartans, I would like to point out there is nothing new under the sun. Everything draws on some source material or inspiration, or is a spiritual successor to some idea that preceded it. Warrior cultures exist, and so it makes sense to have one in Star Wars. They have enough original flavor regarding their recruitment, clan structure, and equipment/training that it doesn't feel like a direct knock-off of anything else. (Basilisk War Droids just SOUND cool, I remember playing KotOR and hearing references to them).

 

Now, the other major issue at hand is: are Mandalorians Mary Sue characters? I believe that Karen Traviss' writing was much too one-sided and painted the Mandalorians are invincible gods of the battlefield, to the detriment of the rest of the Star Wars universe. My favorite Mandalorians are those of the Exar Kun/Mandalorian Wars era. I felt that they were balanced, well thought out; and while not always likeable, at least believable as a cast of characters.

 

The major thing to bear in mind when discussing these hypothetical match-ups of "These Awesome Guys vs. These Other ******es" is the concept of scarcity and balance. Sometimes referred to as the "Law of Conservation of Ninjitsu", this is a trope in fictional writing that roughly reflects the fact it's quite hard to maintain a large force of extremely capable, talented fighters who win every fight they're in.

 

The idea that Mandalorians as a whole are a cut above your average conscripts is valid. The veteran soldiers in their ranks would be the equivalent of professional mercenary troops. High quality, disciplined soldiers with a wealth of experience that helps them survive difficult combat situations.

 

Now, Mandalorians vs. Jedi. Another story altogether.

 

To address this, first let's look at the powers available to your average Jedi (think, a trained Knight who has had some experience operating on his own). The things being discussed here are: Precognition, Mind Reading (or jedi senses, feeling emotions through the force, etc), Blaster Deflection, Force Crush/Telekinesis.

 

Precognition: Some Jedi (not all, mind you) have demonstrated the ability to sense impending danger and react to it. This seems to be a result of attuning oneself to the Force and actively sensing for threats (I point to Ep. II, with the attempted assassination of Padme, averted by Anakin and Obi-Wan). It was by no means made clear that all Jedi have this level of sensitivity, as two of the most powerful Force users in the Jedi Order at the time were devoting their attention to guarding against threats and only managed to detect the threat at the last second.

 

Mind Reading (or what have you): Jedi can sense the surface thoughts of individuals, and in some cases influence them (the classic, "these aren't the droids you're looking for"). However, this also requires focus and effort. A Jedi must be on his guard, searching for a particular thought or feeling, and as demonstrated so wonderfully by Atton and his fellow Jedi killers, there were learned skill sets that let a practiced individual evade detection by Jedi.

 

Blaster Deflection: Most Jedi can deflect blaster bolts. The great ones are well versed in Soresu or other forms and can handle a tremendous amount of fire. However, Order 66 clearly demonstrates that a decent volume of fire will put down even the best Jedi. (Bao-Dur's advice seems rather valuable: "The best shield is not getting shot at in the first place")

 

Telekinesis: Setting aside Force Unleashed (I never warmed up to the whole style of that game, and it introduced a lot of inconsistencies in canon), Jedi have the ability to pull blasters out of your hand (Darth Vader to Han Solo in ESB), push you across the room with a blast of force, jump incredible distances (Throne room fight in Ep. I, Luke vs. Vader on Death Star Mk II), and crush the life out of you (Vader's numerous "promotions" to Imperial officers). This establishes the general scope of what powerful Force users can do (everyone involved in those battles were among the most powerful of their time period).

 

So, the question is: Can Non-Force users kill Jedi?

The answer is clearly yes. However, there are caveats. A powerful Jedi (or Sith) armed with his lightsaber and prepared for battle, is going to slaughter any number of non-force using enemies. The most proficient fighters on each side of the battle will inevitably be Force sensitive, since it gives an incredible advantage. As long as they avoid facing a coordinated attack by masses of enemy troops at once, they will tear through the battlefield like a force of nature, wreaking untold havoc.

 

Now, if Jedi like Anakin Skywalker, Mace Windu, etc. are the Hectors and Achilles of the battlefield, then Mandalorians might find a kindred spirit in Odysseus. The gods didn't give him physical might or unerring aim, but he was cunning and used that cunning to avoid death on numerous occasions, and to defeat much stronger foes. A smart team of Mandalorians, who know their stuff and are prepared to fight a Jedi, would be able to kill one. Or even several, so long as they held the initiative. That's the major thing in any fight. If you bring the right tools for the job, and know how and where to use them, you will emerge victorious so long as you hold the informational advantage over your enemy. No matter how good you are, if you don't know where your enemy is and what he's doing, then you are going to die when he attacks you.

 

 

Thanks to those of you who slogged through this lengthy post, and hopefully we can have some intelligent discussion on the subject (both of Mandalorians in general, and the Mandos vs. Jedi debate that spun-off).

[Wolfninjajedi]

This right here was the reason for my post. As well as your comment about Windu and Yoda mentioning the Farsight, having nothing to do with Battle Precognition which was what Wolf was referring to.

 

I realize that after the page of posts previous to mine the reason was lost. Sorry if I was late to the party. (pages 3-4)

 

Edit: stuff keeps hitting me after I finish my posts. This whole thing was in regards to Order 66 and wolf's assumption that lack of Battle Precognition was the doom of Jedi. I totally agree with everything you've said Aurbere save for that comment you made about Windu and Yoda which I think was an issue of context.

 

Sorry I was meaning Farsight in that, I should have been more clear. There are different Senses, I was mainly just lumping it all in together to avoid confusion.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Nataph]

Karen Traviss would have likely still been paid to write books.(Look at any Main Character that dies , the writers of those books are usually casted out and end up haveing to leave the SW Books . Always the same Period. )[/u][/b] .

 

Karen Traviss no longer writing star wars books has nothing to do about Mara dying.

In an email to me, and which I already knew, the reason SHE decided not to write any more star wars books was because the Clone Wars, in 3 episodes of the Mandolorians, changed the way she created them. The went a whole different route than what she had written and decided to no longer be with star wars. If you can still find it, Karen Traviss actually has a mandalorian language that can found on the net.

[Beniboybling]

I think it was pre-forum wipe it was, but i'll go through what he says and put it out there.

=========

 

Blasters- Pretty much already stated, a stupid idea to run at a jedi with one.

 

Grenades/Mines= Can't really work here, being that jedi can sense danger so mines won't work. Grenades...those can just be force pushed back or away or just avoided, they have a timer of them so you wouldn't really be able to actually have them set off before they are tossed away or whatever.

 

Gas Attacks= Pretty much stated as already being ineffective.

 

Energy Shields= While they would work well against lightsabers, they wouldn't work against The Force. The jedi could just crush the shield device that is placed on their opponent thus no shield.

 

Sniping/Cover= Again..pretty ineffective, due to jedi being able to sense danger and those around them.

 

Indirectly Attacking= Putting their allies in danger, while it can be effective its not like the jedi can't protect them and their self. Again it can be effective, but it would really depend on what kind of danger their allies would be in.

 

Orbital Bombardment= This really would be the only sure fire way to actually kill any of them, because the radius of bombardments could be very wide and deadly, but then this isn't really actual combat.

 

Detection/Hiding their minds= Ya..no The Force is in everyone, meaning it doesn't matter if someone doesn't believe in The Force or doesn't use it. They can be sensed all the same, as for hiding minds...that I can't seem to recall if it was ever disproven as an actual ability that worked effectively or what i'll let someone else take a stab at that.

 

Overwhelming Odds= Now this has been proven to work, however it only worked because the Jedi were blinded by Sidious as they were fighting and weren't able to react in time to defend themselves properly. That isn't to say if the jedi weren't blinded that they would be able to win, but if they weren't blinded they would have been aware of the danger sooner and had more proper time to defend themselves or run away.

==========

 

So really 1 attack could work(Orbital Bombardment)

 

2 attacks are maybe(Overwhelming Odds/Indirect Attack)

 

1 of which isn't really fighting them, the other 2 there are too many variables in the situation to see if they would actually work.

So, please explain to me why HK-47 was a famed Jedi killer? And how Revan's and Traya's sith assassins managed to wipe out almost the entire Jedi Order using these tactics?

[Wolfninjajedi]

So, please explain to me why HK-47 was a famed Jedi killer? And how Revan's and Traya's sith assassins managed to wipe out almost the entire Jedi Order using these tactics?

 

Simple, to make a character and to make a story. It would be pretty bad story telling if the jedi won all the time, wouldn't it? Its like Superman, in theory he should win just about every fight but the writers nerf his powers to such a degree to tell a nice story unless of course the villain he is fighting against is of his equal power(in this case a Sith)

Edited December 10, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Simple, to make a character and to make a story. It would be pretty bad story telling if the jedi won all the time, wouldn't it? Its like Superman, in theory he should win just about every fight but the writers nerf his powers to such a degree to tell a nice story unless of course the villain he is fighting against is of his equal power(in this case a Sith)

But Jedi aren't invincible. Your arguments are perfectly credible if were talking about Mace Windu or Obi-Wan Kenobi here but the fact is if you throw a grenade and unsuspecting Jedi, or snipe them from afar, or plant some mines, force sense and precognition are only going to do so much for them... just because they can sense an attack just before it happens doesn't always mean they can avoid it, nor can they sense everything. And you didn't cover all HK mentioned, there's still sonic screamers, cluster rockets, and plasma charges, Jedi are also by no means immune to poisons. Indirect attacks work just fine, most Jedi are not in fact capable of protecting others and themselves simultaneously, overextending and exposing themselves are likely to happen if they attempt to protect an ally. Why overwhelming odds doesn't work I don't know, 10 Mandalorians vs 1 Jedi = dead Jedi.

 

Examples:

Darth Bane was overwhelmed and incapacitated by a group of mercenaries and an Ikotchi assassin. He sensed the attack before it happened but still failed to deflect all their attacks, he also succumbed easily to the Ikotchi's poison (this was the second time Bane succumbed to poisons, the first almost and would have killed him)

 

In the Revan novel, Scourge beats 2 sith by targeting one viciously, as one tried to protect the other it left that one exposed to attack.

 

Savage Oppress was overwhelmed by a group of battle droids that he definitely saw coming. And we're talking about the B1 type here.

 

You may not have played the BH storyline, but at the end a bunch of Jedi Masters are killed by a grenade surprise attack, and the guy who threw it wasn't even trained in combat

 

P.S. Seeing as hiding minds was mentioned and described in KOTOR 2 - a canon source, it is a canon ability

[Wolfninjajedi]

But Jedi aren't invincible. Your arguments are perfectly credible if were talking about Mace Windu or Obi-Wan Kenobi here but the fact is if you throw a grenade and unsuspecting Jedi, or snipe them from afar, or plant some mines, force sense and precognition are only going to do so much for them... just because they can sense an attack just before it happens doesn't always mean they can avoid it, nor can they sense everything. And you didn't cover all HK mentioned, there's still sonic screamers, cluster rockets, and plasma charges, Jedi are also by no means immune to poisons. Indirect attacks work just fine, most Jedi are not in fact capable of protecting others and themselves simultaneously, overextending and exposing themselves are likely to happen if they attempt to protect an ally. Why overwhelming odds doesn't work I don't know, 10 Mandalorians vs 1 Jedi = dead Jedi.

 

Examples:

Darth Bane was overwhelmed and incapacitated by a group of mercenaries and an Ikotchi assassin. He sensed the attack before it happened but still failed to deflect all their attacks, he also succumbed easily to the Ikotchi's poison (this was the second time Bane succumbed to poisons, the first almost and would have killed him)

 

In the Revan novel, Scourge beats 2 sith by targeting one viciously, as one tried to protect the other it left that one exposed to attack.

 

Savage Oppress was overwhelmed by a group of battle droids that he definitely saw coming. And we're talking about the B1 type here.

 

You may not have played the BH storyline, but at the end a bunch of Jedi Masters are killed by a grenade surprise attack, and the guy who threw it wasn't even trained in combat

 

P.S. Seeing as hiding minds was mentioned and described in KOTOR 2 - a canon source, it is a canon ability

 

Your right they aren't invincible, but how are you gonna have an unsuspecting Jedi? If they can sense an attack that is about to happen, then in theory they should be able to avoid it.

 

Sonic attacks could work yes, that was proven in EP 2 in the Arena battle with the Geonosions. Rockets....shouldn't because they can be caught and force thrown back this is shown in the BH storyline and even in the DLC Force Unleashed when Boba fires a rocket and Starkiller sends it right back to him. Cluster Rocket could work but its not like the jedi can't just use Force Speed to avoid it they won't stand there like morons.

 

Jedi are immune to poison, that is if they react in time to make a defense.

 

Again I never said Overwhelming Odds or Indirect Attacks couldn't work, what I am saying is that there are many variables to consider in them.

 

To the BH thing...once more, it was for plot purposes and the jedi were dumbed down.

 

This is all in THEORY here, if the jedi were written correctly then they shouldn't have any problems with an opponent.

 

This of course is just 1 on 1, I probably should have made that clear here because some seem to think that I am speaking of a group vs 1 jedi, when what I am saying here is of 1 vs 1 fight for not being clear on that I apologize.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Eightus]

Your right they aren't invincible, but how are you gonna have an unsuspecting Jedi? If they can sense an attack that is about to happen, then in theory they should be able to avoid it.

 

Sonic attacks could work yes, that was proven in EP 2 in the Arena battle with the Geonosions. Rockets....shouldn't because they can be caught and force thrown back this is shown in the BH storyline and even in the DLC Force Unleashed when Boba fires a rocket and Starkiller sends it right back to him. Cluster Rocket could work but its not like the jedi can't just use Force Speed to avoid it they won't stand there like morons.

 

Jedi are immune to poison, that is if they react in time to make a defense.

 

Again I never said Overwhelming Odds or Indirect Attacks couldn't work, what I am saying is that there are many variables to consider in them.

 

To the BH thing...once more, it was for plot purposes and the jedi were dumbed down.

 

This is all in THEORY here, if the jedi were written correctly then they shouldn't have any problems with an opponent.

 

This of course is just 1 on 1, I probably should have made that clear here because some seem to think that I am speaking of a group vs 1 jedi, when what I am saying here is of 1 vs 1 fight for not being clear on that I apologize.

 

So your arguments are that whenever a Jedi/Sith is killed(by a none Force user), that is either the result of bad writing or for a plot purpose? No offense there mate, but that is just plain ignorance. You see, fact is, that non-force sensitive users are known to be able to kill Force sensitive users and just because you dont like it doesn't make it bad writing or non-canon(unless you are George Lucas, which I am pretty sure you are not).

[Wolfninjajedi]

So your arguments are that whenever a Jedi/Sith is killed(by a none Force user), that is either the result of bad writing or for a plot purpose? No offense there mate, but that is just plain ignorance. You see, fact is, that non-force sensitive users are known to be able to kill Force sensitive users and just because you dont like it doesn't make it bad writing or non-canon(unless you are George Lucas, which I am pretty sure you are not).

 

Did I say that it was bad writing if a non-force user killed a jedi or sith? No I didn't, what I am saying here is that it should be extremely unlikely or next to impossible to do so 1 on 1 if each character is written as suppose to be.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Your right they aren't invincible, but how are you gonna have an unsuspecting Jedi? If they can sense an attack that is about to happen, then in theory they should be able to avoid it.

 

Sonic attacks could work yes, that was proven in EP 2 in the Arena battle with the Geonosions. Rockets....shouldn't because they can be caught and force thrown back this is shown in the BH storyline and even in the DLC Force Unleashed when Boba fires a rocket and Starkiller sends it right back to him. Cluster Rocket could work but its not like the jedi can't just use Force Speed to avoid it they won't stand there like morons.

 

Jedi are immune to poison, that is if they react in time to make a defense.

 

Again I never said Overwhelming Odds or Indirect Attacks couldn't work, what I am saying is that there are many variables to consider in them.

 

To the BH thing...once more, it was for plot purposes and the jedi were dumbed down.

 

This is all in THEORY here, if the jedi were written correctly then they shouldn't have any problems with an opponent.

 

This of course is just 1 on 1, I probably should have made that clear here because some seem to think that I am speaking of a group vs 1 jedi, when what I am saying here is of 1 vs 1 fight for not being clear on that I apologize.

1v1 depends on who the opponent is. HK-47 > Jedi and Revan assassin >(probably)> beats Jedi. Average Mandalorian does not however, but it is possible if he lays a good enough trap. Still, all I'm saying that with the right talent, HK's tactics can down a Jedi.

[Eightus]

Did I say that it was bad writing if a non-force user killed a jedi or sith? No I didn't, what I am saying here is that it should be extremely unlikely or next to impossible to do so 1 on 1 if each character is written as suppose to be.

 

Should it? You see this is your opinion just because you dont like it, doesn't mean that it should be done the way you want it to be done. In fact I have the completely opposite view, I like things just the way they are. Why should Jedi and Sith have all the spot light and be nearly invincible to non-force users? I simply dont see the logic in that.

[OldVengeance]

I'm gonna be honest, I often think the whole controversy is a little overblown. Sure Karen Traviss sounds like she wrote a lot of absurd stuff but I don't need to think of her or her work to think of Mandalorians. The Kotor games established a perfectly fair example of Mandalorian culture and capability. Many Jedi perished in the Mandalorian Wars, but they won decisively in the end. Jedi are not invincible, Mandalorians are effective warriors. Overall, Mandalorians can sometimes kill Jedi but usually not. That appears as about right, in my opinion. Edited December 10, 2012 by OldVengeance

[VigDiath]

I'm gonna be honest, I often think the controversy is a little overblown. Sure Karen Traviss sounds like she wrote a lot of absurd stuff but I don't need to think of her or her work to think of Mandalorians. The Kotor games established a perfectly fair example of Mandalorian culture and capability. Many Jedi perished in the Mandalorian Wars, but they won decisively in the end. Jedi are not invincible, Mandalorians are effective warriors. Overall, Mandalorians can sometimes kill Jedi but usually not.

 

I think this best sums up how I feel about it.

[LegendaryBlade]

Jedis are actually killed by non force users a lot more often than people tend to realize. Cad Bane and Boba Fett are two bounty hunters well known for fighting against and, on occasion, killing Jedi. Fett in particular fought Vader off twice. A jedi can feel the world around them and see just a moment in to the future, but it's the individuality jedi's skill that allows them to react to it.

 

According to HK in Kotor II the Jedi's power of sensing and feeling the world around them can be disrupted with specialized training; essentially their opponent must express cognitive disonance. Express lust when they are really hateful, or express happiness while they are sorrowful. He also says it helps to not plan at all, as spontaneous actions seem to limit a Jedi's ability. Personally, I would favor the scattergun fighting a jedi due to it's inability to be fully deflected; or a sniper rifle as it's stated that even a Jedi couldn't do anything about suddenly falling dead while walking down the street.

 

As HK put it: According to Revan it's non-force users who are actually best equipped to kill Jedi, not other force sensitive.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Should it? You see this is your opinion just because you dont like it, doesn't mean that it should be done the way you want it to be done. In fact I have the completely opposite view, I like things just the way they are. Why should Jedi and Sith have all the spot light and be nearly invincible to non-force users? I simply dont see the logic in that.

 

Its not really an opinion if Jedi/Sith have all this power in them, and can't use it to take down a non-force user. What sense does that make? But I know its not going to be written that way, because writers want to give everyone a chance but realistically. If there is someone who can beat you, just by a mere thought or a wave of their hand...then they shouldn't be or rather hardly be defeated by a non-force user.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Stormcloudx]

I cant even finish reading this thread for the amount of ridiculous jedi/sith exaggerations in this thread. NOT EVERY JEDI IS A MASTER OR HERO TYPE. your average jedi/sith is going to get his/her arse whooped every time if they dare go into a fight with some mandos wit the 'I HAVE THE FORCE" mentality. Yeah they'll have the force blown into them. Now if the mando were shown blowing away yodas and maces, lukes, etc..thats wrong.

 

 

 

P.S. force unelasehd was the worse thing to happen to the cannon...with his huge power exaggeration for the sake of coolness...***. Atleast in bounty hunter Jango taking on a jedi turned sith (that was on the road to master status) was a hard boss fight

Edited December 12, 2012 by Stormcloudx

[LegendaryBlade]

I cant even finish reading this thread for the amount of ridiculous jedi/sith exaggerations in this thread. NOT EVERY JEDI IS A MASTER OR HERO TYPE. your average jedi/sith is going to get his/her arse whooped every time if they dare go into a fight with some madnos wit the 'I HAVE THE FORCE" mentality. Yeah they'll have the force blown into them. Now if the mando were shown blowing away yodas and maces, lukes, etc..thats wrong.

 

 

 

P.S. force unelasehd was the worse thing to peahen to the cannon...with his huge power exaggeration for the sake of coolness...***. Atleast in bounty hunter Jango taking on a jedi turned sith (that was on the road to master status) was a hard boss fight

 

Happened before Force Unleashed. Jedi were first shown cutting through swaths of people in the prequels, which is part of the reason I dislike them. Canon ultimately reconciles this with "Droids are very dumb", but I think it left a lasting impact.

[Scathe]

Happened before Force Unleashed. Jedi were first shown cutting through swaths of people in the prequels, which is part of the reason I dislike them. Canon ultimately reconciles this with "Droids are very dumb", but I think it left a lasting impact.

 

The thing about the "Droids are very dumb" solution is that we don't actually see a lack of intelligence from then at the very beginning. In TPM (*shivers*) the droids actually seem to have some limited form of intelligence. Yes there was that whole scene in the hangar when Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan save the Queen's guard before grabbing the ship, but that felt more like comic relief then anything. Over the course of the next two movies the droids were severely dumbed down. Even their voices shifted to something a bit more child friendly.

 

Anyone remember Republic Commando SBD's? They had, what I think was, a really cool, deep, heavily modulated voice that fit with the overall theme of "These droids are bad *** and really difficult to kill". And then we get the stupid "That nothin'" SBD's in Episode 3.

[Beniboybling]

The thing about the "Droids are very dumb" solution is that we don't actually see a lack of intelligence from then at the very beginning. In TPM (*shivers*) the droids actually seem to have some limited form of intelligence. Yes there was that whole scene in the hangar when Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan save the Queen's guard before grabbing the ship, but that felt more like comic relief then anything. Over the course of the next two movies the droids were severely dumbed down. Even their voices shifted to something a bit more child friendly.

 

Anyone remember Republic Commando SBD's? They had, what I think was, a really cool, deep, heavily modulated voice that fit with the overall theme of "These droids are bad *** and really difficult to kill". And then we get the stupid "That nothin'" SBD's in Episode 3.

B1 droids are pretty dumb, no where are the displayed to be clever. And SBD's aren't that much smarter, there just more powerful. But I don't think they where shown to be weak in Ep3 - sure they got outsmarted by r2-d2 but that guys a genius The only other time they appeared was with Count Dooku, but Anakin and Obi-Wan were some of the toughest Jedi of the Order to no surprises there. But I agree, the representation of droids is inconsistent from source to source. What I think have remained cool and consistent are magnaguards, those guys have always been dangerous.

[Eightus]

Its not really an opinion if Jedi/Sith have all this power in them, and can't use it to take down a non-force user. What sense does that make? But I know its not going to be written that way, because writers want to give everyone a chance but realistically. If there is someone who can beat you, just by a mere thought or a wave of their hand...then they shouldn't be or rather hardly be defeated by a non-force user.

 

But it is just your opinion, nothing more nothing less. An opinion which clashes directly with pretty much every canon source regarding this subject. There are so many examples of non-force sensitive users taking down Jedi/Sith that if I start counting them I will get a headache. Not only that but you presume that every Jedi is on the same level with Yoda/Luke/Mace/Obi. From what I can see this thread is about average Jedi vs average Mando. Moreover, as someone else already mentioned Force sensitive users are not just born with all of those super abilities that you are stating, they have to learn them. And some of them never do.

 

I am not saying that Mandos should own Jedi/Sith with ease, what I am saying is that the average Mando going against the average Jedi has pretty good chances of coming out the winner.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Eightus

[Stormcloudx]

But it is just your opinion, nothing more nothing less. An opinion which clashes directly with pretty much every canon source regarding this subject. There are so many examples of non-force sensitive users taking down Jedi/Sith that if I start counting them I will get a headache. Not only that but you presume that every Jedi is on the same level with Yoda/Luke/Mace/Obi. From what I can see this thread is about average Jedi vs average Mando. Moreover, as someone else already mentioned Force sensitive users are not just born with all of those super abilities that you are stating, they have to learn them. And some of them never do.

 

I am not saying that Mandos should own Jedi/Sith with ease, what I am saying is that the average Mando going against the average Jedi has pretty good chances of coming out the winner.

 

Bravo^

[Lagboot]

MANDALORIANS are the true heros of the Star Wars Universe. Sith and Jedi are just weakling cowards hiding behind their abilities to use the "Force" to murder normal people. (Yes a Mandalor w/o armor could still take them)

Any Mandalor could take any member of both factions if the Force wasn't used.

But my real point is that all of this arguing here is mute to the fact that there is only a handful of Jedi or Sith that have the ability to harness the full potential of the Force. Sure some of the many thousands of trained Jedi/Sith use certain aspects of the Force to their fullest but cannot use the rest of it fully. Thus Mandalorians who train in all aspects of combat, have superior armor, tactics, and are faster and quicker are a serious threat.

 

Mandalorians are not only Better sentient beings for not exploiting power and greed in the force, they accept their fate and are superior because they actually have to fear death. When you fear death you have the advantage. Since Jedi are taught they are superior and shouldn't fear death, they lose the edge that Mandalorians have in a fight.

 

Jedi and Sith are just the trash of the universe. If they didn't exist...There would have been piece long ago. And everyone would look cool like a Mandalorian too.